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A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy MD Nov 12 2010 10:22 AM

Oliver Perez trying to learn to pitch again (which is the greatest love of all), appearing out of the bullpen with the Tomateros de Culiacán in the Mexican Winter League. He's so far put up a 7.36 ERA in three appearances That's certainly not good, but it's not as bad as it sounds and it may be the Hell he has to walk thrugh if he ever to find his way back. He's got two walks and six strikeouts in 3 2/3 innings, which suggests he's (mostly) throwing strikes. He's meanwhile given up no jonrones and has a 1.5:1 GO ratio, so the strikes he's throwing aren't getting rocketed by the fringe hitters he's facing, but are finding the grass nonetheless. Hopefully they do what Jerry wouldn't in September and throw him out there to start sooner or later. He could use the love. ¡Vivan los Tomateros!

Valadius Nov 12 2010 11:57 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: and it may be the Hell he has to walk thrugh if he ever to find his way back Damn, you just gave me the idea to write an "Ollie's Inferno" post.

Ceetar Nov 12 2010 12:01 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

no speed reports right? (which may be the best part, as too many people zero in on the number like literally 92+ is good pitcher and 89 is bad pitcher) 6Ks is comforting. the fringe statistics look okay. Ollie is at his best when he's throwing the ball by guys. Even in some of his bad performances, you'd be screaming for his head in the fourthi nning and suddenly realize he was throwing a no-hitter. So ifhe's getting Ks, and not serving up meatballs that are getting smacked over fences, it may be the first glimmer of hope.

Ashie62 Nov 12 2010 02:29 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Maybe if Perez does well in the Mexican league and carries it over into spring training Sandy will have an easier job trading Ollie's sorry azz.

Edgy MD Nov 29 2010 09:33 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

And now it gets interesting. W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG-A 2 0 3.00 7 2 0 0 0 15 12 5 5 0 9 14 0.67 .222

MFS62 Nov 29 2010 09:48 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I was geting ready to talk about how many of the Mexican teams play at altitudes far above sea level, so its hard to throw breaking ball in the thin air (like Denver, Colorado). Then I googled Culiacan and found out it is less than 200 feet (55 meters)above sea level. So I hold my judgement about Ollie's performance. Later

seawolf17 Nov 30 2010 04:06 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Thing is, we know Ollie's theoretically capable of that, which is why I've been hesitant to just toss him overboard this whole time.

Ceetar Nov 30 2010 07:25 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Hypothetical time, because, it's November and my Paradox script is pissing me off and I'd rather think about the Mets. Say Perez performs well now and in Spring Training and for whatever crazy reason, makes it into the rotation. It's possible he could have two starts before pitching at Citi Field. Is there anything he can do in those two starts that would earn him any credibility before his first start at home? And in a related note, will attendance spike for that game? I sense a willingness for fans to actually go out and boo him.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 30 2010 07:29 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I doubt that Oliver Perez would affect the attendance, at least not in a positive way. I would guess that fans would be more motivated to go to a game that the Mets might win than a game where they'd be (unfairly or not) expected to lose. I also don't think a good winter and spring would redeem Ollie in the eyes of very many Mets fans, given how high the antipathy got. It will take considerably more than that.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 07:32 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Pitching well in the off-season, in spring training, and in his first two starts on the road will certainly soften the abuse he gets upon his homecoming, in intensity and duration. So would a press-narrative that scapegoats Manuel for undermining Perez, which is true though certainly hugely over-simplistic. But that's a long road home.

seawolf17 Nov 30 2010 07:36 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

The only way it affects attendance is if he throws a no-hitter in one of those first two starts. If he pitches well enough in the spring to earn a spot, then I'll support him. If he pitches well enough in the spring to earn a spot and then has two solid starts on the road, then I'll support him. If he pitches well enough in the spring to earn a spot, then gets lit up in his first two starts, then I'll get my pitchfork and flaming torch ready for his homecoming.

Ceetar Nov 30 2010 07:39 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

seawolf17 wrote: The only way it affects attendance is if he throws a no-hitter in one of those first two starts. If he pitches well enough in the spring to earn a spot, then I'll support him. If he pitches well enough in the spring to earn a spot and then has two solid starts on the road, then I'll support him. If he pitches well enough in the spring to earn a spot, then gets lit up in his first two starts, then I'll get my pitchfork and flaming torch ready for his homecoming. What if he pitches badly and they make that home start "pitchfork giveaway day"?

Centerfield Nov 30 2010 07:39 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

He will never make up for it in my eyes. More than sucking, his refusal to go to the minors was an unforgivable offense for me.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 07:42 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I understand where you're coming from, but it didn't cost the Mets a thing.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 30 2010 07:45 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

It effectively cost them a roster spot. In the long run, given the way 2010 turned out, it probably didn't matter. But at the time, we didn't know that. The Mets were still a contending team until early July. Perez's stubbornness could have been very costly. Anyway, whether the selfishness proved harmful or not, it's not an admirable quality. It certainly can be considered grounds for not liking him.

Ceetar Nov 30 2010 07:50 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Benjamin Grimm wrote: It effectively cost them a roster spot. In the long run, given the way 2010 turned out, it probably didn't matter. But at the time, we didn't know that. The Mets were still a contending team until early July. Perez's stubbornness could have been very costly. Anyway, whether the selfishness proved harmful or not, it's not an admirable quality. It certainly can be considered grounds for not liking him. Except that M went just as long not using Elmer Dessens either. So it's not like he was sitting there wishing he had another pitcher out there. And the Mets brought him back from the minors early for some odd reason.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 07:57 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I think every team has a roster spot dedicated to a relatively ineffective/out of sorts/project pitcher who pitches mopup in situations of little consequence. There's certainly room on the roster for such a guy. The Mets wanted to give that spot to another guy, and he frustrated those plans, but it didn't cost them anything. Jerry being vindictive and avoiding using Ollie in even those spots probably cost them more. If the GM sees fit to keep him on the roster, the manager has a job to get what he can out of him. Ceetar wrote: Except that M went just as long not using Elmer Dessens either. So it's not like he was sitting there wishing he had another pitcher out there. And the Mets brought him back from the minors early for some odd reason. Certainly. Jerry and Omar had a funny thing going with the way the former openly disregarded the players the latter gave him.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 10:40 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Adam Rubin wrote: Just got this from a person familiar with Ollie's winter-ball activity, since obviously velocity is more important than a scoreless-inning streak against Mexican Winter League batters. "Early velocties were 87-89, with an occasional 90 mph, all out of the pen. Starting velocity ... consistent 88 mph, but spikes are higher and more common. They are seeing occasional 91, 92."

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 11:14 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: I think every team has a roster spot dedicated to a relatively ineffective/out of sorts/project pitcher who pitches mopup in situations of little consequence. There's certainly room on the roster for such a guy. . I disagree with this. Or put it this way: if there is a spot on a team's roster for that guy, then the roster's flawed. Teams can't afford that spot anymore ... not in today's "pitch-count" game where it's not unusual for even the winning team to use four pitchers to preserve the win.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 11:17 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Sure they can. And do. As noted above, they weren't using Dessens either. And whether you develop that player into a more useful part of the team or simply save more effective arms by offering him the garbage innings that inevitiably arise, there is a payback for the team. A seemingly playoff bound Mets team carried Aaron Sele all year without giving him a high-leverage inning until the last week.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 11:30 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I wouldn't equate Elmer Dessens or Aaron Sele with Ollie v2010.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 11:33 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

It's not necessary to.

seawolf17 Nov 30 2010 11:40 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think every team has a roster spot dedicated to a relatively ineffective/out of sorts/project pitcher who pitches mopup in situations of little consequence. There's certainly room on the roster for such a guy. . I disagree with this. Or put it this way: if there is a spot on a team's roster for that guy, then the roster's flawed. Teams can't afford that spot anymore ... not in today's "pitch-count" game where it's not unusual for even the winning team to use four pitchers to preserve the win. I agree. If your GM is putting a player on your roster, and your manager is openly saying "I am not using this guy," then every game you lose, you're wasting that spot. That was the most frustrating thing for me with the Ollie/Warthen/Omar/Jerry demographic. If the guy's on your roster, you need to find a way for him (and your team) to be successful. If not, then something needs to give. Either the GM needs to get rid of the player, or if he feels that the player can still contribute, the manager/pitching coach.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 11:48 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2010 11:50 AM

Fine. Don't compare Dessens to Perez. Carrying Perez compromised the Mets ability to compete in 2010. Perez couldn't be trusted. Period. Even when you're down by two or three, you need a dependable pitcher. Otherwise, you're conceding the game before it's over. Dessens was relatively decent. Perez's spot on the roster was unjustifiable. That there were a few one-week or so stretches where Dessens didn't play does not make the case for Perez.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 11:50 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I agree. If your GM is putting a player on your roster, and your manager is openly saying "I am not using this guy," then every game you lose, you're wasting that spot. That was the most frustrating thing for me with the Ollie/Warthen/Omar/Jerry demographic. If the guy's on your roster, you need to find a way for him (and your team) to be successful. If not, then something needs to give. Either the GM needs to get rid of the player, or if he feels that the player can still contribute, the manager/pitching coach. That's my contention. That it was Minaya's place to (a) release Perez, (b) compell Manuel to use him, or (c) replace Manuel with someone willing to do his lord's will. Manuel's stupid doghouse sucked. Perez's spot on the roster was unjustifiable. Manuel appeared to have agreed with you and Minaya not, and I think that was the team's real problem. OE: I suppoe Minaya's superiors could have stripped him of the power to act against either Perez or Manuel.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 11:52 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I'm speculating that Minaya's options were limited by ownership, and that cutting Perez and eating his large salary was not in Minaya's toolbox.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 11:55 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: I agree. If your GM is putting a player on your roster, and your manager is openly saying "I am not using this guy," then every game you lose, you're wasting that spot. That was the most frustrating thing for me with the Ollie/Warthen/Omar/Jerry demographic. If the guy's on your roster, you need to find a way for him (and your team) to be successful. If not, then something needs to give. Either the GM needs to get rid of the player, or if he feels that the player can still contribute, the manager/pitching coach. That's my contention. That it was Minaya's place to (a) release Perez, (b) compell Manuel to use him, or (c) replace Manuel with someone willing to do his lord's will. Manuel's stupid doghouse sucked. Perez's spot on the roster was unjustifiable. Manuel appeared to have agreed with you and Minaya not, and I think that was the team's real problem. OE: I suppoe Minaya's superiors could have stripped him of the power to act against either Perez or Manuel. Whatever. But you're digressing. Because the issue you initially raised, I thought, was not what Minaya ought to have done but whether Perez's roster spot was justified.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 11:57 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Whatever yourself. I wrote the same thing you did and I get "whatever"? Give me a break.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 12:02 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: Whatever yourself. I wrote the same thing you did and I get "whatever"? Give me a break. I'll rewrite my last post. [crossout]Whatever.[/crossout] But you're digressing. Because the issue you initially raised, I thought, was not what Minaya ought to have done but whether Perez's roster spot was justified. The back door politics that enabled Perez to remain on the 25 man roster for as long as he did is irrelevant.

Ceetar Nov 30 2010 12:03 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: Adam Rubin wrote: Just got this from a person familiar with Ollie's winter-ball activity, since obviously velocity is more important than a scoreless-inning streak against Mexican Winter League batters. "Early velocties were 87-89, with an occasional 90 mph, all out of the pen. Starting velocity ... consistent 88 mph, but spikes are higher and more common. They are seeing occasional 91, 92." Did he really say that? Velocity is more important than a scoreless-inning streak? Sure Adam, I don't care if Ollie gets anyone out. if he throws 95 he can have a spot in the rotation no matter the result.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 12:05 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Whatever yourself. I wrote the same thing you did and I get "whatever"? Give me a break. I'll rewrite my last post. [crossout]Whatever.[/crossout] But you're digressing. Because the issue you initially raised, I thought, was not what Minaya ought to have done but whether Perez's roster spot was justified. The back door politics that enabled Perez to remain on the 25 man roster for as long as he did is irrelevant. That's certainly not what I what I wrote.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2010 12:07 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Adam Rubin wrote: Just got this from a person familiar with Ollie's winter-ball activity, since obviously velocity is more important than a scoreless-inning streak against Mexican Winter League batters. "Early velocties were 87-89, with an occasional 90 mph, all out of the pen. Starting velocity ... consistent 88 mph, but spikes are higher and more common. They are seeing occasional 91, 92." Did he really say that? Velocity is more important than a scoreless-inning streak? Sure Adam, I don't care if Ollie gets anyone out. if he throws 95 he can have a spot in the rotation no matter the result. How he's throwing-- whether or not the fastball looks good, whether or not he's locating, whether or not the velocity's back at all-- is more important than the result, IOW. It's a fair sentiment (think Spring Training).

Edgy MD Nov 30 2010 12:10 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

And he made it clear that the issue was in part that it was a scoreless inning streak against Mexican League batters, and he wasn't so much opining on his own behalf, but speaking on behalf of what scouts, the Mets, and the questioner was concerned with.

Ceetar Nov 30 2010 12:17 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: And he made it clear that the issue was in part that it was a scoreless inning streak against Mexican League batters, and he wasn't so much opining on his own behalf, but speaking on behalf of what scouts, the Mets, and the questioner was concerned with. The fastball looking good, the changing speeds, setting up batters, etc. All more important than the velocity, and I think the K-rate and the swinging strike rate are more representative of whether he'll be successful again than a gun reading. But if he's hitting spiking to 91-92, frequently, that does speak to building arm strength and getting up there more consistantly, something Warthen and Manuel rarely let him do. (pulling him early in spring training games even) but Ollie's problem has always been consistency. can he repeat that d elivery to consistantly throw 92? Or is he goign to follow up a 80mph changeup with a poor throw that becomes an 88mph fastball and doesn't quite have the mph difference to be as effective? Also, I've never seen a real answer to the question of what he's throwing. gameday and fangraphs and whatnot were classifying some of his 87ish pitches as cutters, and his 91ish as fastballs. is he tricking the system with bad mechanics? (which, if it's the case, makes me extremely skeptical of that data in any analysis at all) or is he actually trying to throw a different pitch?

seawolf17 Nov 30 2010 12:48 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

By the way, when the hell was Aaron Sele a Met? I think you made that up.

Edgy MD Jan 04 2011 09:51 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

So, Ollie finished 3-3, 5.18 in 11 games (six starts) over 33 innings --- just bad enough to be dis-spiriting, but within the realm of rationalizing the overall numbers away and looking for hope between the numbers. If you need that. Culiacan is in a seven game playoff series now, so we'll see if he gets another shot.

Rockin' Doc Jan 05 2011 05:44 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

I hope I am wrong, but I have given up all hope of Oliver Perez ever again being a useful member of the Mets pitching staff. He hurt the team last season with his poor performance and compounded that by refusing to accept a minor league assignment to try to work on his arm strength and mechanics where it would not continue to hurt the Mets chances to win games. With his poor performance and recalcitrant attitude, I believe he has made it all but impossible to trade him for anything of value. I say, give him a shot in spring training, if his performance isn't good a enough to warrant a roster spot , then admit your mistake and cut him lose (if he won't accept an assignment to Buffalo).

Ceetar Jan 05 2011 06:50 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: So, Ollie finished 3-3, 5.18 in 11 games (six starts) over 33 innings --- just bad enough to be dis-spiriting, but within the realm of rationalizing the overall numbers away and looking for hope between the numbers. If you need that. Culiacan is in a seven game playoff series now, so we'll see if he gets another shot. Decent K rate as well. Culican is up 3-0 with the 4th game tonight so maybe he'll make an apperance. if he pitches poorly, I'm sure Rubin will tweet it. Sounds like they're making the second round anyway.

Ceetar Jan 05 2011 08:56 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Leadoff groundball double to left for Perez to Heber Gomez. Tim Raines (Did he go to Mexico when he didn't get to go to Cooperstown?) Jr bunts him over, sac fly for the run. second inning features 2K, 2BB. the Tomato's hit a grand slam and chase the opposing pitcher from the game. If Perez can get through five, he'll be the winning pitcher for the first round playoff clincher. Third inning features another leadoff double to Heber Gomez, two line outs to CF, walk, passed ball, walk, K with the bases loaded to escape unscathed. fourth inning, K, BB, single, out, K That's 5K, 3H, and 5BB and 1 ER through 4IP.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2011 09:02 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Runs, no runs, whatever. That's a ridiculous 1:1 K:BB ratio. That's about what he's been putting up during his entire time there. That's the kind of ratio AJ Burnett makes light of over beers with his friends Scott Kazmir and Dice-K at T.G.I. BaseonBalls.

Ceetar Jan 06 2011 09:46 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Runs, no runs, whatever. That's a ridiculous 1:1 K:BB ratio. That's about what he's been putting up during his entire time there. That's the kind of ratio AJ Burnett makes light of over beers with his friends Scott Kazmir and Dice-K at T.G.I. BaseonBalls. Burnett's making more money though. I'm looking forward to him putting up those numbers for years. Yeah, it's horribly ridiculous (he let up a walk and a hit in the 5th and was pulled btw, but I went to bed) I don't know what to make of Winter Ball. I do like that he's striking out guys again, even if they are the Ruben Riveras of the world. But his walks seem to have even gotten worse. I also have no idea about the strike zone or the defense there. he gave up a lead off double that was listed as a groundball to left. Did it slowly roll through a badly defended SS hole that wouldn't happen with Reyes there or did the LFer misplay it or something?

Edgy MD Nov 24 2011 08:45 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Ollie back with the Tomateros in 2011 W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG 0 0 0.00 6 0 0 0 0 4.0 2 0 0 0 1 1 0.83 .143 Happy Thanksgiving, O-Town.

Edgy MD Dec 20 2011 08:48 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Rubin wrote: In 17 relief appearances with Culiacan in Mexico, Oliver Perez has 0.00 ERA, 4 H, 7 BB, 15 K in 12 IP. Opponents hitting .103 (lefties .091).

Ceetar Dec 20 2011 09:07 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

This is a big part of why I don't follow him.

Edgy MD Dec 20 2011 09:27 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Well, I was certainly following Ollie before Rubin gave that summary.

Ceetar Dec 20 2011 09:30 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Edgy DC wrote: Well, I was certainly following Ollie before Rubin gave that summary. I expect Rubin will give AB by AB updates on Reyes through at least most of the season next year too.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 20 2011 09:50 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Ruby's getting real sour with his coverage lately. He doesn't need to affect a pissed-off posture just because the news he reports is bad.

Rockin' Doc Dec 21 2011 11:04 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ruby's getting real sour with his coverage lately. He doesn't need to affect a pissed-off posture just because the news he reports is bad. Yeah, we're pissed off enough already.

Edgy MD Jan 18 2012 09:32 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

Ollie signs a minor league deal with the Mariners. Camp invite included. Still only 30.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 18 2012 09:36 PM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

That's why they traded Pineda to the MFYs.

Fman99 Jan 19 2012 06:00 AM Re: A Tomato Thrower with the Tomato Growers

He will give up home runs, even in that park. BUM.