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2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

TransMonk Nov 29 2010 02:17 PM

Roberto Alomar Carlos Baerga Jeff Bagwell Harold Baines Bert Blyleven Bret Boone Kevin Brown John Franco Juan Gonzalez Marquis Grissom Lenny Harris Bobby Higginson Charles Johnson Barry Larkin Al Leiter Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Don Mattingly Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Raul Mondesi Jack Morris Dale Murphy John Olerud Rafael Palmeiro Dave Parker Tim Raines Kirk Rueter Benito Santiago Lee Smith B.J. Surhoff Alan Trammell Larry Walker

Edgy DC Nov 29 2010 02:20 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

A lot of solid players.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 29 2010 02:21 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Is this the first time around for Bagwell?

seawolf17 Nov 29 2010 02:22 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I thought we already did this, no? Anyway, here are my ten. (I always vote for ten.) Roberto Alomar Bert Blyleven Barry Larkin Edgar Martinez Jack Morris Dale Murphy Dave Parker Tim Raines Alan Trammell Larry Walker Bagwell was my last cut.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 29 2010 02:30 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Me, I would never vote for ten. At most, one or two.

G-Fafif Nov 29 2010 02:30 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

The parochial perspective: Roberto Alomar: Met Carlos Baerga: Met Bret Boone: Brief Spring Training Met Kevin Brown: Same Name as Met John Franco: Met Juan Gonzalez: Rumored Met Lenny Harris: Met Bobby Higginson: Rumored Met Charles Johnson: Paper Met Barry Larkin: Vetoed Met Al Leiter: Met John Olerud: Met Rafael Palmeiro: Drafted Met Benito Santiago: Late Career Minor League Met B.J. Surhoff: Pursued by Mets as Free Agent

Vic Sage Nov 29 2010 02:31 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Jan 05 2011 10:16 AM

[u:200erkvo]Yes:[/u:200erkvo] Roberto Alomar Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Barry Larkin Bert Blyleven [u:200erkvo]Would have said "Yes", But...[/u:200erkvo] Rafael Palmeiro * Mark McGwire * [u:200erkvo]borderline:[/u:200erkvo] Edgar Martinez ** Larry Walker Alan Trammell Lee Smith Jack Morris Dale Murphy Dave Parker Fred McGriff [u:200erkvo]Pros, but no:[/u:200erkvo] John Franco Don Mattingly Kevin Brown Juan Gonzalez * Harold Baines ** John Olerud Carlos Baerga Bret Boone Al Leiter Tino Martinez Benito Santiago [u:200erkvo]Bye:[/u:200erkvo] Raul Mondesi Marquis Grissom Lenny Harris Bobby Higginson Charles Johnson Kirk Rueter B.J. Surhoff * = steroids ** = DH

Edgy DC Nov 29 2010 02:35 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm giong with Kirk Rueter and him alone.

TransMonk Nov 29 2010 02:46 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

seawolf17 wrote: I thought we already did this, no? Accoring to Yahoo!, the official ballot was just announced today. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=a ... fameballot My list is very close to Vic's, but I let Edgar Martinez in.

Vic Sage Nov 29 2010 02:54 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I would vote in Martinez, too... i just think he'll be wrongly penalized for playing the position they assigned to him. He'll at least have to wait a while.

Valadius Nov 29 2010 02:56 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Is this the first time around for Bagwell? Yes.

Vic Sage Nov 29 2010 03:12 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

listed by HOF monitor ranking (>100 = likely HOFer) Roberto Alomar - 194 Rafael Palmeiro * - 178 Mark McGwire * - 170 Jeff Bagwell - 150 Larry Walker - 147 Lee Smith*** - 135 Don Mattingly - 134 Edgar Martinez ** - 132 Dave Parker - 124 John Franco*** - 124 Jack Morris - 122 Bert Blyleven - 120 Juan Gonzalez * - 120 Barry Larkin - 118 Alan Trammell - 118 Dale Murphy - 116 Fred McGriff -100 --- Benito Santiago - 94 Kevin Brown - 93 Tim Raines - 90 * = steroids ** = DH *** = reliever

Vic Sage Nov 29 2010 03:15 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

[u:ves35the]my short list:[/u:ves35the] new guys -- alomar / bagwell holdovers -- Blyleven / Raines

sharpie Nov 29 2010 03:26 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

My list and Vic's short list are the same.

Gwreck Nov 29 2010 03:32 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar Bagwell Blyleven Edgar Martinez McGwire Palmeiro Raines

Gwreck Nov 29 2010 03:34 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Vic Sage wrote: * = steroids I'm sorry, how do you know that Juan Gonzalez used steroids but Roberto Alomar did not?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 29 2010 03:38 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm more "meh" on Gonzalez because his offensive value was good-not-great, and he added nothing defensively or on the basepaths. Roberto Alomar Jeff Bagwell Bert Blyleven Barry Larkin Edgar Martinez Mark McGwire Tim Raines Alan Trammell If it's to be a big Hall, let's get everyone in there that should be there, eh? Taking defense into account, Larkin is maybe a top-5 shortstop, all-time, and Trammell slouches toward the top 10.

Rockin' Doc Nov 29 2010 05:02 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I would vote for Alomar, Bagwell, Raines, Blyleven, and Walker.

Ashie62 Nov 29 2010 05:09 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar McGriff McGwire

Edgy DC Nov 29 2010 05:31 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Gwreck wrote: Vic Sage wrote: * = steroids I'm sorry, how do you know that Juan Gonzalez used steroids but Roberto Alomar did not? Gonzalez has some damning but not conclusive evidence against him in the Mitchell Report.

Frayed Knot Nov 29 2010 06:29 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Roberto Alomar Jeff Bagwell Bert Blyleven Tim Raines I'm betting that neither Alomar or Bagwell gets in this time although both eventually will. Both are first-timers and between the stupid phobia some voters have against newbies and the stunted end of the careers for both of them I think they'll be made to wait. Maybe that opens things up for Blyleven & Raines, I dunno.

Gwreck Nov 29 2010 06:32 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar was a first-timer last year and missed by like 8 votes or something.

Gwreck Nov 29 2010 06:34 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Me, I would never vote for ten. At most, one or two. Who would you have left out in 1999? Ryan, Yount, Brett or Fisk?

Frayed Knot Nov 29 2010 06:36 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Gwreck wrote: Alomar was a first-timer last year and missed by like 8 votes or something. In that case he probably does make it.

Gwreck Nov 29 2010 06:45 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I seem to recall Marty N. following your predicted outcome exactly -- he planned to vote for Alomar, but not in the first year. (Although I think he wanted to "wait" because of the spitting incident).

Gwreck Nov 29 2010 06:56 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: Gonzalez has some damning but not conclusive evidence against him in the Mitchell Report. Well sure, but that doesn't answer the original question. Disclaimer: I know I bring up this argument, or a variant thereof, on an annual basis in this thread. But so long as we're assigning asterisks I don't think it's out of place.

Edgy DC Nov 29 2010 07:06 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

You take what you know and draw conclusions with it, just like every year. Alomar is immaterial as to what is known about Gonzalez.

metsguyinmichigan Nov 29 2010 07:31 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Gwreck wrote: Vic Sage wrote: * = steroids I'm sorry, how do you know that Juan Gonzalez used steroids but Roberto Alomar did not? Because Roberto Alomar was a Met. No Mets has used steroids, and every Yankee does. I live in a very happy little world.

Valadius Nov 29 2010 07:38 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

My ballot: Alomar Bagwell Blyleven Larkin E. Martinez McGwire Palmeiro Raines Trammell Walker Unfortunately, thanks to the stinginess of Hall voters, we've got a very crowded ballot. It's going to get even worse when the mega-class of two years from now comes up and we haven't put a big chunk of the players up this year in - some deserving names will likely fall off the ballot altogether. Fortunately, nobody up for the first time next year is Hall-worthy.

Fman99 Nov 29 2010 07:45 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar Bagwell Raines Blyleven I'm looking forward to Alomar's induction, when he spits on Lou Brock and gives an STD to the lukewarm corpse of Ernie Banks.

Ashie62 Nov 29 2010 07:51 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

oh dear...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2010 09:34 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Can someone in the Palmeiro camp make his case for me? Very good for a while, with nice counting stats... but at an offensively-loaded position, in a very offensively-loaded era, and with little else to recommend him (yes, he's got Gold Gloves... but he was no great fielder; no other outstanding positive asterisks, either). He seems borderline at best even before one takes potential heavy PED use into account.

Edgy DC Nov 30 2010 09:45 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Seemed to have modest Keith Hernadez-y power at the start of his career and then WHAMMO!

G-Fafif Nov 30 2010 10:05 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

If someone handed me a ballot with John Olerud's name on it (for anything, not just baseball), I'd have a very hard time not placing next to it: • A check mark • A smiley face (adorned with hard hat) • And an aaahhh... It's the same principle that would likely keep me from ever voting for Roberto Alomar, except the pleasant inverse. I'd also be the guy who throws one vote Lenny Harris's way in deference to pinch-hitters everywhere. The rest, personally, is que sera, sera territory. By the way, I thought the waiting period was five years, yet Franco, Leiter and Olerud were all Mets about five minutes ago. What the hell?

Gwreck Nov 30 2010 10:26 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Can someone in the Palmeiro camp make his case for me? Very good for a while, with nice counting stats... but at an offensively-loaded position, in a very offensively-loaded era, and with little else to recommend him (yes, he's got Gold Gloves... but he was no great fielder; no other outstanding positive asterisks, either). He seems borderline at best even before one takes potential heavy PED use into account. Palmeiro is not a "potential" PED user; he was caught and suspended. But let's leave that aside for the time being. No doubt his "counting stats" are his main asset but I am hesitant to attach a negative connotation to them. His career WAR and career OPS+ aren't at the top of the career leaderboard, but they also aren't out of line with other HOF players (and not just the borderline ones, either). As for those counting stats, they are impressive. Perhaps less so in the context of the era, but he's still at the top of the heap and I do think that playing at a high level for a long time means something. --- Now, as for how he was able to play well for so long? I'm quite sure that will keep him out of the HOF.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 10:33 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Did Prince just exclude John Franco from the Hall? Not that there's anything wrong with excluding John, but I figured that if it's up to Prince, Matt Franco and Julio Franco also get in. Put me down for one more smiley for Olerud.

G-Fafif Nov 30 2010 11:05 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Did Prince just exclude John Franco from the Hall? Not that there's anything wrong with excluding John, but I figured that if it's up to Prince, Matt Franco and Julio Franco also get in. Put me down for one more smiley for Olerud. John Franco got two John Franco Days already. Anything else would be anticlimax.

Vic Sage Nov 30 2010 11:46 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Can someone in the Palmeiro camp make his case for me? Very good for a while, with nice counting stats... but at an offensively-loaded position, in a very offensively-loaded era, and with little else to recommend him (yes, he's got Gold Gloves... but he was no great fielder; no other outstanding positive asterisks, either). He seems borderline at best even before one takes potential heavy PED use into account. from Baseball reference: Gray Ink = 183 (Average HOFer ? 144) Hall of Fame Monitor = 178 (Likely HOFer ? 100) Hall of Fame Standards = 57 (Average HOFer ? 50) Similar Batters: Frank Robinson (887) * Eddie Murray (885) * Ken Griffey (861) Dave Winfield (836) * Reggie Jackson (825) * Gary Sheffield (821) Mel Ott (812) * Manny Ramirez (788) Al Kaline (787) * Fred McGriff (776) * - Signifies Hall of Famer I don't know, these different rankings seem to indicate a clear-cut HOFer to me.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 30 2010 12:18 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Fairly or not, Palmiero is gonna get more scrutiny than most for the roids thing for at least 2 reasons: 1) His physical transformation from his 97-pound weakling Cubs rookie days was as dramatic as any except maybe Bonds' 2) He literally was a spokesman for "performance enhancement" with that whole Viagra thing, and when combined with the Mitchell revelations, really paints him as less of a man in so many ways. I think he has no shot till after most voters of today are dead and buried.

metirish Nov 30 2010 12:23 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar for me is a HOF.... Can one vote in say Bagwell but not Walker?

G-Fafif Nov 30 2010 12:25 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

metirish wrote: Can one vote in say Bagwell but not Walker? Only if you want Larry Walker to fix you with the evil eye.

seawolf17 Nov 30 2010 12:50 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Walker's painted with the Colorado brush, apparently. Todd Helton's going to run into that too someday. I have a hard time with big slugging first basemen and the Hall. The "fear" factor is important to me; I don't know that I was ever afraid of Rafael Palmeiro in a big spot, or even Bagwell for that matter. Walker? Yes. There is ZERO chance Palmeiro ever gets within sniffing distance of 75% of the voting population.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2010 12:55 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

metirish wrote: Alomar for me is a HOF.... Can one vote in say Bagwell but not Walker? Tasty 7-year peak (with 1994-- 39 HR, .750 slugging, and a ridiculous 300 TB in 400 AB-- as the peak of that), with 6-7 nice years as bookends before his injury-riddled victory lap. Walker was almost as nice for mini-stretches, and put up 2-3 years that rival Bagwell's '94... but the injuries (in a career three years longer than Bagwell, he put up almost a thousand fewer PAs) and the fact that all of his peak took place in pre-humidor Coors make it real tough to take those numbers seriously, don't they? Bagwell had a better career OBP (.408 to .400), and put up similar Isolated Power numbers (.252 to ..243) in a less-run-friendly environment. I think it's close, but Bags is on the right side of the borderline in my mind.

Edgy DC Nov 30 2010 12:57 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

seawolf17 wrote: I have a hard time with big slugging first basemen and the Hall. The "fear" factor is important to me; I don't know that I was ever afraid of Rafael Palmeiro in a big spot, or even Bagwell for that matter. Walker? Yes. Well, to be fair, he only played 10 games against the Mets after he left the Cubs in the 1988-1989 offseason. How do folks feel about Gallaraga?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2010 01:00 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Nice guy. Shook my hand once at the Vet. Manos de carne, lemmetellya. I have him on the Tony Perez shelf. And Tony Perez isn't a HOFer in my mind.

G-Fafif Nov 30 2010 01:05 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Saw him hit a homer off Pulsipher (in his second go-round) that I swear flew by me from my seat in the first row of Mezzanine. He was invited to Omar's first Spring Training and then retired as not quite a Met. Regarding HOF, he scared the hell out of me. I'd have put him in the Hall just to get him out of the batter's box.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2010 01:08 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: and the fact that all of his peak took place in pre-humidor Coors make it real tough to take those numbers seriously, don't they? I wouldn't vote for a pre-humidor Rockie unless his unadjusted numbers rivaled Willie Mays'.

Edgy DC Nov 30 2010 01:19 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I wrote a letter to him that spring. Dear Mr. Gallaraga, You've been in the league for 20 years and only now, that you've been invite to spring training for my favorite team, do I realize how shockingly enormous your arms are. It's simply unsettling. I wake up scared to know your arms are even out there somewhere. Please don't hurt me. Love, Edgy

Edgy DC Nov 30 2010 01:42 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Oh no, somebody got him angry.

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2010 02:14 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

The consensus of most baseball folks is that of course McGwire deserves to be in *If Not For* ... -- while Bagwell is going to be looked at more cautiously by many and outright dismissed by some. But if I were to offer you an exact clone of each - meaning you get the same strengths, same weaknesses, same injury histories, same career length, etc. - and say he's your starting 1B for the rest of his career, who would you take? The only stats McGwire leads in are HRs & SLG. Bags racked up ~1,700 more PAs & ABs, 700 more hits, 350 more runs scored, nearly doubled Big Mac in doubles while triples & SBs weren't even a contest. He walked more (even IWs!), struck out less, and had advantages in BA (35 pts) and OBA (14 pts) - and then we can throw in the edges in fielding (huge) and base-running (also real big - above and beyond just the SBs). I've been of the opinion for many years now that I'd prefer to have Jeff Bagwell v2.0 than the McGwire clone and I'd have a hard time thinking that my HoF ballot would be any different. Not that you can't say 'Both' or 'Neither' in an HoF ballot as opposed to the 'one or the other' choice in this hypothetical exercise, but I'd certainly list Bagwell before I'd list the big redhead and that's without even throwing the steroids thing into the vat.

Edgy DC Nov 30 2010 02:18 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Saves of Baseball McGwire 1 Bagwell 0

metirish Nov 30 2010 02:19 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

More Annoying Big Mac fist pumps Killer Bees music Bees?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2010 03:20 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Bagwell had a theme song? What, did he and Biggio wrestle at VAs for extra cash on the weekends?

seawolf17 Nov 30 2010 05:53 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Jumpin' Jim Bronzell and B. Brian Blair! Good times in the old WWF days.

Valadius Dec 02 2010 10:15 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Well, I'm not content to just let this thread slide off the front page. I'm willing to defend Larry Walker's Hall credentials up and down. Yes, he played in Colorado during his most productive years, but unless you can prove there were steroids in the air at Coors Field, the altitude in Denver is as much a part of baseball as the Green Monster, the wind in Candlestick Park, or the Astrodome. It's a ballpark feature. Deal with it. The fact is, Larry Walker was a pretty complete player. He hit for average, he hit for power, he was a very good right fielder (check his range factor numbers and assists), and he even knew how to steal a base. Yes, injuries hurt him. Yes, he walked away from baseball without all his counting stats in order at the age of 38. But as I look back on it, there wasn't a hitter I personally feared more in the late '90s in the National League than Larry Walker. He's a Hall of Famer in my book.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 02 2010 10:21 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

So, in essence, he's Dave Parker minus the drug problem, playing in the run-inflation capital of a run-inflation era.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 02 2010 10:28 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Plus, him and his Coors screwed Piazza out of an MVP. Okay ... so it was the Chavez Ravine Piazza. Still. Screw Larry.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2010 07:25 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

... the altitude in Denver is as much a part of baseball as the Green Monster, the wind in Candlestick Park, or the Astrodome. It's a ballpark feature. Deal with it. Bringing the Coors Field effect into the discussion IS dealing with it. That doesn't mean his accomplishments should be dismissed on account of where he played, only that they should be examined as to the context.

The Second Spitter Dec 04 2010 06:18 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

batmagadanleadoff wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: and the fact that all of his peak took place in pre-humidor Coors make it real tough to take those numbers seriously, don't they? I wouldn't vote for a pre-humidor Rockie unless his unadjusted numbers rivaled Willie Mays'. I don't know. Personally I'm disinclined to attribute Helton's pre-humidor doubles numbers to the Mile-High club.

Edgy DC Dec 04 2010 08:52 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I don't get it. The math is in place to adjust the numbers accordingly, and it's easy enough to use. We shouldn't be arguing in 2010 whether to embrace the numbers at face value or throw them out entirely.

MFS62 Dec 05 2010 01:29 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: I don't get it. The math is in place to adjust the numbers accordingly, and it's easy enough to use. We shouldn't be arguing in 2010 whether to embrace the numbers at face value or throw them out entirely. Interesting point. I wonder if anyone has used the new numbers to reexamine the numbers of players already elected who played in bandboxes such as Baker Bowl, Ebbets Field and Crosley Field. Later

Edgy DC Dec 05 2010 02:45 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Sure they have. Bill James was doing it decades ago.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2010 03:07 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

In fact, you can now click a button on a player's baseball-reference.com profile and see what his stats would look like projected to a neutral run-scoring environment. Take Jose Cruz. You knew he was an All-Star, but his numbers in the Astrodome of the seventies and eighties look pretty pedestrian. Click-click, and you see a neutral world projection of someone with the badass career we know Jose really had. Source BA OPB SLG OPS H HR RBI Real .284 .354 .420 .774 2,251 165 1,077 Fake .304 .376 .449 .825 2,547 189 1,267

Edgy DC Dec 05 2010 03:16 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Consider Chuck Klein on the other hand, a Hall-of-Famer piling up excellent stats for losing teams in the Baker Bowl and, for a few years, Wrigley. He was a heckuva player, but not quite the slugger his baseball card suggested. Source BA OPB SLG OPS H HR RBI Real .320 .379 .543 .922 2,076 300 1,201 Fake .304 .362 .515 .876 2,024 291 1,113

MFS62 Dec 05 2010 03:20 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Thanks. Didn't know that was available. Later

Edgy DC Dec 05 2010 03:46 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

You're welcome. And as to the point we're discussing, Larry Walker looks like this. Source BA OPB SLG OPS H HR RBI Real .313 .400 .565 .965 2,160 383 1,311 Fake .299 .384 .539 .924 2,092 365 1,175 Still a damn fine player in any era or home.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 05 2010 05:24 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Larry Walker's lifetime batting average at home was 70 points higher than his career road average. Seventy points. Lifetime. His home HR total is almost 30% greater than his career road total. Here's Larry Walker's career home/road splits: If I was only permitted to look at Walker's road stats, without knowing that they were Walker's stats, I'd guess that this was a fine player ... a player who, at his peak, was an all-star for a few years and perhaps, even MVP caliber. There are dozens and dozens of players that fit this description but don't belong in the HOF. I think that Walker gets in. I'm not sure that I would vote for him, if I had a vote.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 05 2010 06:49 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 05 2010 08:11 PM

Compare Larry Walker's road stats to the road stats of six modern players that are familiar to everyone on this forum: "su" "tu" "ae" "ee" "kd" "nd"

Nymr83 Dec 05 2010 07:27 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

coming late to the party here... I'd put these guys in... Roberto Alomar Jeff Bagwell Bert Blyleven Barry Larkin Tim Raines Alan Trammell and I'd want more time to think about McGwire, Walker and E.Martinez

Edgy DC Dec 05 2010 07:40 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Hey, Nymr's back.

metirish Dec 06 2010 08:14 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Gillick the only one elected today by Vet committee....

batmagadanleadoff Dec 06 2010 08:31 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Compare Larry Walker's road stats to the road stats of six modern players that are familiar to everyone on this forum: Road stats below, identified: Moises Alou Rusty Staub Shawn Green Joe Torre Frank Howard John Olerud To me, what stands out most about Walker's career is his run of batting averages from 1997-2001: .366/.363/.379/.309/.350 - an amazing run, evocative of what the back of Honus Wagner's baseball cards would've read, Wagner permitting and all, and also assuming that the tobacco companies deigned to put stats on the back of their cards. Of course, Walker played in a park that inflated offense to an absurd cartoonish extreme: over the course of a season, a player gained about one point of batting average for every game played in pre-humidor Coors, on average. On average includes all batters, even the pitchers.

Vic Sage Dec 06 2010 09:50 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

a guy who, in over 4000 PAs, put up an tOPS+ of 80 on the road is not HOF worthy. the fact that his overall stats were of such magnitude just shows the park effect he benefited from. i think the comparable players you've identified solidify the point that he was an excellent player who falls just short of HOF, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation but for the Coors effect.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Dec 06 2010 09:58 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

tOPS is just relative to the other side of the split, though. That .865 OPS on the road is pretty great. Not sure about hall-worthy, but pretty great, anyway.

Edgy DC Dec 06 2010 11:59 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Yeah, everybody's tOPS+ at home and on the road is going to pretty much add up 200.

metirish Dec 06 2010 01:29 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Heyman has a vote for the HOF , he has spent the weekend making jokes on twitter about the likes of Lenny Harris on the ballot, no class.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 07 2010 08:26 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

[Walker's] .865 OPS on the road is pretty great. Not sure about hall-worthy, but pretty great, anyway. It's an awesome number. An .865 career OPS would put a player --especially an outfielder-- in the company of mostly stellar, though non- HOF'ers. Most HOF'ers with a career OPS close to. 865 have mitigating circumstances. Bill Dickey (.868) was a catcher; John McGraw (.876) played in the deadball era and was one of baseball's greatest managers; Jesse Burkett (.861) was also a deadballer. Kevin Mitchell's career OPS is .880; Jason Bay's is .882. David Wright is firmly in HOF territory OPS-wise (.899 career). The lowest OPS' for a modern (post WWII) HOF outfielder are: Lou Brock -- .753 (Brock's 39.1 lifetime WAR is even lamer for a HOF'er) Robin Yount -- .772 (also played shortstop) Richie Ashburn -- .779 Andre Dawson -- .806 The highest OPS' for a modern (post WWII) HOF outfielder (but < .865, Walker's career road OPS) are: Al Kaline -- .855 Jim Rice -- .854 Billy Williams -- .853 Tony Gwynn -- .847 Walker's career OPS of .965 places him in the company of the game's greatest, for the most part --it's 16th all-time. Also in the top 20 all-time OPS are: fellow Coors Crusher Todd Helton (.979 -- 11th place, anybody else see a pattern here, or are Walker and Helton two of the game's inner circle greatest?); Jim Thome (.963 -- 17th place); Lance Berkman (.954 -- 20th place). Here are two more modern road stat comps for Larry Walker: Jose Canseco Jack Clark Walker's career WAR, 67.3, is higher than HOFer's: Eddie Murray (66.7, 3,000+ hits) Gary Carter (66.3, greatest defensive catcher of his generation) Willie McCovey (65.1) Ozzie Smith (64.6) Ernie Banks (64.4) Harmon Killebrew (61.1)

Valadius Dec 07 2010 09:09 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Philly writer Bill Conlin wins the Spink Award, elected to the Hall of Fame.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2010 09:18 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Gary Carter (66.3, greatest defensive catcher of his generation) Here's a vote for Bob Boone, who only got better with time, while Carter was never really a defensive star with the Mets. Seaver raved about Carlton Fisk.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 07 2010 03:29 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: Here's a vote for Bob Boone, who only got better with time, while Carter was never really a defensive star with the Mets. Seaver raved about Carlton Fisk. Grote, Bench and Fisk: Seaver pitched to the best of them.

Ashie62 Dec 07 2010 07:31 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Fred McGriff .886 career OPS Career WAR 50.5.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2010 07:34 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Baseball-Reference supports you, however, and gives Carter more defensive win shares than Boone or Fisk (or Munson or any other catchers coming up around that time). I don't particularly agree with their methodology (Jerry Grote gets a negative number), but they probably have them in more or less the correct order. They give Carter a net 10.0 defensive WaRs, 10.9 as an Expo, -0.8 as a Met, -0.1 as a Giant, and 0.0 as a Dodger. I imagine a tiny fraction of that is at positions other than catcher, but still.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 30 2010 10:15 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

One day to go in the voting, so it seems about time for some brain-bending "here's how I'm voting" columns. Hey, you, the cheery guy in the corner! Jeff Pearlman, step on up! And disagreeing with a markedly superior pal, too? Sure! But, alas, Joe’s still right—perhaps Jeff Bagwell never used. Perhaps, as dozens upon dozens of his teammates turned to steroids and HGH throughout the 1990s and early 2000s (Reality: No two teams in baseball had more PED connections than the Texas Rangers and the Houston Astros), Bagwell looked the other way and continued to pop his GNC-supplied Vitamin C tablets. Maybe, just maybe, that happened. But, as the game was being ruined in his very clubhouse, where was Bagwell’s voice of protest? Where was Jeff Bagwell, one of the best players in baseball, when someone inside the game needed to speak out and demand accountability? Answer: Like nearly all of his peers, he was nowhere. He never uttered a word, never lifted a finger (Now, once he retired, he was more than willing to defend himself and speak up for the sport. Once he was retired). This, to me, is why we are allowed to suspect Jeff Bagwell and, if we so choose, not vote for him. The baseball players have cast this curse upon themselves—A. By cheating (And the usage of PED was, factually cheating. I don’t care how often you say, ‘It wasn’t outlawed by baseball’ blah blag blah blah. In the United States, the obtaining and usage of HGH and steroids without a proper perscription is illegal. And ‘proper perscription’ does not merely mean one given by a doctor. It means one rightly given by a doctor for a necessary medical condition); B. By not standing up against cheating and doing everything to assure a clean product. If he did use, Jeff Bagwell deliberately sought an advantage over other players—an illegal advantage. If he didn’t use, Jeff Bagwell, stood by and watched his sport morph into WWE nonsense. So, again, Joe’s right: Statistically, Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer. And, on a personal note, he was always an approachable and nice guy. But, dammit, thanks to baseball’s meekness (for lack of a better word), Hall of Fame voters (I’m not one, for the record) have the right to suspect anyone and everyone from the past era. They have the right to view muscles suspiciously; to question a guy putting up six-straight 100-plus RBI seasons in the heat of PED Madness; to wonder why—when, oh, 75 percent of players were using–one extremely succesful, extemely large, extremely muscular man wouldn’t. Did Jeff Bagwell use PED? I don’t know. Do I have the right to hold his era against him? Damn right I do. My head's full of fluid already, so I don't know where to begin with this one. Except, you know, to point out that he should probably take things in a less Glenn Beckian direction next time out. I mean, good gravy.

Nymr83 Dec 30 2010 10:24 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

His argument is only "valid" if he wants to extend it to ALL players and say that nobody from the steroid era gets in because they're all either users or accomplices. Does he want to make that leap? Or just take this lame excuse to not vote for Bagwell?

Edgy DC Dec 31 2010 07:24 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Hey, look! Nymr in the Baseball Forum! In ranking people on how they failed baseball morally on a scale of 1--10 --- 1 being dastardly villains who would undermine the game and forsake their responsilbiities wherever it would advance their own interests, 10 being beatific paladins who would give anything and everything to advance the game and improve it's standing as the virutous cultural enterprise it can be in it's best state --- where do you place the following groups of folks? [list=1:3p95fh35][*:3p95fh35]Established steroid users.[/*:m:3p95fh35] [*:3p95fh35]Players never established as steroid users, but didn't investigate and report on their teammates, despite playing in a steroids-intensive era.[/*:m:3p95fh35] [*:3p95fh35]Reporters who worked in the clubhouses, but didn't investigate and report on their teammates, despite playing in a steroids-intensive era.[/*:m:3p95fh35][/list:o:3p95fh35] Me? I've got to view group three as more culpable than group two. And I've got plenty of guilt left over for the executives who failed to clean up their own clubhouses, and not a small amount for the fans like myself who threw their money after a dirty game. Few of us probably fall below a 5.

Willets Point Dec 31 2010 11:53 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

(Reality: No two teams in baseball had more PED connections than the Texas Rangers and the Houston Astros) How about the New York Yankees, the roidiest team ever to win a World Series? I'd put BALCO's Bay Area customers in San Francisco and Oakland on that list too.

Fman99 Jan 01 2011 06:40 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

One day to go in the voting, so it seems about time for some brain-bending "here's how I'm voting" columns. Hey, you, the cheery guy in the corner! Jeff Pearlman, step on up! And disagreeing with a markedly superior pal, too? Sure! But, alas, Joe’s still right—perhaps Jeff Bagwell never used. Perhaps, as dozens upon dozens of his teammates turned to steroids and HGH throughout the 1990s and early 2000s (Reality: No two teams in baseball had more PED connections than the Texas Rangers and the Houston Astros), Bagwell looked the other way and continued to pop his GNC-supplied Vitamin C tablets. Maybe, just maybe, that happened. But, as the game was being ruined in his very clubhouse, where was Bagwell’s voice of protest? Where was Jeff Bagwell, one of the best players in baseball, when someone inside the game needed to speak out and demand accountability? Answer: Like nearly all of his peers, he was nowhere. He never uttered a word, never lifted a finger (Now, once he retired, he was more than willing to defend himself and speak up for the sport. Once he was retired). This, to me, is why we are allowed to suspect Jeff Bagwell and, if we so choose, not vote for him. The baseball players have cast this curse upon themselves—A. By cheating (And the usage of PED was, factually cheating. I don’t care how often you say, ‘It wasn’t outlawed by baseball’ blah blag blah blah. In the United States, the obtaining and usage of HGH and steroids without a proper perscription is illegal. And ‘proper perscription’ does not merely mean one given by a doctor. It means one rightly given by a doctor for a necessary medical condition); B. By not standing up against cheating and doing everything to assure a clean product. If he did use, Jeff Bagwell deliberately sought an advantage over other players—an illegal advantage. If he didn’t use, Jeff Bagwell, stood by and watched his sport morph into WWE nonsense. So, again, Joe’s right: Statistically, Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer. And, on a personal note, he was always an approachable and nice guy. But, dammit, thanks to baseball’s meekness (for lack of a better word), Hall of Fame voters (I’m not one, for the record) have the right to suspect anyone and everyone from the past era. They have the right to view muscles suspiciously; to question a guy putting up six-straight 100-plus RBI seasons in the heat of PED Madness; to wonder why—when, oh, 75 percent of players were using–one extremely succesful, extemely large, extremely muscular man wouldn’t. Did Jeff Bagwell use PED? I don’t know. Do I have the right to hold his era against him? Damn right I do. My head's full of fluid already, so I don't know where to begin with this one. Except, you know, to point out that he should probably take things in a less Glenn Beckian direction next time out. I mean, good gravy. Great googily moogily, what a line of shit. So, the guy who doesn't get a vote wouldn't vote for the guy who had no public forum accusations of PED use, because he didn't do enough to condemn his friends and coworkers who were cheating? By the way (let me digress), this style of writing (the constant insertion of parentheses) is not only inane and distracting (well, duh!) but also a sign of an inferior intellect (OH SNAP).

Valadius Jan 01 2011 10:52 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I forget, where does one go for that breakdown of already-published Hall ballots?

Vic Sage Jan 01 2011 11:31 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

HBT blogger responds to Pearlman by suggesting that, by the same logic, sportswriters are more culpable than players, and should be stripped of their HOF voting privileges. While he's only being sarcastic, or ironic, or something, to highlight the stupidity of Pearlman's position, I fully support most ideas that strip sportswriters of any kind of privilege. In fact, they should have to buy tickets to get in, too! (also sarcastic, but only sorta). http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_ ... om-voting/

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 01 2011 12:00 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Pearlman seemed to like the steroid era just fine when he was watching it unfurl, and clapping like a caffeinated seal while doing so. (I guess he's not voting for Griffey, either?) It was one of the fantastic baseball moments of my 27 years -- not a man bashing a 500-foot rocket or hitting 98 on the radar. Simple theater. An historic stage. A pair of gladiators. The Colosseum. Griffey and McGwire, the game's two ruling entities, hugging each other at home plate, swinging imaginary bats for effect. Maybe neither one really wanted to be there. Earlier in the day, Griffey answered All-Star questions with all the emotion of a turtle dove. McGwire, the chipper good ol' boy of a season ago, has been mostly cold through '99. No matter: This night they were pacing pack and forth, smiling, Griffey with his hat on backwards, McGwire and Sammy Sosa sitting cross-legged on the grass, two pals who could've been 10 and 15, not 30 and 35. Griffey vs. McGwire. Good vs. Good.

Edgy DC Jan 01 2011 12:14 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

You don't want to be breaking that glass house in the middle of winter.

Valadius Jan 01 2011 01:04 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Never mind, found it. [url]http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/beat/Hall%20of%20Fame/ HOF % Leaderboard through 71 Full Ballots… 95.8 - Alomar 78.9 - Blyleven 71.8 - Larkin 52.1 - Raines 52.1 - J. Morris 42.3 - Bagwell 32.4 - Edgar Martinez 29.6 - Lee Smith 29.6 - Trammell 22.5 - McGwire 15.5 - L.Walker 15.5 - McGriff .9.9 - Palmeiro . 8.5 - D. Murphy . 7.0 - Baines . 5.6 - D. Parker . 4.2 - K. Brown . 4.2 - Mattingly . 4.2 - Juan Gone . 1.4 - John Franco . 1.4 - Pete Rose (Write-in) Top Partial Ballot Leaders… (102 Full/Partials) 76 - Alomar 70 - Blyleven 53 - Larkin

Edgy DC Jan 01 2011 01:34 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Picky people these days. Free Tim Raines.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 01 2011 06:52 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

F'real. Free Trammell and Walker, too. Plus-- since nitpicking is my favorite early-January-baseball-related activity-- Alomar's a shoo-in, but Larkin isn't? I'm pretty sure I'd take Larkin to be my starting all-time shortstop before I'd consider taking Alomar as the same number at second.

Edgy DC Jan 01 2011 07:44 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Hard to fathom, huh? Part of it is attributable to the exposure you get from moving around, coming from a famous family, getting your name in blockbuster trades, and a lot of post-seasoniness. (Try and explain his brother's six All-Star appearnces someday.) But Larkin OPS'd .862 in the post-season, and .950 in his only World Series, and that World Series was an All-Time stunning upset. Eleven All-Star games and three Gold Gloves while fighting an uphill battle against the force of nature that was Ozzie Smith. If he's not one of the top ten all-time shortstops, I don't know what he is.

Valadius Jan 01 2011 08:01 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Latest: HOF % Leaderboard through 79 Full Ballots… 96.2 - Alomar 77.2 - Blyleven 69.6 - Larkin 53.2 - Raines 51.9 - J. Morris 38.0 - Bagwell 31.6 - L. Smith 30.4 - Edgar Martinez 29.1 - Trammell 20.3 - McGwire 16.5 - L.Walker 13.9 - McGriff .8.9 - Palmeiro . 7.6 - D. Murphy . 7.6 - Baines . 6.3 - Mattingly . 6.3 - D. Parker . 3.8 - K. Brown . 3.8 - Juan Gone . 1.3 - John Franco . 1.3 - Pete Rose (Write-in) Top Partial Ballot Leaders… (110 Full/Partials) 84 - Alomar 74 - Blyleven

Edgy DC Jan 01 2011 08:25 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Is there any magic number where you know the consensus is going to tip? Like anybody who gets above X% before their last ballot eventually gets voted in with the 75%? Is it like 60%?

Fman99 Jan 01 2011 09:53 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

How does Trammell get so much less respect than Ozzie Smith? Not enough backflips perhaps?

Valadius Jan 02 2011 07:54 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: Is there any magic number where you know the consensus is going to tip? Like anybody who gets above X% before their last ballot eventually gets voted in with the 75%? Is it like 60%? The only player ever to get more than 60% and not ultimately get voted in is Gil Hodges.

MFS62 Jan 02 2011 09:34 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: Hard to fathom, huh? Part of it is attributable to the exposure you get from moving around, coming from a famous family, getting your name in blockbuster trades, and a lot of post-seasoniness. (Try and explain his brother's six All-Star appearnces someday.) But Larkin OPS'd .862 in the post-season, and .950 in his only World Series, and that World Series was an All-Time stunning upset. Eleven All-Star games and three Gold Gloves while fighting an uphill battle against the force of nature that was Ozzie Smith. If he's not one of the top ten all-time shortstops, I don't know what he is. The only thing I can figure out about that is that the voters are holding the "Next shortstop elected to the Hall" spot open for Jeter. And when he gets in, they will pass a law saying that no more shortstops will ever be admitted to the Hall again. Later

seawolf17 Jan 02 2011 04:30 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: Picky people these days. Free Tim Raines. So true. Fman99 wrote: How does Trammell get so much less respect than Ozzie Smith? Not enough backflips perhaps? Actually? I think you're right. Ozzie got bonus points for the "fame" part.

Frayed Knot Jan 02 2011 05:49 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Guys who are really, really good at one thing tend to get more support than those who are merely good at everything - so Ozzie's defense & McGwire's HRs tend to trump the overall goodness of say Trammel & Bagwell. Now obviously Bagwell's pct - whatever it may be - is going to be higher than Big Red but, IMO, wouldn't be if not for the whole 'roids deal.

Valadius Jan 03 2011 02:54 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Update: John Olerud is going to get at least one vote for the Hall of Fame. HOF % Leaderboard through 84 Full Ballots… 95.2 - Alomar 77.4 - Blyleven 69.0 - Larkin 52.4 - Raines 52.4 - J. Morris 40.5 - Bagwell 31.0 - L. Smith 31.0 - Edgar Martinez 29.8 - Trammell 20.2 - McGwire 15.5 - L.Walker 15.5 - McGriff . 9.5 - Palmeiro . 9.5 - D. Murphy . 7.1 - Baines . 6.0 - Mattingly . 6.0 - D. Parker . 3.6 - K. Brown . 3.6 - Juan Gone . 1.2 - John Franco . 1.2 - Olerud (!) . 1.2 - Pete Rose (Write-in) Top Partial Ballot Leaders… (116 Full/Partials) 88 - Alomar 80 - Blyleven

Nymr83 Jan 03 2011 07:39 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Valadius wrote: Update: John Olerud is going to get at least one vote for the Hall of Fame. I promise I didn't steal a ballot...

Valadius Jan 03 2011 08:58 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Apparently the Olerud voter is John McGrath of the Tacoma (WA) News Tribune.

seawolf17 Jan 04 2011 06:04 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I don't mind hometown voters throwing a token vote to a hometown guy. Sure, it slimes the process a bit, but you know? It's just a game, fellas.

Valadius Jan 04 2011 06:16 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Voting for John Franco this year are Hall of Fame writer Tracy Ringolsby and former Wall Street Journal columnist Fred Klein.

metirish Jan 04 2011 07:01 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

What is this HOF % Leaderboard through 84 Full Ballots…

seawolf17 Jan 04 2011 07:11 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Valadius has broken into HoF headquarters, Watergate-style.

HahnSolo Jan 04 2011 07:12 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

metirish wrote: What is this HOF % Leaderboard through 84 Full Ballots… And since I asked it last year, got an answer, and forgot the answer, What is "Top Partial Ballot Leaders"?

metsmarathon Jan 04 2011 07:12 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

olerud and kevin brown are both way stronger candidates than their one and three votes, respectively, would indicate. way stronger.

Edgy DC Jan 04 2011 07:18 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

HahnSolo wrote: metirish wrote: What is this HOF % Leaderboard through 84 Full Ballots… And since I asked it last year, got an answer, and forgot the answer, What is "Top Partial Ballot Leaders"? I interpret that as a inferred summation of the vote that includes guys who've revealed part of their vote, in addition to those that have revealed all of it.

G-Fafif Jan 04 2011 08:07 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

You know how we were all waiting to learn who Ed Price was voting for? Well forget it! As a reporter, I am naturally in favor of openness. However, from now on, I will no longer reveal my ballot for the National Baseball Hall of Fame. And that is because journalistic principles of fairness trump the desire for openness. As a reporter, Ed Price is in favor of openness. As a voter, Ed Price is in favor of fairness. As a megalomaniac, Ed Price wants you to know what he uses fabric softener on his sheets, but not his towels.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 04 2011 08:34 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

As a reporter, he would like to not be held accountable by fans and peers for his actions. Shameful. A Hall of Fame vote is like a public trust.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 04 2011 10:39 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

"And by 'principles of fairness,' I mean that it isn't fair of you guys to blog about my Hall of Fame vote and how misguided it is when I can't even yell at you guys for how bad your Hall of Fame ballot is."

metirish Jan 04 2011 10:45 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Ed Price - Martyr

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 04 2011 11:06 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

And now that's the mental picture I have of Ed Price. Thanks, Irish! Unlike the annual BBWAA awards, Hall of Fame voting is by secret ballot. And while in the past I have published my vote, I no longer believe I should. And that's because I don't believe it's fair to publicly accuse someone of using PEDs without some evidence. If I reveal my ballot, and it doesn't include an obvious choice, then I am, in effect, accusing that player because I have made it known I will not vote for a player if I believe there was a reasonable chance he used PEDs. So... he won't say or imply under his byline that someone used PEDs, and that therefore that guy won't get his HoF vote. But he WILL allow his "private" accusation to stand as part of the BBWAA final vote/public record. That is, he has no problem with being part of a mass, implicit public accusation of PEDs... just an individual, traceable-back-to-him one. Principled.

Gwreck Jan 04 2011 12:05 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

ESPN had eighteen of their hall of fame voters reveal their ballots (link here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/new ... id=5984898). Check out the ballot of News Editor Barry Stanton, who voted for five (5) players: Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Don Mattingly Jack Morris BJ Surhoff

Frayed Knot Jan 04 2011 12:12 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Gwreck wrote: ESPN had eighteen of their hall of fame voters reveal their ballots (link here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/new ... id=5984898). Check out the ballot of News Editor Barry Stanton, who voted for five (5) players: Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Don Mattingly Jack Morris BJ Surhoff That's why the size of the BBWA membership is similar to that of Congress - so that no one idiot acting alone can do too much damage. Only two of that guy's names (E. Martinez & Morris) are even arguable IMO. I have no idea who Barry Stanton is or what he does at ESPN (besides most likely jerk off to college basketball) but I hope someone in their baseball department beats him up. Maybe Tim Kurkjian can get a step-stool and punch him in the nose.

Vic Sage Jan 04 2011 12:16 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

they should have stockades for such buffoons, and pass out the rotten tomatoes.

Valadius Jan 04 2011 12:20 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Rubin: Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven, Larkin, Morris, Murphy.

Valadius Jan 04 2011 12:28 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

O'Connor: Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Morris, Smith.

Edgy DC Jan 04 2011 12:32 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

ESPN had eighteen of their hall of fame voters reveal their ballots (link here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/new ... id=5984898). Check out the ballot of News Editor Barry Stanton, who voted for five (5) players: Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Don Mattingly Jack Morris BJ Surhoff Today's ballot is brough to you by the letter M.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 04 2011 12:41 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

ESPN had eighteen of their hall of fame voters reveal their ballots (link here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/new ... id=5984898). Check out the ballot of News Editor Barry Stanton, who voted for five (5) players: Edgar Martinez Tino Martinez Don Mattingly Jack Morris BJ Surhoff Where have you heard the name Barry Stanton before? Hmmmm Westchester Journal News editor's memo re sports columnist's resignation From: Freeman, Henry Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:32 PM To: TJN-NEWS-Daily Subject: Resignation Everyone, I wanted to give you a heads up that the following story will appear in tomorrow ' s newspaper. Journal News Column Violates Standards; Columnist Resigns Numerous sentences and phrases that appeared in a Nov. 2 column by The Journal News sports columnist Barry Stanton were identical or similar to those that first appeared in an Oct. 31 column by Joe Posnanski of the Kansas City Star. Both columns told the story of Jake Porter, a mentally challenged football player from McDermott, Ohio, who was allowed by both teams to score a touchdown at the end of a game. The Journal News ethics code and the Gannett Newspaper Division Principles of Ethical Conduct by Newsrooms prohibit plagiarism. Reporters and columnists are expected to include proper attribution in their stories, making it clear when the work is by another journalist or when it is taken from another source. Stanton has resigned from the newspaper. Right after transmitting this message to you, I will be joining DME/Sports Mark Leary to discuss this matter with the sports staff. If anyone has any questions or would like to see copies of the two columns, please drop by my office or see your DME. It is a sad day for all of us that Barry ' s relationship with the newspaper has ended on this note. Henry Posted Monday, November 11, 2002 I guess he didn't want to be seen as copying someone else's work ... again. Jesus, what a tard.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 04 2011 12:54 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Valadius wrote: O'Connor: Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Morris, Smith. Well, he wrote in Jeter, too, I'm sure.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 04 2011 01:54 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

It's like he's deliberately flipping the bird at the HoF with those votes. Stanton would've been a lot better served aping Posnanski this time around: Alomar Bagwell Blyleven Larkin Martinez (Edgar) McGwire Murphy Raines Trammell Walker

Frayed Knot Jan 04 2011 02:25 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Just looking over the numbers for Edgar Martinez - he played only partial seasons at the age of 24, 25, & 26 - totaling less than 250 ABs in those years and just 2 HRs with a modest .336 OBA - played his first full season at age 27 and made a huge jump to a .397 OBA w/40 XBHs - after that his OBA was at least .400 (at times as high as .479 !!) in every season until age 41 with the exception of two injury-shortened years (where he fell to a paltry .366 & .387). Over a 5-year span from 1995 to 1999 his OBA was .455 Got a late start and was only a limited player - but was a great hitter and had a helluva peak.

Edgy DC Jan 04 2011 06:32 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Guys I've Thought Enough About and Have Decided in Favor Of: Bert Blyleven Tim Raines Jeff Bagwell Guys I Thought Some More About and, Yeah, Support Their Candidacies: =#408000]Roberto Alomar --- Overrated fielder, but so was Sandberg. Both are in the top ten MLB secondbasemen of all time. Its relevance is dubious, but the Orioles have been lost in the wilderness ever since his loogy. =#408000]Alan Trammell --- More win shares than Ernie Banks. I'm a big pusher of Trammel and Whitaker. =#408000]Edgar Martinez --- Hard to argue with those OBPs. A lot of thirdbasemen might have been pushed to DH if it was available to them --- Ron Santo, Stan Hack --- but Martinez wasn't really that bad a fielder. Guys I Like but Couldn't Quite Pull the Trigger On: =#FFBF00]Larry Walker --- He had a 130 OPS+ his last year. Another year or two, even playing 100-120 games, might have kicked me over the edge. =#FFBF00]Dave Parker --- Most of his greatness came before he turned 29, then it was like a decade of goodness. Probably tough to be a big guy playing so much on Astroturf. =#FFBF00]Kevin Brown --- It hurts his candidacy with me that I really kinda don't like him. =#FFBF00]Juan Gonzalez --- A little defensive value might have helped him. Guys I Gave Some Thought to and Rejected: =#FF0000]Harold Baines Bret Boone John Franco Don Mattingly Jack Morris Dale Murphy Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Benito Santiago Lee Smith Guys I Gave Almost No Thought to and Rejected: =#FF0000]Carlos Baerga Marquis Grissom Lenny Harris Bobby Higginson Charles Johnson Al Leiter Tino Martinez Raúl Mondesí John Olerud Rafael Palmeiro Kirk Rueter B. J. Surhoff

metsmarathon Jan 04 2011 07:30 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Guys I Gave Some Thought to and Rejected: Harold Baines Bret Boone John Franco Don Mattingly Jack Morris Dale Murphy Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Benito Santiago Lee Smith Guys I Gave Almost No Thought to and Rejected: Carlos Baerga Marquis Grissom Lenny Harris Bobby Higginson Charles Johnson Al Leiter Tino Martinez Raúl Mondesí John Olerud Rafael Palmeiro Kirk Rueter B. J. Surhoff i don't think he should actually get in, but john olerud has the 12th highest WAR on the ballot, per bbref, at 56.8, snuggled between mark mcgwire's 63.1 and crime dog's 50.5. he's got 17 more WAR than mattingly, 19 more than parker. 30 more than benito santiago, and 35 more than brett boone. yet he gets dismissed out of hand. boo.

Edgy DC Jan 04 2011 07:36 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

All I thought about him was that I consider him to be comparable to but not as good as Keith Hernandez. And the world took a good look at Keith and passed. WAR is tricky. There are different formulae for it. Bobby Murcer does terrible by BB-R WAR meaurements, yet Bill James has him as a top-twenty rightfielder.

Valadius Jan 05 2011 05:40 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Overnight update: HOF % Leaderboard through 130 Full BBWAA Ballots… 93.1 - Alomar 79.2 - Blyleven 67.0 - Larkin 50.0 - J. Morris 46.2 - Raines 40.0 - Bagwell 39.2 - L. Smith 32.0 - Edgar Martinez 26.2 - Trammell 20.0 - McGwire 15.4 - McGriff 13.8 - L.Walker 12.3 - Palmeiro . 9.2 - D. Murphy . 6.2 - Mattingly . 5.4 - D. Parker . 4.6 - Baines . 3.1 - K. Brown . 2.3 - Juan Gone . 1.5 - John Franco . 0.8 - Tino . 0.8 - Olerud (!) . 0.8 - Surhoff . 0.8 - Pete Rose (Write-in) Top Partial Ballot Leaders… (160 Full/Partials) 133 - Alomar 121 - Blyleven [url]http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/beat/Hall%20of%20Fame/

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 05 2011 05:44 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Go Barry Larkin. Raines and Martinez ought to be doing better. Trammell too. If I had a vote I'd feel afraid I'd be one of those douchy guys who want to randomly punish Bagwell.

Valadius Jan 05 2011 08:33 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

And one year later, Marty Noble: Marty Noble Ballot: Alomar, Larkin and Dave Parker. A year later, I have voted for Alomar, the best defensive second baseman I've ever seen. I promised to vote for him, and I have, though uncomfortably. I still can't get past Blyleven's 250 losses. That's too many for a 287-game winner, no matter the number of shutouts and strikeouts. Blyleven lost 17 games in his lone 20-win season and lost 10 or more 16 times. In my mind, he produced two, perhaps three Hall of Fame seasons. Not enough.

MFS62 Jan 05 2011 09:10 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I wonder how many of the "I'll never vote for a steroids user" voters voted for Bob Gibson. Yes, he used steroids. And he admitted it. Even did a commercial for them. Y'see, Bob had asthma. And he did a TV ad for a nasal inhalant asthma medicine. They all contain steroids. That's the key ingredient. Of course, its probably on the list of ok steroids for which you can get a medical waiver from the MLB office. But I place that in evidence in the category of "never say never" for those writers who are saying "never". Later

HahnSolo Jan 05 2011 09:20 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Really, Marty, losses as your sole Blyleven barometer?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2011 09:30 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

HahnSolo wrote: Really, Marty, losses as your sole Blyleven barometer? He's voted for guys almost solely based on RBI considerations (Perez, IIRC), so... yeah, pretty consistent. Hey, at least he'll continue to stand behind his-- all due respect to Marty-- dumb-as-eating-fiberglass vote publicly!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2011 09:36 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 05 2011 10:04 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Go Barry Larkin. Raines and Martinez ought to be doing better. Trammell too. If I had a vote I'd feel afraid I'd be one of those douchy guys who want to randomly punish Bagwell. And that's the problem with it, frankly. It's a random punishment, based entirely on aesthetics. Bagwell was not a borderline-HoF first baseman in toto (like, say, Palmeiro); he's close to top-ten, for Chrissakes. He had a ridiculous 12-year peak, standing out even in his offensively-inflated era. Also nary a mention in the Mitchell Report or any other compendium of supposed users, however dubious or unsourced-- hell, he didn't rate a passing mention in the Canseco book. He's losing votes based on an oh-so-careful, post-hoc reading of photographs. FUCK, guys-- you can't read a stat sheet correctly. You're going to adjudicate steroid use by eyeballing Polaroids? On the plus side, Raines does appear to be slouching toward admission, if slowly. Give him a few more years post-Henderson, and I think he'll break free of that long shadow for HoF daylight.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 09:48 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

HahnSolo wrote: Really, Marty, losses as your sole Blyleven barometer? Blylometer, technically speaking. Nothing against Bert, but his prospective induction is going to unleash Chris Berman with Bert "Be Home" Blyleven all over again, isn't it?

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 09:52 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

If Tim "Torrential" Raines gets his justifyable induciton, I'd take the Bermanisms with him.

metirish Jan 05 2011 09:54 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Why is Noble so uncomfortable voting for Alomar? , I don't get his unease, it's not like Alomar spit at him or something.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 09:56 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Non-Alomar Met predictions: Olerud: 11 Franco: 7 Baerga: 4 Leiter: 0 Harris: 0 Higginson: 0 This is assuming that long-rumored trade for Bobby Higginson comes down before 2 o'clock.

Vic Sage Jan 05 2011 10:11 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Guys I've Thought Enough About and Have Decided in Favor Of: Bert Blyleven Tim Raines Jeff Bagwell Guys I Thought Some More About and, Yeah, Support Their Candidacies: =#408000]Roberto Alomar --- Overrated fielder, but so was Sandberg. Both are in the top ten MLB secondbasemen of all time. Its relevance is dubious, but the Orioles have been lost in the wilderness ever since his loogy. =#408000]Alan Trammell --- More win shares than Ernie Banks. I'm a big pusher of Trammel and Whitaker. =#408000]Edgar Martinez --- Hard to argue with those OBPs. A lot of thirdbasemen might have been pushed to DH if it was available to them --- Ron Santo, Stan Hack --- but Martinez wasn't really that bad a fielder. Guys I Like but Couldn't Quite Pull the Trigger On: =#FFBF00]Larry Walker --- He had a 130 OPS+ his last year. Another year or two, even playing 100-120 games, might have kicked me over the edge. =#FFBF00]Dave Parker --- Most of his greatness came before he turned 29, then it was like a decade of goodness. Probably tough to be a big guy playing so much on Astroturf. =#FFBF00]Kevin Brown --- It hurts his candidacy with me that I really kinda don't like him. =#FFBF00]Juan Gonzalez --- A little defensive value might have helped him. Guys I Gave Some Thought to and Rejected: =#FF0000]Harold Baines Bret Boone John Franco Don Mattingly Jack Morris Dale Murphy Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Benito Santiago Lee Smith Guys I Gave Almost No Thought to and Rejected: =#FF0000]Carlos Baerga Marquis Grissom Lenny Harris Bobby Higginson Charles Johnson Al Leiter Tino Martinez Raúl Mondesí John Olerud Rafael Palmeiro Kirk Rueter B. J. Surhoff um, Ed... where's Larkin? He didn't even get dismissed out of hand?

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 10:15 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

metirish wrote: Why is Noble so uncomfortable voting for Alomar? , I don't get his unease, it's not like Alomar spit at him or something. He holds the spit thing in high contempt. "I don't care that Hirschbeck forgave Alomar for spitting at him; I haven't." um, Ed... where's Larkin? He didn't even get dismissed out of hand? Larkin's in. I lost him in the cutting and pasting, but he's a standard bearer.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 10:16 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: metirish wrote: Why is Noble so uncomfortable voting for Alomar? , I don't get his unease, it's not like Alomar spit at him or something. He holds the spit thing in high contempt. "I don't care that Hirschbeck forgave Alomar for spitting at him; I haven't." Larkin's in. I lost him in the cutting and pasting, but he's a standard bearer. Also thought he was stealing money in 2002-2003. Which he basically was.

Number 6 Jan 05 2011 10:49 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Nice article by Davidoff today in the Daily News. Not breaking new ground, but he does call out the anti-Bagwell argument for what it really is.

Valadius Jan 05 2011 10:55 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Jayson Stark says pretty much all I would say.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 05 2011 11:19 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Number 6 wrote: Nice article by Davidoff today in the Daily News. Not breaking new ground, but he does call out the anti-Bagwell argument for what it really is. Jeez, you had me excited that Davidoff joined the Snooze (I'd trade John Harper straight up, Long Island, what do you say?) I admit I'm suspicious of all those Houston players in the Caminitti Era. Bags had 6 home runs in 859 minor league plate appearances. Six! 859!

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 11:41 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

The big announcement is about 20 minutes away.

Number 6 Jan 05 2011 11:52 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Jeez, you had me excited that Davidoff joined the Snooze (I'd trade John Harper straight up, Long Island, what do you say?) Whoops! Those papers blend together for me. My news is all internetty. John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I admit I'm suspicious of all those Houston players in the Caminitti Era. Bags had 6 home runs in 859 minor league plate appearances. Six! 859! Bags had plenty of doubles and triples in the minors, the way his power developed isn't close to unique, and there's no hard evidence of his usage that we know of, let alone proof. It can't be more than suspicion and guilt-by-association, not exactly a fair standard. Anyway, I'm sure you know all this. I can't really argue too much with suspecting that Bagwell used, but it's kinda shit that suspicion is the only argument against him.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 11:57 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I have to wonder... will the same questions arise about Mike Piazza two years from now? Or will it all be drowned out by the talk of Sosa, Bonds, and Clemens, who will also each be in their first year of eligibility?

metirish Jan 05 2011 12:02 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I have to wonder... will the same questions arise about Mike Piazza two years from now? Or will it all be drowned out by the talk of Sosa, Bonds, and Clemens, who will also each be in their first year of eligibility? Daily News today Voting nowadays has become "the stickiest of wickets," says Tom Haudricourt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, who has a vote. "The ballot talks about character. You just don't want to think people cheated the game. I don't like the argument that everyone was doing it. I don't think that's true and I'm not sure that's a good excuse for anything." "This is going to be something we wrestle with every year," adds Haudricourt. How voters from the Baseball Writers Association of America cast their ballots this year could also provide a sneak preview of voting on the Class of 2013, which will include Clemens, Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa, who all have been linked to performance-enhancing drugs. The three were all bigger stars than Palmeiro and Gonzalez. Some voters believe, in the case of Clemens and Bonds, that both would've been Hall of Famers even if their careers had ended before the time they are accused of using performance-enhancers. Both Bonds and Clemens are scheduled to face perjury charges in federal court later this year, and while the general outline of the government's case against Bonds is well-defined, much less is known about what ground the FBI and prosecutors covered in a two-and-a-half-year investigation into whether Clemens lied to Congress when he denied doping. Over the next months, more of that evidence will likely become public, perhaps implicating not just Clemens but other pros. Jason Grimsley and Jose Canseco are known to have testified before the grand jury that indicted Clemens, and other witnesses may have come and gone from the jury room without being seen. Will Palmeiro and Gonzalez get the necessary 75% of votes? One voter, Marc Topkin of the St. Petersburg Times, likens Palmeiro to McGwire, who last year admitted using steroids. "If you base it on McGwire, he's got no shot," Topkin says. McGwire got 23.7% of the vote last year. Gonzalez is "different than Palmeiro, but I don't know how much," Topkin says. "There is now a sub-class of candidates, guys who are associated with it. Some vote for them, some don't." Bagwell's tally could be a window into the future, too. "Are voters apt to deny someone based on perception as opposed to any real documentation?" said one voter, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "If people decide they won't vote for him because they think he used steroids, then that will affect other players going forward, like, say, Mike Piazza (who is eligible in 2013, too)." Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z1ABmmxjeK Did he bring up Piazza because he was talking to a NY paper?

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2011 12:03 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar & Blyleven

metsguyinmichigan Jan 05 2011 12:03 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar and Blyleven

metsguyinmichigan Jan 05 2011 12:04 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar gets 90 percent of the vote, Blyleven gets 80 percent.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 12:04 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

How did McGwire and Bagwell do?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 05 2011 12:05 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Piazza in my estimation is likely to be just as guilty as Bagwell, but will walk in because he has the superior narrative. It's totally unfair. Congrats to Alomar & Blyleven. Too bad about Larkin and the others.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 12:05 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I don't know how much it matters, but Piazza did slug in the minors. A lot. The argument will be there, but certainly lesser, and not enough to undermine him, unless new evidence comes to light that's more credible than the what's there now.

metsmarathon Jan 05 2011 12:06 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Number 6 wrote: Nice article by Davidoff today in the Daily News. Not breaking new ground, but he does call out the anti-Bagwell argument for what it really is. Jeez, you had me excited that Davidoff joined the Snooze (I'd trade John Harper straight up, Long Island, what do you say?) I admit I'm suspicious of all those Houston players in the Caminitti Era. Bags had 6 home runs in 859 minor league plate appearances. Six! 859! but caminiti didn't really start mashing until he left houston and went to san diego. and he had claimed to only have started using steroids in 96, two years after he left houston, and two years after bagwell's first monster year. i guess its possible that bags was the one who introduced caminiti to the roids, or that they had shared a common source. but really, its almost as if these bbwaa voters haven't watched a single minute of non-baseball pro sports in the past 15-20 years. everybody looks jacked today, relative to the skinny ball players we think we remember from the 80's. hell, if we're using the photo test, then every football and basketball player over the age of 15 is on the juice. well, except eddie curry i guess.

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2011 12:09 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: How did McGwire and Bagwell do? Larkin ~ 62% Jack Morris ~ 54 Lee Smith ~ 45 Bagwell ~ 42 Raines ~ 37 Edgar Martinez ~ 33 Trammel ~ 24 Larry Walker ~ 20 McGwire ~ 20

Valadius Jan 05 2011 12:09 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Juan Gonzalez 5.2%.

bmfc1 Jan 05 2011 12:10 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

2011 Hall of Fame voting Name Votes Pct. Roberto Alomar 523 90.0% Bert Blyleven 463 79.7% Barry Larkin 361 62.1% Jack Morris 311 53.5% Lee Smith 263 45.3% Jeff Bagwell 242 41.7% Tim Raines 218 37.5% Edgar Martinez 191 32.9% Alan Trammell 141 24.3% Larry Walker 118 20.3% Mark McGwire 115 19.8% Fred McGriff 104 17.9% Dave Parker 89 15.3% Don Mattingly 79 13.6% Dale Murphy 73 12.6% Rafael Palmeiro 64 11.0% Juan Gonzalez 30 5.2% Harold Baines 28 4.8% John Franco 27 4.6% Kevin Brown 12 2.1% Tino Martinez 6 1.0% Marquis Grissom 4 0.7% Al Leiter 4 0.7% John Olerud 4 0.7% B.J. Surhoff 2 0.3% Bret Boone 1 0.2% Benito Santiago 1 0.2% Carlos Baerga 0 0.0% Lenny Harris 0 0.0% Bobby Higginson 0 0.0% Charles Johnson 0 0.0% Raul Mondesi 0 0.0% Kirk Rueter 0 0.0% Note: 436 votes (75%) required for enshrinement. Induction July 24, 2011 in Cooperstown, N.Y.

bmfc1 Jan 05 2011 12:12 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

From the BBWAA: First-year candidates who received sufficient support to remain were Jeff Bagwell with 242 (41.7%), Larry Walker with 118 (20.3%), Rafael Palmeiro with 64 (11%) and Juan Gonzalez with 30 (5.2%). Other holdovers that will remain on the ballot in addition to Larkin and Morris are first basemen Mark McGwire, Fred McGriff and Don Mattingly; outfielders Tim Raines and Dale Murphy; designated hitter-third baseman Edgar Martinez; shortstop Alan Trammell and relief pitcher Lee Smith. In his 15th and final year on the ballot, Dave Parker received 89 votes (15.3%). Me: Fonzie '12!

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 12:13 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Congratualtions to Alomar and Blyleven. Tim Raines: 2008 --- 24.3% 2009 --- 22.6% 2010 --- 30.4% 2011 --- 37.5% Congrats also to Larkin for crossing the magic 60% threshhold. You could whip Marty Noble senseless for his logic, but it appears that a lot of his colleagues were exercising it as well.

smg58 Jan 05 2011 12:35 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Blyleven should have been inducted a long time ago, but better late than never. This is where the steroid issue creates a headache. Maybe Bagwell did something, or maybe he did not. I can understand why people don't want to put him in and then find out later that he took steroids, but there's no real credible evidence against him at this point.

Valadius Jan 05 2011 12:44 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm honestly sad to see John Franco fall just short of making the cut for next year's ballot.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2011 12:49 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Number 6 wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Jeez, you had me excited that Davidoff joined the Snooze (I'd trade John Harper straight up, Long Island, what do you say?) Whoops! Those papers blend together for me. My news is all internetty. John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I admit I'm suspicious of all those Houston players in the Caminitti Era. Bags had 6 home runs in 859 minor league plate appearances. Six! 859! Bags had plenty of doubles and triples in the minors, the way his power developed isn't close to unique, and there's no hard evidence of his usage that we know of, let alone proof. It can't be more than suspicion and guilt-by-association, not exactly a fair standard. Anyway, I'm sure you know all this. I can't really argue too much with suspecting that Bagwell used, but it's kinda shit that suspicion is the only argument against him. Rogers Hornsby hit 7 HRs in the minors over 2 years and 822 ABs (figure on probably 900ish PAs). Just 6 years later, he hit 42. 42! Then 39, twice! During the Dead-Ball Era! Then he had a sudden performance drop-off at 36. A sudden, suspicious drop-off. Obviously, there was something else in that there Maritana chaw. Well, y'know... either that, or he was some sort of exceptional ballplayer. Screw "real credible evidence." There is no evidence. There are only aspersions.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 01:08 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Is Blyleven the first Hall-of-Famer born in Europe? A lot of early stars were born in Ireland, but not Walsh, not Delahanty, not McGraw.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 01:08 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

On MLBN, Gammons brought up without provocation Piazza and the back acne charge as an example of the kind of talk that goes around, though he cushioned it with Piazza coming to him and asking "WTF?" Whereas Bagwell was a great-hitting first baseman, Piazza has that "greatest-hitting catcher" tag going for him, plus a large, favorable NY contingent (minus Chass and presumably a couple of contrarian cranks). Still, I wouldn't bet on first ballot for him -- unless he seems so much more appealing than his first-time ballot mates and voting for good ol' Mike indicates some sort of statement.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2011 01:15 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Looking at the first-ballot club again. Lou Brock's in there. So's Eckersley. Fine, I guess. Well and good. Considering how relatively few HOF members make it in on their first crack-- and who's still waiting on the front step (I'm thinking of Edgar and Raines, specifical-mente)-- I'm not the only one who finds it odd that Paul Molitor got in on the first crack, right?

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 01:19 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

What makes a first-ballot HOF-er will always be an impossible cat to herd.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 01:25 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

A lot of it depends on who else is in your graduating class. As for Piazza, as I mentioned above, he'll be in the same group as Sosa, Bonds, and Clemens. Should be a very interesting election. I'm very much hoping that Mike gets 80 per cent, and those other clowns end up in the 20's with McGwire.

Valadius Jan 05 2011 01:27 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

What frustrates the hell out of me is that too many voters seem to restrict themselves to two, or three, or four players each year, even when other players are slam-dunk, deserving players. We're going to have a serious problem in 2013, 2014, and 2015 if people don't broaden their horizons and vote for everyone deserving of induction. Also, the ten-player limit is going to look completely foolish once those three classes are absorbed onto the ballot. That ought to be done away with.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 01:33 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I think the self limits of four-five have victims (like Raines). I don't think the imposed limit of 10 does.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 01:44 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

If I was a voter, the years when I'd vote for four or five players would be very few and far between. I would think in most years I'd only vote for one or two. I can't imagine that there would ever be ten deserving players on the ballot in the same year.

Vic Sage Jan 05 2011 01:48 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Valadius, your point confuses me. I agree that the system should allow voters to vote for as MANY candidates as they believe to be HOFers. They therefore should also be able to vote for as FEW as they believe qualify (as they are currently entitled to do), but you castigate those voters who do limit their vote to those few, rather than filling out names to fill an arbitrary list of 10 regardless of qualification, while insisting that the ballot should also be open-ended. You should either vote for a fixed number of candidates each year, or be permitted to vote for as many (or as few) as you believe deserve the honor. I get that you want to throw the doors way more open then they have been (and i wholeheartedly disagree with you on this), but i think your position on this point is inconsistent.

Valadius Jan 05 2011 01:58 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Vic, I don't disagree with you. What I do have a problem with is when voters arbitrarily impose upon themselves a magic cut-off number as opposed to voting in everyone that they believe deserves induction.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 02:00 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Is anyone actually doing that? I have a greater objection to people who fill out all ten slots just because they can. (I don't know that anyone does that, but I suspect that some do.)

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2011 02:04 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I have a greater objection to people who fill out all ten slots just because they can. (I don't know that anyone does that, but I suspect that some do.) I've heard some claim to do that in the past - although no one specifically comes to mind. Newsday's Steve Jacobsen used to return a full or mostly full ballot each year.

Vic Sage Jan 05 2011 02:11 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Valadius wrote: Vic, I don't disagree with you. What I do have a problem with is when voters arbitrarily impose upon themselves a magic cut-off number as opposed to voting in everyone that they believe deserves induction. what makes you think that their limited ballots are the resulf of arbitrary cut-offs? Have they stated that they are doing that? It seems to me, absent evidence to the contrary, they're simply voting for the few they feel are HOFers, and they simply have a higher standard than you do for what that means.

metirish Jan 05 2011 07:15 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Joe Posnanski with a good read as usual http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/01/05/t ... ame-recap/

metirish Jan 05 2011 07:53 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm watching a round table on MLB Network featuring Heyman, Costas, Verducci and Gammons....Heyman drawing a line and separating Bonds and Clemens careers pre and post steroids....I mean really, WTF is that?, yes OK, their numbers could be HOF before they did steroids but when was that? Verducci adamant that a line can't be drawn , Costas seemed to be leaning with Heyman.....

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 07:59 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Kind of a weak digression to argue about two guys not on the ballot on the day two guys that were got elected.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 08:16 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Talk about Barry Larkin instead. If he went to Cardinal Hayes or Bronx Science instead of Moeller, and gave those 18 years to the Yankees instead of the Reds, folks would be going nuts tonight.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 08:33 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Alomar, by the way, is the first Diamondback in the Hall of Fame.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 05 2011 08:35 PM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: Talk about Barry Larkin instead. If he went to Cardinal Hayes or Bronx Science instead of Moeller, and gave those 18 years to the Yankees instead of the Reds, folks would be going nuts tonight. If Barry Larkin did all those things, he'da been in like Flynn already.

G-Fafif Jan 06 2011 06:08 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Larkin had been on MLBN earlier in the day (he's a regular there) being congratulated on his relatively strong showing, which was framed as a step toward his inevitable election. They gave him plenty of love. The Bonds-Clemens discussion ensued in the context of the poor totals by Palmeiro, Gonzalez and McGwire after they had wrung all the talk they could out of Alomar's and Blyleven's election. Costas's solution -- vote for Bonds and Clemens because their "authentic" pre-steroid performances were Hall of Fame worthy in their own right -- struck me as disingenuous. Be up in arms over PEDs or don't be up in arms over PEDs. I was with Verducci's disdain for "parsing" careers. Players are dismissed for careers that peter out from extraordinary to ordinary (like Dale Murphy's). Who's to say that Bonds or Clemens wouldn't have figuratively fallen off a cliff had they not (allegedly) used? How many players have had that "future Hall of Famer" tag wear off because they faded down the stretch and didn't seem all that impressive once the five-year waiting period was up? If you're looking at most players' full careers, I think you have to look at everybody's full careers.

Edgy DC Jan 06 2011 06:19 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

If you go by the popular narrative of when they started using, Clemens' career was falling off a cliff (as he left Boston for Toronto) when he began juicing; Bonds was already on the back nine of his career, but was still as good a player as there was in baseball, but was jealous of the orgy of love that McGwire and Sosa were getting.

G-Fafif Jan 06 2011 06:33 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

While winding down a Shea ramp after one of those Big Mac lovefests in 1998, I asked a friend why people didn't flock like this to see the great Barry Bonds when the Giants came to town. Answer: "Because Barry Bonds is an asshole." He never took injections of nice, but he sure knew how to draw a crowd eventually. Except to his name on the Hall of Fame ballot probably. Which, per the popular narrative, surely puts him in the same discussion as McGwire.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2011 07:18 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Pete Rose had a helluva career too, before he was caught gambling on baseball. It's not just about the stats. I think that "shame" negates "fame". By all means, put Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens in the "Hall of Great Statistics", but keep them out of Cooperstown.

Edgy DC Jan 06 2011 07:27 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I'll say this. If steroids keep Barry Bonds out of the Hall of Fame and (by extension) out of the good graces of baseball history, it'd be a better deterrent than any 50-day suspension.

metirish Jan 06 2011 07:41 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

G-Fafif wrote: Larkin had been on MLBN earlier in the day (he's a regular there) being congratulated on his relatively strong showing, which was framed as a step toward his inevitable election. They gave him plenty of love. The Bonds-Clemens discussion ensued in the context of the poor totals by Palmeiro, Gonzalez and McGwire after they had wrung all the talk they could out of Alomar's and Blyleven's election. Costas's solution -- vote for Bonds and Clemens because their "authentic" pre-steroid performances were Hall of Fame worthy in their own right -- struck me as disingenuous. Be up in arms over PEDs or don't be up in arms over PEDs. I was with Verducci's disdain for "parsing" careers. Players are dismissed for careers that peter out from extraordinary to ordinary (like Dale Murphy's). Who's to say that Bonds or Clemens wouldn't have figuratively fallen off a cliff had they not (allegedly) used? How many players have had that "future Hall of Famer" tag wear off because they faded down the stretch and didn't seem all that impressive once the five-year waiting period was up? If you're looking at most players' full careers, I think you have to look at everybody's full careers. You of course explain it better than I . There is a part of me that feels bad for Gammons in such settings, time was when he would lead the chatter but with Costas, Heyman and Verducci he seemed lost at times, added nothing to the talk. As an aside ,when did Harold Reynolds turn in to Tony Gwynn?

seawolf17 Jan 06 2011 07:49 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: I'll say this. If steroids keep Barry Bonds out of the Hall of Fame and (by extension) out of the good graces of baseball history, it'd be a better deterrent than any 50-day suspension. True. I don't usually get all Valadiusy with my definitive statements, but there is no way Bonds or Clemens gets in under the current system, because I'd bet that more than a quarter of the voting population either hates them as people or holds the steroids/lying thing against them.

Ceetar Jan 06 2011 07:51 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy DC wrote: I'll say this. If steroids keep Barry Bonds out of the Hall of Fame and (by extension) out of the good graces of baseball history, it'd be a better deterrent than any 50-day suspension. Would it? It's not like the "Likely to die sooner and totally screw up your body" deters them. The money talks. Especially for a lot of fringe guys that take/took when they were trying to stick in the big leagues. These guys are thinking about making it, about getting a big payday. Some of them would definitely rationalize that they're not getting into the Hall anyway, particularly if they don't take anything, so.. These guys are going to go to Cooperstown anyway. They'll be in all the other exhibits because they were top of the class when they played. They set records, had big moments, won championships. You take a kid to the Hall, have him see all those, and he'll turn to you when you get to the hall part and ask "Where's that Bonds guy that hit all those home runs? I want to see his plaque"

Edgy DC Jan 06 2011 07:59 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

I think it means a lot. Lenny Dykstra was a chronic gambler who came clean ten seconds after Pete Rose got banished. Living in good graces and being able to slap backs in peace the rest of their days means something to a lot of guys. If Clemens is locked out and turned into an angry pariah, it'll have meaning. Dominican boys will come to manhood with the cautionary tale of Sosa. Angry Bonds defenders can spin it like he was jobbed by the white establishment, but with McGwire and Clemens joining him on the sidelines, hopefully that woulnd't fly too far. I'm not saying it has to go down this way. I'm just saying the deterrent is a benefit if it does.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2011 09:17 AM Re: 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot

Save for maybe Bonds, the motivation for this generation of PED users-- if you believe the ones that have spoken out-- wasn't to put up HoF numbers. It was to BE great... or to keep a job. I'd have to imagine that those who play/act with the Hall of Fame and other post-career concerns as their primary motivator don't get close enough to scoff at the "Elect Mattingly" t-shirts down the street.