Apr 18 2011 04:34 AM
Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season?
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How many games will K-Rod finish next season?
| batmagadanleadoff Nov 02 2010 12:12 PM |
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How many games will K-Rod finish next season? He needs to finish 55 games for his 2012 $17.5M contract to vest. The Mets have a vested interest in preventing this, not only because it makes financial sense to them, but also to increase their chances of trading him. What team in their right mind would trade for K-Rod if he's on pace for 55 finishes?
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| metirish Nov 02 2010 12:13 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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51
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| Vic Sage Nov 02 2010 12:35 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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you can't collude with yourself.
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| Vic Sage Nov 02 2010 12:36 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Sandy should let him get no further than 54... release him, if necessary.
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| Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2010 12:39 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It really could be that simple. What could the Mets be accused of? Releasing a player because they don't want to have to pay him? That's totally legitimate.
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| Ceetar Nov 02 2010 12:40 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It depends on how big a deal the Mets consider it, and if they're in it.
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| batmagadanleadoff Nov 02 2010 12:46 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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You expectin' a woman manager?
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| metsguyinmichigan Nov 02 2010 12:50 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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63
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| HahnSolo Nov 02 2010 01:06 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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He finished how many games this year, 46? And that was in an injury shortened year where there were not that many save opportunities. If the Mets expect to be decent next year, then they can expect to have plenty of opportunities to save games, meaning I expect KRod to be over the 55 games finished mark.
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| G-Fafif Nov 02 2010 01:07 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The Cult of the Closer received quite a boost from the performance (in more ways than one) of Brian Wilson in this World Series.
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| Centerfield Nov 02 2010 02:50 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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What does finishing a game mean?
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| Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2010 03:03 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Yes, I'm pretty sure that it means he's the last pitcher for the Mets. Each game has two finishing pitchers, just like it has two starting pitchers.
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| TheOldMole Nov 02 2010 05:06 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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What does vesting mean?
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| Edgy DC Nov 02 2010 08:20 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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How he can redeem himself is giving a ton of money to the Fred Wilpon Home for Abused Elders and makes sure his wifeling and her father live like royalty ever after without ever having to see him again.
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| batmagadanleadoff Nov 05 2010 08:37 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It's the act of putting on a sleeveless garment. Or, in this context, the clause in K-Rod's contract that entitles him to receive $17.5M as compensation for the 2012 season will have vested when he reaches 55 "finishes" for the 2011 season. The Mets obligation to pay K-Rod $17.5M in 2012 is conditional, and predicated on the number of games K-Rod finishes. If K-Rod finishes less than 55 games in 2011, the clause will not have vested and the Mets would not be obligated to pay him $17.5M in 2012. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/vest.html
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 30 2011 08:47 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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In light of yesterday's news, I'm doubling down on the under 55 on this one.
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| Willets Point Jan 30 2011 09:01 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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0
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| Ceetar Jan 30 2011 10:06 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I don't think Frankie's as lazy as Meche.
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| Gwreck Jan 30 2011 10:32 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That's a strange definition of "lazy" that you've got there.
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| Ceetar Jan 30 2011 05:00 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Nah, he said himself his heart wasn't in it to rehab
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| Edgy DC Jan 30 2011 05:14 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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If I'm lazy, I think $12 million to get my shoulder repaired and rehabbing it with just enough wholeheartedness to be healthy enough to play after my contract runs out --- well, that's easy money for my lazy self.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 30 2011 06:02 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Yeah, no.
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| Edgy DC Jan 30 2011 06:52 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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"That's the best darn douchebag I've ever met. I'm proud he's dating my daughter. I'm proud he's pitching for my tea... Ow, stop hitting me, you stupid douchebag!"
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| Fman99 Jan 30 2011 07:45 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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54 games and then he gets mysteriously beaten in an alley in Yonkers. And I am conveniently 200 miles away, with relatives, and an airtight alibi.
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| Gwreck Jan 30 2011 08:25 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That's not what he said. The accurate quote is "If it’s not in my heart to keep playing, to keep pushing to pitch, I had to do what I had to do." I guess you can spin that as "laziness" but it's a strange definition, particularly when considering -- as he so clearly did -- both the money he had already made and the likelihood (ie. low) of him ever being an effective major league pitcher again.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 30 2011 09:42 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Que?
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 30 2011 10:15 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Jamon con huevos. La cucaracha. ¿Que que?
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 30 2011 11:22 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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"Yesterday's news?" About Rocky Ball-Throwa?
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 31 2011 02:04 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Yesterday's news about Fred Will-Ponzi.
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| smg58 Jan 31 2011 08:39 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It depends on how well the Mets are doing. I don't see anybody forcing him out of the closer's role like Benitez did to Franco in 99, although I'm hoping to be wrong. Otherwise, sabotaging a pennant run just to keep a contract from vesting would be a tough sell to the fans regardless of what the union thinks.
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| attgig Jan 31 2011 09:24 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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since krod became a permanent closer, he's averaged finishing 59 games including only finishing 46 games last year. It would take a trade or an injury for him not to get to 55.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 05 2011 09:20 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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How will the Mets handle Francisco Rodriguez this season?
OE: How do you center text here? I tried framing the desired text in "[center][/center]". That didn't work.
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| Ceetar Feb 05 2011 10:32 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Given that the usage of a player is not in the contract, I have yet to hear anything about how the players association would have a leg to stand on, were the Mets to decide to use him abnormally.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 06 2011 06:08 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Make him a starter.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2011 06:21 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Given the way he's been used for both his entire career and to-date in his time with the NYM, to suddenly use him in a manner which looks solely designed so as to avoid a contract clause reached in good faith I'd say they would have a leg on which to stand. I'd also say that given the track record of the owners vs players in legal matters that they'd have more than a good chance at winning that argument.
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| Ceetar Feb 06 2011 09:06 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Any precedent? Does Beltran have a leg to stand on if they move him to Right? Perez if/when they made him a reliever? Posada because they made him a DH? They won't win that argument. The Mets simply say "We used our players in a way that gave us the best chance to win" they can site rest days, or work for other pitchers, or keeping him fresh for a 'big' series. But contracts do not stipulate role. (I'd like if 'games finished/started' weren't part of the equation either. ) The language does not stipulate (as far as I know anyway, but I'm pretty sure this is the case) "Francisco will be used as the primary game finisher, being the first choice of the Mets in at least 90% of the opportunities"
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2011 09:30 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Moving Beltran to RF, or Ollie to the pen, or most other moves aren't ones designed specifically and solely to get out from triggering a contract clause the way this one clearly would be.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 06 2011 09:52 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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They aren't the same "they." New manager. New front office. No applicable precedent. No?
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2011 10:15 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think it will be very difficult for anyone to think that a sudden shift after nearly a decade of All-Star caliber performance in essentially the only role he's ever filled and clearly the one he was signed for wasn't done for any reason other than to intentionally make him fall short of his contract trigger. When confronted by such a move the remedy at the union's disposal is an arbitration process that exists for the purpose of deciding whether such moves violate the spirit of the contract even if not the actual wording.
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| Ashie62 Feb 06 2011 11:07 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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30 and all by July 31, 2011
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| Edgy DC Feb 06 2011 11:14 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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While I understand that, nobody's responded to the notion that this is almost exactly what they did with Alex Cora --- releasing him not because they had a better player, but clearly to dodge the vest.
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| Ceetar Feb 06 2011 11:21 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Also, keeping him out of games (if it's via innings reduction) could affect his type A status and cost the Mets a first round pick. My hope is the option vests in early August so that if the Mets do fall out of it for real, there's no need to talk about it.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 06 2011 11:54 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Cora never filed a grievance and so his release by the Mets right before his option would've vested was never challenged. But I think that a team should be allowed to make moves that are motivated primarily --even solely-- to manage payroll. Isn't managing payroll a legitimate team function? Couldn't a team argue credibly that managing payroll wisely correlates to fielding a winning team? I'm sure we had this K-Rod discussion in another thread. I think that FK's position is putting this issue on a dangerous and slippery slope, and that an arbitrator should never question anything that the team can colorably justify as tactics and strategy. Otherwise .... what next? Will a player win a grievance because he was 10 Plate Appearances short of earning a large performance bonus on the theory that he was always a #3 or clean-up hitter but that his new team batted him fifth all season? Would a player even need a bonus clause in his contract to file a grievance based on how the team used him? How would the hypothetical K-Rod grievance play out in FK's courtroom? The arbitrator might ask the Mets why, for example, Parnell and not K-Rod pitched the 9th inning on such and such a date. And the Mets might respond that Parnell had better stuff on that date. Then what? Do you really want the arbitrator to be second-guessing that decision? Will teams be burdened with the responsibility to maintain contemporaneous notes of the playing conditions in anticipation of these types of future litigations? Should a player have any right to determine how the team uses him?
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2011 12:22 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Cora was an aging player and the 25th man (or close to it) on the roster; guys like that get released all the time. And while he certainly could have taken his case to a grievance I suspect he was quite possibly advised that the odds on that one were long.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 06 2011 12:33 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 06 2011 12:38 PM |
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Vest or no, it actually behooves teams-- if not players and agents-- to use their best guys in high-leverage spots, rather than managing "to the save." Especially considering the fact that he's by far their best reliever... doesn't it make more sense to use him where he's more impactful?
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 06 2011 12:38 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The Mets don't have to resort to the drastic remedy of using an effective K-Rod as a mop-up man in order to scuttle the vesting option. That's an extreme and unrealistic scenario. The other question you raise though, is whether a player with a performance based bonus clause suddenly inherits the right to question --in a courtroom-- how his team used him.
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| Ashie62 Feb 06 2011 12:38 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Krod will not be working in the 8th inning for the Mets often if at all. If he does on a consistent basis and doesn't vest I'm confident the union can has a strong case on Arod's behalf.
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| Ashie62 Feb 06 2011 12:39 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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You can question anything in a courtroom.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 06 2011 12:41 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Strong? Sure. I'm certain they can.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 06 2011 12:41 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Exactly. Also, the Mets could limit his three run save chances, and use him on a shorter leash in save situations.
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| Gwreck Feb 06 2011 12:46 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think LWFS' strategy for K-Rod usage is both a smart baseball decision and a winning argument should a grievance be filed, should they decide to do so for the entire season. New manager, new GM, new strategy for the year would should -- even if the Mets knew they would be saving bucks by doing so -- that their strategy was a good-faith one designed to win ballgames and not to simply deny a player a chance at an incentive.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 06 2011 12:55 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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So, alternatively, Collins could go passive-aggressive ultra-Manuel on him, and maybe ask him to help tote heavy bags of fertilizer back and forth to/from the bullpen besides.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2011 01:45 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Sure he does - at least when the club "decision" is not one that looks to be dictated by on-field results. Contract clauses like these don't just suddenly rise up out of nowhere, they're the result of negotiations and compromises which, in this case, could have gone something like this: - player wants four years guaranteed, team is reluctant to give that. So they offer a deal where they effectively say that if said player is still healthy and closing games (which is the role for which they got him) a fourth year will kick in and do so at a price that will effectively raise the per/year value of the deal to something more in line with what the player was asking for in the first place -- $11+mil/yr becomes closer to $13/per is/when the option kicks in. But if a club suddenly changes his role with no performance decline to indicate it's warranted then it makes it look like the club agreed to the option in bad faith which is exactly what the grievance process is there to address. And, again, this all different from saying that the arbiter is there to pass judgement on everyday managerial policy. If you want to argue that teams should more often break away from the policy and use the nominal closer in non-closing but still important situations then I'm already ahead of you on that line.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 06 2011 02:18 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'd have the player assume the entire risk of being able to make his bonuses. I believe that how a team decides to use its players is beyond reproach. I don't know that team sports could function effectively if the players had final say, or any say even, in how they were used. And I would accept as valid, a team's use of a player that was motivated entirely to save money. (Though I wouldn't want to be the team that tested that theory). Every game that K-Rod finishes is a game that Parnell doesn't finish. Does Parnell have a grievance if he doesn't finish X number of games because the finishes went to K-Rod instead? Parnell doesn't have a bonus in his contract based on the number of games he finishes, but he could argue that more saves might've led to more advertising/sponsorship contracts. Do the Mets owe K-Rod a greater duty tham they owe Parnell ... preferential treatment ... to be the last pitcher standing in a game? (Me -- I'm saying that the team owes the player nothing.) K-Rod was a free agent. If he didn't like the guaranteed portion of whatever the Mets were offering, he had the option of negotiating elsewhere. If the law was the way you'd like it to be and I owned a team, I'd never offer any player performance based bonuses.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2011 02:48 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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And the Mets were just as free to walk away from the talks too. Except that they didn't, they offered him a 4th year option as a way to compromise between 3 and 4 and, having done that, implied that the player had a reasonable expectation that he'd have a shot to earn that 4th year -- not a guarantee, not veto power over how he's used, but a reasonable shot (lawyers make their rent arguing about terms like "reasonable" "good faith", etc.). And (four about the 4th time now) if the use of KRod suddenly goes from being used to finish games almost every time to never finishing games just as a clause based on finishing games is about to kick in then he has a definite claim to say that the deck was stacked against him even though he continued to do the job just as well as always. The Parnell and batting order examples you keep throwing in here as analogies are totally unconnected because none of them involve pre-existing and mutually agreed-upon conditions.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 06 2011 03:09 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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No way. The number of plate appearances a player accumulates correlates both highly and positively to where he bats in the batting order. There is no question but that, all other things being equal, a player who bats fifth will have less plate appearances than a player who bats third or fourth. If you're saying that a player with a plate appearances based bonus wasn't promised a certain number of plate appearances by his team, then couldn't you say, just the same, that the Mets didn't promise K-Rod that he'd finish enough games for his bonus to vest? Besides, if this is all supposed to be a preordained entitlement inuring to K-Rod, than why is the bonus money conditional in the first place? The Mets agreed to pay K-Rod's bonuses only if he met certain conditions. They didn't guarantee to enable K-Rod to meet those conditions. We're starting to go in circles here, a little bit. I argue that the player should assume the whole risk of making his performance based bonuses and you say that the team bears some of that risk by exposing itself to the possibility of damages if the player fails to make those bonuses.
This is no jump at all. If this hypothetical hearing were ever to play out in real life, the Mets would defend their position by making legal arguments, by raising policy issues, and perhaps, most importantly, by making factual arguments to justify their use of K-Rod. Whether he likes it or not, the arbitrator would be forced to analyze the case on a game by game micro level basis because that would be part of the Mets defense. The arbitrator would be placed in the unfortunate (ridiculous, sez me) position of having to second guess and perhaps overrule the teams' in game decisions.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2011 08:50 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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If a starting and healthy and effective everyday player has a plate appearance clause and the team suddenly benches him right as he's on the verge of meeting the threshold THEN THIS is an equivalent argument because that would (fifth or six time now for this one) BE SEEN AS SOMETHING DONE FOR NO OTHER REASON BUT TO KEEP THE PLAYER FROM REACHING THE CONTRACT TRIGGER. That is VERY DIFFERENT THAN requiring a judge to micro-analyze managerial strategy. A mere lineup change of a couple of spots which may result in a year-long difference of a few dozen PAs is something which an arbiter would be very unlikely to see as strictly a means to slip out of a contract clause and therefore not nearly as likely to be the basis of a grievance. See the difference?
And the reason we're going around in circles is because, instead of reading what I'm actually saying, you're making up vastly different scenarios and calling them equal. Just because lawsuits can and are used for frivolous purposes isn't a reason to outlaw lawsuits. I'm done here.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 06 2011 09:18 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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There's no need to get all huffy and snippy about this. Before you create a rule, you should first test the rule to see how it works in other situations. I might wake up on a rainy Wednesday morning, and declare that it rains on Wednesdays only. Somebody else might want to test my rule by observing the weather on other days of the week, no? There's nothing wrong about applying your rules to other examples to see how they would play out.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 06 2011 09:39 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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BTW, I thought that my Parnell hypothetical was a good way to test your rule. A ruling might become precedent, and after that, you can be sure that the rule will be tested by players who'll want to extend the scope of the rule. The next player that files a grievance in connection with how his team used him will not come to court with the same set of facts and circumstances that the hypothetical K-Rod did.
By mutually agreed conditions, do you mean the conditional bonus clause in K-Rod's contract? And if so, does that mean that you would deny Parnell's hypothetical grievance because he had no performance bonus clause in his contract? I don't know what you mean by pre-existing.
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| The Second Spitter Feb 07 2011 02:50 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 07 2011 04:25 AM |
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For the record, if Frankie did have a cause of action, it would be on the grounds of "constructive dismissal".
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| duan Feb 07 2011 03:29 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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just a point of reference if K-Rod gives up the winning run does that make it that he 'finishes' the game?
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| The Second Spitter Feb 07 2011 03:54 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That is correct.
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| Ceetar Feb 07 2011 07:02 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Who knows how really ridiculous it is? The Mets wanted a closer. Frankie may have been pushing for a 'highest paid closer' tag, which for some reason seems to be a thing. (Look at C.C's contract. conspiracy aside: I wonder if they didn't offer Lee the extra bit because it would've eclipsed CC and maybe they thought he'd leave next year?)
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| Edgy DC Feb 07 2011 07:10 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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They don't get released at 11:00 the night before triggering a vesting option, when the guy replacing him is hitting .212 / 297 / .250 // .547, more or less the same as him. That was a deliberate option dodge and everybody knows it, which suggests that using a player in a manner so as to dodge an option isn't such an established rule as all that.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 07 2011 08:06 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Cora's vesting option was due to kick in if/when he appeared in 80 games. Instead, he was released on Aug 7 (season 68% complete) having appeared in 62 of the 80 games needed (77%). So while he looked to be on his way to reaching that number (though certainly not assured of it) that's hardly the same thing as claiming he was dumped on "11:00 on the night before".
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| Edgy DC Feb 07 2011 08:19 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think it's different, certainly. I think what the Cora case is illustrative of is to suggest that a team doesn't have an obligation to deliver a player oppurtunities to meet his vesting level, something that I think hasn't been established.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 07 2011 09:50 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That's how I see it. Otherwise, what's the point of making the bonus conditional in the first place? I think that the "if" in the contract ("if" K-Rod finishes x number of games) should also encompass the opportunity --- "if" K-Rod finishes X number of games and "if" the team affords K-Rod the opportunity to finish X number of games, which may be given solely at the team's discretion. The team has to have full autonomy, free of interference and influence from its players and free of worry and risk of incurring monetary damages when it determines lineups, playing time and strategies. It's one thing for Jeff Francoeur to politic for more playing time behind the scenes, but his gripes should never amount to a valid legal cause of action or grievance against his team, no matter how logical his case for playing time might be. Otherwise, you'll eventually have a player filing a grievance because he was asked to sac bunt on his last AB and missed his HR bonus by one HR.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 07 2011 01:48 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'd rule that K-Rod was signed to be used as the Mets saw fit. Are you saying that K-Rod has to finish games even if Parnell emerges as a better pitcher? Or what if Parnell is as good as K-Rod? Or almost as good as K-Rod? Or what if the Mets had a good faith but mistaken belief that Parnell was the better pitcher? Do you think that it's healthy for an arbitrator to decide how good Parnell had to have been for the Mets to have used him as the closer without incurring penalties? The Mets have to be able to make in game decisions free of oversight from an arbitrator, and any ruling on this hypothetical K-Rod grievance should preserve that principle.
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| smg58 Feb 07 2011 02:06 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It was not clear that, once the bidding got to three years at over $10M per, anybody else was even competing for his services.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 07 2011 02:35 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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There's a difference between optimism and willful ignorance. If you really believe the above, then you're due for a name change. 13 million on the open market-- added to, say, what's already been spent on the back end of the rotation-- gets the team a Peavy/Carpenter/Lackey/Oswalt-sized Band Aid. In-season, it nets an enterprising GM something like a Cliff Lee or a Halladay at reduced cost. It's the difference between starting shortstop Jose Reyes and starting shortstop Justin Turner. It's valuable.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 07 2011 02:52 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It was a stupid, unimaginative, dangerous deal the day they made it.
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| Ceetar Feb 07 2011 04:59 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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They already have a ton coming off the books. I haven't heard anything remotely related to not wanting to have a closer and buck that trend, so they're very likely going to put a fair portion of it back into the same position. I don't want them winging money at guys just to spend money. Sandy's already on record saying he'd like not to spend all the money coming off anyway, meaning he, as of right now, suspects he'll be able to fill the holes on the teams without maxing out the budget. There is no evidence that the extra money on a one year deal for an elite relief pitcher is going to prevent anything, and that money would likely be reinvested in a way that actually raises the budget for 2013 and 2014. In essence, the 17.5 million is something that we can bank on to be available for 2013 to fix problems that arise before then. Regardless, barring anything bad happening(i.e. losing games, losing our best relief pitcher to injury) his option is going to vest. So there isn't really reason to get worked up about it. There are certainly scenarios where his usage would be better for the team, but they're far fetched. He's going to be used primarily in a closers role. Anything else is rooting against the team and I don't care what he's making, and Terry better not either. also, just because we don't know who else may have been offering anything, doesn't mean no one was. Reporters always say no one else is interested when they might mean thety don't know of anyone else interested. some teams and offers and agents are more secretive. Some never make an official offer but keep negotiations open.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 07 2011 09:18 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 08 2011 06:03 AM |
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On this point, I agree.
And I would say-- granted, without much more by way of evidence; Alderson's not much for answering hypotheticals in great detail-- that it's highly unlikely. The last two contracts the Mets have given closers have burned them; Ricciardi-- their major-league talent scout-- had the same experience in Toronto. With guys like Parnell and others (Harvey?) lurking in the minors, I feel somewhat comfortable that they're not going down the same route.
Again, I disagree. If this team isn't gon' win, we gon' shine. They shall know us by the trail of ice, bitchezzzzzz. BULEEDAT.
So... you're saying... in this frugal environment, an environment crafted to maintain maximum "payroll flexibility"... that 13 million is relatively meaningless? Are you sure you're arguing for YOUR point here?
I seriously have no idea what you're trying to say here. I'm not sure-- my comprehension isn't what it once was, in my reading prime-- but I think that's on your end.
"So lie back, dear, open wide, and think of Flushing." Sadly, you may be right about the vest. It would be kind of crappy, though... for the reasons that virtually everyone else has spelled out here and more or less agreed on as points granted. (See: "payroll flexibility.")
Not necessarily, dud-- Holy shit. You're planning to murder Terry Collins, aren't you?
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| Edgy DC Feb 07 2011 09:33 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I certainly don't expect things to change, but I disagree about the pointlessness of discussing it. Hashing out points in (semi-)public fora like this gain them ever greater cultureal currency until that currency helps tip the scales for those in authority.
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| The Second Spitter Feb 08 2011 12:50 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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In my view, in order to give efficacy to a vesting option, there must be an implied duty to act in good faith. Otherwise, a vesting option is, in substance, indistinguishable from a unilateral (club) option. Exercising a vesting option in good faith is realization on the criteria it sets-out (performance, health, etc). Of course, an arbitrator will not dwell whether or not Parnell is a better pitcher. The question of whether the Mets acted in good faith should be adjudged on the overall course of conduct of the Mets over the relevant period. In the Frank Thomas/Blue Jays grievance, it was much easier for the Blue Jays adduce bona fide reasons for benching Thomas, than it was for Thomas to prove that had acted in bad faith. It is unlikely an arbitrator could have questioned this, given Thomas' circumstances and the timing of his release.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 08 2011 01:48 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I agree that the team ought to act in good faith. But what is good faith? The devil's in the details. Keep in mind that what might constitute bad faith in labor relations in one industry may not necessarily constitute bad faith in the unique world of Major League baseball.
I would simplify this type of grievance by ruling that the team is under no obligation whatsoever to enable the player to reach his performance bonuses, and that to the extent that the team does afford the player the opportunity, the team does so voluntarily and at its sole discretion.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 08 2011 05:31 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'd guess that now that Obama's appointed those Freedom-Hating Communists* to the NLRB, it'll be tougher for the club to prove avoiding the option was "good faith."
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| Vic Sage Feb 08 2011 01:30 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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there may be, quite literally, a ton of scholarly research and analysis on the inefficacy of limiting your best reliever to the last inning, instead of using him in the highest leverage late-inning situations as they arise. whether the new Met management team subscribes to this philosophy is currently unknown but is quite likely, given that Alderson is seen as the granddaddy of the "moneyball" gm movement, which included his Lieutenants DePodesta and Ricciardi.
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| metsmarathon Feb 08 2011 01:55 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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keep poking the angry bear to get him kicked out of the zoo. i like it.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 08 2011 02:02 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Well, that's kind of a side effect-cum-failsafe.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 08 2011 02:09 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That's the logical solution. But what are your thoughts on whether a team should even have to justify in the first place, to an arbitrator, the playing time it allocates to a grieving player?
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| metirish Feb 08 2011 02:13 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Rodriguez will tell you he actually pitched nearly 500 innings last season Manuel had him up so often.
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| Vic Sage Feb 08 2011 02:39 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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i disagree with your premise. I don't think an arbitrator would require a team to justify its playing time per se, but only as a factor in determining whether the intent of the contract's option provision was frustrated by subsequent bad faith practices by the Mets. My point is simply that (1) its not "bad faith" to engage in baseball decisions that increase your team's chance of winning, and (2) the possiblity that this could be a strategy for a "closer's" use was known at the time the contract was entered into, and should have been known by the parties, and was forseeable, so F-Rod bears the risk that the Mets might subsequently adapt such a strategy. If he wanted to negotiate a clause for "appearances" instead of games finished", he was able to do so (and Omar probably would've agreed, since he was stupid enough to agree to the clause in the first place), and would've been protected. He didn't do that. The Mets are under no obligation to renegotiate his deal to protect him from his own agent's ineptitude.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 08 2011 03:30 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'm not sure that you answered my question. Or maybe you did and I missed it. So let me break down your answer and try again.
Agreed. There's no question but that employing winning strategies cannot be reconciled with "bad faith" and should trump a player's right to accumulate individual statistics. The team's paramount goal is to win games. I need no convincing here. Besides, we already had a lengthy thread on relief pitcher usage where the forum consensus was that using your best relief pitchers in high leverage situations is tactically preferable to a rigid and virtually inflexible rule that prevents the team's best reliever(s) from entering a game before the 9th inning. I can't find that thread, but I remember posting an image of a 1972 Sporting News cover featuring McGraw and Frisella sitting in the Mets old golf/bullpen cart. But what if the facts were that K-Rod was used in low-leverage situations? Or that K-Rod's appearances were micro-managed subtly so, mainly so that his bonus wouldn't vest? I'm not talking about K-Rod averaging a dozen appearances or so per month during the first half of the season and then dropping precipitously. What if K-Rod was managed so that a chart of his appearances would be smooth? These are mostly academic exercises, because the Mets need to make money, and need to win to make money, and didn't invest millions of dollars in K-Rod*, to use him as a middle inning mop-up man in lost causes. So it's unrealistic that the Mets would waste an effective K-Rod so long as the Mets are in contention. But my question is, what if they did? *Putting aside the soundness of that deal. For K-Rod to be worth $17.5M/season, he'd have to be the best reliever in baseball. And hit 25 HR's.
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| Vic Sage Feb 08 2011 09:25 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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baseball salary arbitrations are loaded with discussions of a player's use, and teams justifying their usage and denigrating the player, all in order to keep salary low -- and players are making arguments to these same arbitrators about their relative value. Their agents create the equivalent of private placement memoranda for these arbitrators, who are no more qualified to assess these matters than an arbitrator hearing the theoretical grievance F-Rod would make in this situation.
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 09 2011 07:09 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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You're right to write that an arbitrator would be qualified to hear K-Rod's hypothetical grievance. I should've chosen my words more carefully, because I know this to be true. Matrimonial judges decide divorce cases even though some of them never married. And a judge that never changed a flat tire in his life and wouldn't know where to pour the antifreeze gets to decide a $20M products liability suit that turns on the soundness of an automobile engine, etc., etc., etc. We obviously disagree on what the outcome of that grievance would be. I believe that a team should have the right to allocate playing time as it sees fit, without any outside oversight, for reasons I've already stated.
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| Vic Sage Feb 17 2011 09:23 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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someone's been reading my posts...
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| batmagadanleadoff Feb 22 2011 05:44 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Union will monitor Mets' use of K-Rod with option pending
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/metsblog/ ... z1v50ij3eI
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| Benjamin Grimm Feb 22 2011 06:02 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I read something today that indicates that even if Frankie finishes his 55 games, if he's on the DL during the last 30 days of the season, the contract won't vest.
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| Ceetar Feb 22 2011 06:30 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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He has to be 'declared healthy' by doctors. I believe this means even if he exits the last game healthy and beats up someone and breaks his thumb he wouldn't vest
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| Benjamin Grimm Mar 03 2011 08:54 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I was wondering, can the Mets just release Frankie after his 54th finish? (Their status in the pennant race may make that impractical, so let's put that issue aside.)
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| Edgy DC Mar 03 2011 09:04 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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They would be on the hook for the remaining terms of the contract, but they wouldn't pick him up.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 03 2011 09:06 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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You know that my opinion on this issue is with ownership. I'd think that managing payroll is a legitimate business purpose, and should qualify as grounds for cutting K-Rod right before his option were to vest.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 03 2011 09:38 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Assuming Grimm's hypothetical scenario plays out, what team would want to sign K-Rod, where signing K-Rod virtually guarantees a $17.5M contract for 2012?
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| Edgy DC Mar 03 2011 09:40 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Agreed here. But as long as no team is willing to make that argument, each case in which they support the player's alleged rights to pursue his vesting numbers become precdent in favor of the players, with Cora a rare counterprecedent. The one that drove me mad was Pedro Astacio. Valentine pitched him loyally every fifth day with the guy's arm falling off, only to trigger a vesting option that led to another season --- one in which Astacio gave the team 36 2/3 innings and a 7.36 ERA for $7 million.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 03 2011 09:51 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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You raise a question about baseball's arbitration procedure that' always interested me, but that I admit to not knowing the answer. In baseball --- what counts as precedent? In the real world, a lower court is usually bound by the higher courts' rulings, but not by a court of equal jurisdiction. MLB may operate differently, but applying real-world dynamics to MLB's grievance process, the rulings from an earlier arbitrator of equal or coordinate jurisdiction, no matter how sound or persuasive, shouldn't bind the next arbitrator that is confronted with the same or similar issue. So I always wondered if there is an appeals process in MLB available to the losing side in a grievance -- an opportunity for a higher court or panel of arbitrators to review the lower decision. I would assume that there has to be, but I don't know for sure. Otherwise, MLB would be bound by the incorrect or flawed or unreasonable decision of the first arbitrator that gets to decide the issue.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 03 2011 09:57 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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On second thought, I would assume that ultimately, the losing side would have the opportunity to have a Court of law review the issue after the arbitration procedure has been exhausted. That's how Curt Flood's case progressed. I should just google this to be sure. It should be in MLB's CBA, but I'm feeling lazy right now.
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| metsmarathon Mar 03 2011 12:06 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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if he were released and signed somewhere new, the new team would surely not be held to the vesting option as it is not part of their contract. at least, i can't imagine a scenario where that would not hold true.
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| Benjamin Grimm Mar 03 2011 12:09 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Well... if they're responsible for the vesting even if game 55 comes with another team, then there would be no point at all to releasing him. They'd have to pay him $17.5 million to pitch for someone else.
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| Vic Sage Mar 03 2011 12:48 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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without having read either the contract, the CBA, or precedents on the issue, i think:
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| The Second Spitter Mar 04 2011 07:38 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Article 7(b)(2) of the Uniform Player Contract. It says something like "if in the opinion of management" a player fails to exhibit sufficient skill blah, blah, blah. It's a low threshold but I'm skeptical they can apply it to somebody like Frankie if he's only blown say 2 saves by June.
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| Benjamin Grimm Mar 04 2011 07:42 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Does the definition of "sufficient" include salary as a factor?
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| The Second Spitter Mar 04 2011 07:47 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I doubt it unfortunately. It's sufficient skill to maintain his position on the roster, or something similar.
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| The Second Spitter Mar 05 2011 04:09 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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There was an article in the SABR circular in the late 90's comprehensively analysing vesting options, including the duties and obligations of ballclubs, in relation to them. I'll take a squiz to see if I can find it, but can you post your articles so I'm not looking for the same thing? . I also recall an article in SI circa 1992.
Flood's case was an anti-trust case -- it could not have possibly originated from the arbitration procedure. Also I'm fairly sure if you agree to arbitration in the US you lose grounds for substantive judicial review. The only appeal you make to a Court is on procedural grounds.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 07:27 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 05 2011 07:29 AM |
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Of course it could have. MLB's rules back then, could have required that all grievances be initially arbitrated through a procedure designed by MLB, before the losing side (in that case, Flood, obviously) proceeds to a Court of Law. To this day, labor agreements in many industries routinely obligate the worker to arbitrate before trying his or her case in a court of law. As to the specifics of the Flood case, I assumed that he arbitrated (and lost) before he took his case to the Federal courts. If Flood didn't first arbitrate, then it was because he didn't have to, not because he couldn't. I'll look it up to see what actually happened, but the idea that it was not possible for Flood to lose in arbitration as a prerequisite to litigating in the US courts is wrong.
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| Edgy DC Mar 05 2011 07:28 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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In other woids, binding arbitration.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 07:38 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It appears that MLB did not have an arbitration system set in place when Curt Flood was traded. Back then, baseball's system for settling grievances was primitive and one-sided: The commissioner of baseball, Bowie Kuhn, --who was hand-picked by the owners-- had unilateral powers to settle player grievances. Before Flood could start his Federal suit against MLB, challenging the reserve clause, he was first required to take his case to the commissioner. It was only after Kuhn denied Flood's request to void the trade that he was eligible to litigate in the Federal courts, as per the then existing rules of MLB.
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| The Second Spitter Mar 05 2011 07:43 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Mar 05 2011 07:51 AM |
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My point is that you don't bring a action based a violation on the Sherman Act to an MLB arbitration procedure, because clearly there's a lack of juridiction. Because Flood could not appeal to a Court on substantive grounds from Arbitration, he needed to find another cause of action. Thus, he filed initated a seperate action in the District Court based on the Sherman Act. Exactly the same thing in the Finley v Kuhn case (the one involving Rollie Fingers).
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| Frayed Knot Mar 05 2011 07:44 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I was just starting to write that Flood's case, coming as it did during the nascent days of the union, probably preceded at least some if not most of the arbitration features built into the basic agreement as a remedy to disputes.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 07:44 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Your articles would be greatly appreciated. The articles I read appeared online very recently and quoted Union rep Michael Weiner in the context of discussing K-Rod's vesting option.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 07:52 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I don't know that Flood would've "been appealing" from his arbitration. Isn't the arbitration procedure insular and separate from a judicial proceeding. Had flood lost in an MLB arbitration, he would then have started a brand new case in the US Courts, raising whatever challenges he saw fit. Arbitration procedures are encouraged by the courts -- they ease the burden of litigation on the judicial system by often resolving matters before they're litigated. Doesn't, for example, the SEC also require arbitration, even of issues that the US courts have exclusive jurisdiction over?
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| The Second Spitter Mar 05 2011 08:04 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The arbitration procedure was intact. In Rollie Fingers' case, one of the procedural grounds appealed to the District Court was that Kuhn had it in for the A's and therefore the arbitration hearing lacked procedural fairness.
You cannot appeal against an arbitration ruling in the US on the grounds that it lacked substantive due process, in any case. I'm 99 per cent sure of this. But you can still appeal on procedural due process.
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| The Second Spitter Mar 05 2011 08:19 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Ok. It just sounded like you were speculating whether Flood appealed against arbitration ruling to the Courts, in continuance.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 08:25 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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If I was speculating, I would've been speculating on a hypothetical, since we now know that Flood didn't arbitrate his case. MLB decided Flood's case through a series of correspondence exchanges. I'm not sure what the distinction would be, in any event. US courts have been enforcing arbitration agreements to decide antitrust issues for about 30 years.
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| The Second Spitter Mar 05 2011 08:39 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The distinction is that Courts in the US cannot change an arbitrator's findings. They can only assess whether the arbitrator acted properly. The Court in Finley noted this on numerous occasions. In any case, I had a quick look in the 1973 CBA and there was an arbitration procedure in place, very similar to the current one.
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| Edgy DC Mar 05 2011 08:46 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It's amazing how much drama is built up around this vesting option. Really dramatic considering the team is counting change and doubling down to meet their debt obligations, and they have every incentive to make a $17 million dollar obligation go away, but counter incentives (1) to make their fans think they would never make a baseball move to make them less competitive, and (2) not incur any more legal trouble.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 08:47 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Are the courts bound by all of the arbitrator's findings, or only the findings of fact?
Well ... Flood's case preceded the 1973 CBA. But more to the point, what the hell are you doing with a copy of the 1973 CBA, and where did you get it from?
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 08:55 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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If K-Rod's option doesn't vest and a grievance is filed, the Mets may not be able to afford the legal fees to fight K-Rod, the way things are going. Anyway ... my new theory on "the option" is that it was Jeff's handiwork. Jeff was coming into his own as a COO, was eager to erase the memory of the Mets bullpen calamity of 2008, thought that the family's money grew on trees, and targeted K-Rod as the solution at any cost. This was how Jeffy was going to splash onto the scene and make his mark as a smooth baseball operator ... and hence the idiotic K-Rod contract. In this scenario, Minaya is the loyal soldier falling on his sword to insulate ownership from the blame and ridicule they'd otherwise deserve.
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| batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2011 09:02 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Because otherwise, there would hardly be anything left to litigate.
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| The Second Spitter Mar 05 2011 09:29 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'm not sure, I always thought arbitration hearings can only rule on questions of fact. I should also mention there are some exceptions to Courts' review of arbitrator's rulings, but none apply to MLB. I must say, above any other area, US admin law mystifies me the most.
There was a grievance procedure with final arbitration also in the original CBA in '68. I have the whole set on my hd -- I once helped a SABR writer with research -- but I'm sure you can find them on the web. Check Doug Pappas' website. If not, I'm happy to send them to you.
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| Edgy DC Mar 05 2011 09:36 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I feel totally out-geeked.
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| The Second Spitter Mar 05 2011 10:28 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Because I did work for SABR?
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| Edgy DC Mar 05 2011 10:33 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Because you have a library with some items more esoteric than mine.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 05 2011 02:52 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It's on Omar ultimately for making such dumb transactions in service of that mindset, but that's more or less been my take on that offseason for some time. It was easy to see even then Jeff leading with his chin in his remarks following the '08 collapse. More than once he suggested the solution to the Mets troubles would be "addition by subtraction" and he assured that Omar would be making as big a symbolic gesture as possible toward solving the Mets bullpen problems that offseason (ignoring the offense's culpability in that collapse as well). Think about how much better off we might be now had Jeff done what he shoulda at that point and fired Omar/let Jerry walk/shut up/hire Alderson-DePodesta-Ricciardi.
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| Edgy DC Mar 05 2011 03:00 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Or had Omar signed 10 decent relievers instead of going nuts for two name-brand ones.
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| Edgy DC Mar 09 2011 09:28 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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| The Second Spitter Mar 10 2011 03:39 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I hope Paul Kinzer doesn't watch him too vigilantly, he may strain something.
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| Edgy DC Mar 15 2011 01:27 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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May be willing to talk? MAY BE WiLLING TO TALK?! "What's that? You have a trade offer with the potential to save my boss's ownership of the team? Hold on. Let me check.... ." "(One-two-three-four-five.)" "You still there? Yeah, we'll take it."
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 02 2011 09:55 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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| Rockin' Doc Apr 02 2011 09:59 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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batgagadanleadoff -"How many games will K-Rod finish next season?"
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 04 2011 09:03 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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| attgig Apr 04 2011 09:52 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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he was given an opportunity to finish the game... instead, he gets the vulture win...
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| Edgy DC Apr 06 2011 09:25 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Given an excellent chance to throw Rodriguez a get-your-work-in ninth last night, Terry took a pass. I'm starting to suspect he's with the program.
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| The Second Spitter Apr 06 2011 09:34 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Yeah, his reasoning is based on the bad experiences he had with Troy Percival.
If he keeps it up, it won't be long before Frankie flips-out.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 06 2011 09:49 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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With any luck, he socks Warthen. THEN we can void the contract.
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| Frayed Knot Apr 06 2011 12:04 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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He's currently on pace for zero games finished.
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| Edgy DC Apr 06 2011 12:12 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Since becoming a closer, up until this season, he's finished about 41% of his team's games. So if he resumes that pace starting tonight, he'll still finish 65 games.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 06 2011 12:16 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Assuming a full 162 game slate, he has to finish one third of all games, plus one more. So yeah, we probably are still swimming upsteam: this 0 for four streak hasn't put a real dent in K-Rod's chances. Blowouts, high leverage situational appearances (i.e., more non 9th inning apps) and the Mets falling out of contention will.
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| HahnSolo Apr 06 2011 12:58 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'll believe a manager using the closer in a high leverage non-ninth inning situation when I see it.
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| Centerfield Apr 06 2011 01:06 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I texted him pics of Dominican food late at night when he was in Florida but it didn't work.
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| G-Fafif Apr 06 2011 01:10 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Yo estoy Venezuelan. And I know from room service.
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| themetfairy Apr 06 2011 01:32 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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ROFL - Brilliant
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| Edgy DC Apr 06 2011 07:37 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Rodriguez warming up for dry run finish tonight. One more reason to rally.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 06 2011 08:03 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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4/6/11 The Mets squander K-Rod's blown save/finish of a few days ago by giving him back a gimme (8th inning appearance, 3 runs down on the road. Sigh.) *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Frayed Knot Apr 06 2011 08:36 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Is pitching the bottom of the 8th in a game that never has a bottom of the 9th considered "finishing" a game?
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 06 2011 09:04 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Last pitcher to pitch for his team in a game, no matter the circumstances.
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| Vic Sage Apr 06 2011 10:04 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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down 3 in the 8th, and you bring in your closer? i don't think Collins got the memo.
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| Gwreck Apr 06 2011 10:52 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Buchholz, Boyer and Beato had already pitched in the game.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 06 2011 10:56 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That's precisely what I was thinking of as it was happening. If it's a given that Beato and K-Rod are going to be the last two pitchers barring extra innings, why shouldn't K-Rod precede Beato, considering everything? And you know what I mean by everything.
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| Gwreck Apr 06 2011 11:00 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Same thought crossed my mind as well but that would be a little obvious, no? Was there strategic merit to bringing in Rodriguez there? Or would it simply be indicative of a calculated attempt to deny Rodriguez the chance to meet an incentive clause?
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 06 2011 11:20 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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What was the strategic advantage to having K-Rod pitch the 8th? That K-Rod's option is based on the number of games he finishes doesn't, by itself, entitle him to finish games.
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| Gwreck Apr 06 2011 11:41 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The presence of the incentive clause at a minimum suggests that he will be given that opportunity.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 06 2011 11:53 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I would like to think that relief pitcher usage would be based on the game situation and on the abilities of the available pitchers. And if those variables or factors are alike, then K-Rod shouldn't have any extra entitlement to finish a game over any other pitcher just because his option is based on games he finishes.
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| Gwreck Apr 07 2011 12:11 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I might like to think that too, but there's clearly more to the issue than baseball strategy. The presence of the clause in the contract clearly implies that Rodriguez will have an opportunity to finish games. No other pitcher has that clearly implied opportunity in their contract. Hence, Rodriguez does have a certain extra entitlement to finish games over other Mets pitchers. The extent of that entitlement is the risk/reward calculus I referenced.
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| The Second Spitter Apr 07 2011 04:44 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Your analysis is correct. Somewhere in this thread I referenced a SABR article that analyzed vesting options from a legal perpective. It suggested a similar standard ought to be applied as in constructive dismissal cases and cases involving the denial of employee stock options. D-Dad's a labor lawyer, maybe he can provide us with an insight?
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 07 2011 06:33 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Apr 07 2011 06:42 AM |
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So what if four Met relievers had a bonus in their contract that vested when they finished 55 games? Then what? The contract does not, cannot, entitle K-Rod to preferential treatment in getting finish opportunities. Whether K-Rod might have a grievance if the Mets compromised competitiveness to thwart K-Rod's option from vesting is one issue, but the Mets, without doubt, are not required to go out of their way to give him finish opportunities when to let another pitcher finish a game, (i.e., Beato last night) would've been just as sound tactically. Any other interpretation is crazy. The Mets should be able to allot playing time as they see fit so long as they are not intentionally compromising their ability to compete.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 07 2011 06:40 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think that's irrelevant.
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| Benjamin Grimm Apr 07 2011 06:42 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think, under that circumstance, the Mets should just release Frankie. They'd certainly be entitled to do that.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 07 2011 07:05 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think sound strategy should justify anything the Mets do here. Here's a hypothetical to test your theory: What if the Mets acquired Mariano Rivera tomorrow? Would the Mets then be obligated to choose K-Rod over Rivera whenever a Save opportunity materializes? If your answer is no, then you're conceding that pitcher ability is a legitimate factor that the Mets may consider when allotting playing time. Otherwise, you'd be saying that the Mets cannot, or should not, seek out in the market, a reliever that is clearly better than K-Rod because the team wouldn't be able to use that pitcher as they see fit. Your contract interpretation would mean that the Mets cannot improve the high end of their bullpen because they are legally obligated to facilitate the vesting of K-Rod's option. And that makes no sense to me.
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| Gwreck Apr 07 2011 08:15 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Incorrect. 1. I'm wasn't addressing hypothetical situations. 2. You are misstating what I wrote. There are obviously about a million different things that could happen, including injury, decline in skills, the Mets acquiring a better player or even green space aliens abducting Francisco, all of which may affect the Mets' obligations.
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| TransMonk Apr 07 2011 08:57 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Watching Frankie warm up last night, I was wondering if the taunts and insults he got from the fans in Philly would be as plentiful and biting as the ones he will receive when he warms up in New York.
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| Nymr83 Apr 07 2011 10:10 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I thought bringing him in last night was foolish. He shouldn't be allowed to finish any game that isn't a save (except bringing him in to a tie game in extra innings or something like that.) Letting him pitch 3 runs down is just asinine.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 09 2011 04:00 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Don't you think you should be? If you're going to create a rule, you ought to be applying that rule to hypothetical situations, facts that are analagous, and slightly nuanced from the real facts in order to see how your rule would fully play out. You can't create a rule without considering how it would hold up to slightly dissimilar situations. Otherwise your rule might lead to unanticipated and undesirable consequences. I've been doing just that throughout these K-Rod option discussions and I feel as if I'm running into opposition -- not on the merits of my ideas, but for supposedly changing the nature of the topic without reason ... as if I'm playing a game of three card monte with the relevant facts.
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| Gwreck Apr 09 2011 04:56 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I didn't create a rule. It's an analysis of the current situation (or the situation as it was in Wednesday's game).
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| Fman99 Apr 09 2011 07:49 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think that he should be used exactly as he always had, but then, with two strikes and two outs, bring in any other guy from the bullpen to throw the last pitch.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 09 2011 09:29 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Tonight made sense.
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| Nymr83 Apr 10 2011 07:47 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Tonight was good. You probably didn't want to use him for very long tonight after 4 outs yesterday, so bringing him to get 1 key out and get out of there (with the PH coming next inning) was good. Only his one appearence coming in down by 3 has bothered me so far.
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| The Second Spitter Apr 15 2011 03:24 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I started an exchange of emails with a friend at SABR in the hope of obtaining the article I mentioned earlier in this thread. In the course of this, he revealed to me the Mets strategy with respect to Frankie:
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 15 2011 07:18 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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| duan Apr 15 2011 08:25 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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the specific motherfucking yankee scenario is unlikely even for them, as essentially that's what they did with Rafael Santana. Overpay a guy so that he'll be closer after 'mo' finishes.
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| Nymr83 Apr 17 2011 07:45 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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who is Raphael Santana? Oh and add another "finish" for Rodriguez today, his 6th.
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| Gwreck Apr 17 2011 08:17 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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4th
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| Benjamin Grimm Apr 18 2011 04:34 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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| Gwreck Apr 18 2011 06:23 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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In this context duan was probably thinking of Rafael Soriano, however.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 06:54 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Why don't the Mets do this? I brought it up in the winter when there was nothing else to talk about.. I mean, The Mets are still better with a good closer than they are trying to replace him. It's not like he's old.
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| Gwreck Apr 18 2011 07:57 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Because he committed felonious assault in the workplace and he's a generally undesirable person to have around.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 07:59 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I don't see what the first has to do with baseball, and I somehow doubt the second is true.
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| The Second Spitter Apr 18 2011 08:08 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The better answer would have been: there's no ponzi scheme that would make it advantageous for the Mets to defer salary.
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| duan Apr 18 2011 08:18 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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indeed i was. sorry about that.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 18 2011 08:31 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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*Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Gwreck Apr 18 2011 08:41 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The second is true because the first is true. There's a greater issue than baseball there; it goes to the nature of the employer-employee relationship. Rodriguez has proven himself to be a disruptive and insubordinate employee who committed a felony in the workplace. In the real world, if you do that at your job, you no longer get to work there anymore. --- Going back to your original question as to why the Mets don't work out a contract extension with Rodriguez, the answer is all of the above, plus the fact that any extension worked out with him would still probably be overpaying for the quality he brings to the team. Your comment that "the Mets are still better with a good closer than trying to replace him" is flawed because it fails to consider the potential lower cost of a replacement player of similar value.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 08:52 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Lower cost relievers are not better relievers, they're just cheaper. We don't know that the 14million-newguy money is going to significantly make the team better, or that they desperately need it to fill all the holes and won't be able to do so without it. There's a chance that they fill it internally, but there is no telling if anyone will show themselves worthy of that either. I'd rather have the overpaid K-Rod for one year versus a less guy for 2 or 3. None of these are absolutes obviously, maybe they can sign a guy cheaply, maybe for only 1 year. It should all play in, but it's not a given that this team is better off without him. To the other point. Who knows. He's hardly the only guy employed in the world that's had a domestic dispute, even at work. And there are plenty of situations where they remain working where they're working, from favortism to money, such as this case. Just because the guy may not be the best human being doesn't mean that his teammates hate him or hate having him around. Josh Thole for example apparently likes him enough to talk him through setting up a Twitter account.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 18 2011 09:32 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Nobody's arguing that the next guy in the closer role ('cause, y'know, if you're thinking we're revolutionizing that, really, who's kidding who?) will be better than Rodriguez at pitching/"closing" (necessarily), or that the team will be better off without him in general (save, perhaps, GWreck; even then, I suspect he hates what Frankie represents more than hating Frankie himself). Most of us seem to be arguing that $17M is too damn much to lock up in a reliever, whose value is SEVERELY limited by workload. An okay-producing outfielder for $17 million is worth more in terms of winning ballgames than the bestest closer having a career/HOF-type year; put another way, there's virtually no fucking way that Francisco Rodriguez will earn $17 million in onfield contributions. Additionally, it's that Overpaid K-Rod ramps up the odds significantly that guys like Reyes never get to become MarketValue Reyes in a Mets uni. I mean, there's no guarantee that you'll spend your tax refund check wisely, either, but wouldn't you rather have a bigger one with which to work?
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 09:43 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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And that's where my disagreement is. I'm not convinced that it will. If it does, yes, ship him out. release him if they're out of it. Pull him with 2 outs and 2 strikes. I don't believe the union should be able to dictate in-game usage, and I'd be in favor of the Mets telling them to bugger off, we'll use our guys how we want. But this is not my decision. It's Alderson/Owner's. It's their job to figure out what they're going to need to spend on other parts, and if that 14mllion is desparately needed to keep Reyes and get another pitcher/OF/etc. Obviously him not vesting gives maximum flexibility and doesn't prevent them from resigning him from there either. But I just don't believe it's a big deal. Either A. The Mets need him not to vest, and in which case they'll make sure he doesn't. B. The Mets will be fine even if he vests, and having 17.5 million coming off the books in 2013 helps flexibility in that year too. C. The Mets are "in it" into September, and the added revenue from being in a pennant race and walk-up sales and next year projections based off that more than pays for Rodriguez if he ends up getting al ot of opportunity to close games in the persuit of staying in a pennant race.
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| duan Apr 18 2011 11:18 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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the basic premise comes down to this.
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| Benjamin Grimm Apr 18 2011 11:27 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Even if Frankie Rodriguez is the best closer in baseball (which I doubt, but let's assume that) I still think you could get a guy 80 per cent as good for about half the money.
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| metirish Apr 18 2011 11:31 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'm fairly sure that Alderson and his crew won't overvalue a "closer".
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 11:44 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think the Mets could be classified as a good team needing to be put over the top with both the Santana and K-Rod moves. It was from there that he really failed, desperately trying to plug holes rather than work on building depth and backup plans with all the injuries. But regardless, i think the Mets problem has not been that they paid good players more than they're worth, ala K-Rod and Castillo, but that they paid some players and got virtually nothing out of them. Perez, Putz, Beltran, Reyesand to a lesser extent guys like GMJ and Francouer. Santana this year. The team needs to get better, and there are enough holes to target. If the Mets are in dire straits enough that they need to shuffle around players to create more funds, I don't know that they'lll have enough to make the team competitive anyway. After all, regardless of how much value K-Rod actually provides, getting rid of him is still going backwards to go further. Personally, I don't believe the Mets should, or need to, do that. I odn't believe there is a 2-3 year window before the Mets can be competitive, and that's part of the reason I'm not real concerned with his option vesting. I don't agree with the idea of paying a 80% guy half of that. (Even if we paid the replacement 8million, how sure are we that the 6million difference is going to make up that 20% value? It is only like half a WAR we're talking about here though. And where? ) I just have a problem with filling roster slots with subpar guys when better ones are available. If you can conclusively need that extra couple of million to say woo Cano over here (just picking a big hole and a big replacement for it) then I'm all for it, but I'm just not convincd that his contract is going to be what keeps Alderson from doing what he needs to.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 18 2011 12:06 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I can hardly believe we are wasting so much energy on this question. It's obvious to everyone except maybe Ceetar that the Mets can't afford and won't allow that option to vest; that K-Rod is a douchebag; and that the Mets were retarded for ever giving out that deal in the first place.
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| Gwreck Apr 18 2011 12:11 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It's difficult to locate logic in this sentence. I think this argument fails in that it incorrectly presumes that removing Rodriguez from the Mets automatically makes them a weaker team. Also: The Yankees hold options on Robinson Cano for both the 2012 and 2013 seasons at $14 and $15 million, respectively.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 12:14 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I just jumped in today, or yesterday, or whenever. I haven't commented on this thread since early March. Tell me where it's obvious that they can't afford his option vesting? Vague finance reports about the lawsuit by beat writers? Alderson said he hoped to have 2012 payroll somewhat lower than the ceiling, to provide flexibility. Well, I can't see that it'd be the end of the world if it were 6-7 million higher closer to that cap if he got a 17.5 boon of flexibility the following year. It boils down to his numbers though. I, as of right now, am going to trust him. If he feels they need the money by moving K-Rod, he will. If not, he won't. I don't root based on money. I root based on the name on the front of the jersey. so if K-Rod comes in the 5th, or the 9th, of a save situation or a blowout, i'm rooting for him to close out the inning cleanly. He's hardly the only douchebag in the game. That just doesn't factor in for me. I'd take Miguel Cabrera on the team right now, and I think what he did was worse.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 12:17 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Sorry if i bundled the wording, trying to type in this box in IE is infuriating. It's hard to see how removing one of better relievers in the game from a team does not make them worse. It most certainly does. the team is going to have a closer, so if you remove him, it's one more piece Alderson has to acquire. You may get a little more money, but you also get a longer shopping list.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 18 2011 12:29 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Why don't the Mets guarantee K-Rod a hundred million dollars for next season? Because, think of all the money that'll then come off payroll for 2013. And us fans won't have to worry about the number of games K-Rod finishes this season.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 12:33 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I don't really care what they do with their extra money. If they fill all the other holes and then want to give Frankie all the surplus, fine by me. Would seem a little stupid, but sure.. I wouldn't be surprised of Alderson approaches Frankie's agent later in the year and proposes an extension at current rate in lieu of the extension. then you get the player, AND 5-6million dollars of additional working money.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 18 2011 12:45 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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"Honey, look-- if we buy two more timeshares, we get them for 40% off each! Think of how much we'll save!" 
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 12:47 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That doesn't even make sense.
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| Benjamin Grimm Apr 18 2011 12:50 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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You're the one talking about "all the surplus" for a financially strapped team.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 12:54 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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was tongue in cheek to the stupid give Frankie 100 million comment. no one knows how much money they're going to spend next year, and certainly no one here knows better than Alderson.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 18 2011 01:01 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Granted. Neither does proposing that an extension that will cost at least $9-10M above current salary obligations will actually "save" $5-6M (that isn't locked in, by the way) next year. (And I'm leaving aside for the moment that if said extension is more than a one-year job, you're increasing salary obligations, temporally and dollar-wise.)
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| TransMonk Apr 18 2011 01:02 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Unfortunately, with K-Rod the debate goes beyond baseball skills and financial options.
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| Ceetar Apr 18 2011 01:12 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It's certainly possible, but it's one thing to cite fan opinion to ditch Castillo, although so far I'm kinda wishing they hadn't, quite another to actively avoid keeping a contributing player because of it.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 25 2011 08:27 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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In winnable games, Terry Collins apparently prefers to use his relievers based on the inning number rather than the game situation. For now, Beato is the 7th inning guy, Izzy the 8th and K-Rod is the closer instead of the ace reliever. K-Rod's most recent finish presented Collins with ideal conditions for using K-rod in the 8th inning: the Mets were up by one run and the D-Backs heart of the lineup was due up. Instead, Izzy pitched the 8th and K-Rod came on in the 9th to protect a two-run lead (the Mets added an insurance run in their half of the 8th) against the bottom of the D-Backs lineup. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Vic Sage Apr 25 2011 01:26 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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between his bullpen use and willingness to give up outs, i'm beginning to really dislike Ye Olde Cuntbunter.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 26 2011 10:08 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Misallocated Resources? Once again, Izzy is asked to do the heavy lifting: he comes on in the eighth to face the heart of the opponent's order with the Mets up by two. K-Rod - presumably, the Mets best reliever - then closes out tonight's Mets win by holding the Nats 7-8-9-1 hitters to less than two runs (zero runs, to be exact). K-Rod saves the game. Hooray. K-Rod saves the game. Hooray. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| batmagadanleadoff Apr 28 2011 09:55 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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... on target, just about. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Benjamin Grimm Apr 28 2011 10:35 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Too bad you can't make the background bright red for any row in your table where the projected number is at 55 or above.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 02 2011 07:33 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 02 2011 08:16 AM |
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It's not my table. I just post here. Feel free to contribute as you see fit. But I was thinking along the same lines. I never considered the background color, or even knew that the background color couldn't be adjusted. But I thought about making K-Rod's "on-pace" numbers black when over 54 and red when under 55.
In the not-embarrassed-to-admit thread, I learned that in a MLB contract, performance bonuses cannot be based on statistics. I did a little bit of research, and was able to trace this to Major League Rule 3(b)(5), which states: "No Major League Uniform Player's Contract or Minor League Uniform Player Contract shall be approved if it contains a bonus for playing, pitching or batting skill or if it provides for the payment of a bonus contingent on the standing of the signing Club at the end of the championship season." As was correctly pointed out by a few posters, an athlete might play selfishly, to the detriment of his team, in the self-centered pursuit of his performance goals. Hence the rule. Thus, for example, a player with a performance bonus based on the number of doubles he hits in a season might purposely play a triple into a two-base hit. The rule has developed to allow bonuses based on games played, innings pitched, and apparently games finished, presumably on the theory that a player cannot purposely compromise his team's ability to compete in the pursuit of those particular statistics. I say "presumably", because I was unable to find the specific language that created any of those exceptions. In light of all of this, if K-Rod finished more than 54 games this season, I would recommend that the Mets file a grievance on the theory that K-Rod's vesting option violates MLB Rule 3(b)(5) and is therefore unenforceable. Or file the grievance right now instead of waiting to see how many games K-Rod might finish. As we saw from last night's game, a road pitcher in the 9th inning of a tie game with a vesting option based on games finished -- like K-Rod-- might be inclined to blow the game intentionally in order to ensure another finish for himself, especially where that pitcher would likely be removed from the game once it goes into extra innings. Whether K-Rod himself would actually blow a game intentionally under those circumstances is irrelevant. The mere possibility that a player could do that should be enough to void performance bonus clauses based on games finished, for the same reason that most other stats can't be used to trigger bonuses. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Ceetar May 02 2011 07:41 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Yeah, I kinda think these clauses, all around baseball, are skirting the line of this rule. I'd prefer none of them be allowed, including games played/started. Who's to say pitchers can't lie about injury/fatigue and start the game? Even if they get pulled after a batter, or 3IP when they tire, they get the statistic. A guy that's got a hurt knee or something could say he can't play the field but it doesn't hurt to swing and go up there and just take take take because it DOES hurt to swing, but he gets a GP anyway.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 02 2011 07:48 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Good point.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket May 02 2011 08:06 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Seaver's controversial 1976 contract was loaded with performance boosters that resided on the very edge of legality. I do believe Seaver in an interview (where did I see this? I can't remember) said it was based on wins. Am I remembering this right?
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| batmagadanleadoff May 02 2011 08:12 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Perhaps the prohibition against stat based bonuses didn't exist in the mid-70's. I remember that Kingman's first contract with the Cubs included a bonus for breaking the franchise RBI record.
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| Edgy DC May 02 2011 08:16 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I still say the rule is more in the interest of the player. If I hit 44 homers, I'm going to demand a five-year contract that pays me as a 44-homer hitter. If the team can legally come back to me and say "Sure, here's this contract that pays you as such ---- provided you reach that threshhold every year," I'm kind of screwed (relatively). It's better for players if their salary is linked to the shiny, happy, perfect-world projections of their performances dripping off the tongues of their agents, rather than their actual performances.
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| Ceetar May 02 2011 08:23 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I think career milestones are different. A-Rod's got a new clause for passing people on the all-time list right? $30M marketing agreement based on home run milestones ($6M each for reaching 660, 714, 755 and tying and breaking major league HR record)
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 02 2011 09:26 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Interesting idea, BML. Precedent-breaking aside... would it matter that the Mets had proposed the "illegal" contract clauses originally?
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket May 02 2011 09:32 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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My memory is horrible* but wherever it was I'd read about this, relatively recently, it was in the context of the contract even then flouting the rules governing such incentives but reached in an era where it was easier for employers to get away with such flim-flammery. * - Yesterday while starting coals in for the smoker (ribs cooked with cherry smoke for 7 hours, fantastic) I peeled a Daily News page from 2009 with a giant picture of Livan Hernandez in a Mets uniform and I really had to think hard just to remember he was in fact ever a member of this team. I did confirm it, eventually, but it was one of those facts that went by the wayside of my brain in a such a maanner that when we faced Livan a few days ago I didn't once think we were opposing a former Met. That's f'ed up.
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| G-Fafif May 02 2011 10:24 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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You and I watched Livan throw his final Met pitch from the top of Promenade. So much for all those anchors who insist "nobody will ever forget where they were when" historic events take place.
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| metirish May 02 2011 10:32 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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did the same myself minus the wood...what smoker do you have?, I have an offset which until the last few weeks I wasn't using properly(not using the offset firebox is what I mean) low and slow , can't beat it.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket May 02 2011 11:45 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I have a cheap Meko charcoal water smoker: Basically, a metal tube with a lid but gets the job done.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 02 2011 12:40 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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My hunch is that it wouldn't matter whether K-Rod or the Mets suggested the clause. If K-Rod signed the contract (which he did) then he agreed to the terms. K-Rod agreed to the terms just as much as the Mets did, and that's what matters. By the way, I also believe that those "milestone clauses" in A-Rod's contract should be voided. To illustrate: David Wright entered this season with 169 lifetime HR's as a Met, 23 HR's behind Hojo's 3rd place Met mark of 192 HR's. Wright must hit 24 HR's to pass Hojo in 2011. If a bonus clause in Wright's 2011 contract that vests if Wright hits 24 HR's is impermissible, the parties shouldn't be allowed to circumvent that prohibition by rephrasing the vesting condition as "passing Hojo's mark" instead of "hitting 24 HR's" -- no matter how that bonus is phrased, incentives would still exist for Wright to swing for the fences even when he shouldn't.
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| Ceetar May 02 2011 12:52 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Makes sense to me. It'd be easy enough to put phrase the bonus as "Passing Carlos Delgado's career HR mark" instead of "hitting 100 home runs over the next three years" or something.
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| metsguyinmichigan May 02 2011 01:10 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Is there a chance that if he kicks major butt this year, he's worth the $17 million next year? I mean, we're paying a guy $12 million to pitch for the Nationals Triple-A team this year.
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| Gwreck May 02 2011 01:19 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Nope. No way. His MARKET value is probably closer to $10M, if he kicks major butt. His TRUE value is even lower. For comparison's sake, here are some 2011 Salaries: Rivera $15M Cordero $12M Papelbon $12M (arbitration) Rodriguez $11.5M Lidge $11.5M Nathan $11.25M Bell $7.5M (arbitration) Street $7.3M Broxton $7M Valverde $7M Soria $4M
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| Ceetar May 02 2011 01:28 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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on a strict performance to dollar ratio, no way he's worth the $14 more they'd pay him if he vests, however there are other factors. If he presents himself as the best closer available, then that extra money becomes money that makes the team better. The problem is determining if making the team X amount better is worth spending Y, and if spending Y keeps you from acquiring Z which might be greater than X.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 02 2011 01:35 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Also, we're NOT paying that guy-- nor the other guy-- BEYOND this year. You're basically swapping in a $13M debit ($17M, minus the $3M buyout and, say, .5-1M you might use to address the hole on the cheap by, say, using Parnell or Mejia to close) in a year when you've got $60M coming off the books. May not sound significant, but if you're letting the payroll come down another $20-$40M, then your K-Rod just bought you an austerity package of FAs (including a SS replacement) once again.
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| Ceetar May 02 2011 01:41 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Is he even pitching for AAA? i think he's in extended spring training. at the very least, I briefly looked last week sometime and couldn't find a professional apperarance for him the Nats minor leagues.
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| Edgy DC May 02 2011 01:54 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'm telling you, folks. It's the union that keeps performance-based incentives out of contracts.
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| smg58 May 02 2011 02:09 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The key word in that phrase is "skill." An incentive for games played (or finished) does not depend on how "skillfully" those games were played (or finished). The simple fact that K-Rod's contract gives him a financial motivation to throw gopher balls in tie games on the road should give the league sufficient justification to outlaw that kind of incentive as well. But that's not going to happen retroactively.
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| Nymr83 May 02 2011 07:42 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Such a ban should happen going forward, imo. Who exactly is this situation good for?
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| Edgy DC May 02 2011 07:55 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Let's not overthink this.
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| Nymr83 May 02 2011 08:19 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Even if he doesn't do it, nobody should want him to have incentive to.
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| Edgy DC May 02 2011 08:31 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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My point is that he wouldn't have incentive to.
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| Nymr83 May 02 2011 09:27 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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he has incentive to do it once or twice, even if he throws the straight-as-an-arrow meatball at 88 instead of 80, as long as he doesnt lose the "closer job" in the process, which is unlikely
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| Edgy DC May 02 2011 09:39 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Come on.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 02 2011 09:47 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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If the validity of K-Rod's bonus clause ever becomes the subject of a grievance, the arbitrator hearing that case would have the authority to render a ruling that has retroactive effect. In other words, the arbitrator could, if he or she sees fit, declare the clause unenforceable. This wouldn't be unusual. In fact, even in the world of MLB, the most well-known ruling -- Peter Seitz's decision to interpret the reserve clause narrowly --consistent with the MLBPA's interpretation of the clause -- had retroactive effect. The owners rights over their players were instantly diminished after Seitz's ruling and not one single reserve clause was ever grandfathered in. I agree, though, that the league, by itself, couldn't void that clause retroactively -- not without the MLBPA's acquiescence, an unlikely scenario.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 04 2011 08:20 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'm flip-flopping: I now root for K-Rod's option to vest. Because more Mets liabilities will make it harder for the Wilpons to retain majority ownership of the franchise. I've got priorities. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 07 2011 11:17 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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*Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 08 2011 02:11 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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On second thought -- although it wouldn't matter in the world that me and you live in, it might matter in the world of Major League Baseball. The Commissioner has to approve or disapprove of that performance bonus, ("a special covenant, in MLB jargon). The CBA outlines the procedure for filing a grievance whenever an aggrieved party objects to the Commissioner's disapproval of a special covenant. Understandably, the CBA is silent on what an objecting party is required to do if the Commissioner approves the clause, because, you know, why would a party object to getting what they bargained for?  Therefore, in light of the CBA's silence on this issue, I can see two possible answers to your question; a) any objections are waived if the commissioner approves the clause; or b) (and this is the one I'm leaning towards) any objections are preserved and an arbitrator has the right to rule that the clause in question is inconsistent with other baseball rules or contract law.
K-Rod [crossout]saves[/crossout] Saves all three games of the Mets current win streak. The Mets are 4 1/2 games out of the Wild Card. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 10 2011 11:58 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Though the Mets are just 5 1/2 games out of the Wild Card, Baseball Prospectus' assigns odds of less than 1% -- 125 to 1 to be precise -- for a Mets 2011 post-season berth. Not likely. But way likelier than going 7-0 with your first seven picks in a Klassic Rawk Kontest. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 11 2011 01:28 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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K-Rod's last outing was his most dominant of 2011. Will K-Rod's contract be the straw that finally breaks the Wilpons' grip on the franchise? Go K-Rod! (Mets revised odds of making the playoffs -- 74-1) *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket May 11 2011 01:35 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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That would be funny, since I'm sure Omar didn't go and buy Rodriguez without a strong vote of CAHNfidence from Jeff.
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| HahnSolo May 12 2011 07:27 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Was today his first non-save mopup finish this year (another 1-2-3 outing, to be fair)? I guess he was already warmed up in what would have been a save situation before Beltran's last bomb, so I won't go totally crazy on Terry here.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket May 12 2011 07:30 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Wasn't the jam Izzy's own creation too? I think we applaud Terry for not going to Rodriguez sooner.
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| HahnSolo May 12 2011 07:37 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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No you are right, I missed the 8th inning on the way home, I thought on the postgame they said Izzy came on with two men on. But a check of the box says he started the whole mess. So my bad.
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| Edgy DC May 12 2011 08:34 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Agreed. I hear there's a bit of Cut-off-Your-Nose-to-Spite-Your-Face Disease going around. So you all be careful.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 13 2011 07:43 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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K'Rod's in the money when he's on the money and in the black when he's on the black. (Mets revised odds of making the playoffs [crossout]74-1[/crossout] -- 56-1) *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Benjamin Grimm May 13 2011 08:54 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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WOOOOOOOOOOO!
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| dgwphotography May 13 2011 09:03 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I agree - I fear that not resigning Reyes will be the only result of letting the option vest.
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| Edgy DC May 13 2011 09:09 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It'd be a factor one way or the other. I'd stay far away from drawing a cause-effect conclusion.
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| Ceetar May 13 2011 09:11 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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This is why I don't get worked up over it. I trust Sandy knows how much more valuable Reyes (etc) is than a closer, and if there is a cause-effect relationship here he'll prevent the vest.
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| soupcan May 13 2011 09:23 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Lunchables and I are on all of the same pages.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 13 2011 09:34 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Frankie K-Rod: Come on Down. You're the new contestant on Bust the Wilpons!"
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| batmagadanleadoff May 13 2011 09:39 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Contestants: Here is your first round question. Which garment is worth more? (Not including the on the lam money stashed in the secret compartments sewn into their linings)
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| dgwphotography May 13 2011 09:40 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Don't get me wrong. I'm obviously all for anything that would get the Wilponzis out.
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| Frayed Knot May 13 2011 09:46 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'm having a hard time buying the idea that whatever the Mets do, or don't, pay for a closer in 2012 is going to be the make or break factor in whether they sign Jose Reyes for the next 6 or 7 seasons or whether the Wilpons are able to hold onto the team.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket May 13 2011 10:38 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I'm only having fun with the idea of Jeff being hoisted by his own petard. Either way I've decided this countdown to 55 should be looked at as something fun not soemthing to dread.
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| smg58 May 13 2011 11:41 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The situation is something of a Catch-22, because barring an injury, Rodriguez will finish 55+ games for us if we're winning games at a good clip. The option won't vest if our winning percentage veers south of .450, but does anybody really want that?
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| metirish May 13 2011 12:27 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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This , and I think that's is how this thread is going, if he keeps going the way he's going he could be an All Star selection. Jeffrey won't be chuffed about that.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 13 2011 10:06 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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After vulturing a win by blowing a save in his first appearance of the season, K-Rod has since succesfully converted his next 11 Save opportunities. With rivals for finish opportunities, Beato and Parnell, on the shelf, it's clear sailing for K-Rod in the immediate future. For now, K-Rod is on pace to collect that $17.5M option next season, and will remain on pace even if he doesn't finish any of the Mets next three games. Still, the next three games will only get K-Rod as far as May 17th, so there's plenty of season left for anything to happen. All this with a diminished fast ball that barely, and rarely, breaks 90 MPH. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 20 2011 08:46 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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K-Rod now has a seven game cushion in his quest to vest: that is, he will remain on pace even if he doesn't finish any of the Mets next seven games. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| TransMonk May 20 2011 08:55 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Through game 43, Frankie has 14 saves (one off the lead league) and is on pace to finish with 53, which would be a Mets single-season record (by 10).
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| Edgy DC May 20 2011 09:25 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The pattern seems to suggest that if Rodriguez exceeds the threshhold, it probably means good news for the Mets.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 21 2011 07:48 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Though his fast ball ain't what it used to be, K-Rod is still dominant. His breaking stuff is maddening to the opposition: the same pitch arrives with whiffle-ball-like movement, breaking North-South and East-West simultaneously. That, and a newly discovered two-seam sinker:
Mets odds of making the playoffs, according to Baseball Prospectus: 28 1/2 to 1. *Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 26 2011 12:37 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Rafael Soriano hurt. Elbow issue, up to two months.
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| batmagadanleadoff May 26 2011 05:50 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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A round-up of recent K-Rod posts:
*Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Elster88 Jun 16 2011 08:17 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Bump
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| Edgy DC Jun 21 2011 02:46 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Maybe kharma can be restored and Nolan Ryan can save the Mets from themselves.
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| batmagadanleadoff Jun 26 2011 07:41 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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*Remainders are always lopped off and never rounded up to the nearest whole number.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 05 2011 09:23 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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A lot of buzz today that the Mets have offered Rodriguez to the Yankees, but that the Yankees interest is not strong.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 05 2011 09:39 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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And a considerable amount of bitter tang, as well.
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| attgig Jul 05 2011 10:53 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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to update the table with your numbers...
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| Frayed Knot Jul 05 2011 11:08 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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The Yanx tend to like to play wait-n-see on deals like this, then convince teams as the deadline approaches that no one else will take their horribly expensive player so they have no choice but to meet the Yanx' price. Last year, for instance, they wound up getting Lance Berkman, Austin Kearns, and Kerry Wood for the stretch drive and paid very little in flesh or in money for any of them. So even if they decide they do need Rodriguez (which depends, I suppose, on the health/future of their currently absent relievers) their natural tendency to avoid speculation coupled with a desire to make deals only on their own terms means they'll probably deny interest right up to the moment they announce the acquisition.
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| Edgy DC Jul 05 2011 11:14 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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I heard they offered Jeter.
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| Frayed Knot Jul 05 2011 11:31 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Well they better hurry up then so he can get hit #3,000 where it most fittingly belongs* ... at CitiField. * or so I've read.
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| Edgy DC Jul 05 2011 11:43 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It's an interesting question: Are the Yankees projected to get more performance/dollar from Jeter out of this contract than the Mets are projected to get out of Rodriguez? How about from this point forward? If you neutralize for the reality that Jeter is a PR dreambobat and Rodriguez a relative nightmare, I think the Mets would have to reject such a deal.
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| Ceetar Jul 05 2011 11:53 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Jeter's only a PR dreambobat as a Yankee. He's basically Luis Castillo on the Mets. (He'd have to play the Chin-lung Hu role actually) Mets probably don't derive that much value from Frankie, although they're teetering on the periphery of a 'playoff race' and perhaps removing Frankie, even at that slight downgrade, puts them out of it and makes August September uninteresting? Unless Jeter can pitch?
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| Fman99 Jul 05 2011 03:59 PM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Of course he can pitch. Do you know how many Ford Edge's I own?
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| TransMonk Jul 13 2011 07:44 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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At least this is the Brewers' bomb to defuse now.
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| metirish Jul 13 2011 07:45 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Will K-Rod be the closer there , why did they deal for him anyway?
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| TransMonk Jul 13 2011 07:49 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It remains to be seen...but I don't think they want his option to vest any more than we did.
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| metirish Jul 13 2011 07:51 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Is does create a potential problem...Axford starts to suck the calls for K-Rod to close get loud and bang you're on the hook.
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| TransMonk Jul 13 2011 07:54 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Like I said...better their problem than ours.
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| Ceetar Jul 13 2011 07:59 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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What's the rate now, 21 games with like 74 or so to play? Probably won't be a dire issue unless Axford starts to suck immediately.
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| TransMonk Jul 13 2011 08:14 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Did Boras spur K-Rod trade?
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| Ceetar Jul 13 2011 08:19 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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It's in interesting thought. I generally ignore most of what Boras says as bluster in public, but if K-Rod truly planned to block a trade as a setup man, that would certainly kill a lot of the leverage.
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| Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 08:28 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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the only way he commands a good off-season contract is to:
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| Edgy DC Jul 13 2011 08:39 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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He'll get his $17.5 million. He just has to get it over a longer period.
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| MFS62 Jul 13 2011 08:43 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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In answer to the thread title's question, I don't give a flying rat's rectum anymore.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 09:03 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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/FLYING HIGH FIVE
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| Frayed Knot Jul 13 2011 09:44 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Welcome to Scotty-land:
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| metirish Jul 13 2011 09:47 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Boras sure loves the historic nonsense.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2011 09:49 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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'twould be Awesome if Axford falls down the stairs today.
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| Edgy DC Jul 13 2011 09:51 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Or fails a drug test.
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| Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 10:12 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Is that schadenfreude i smell emanating from his Edgeness?
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| Edgy DC Jul 13 2011 10:17 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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Well, I don't want him to fall down the stairs, now, do I?
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| Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 10:18 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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oh, good point.
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| attgig Jul 13 2011 10:22 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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hey may get that 17.5 mil to vest. brewers are getting 5mil. that means they're getting krod for free this year. if the option vests, they're paying 17.5 mil for 1.5 seasons which is ~11.5 mil a year - which is what we paid him last year and this year.
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| Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 10:33 AM Re: How many games will K-Rod finish next season? |
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depends on how they budget and account. But they may not amortize their operating costs in that way. In fact, a small-market team is unlikely to, working more on a cash-basis style of annual accounting, where profits from 1 year do NOT factor into increasing a team's budget for the following year.
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