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Pirates offseason

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 07 2010 09:18 AM

I've been giving this some thought and maybe a good idea is to compartmentalize personnel movements by organization. I'm not deciding anything for anyone, but just for fun I'm gonna try with the Pirates who are making bits of small news this offseason. They have signed douchy lefty Scott Olson to a 1-year deal and now look like they are getting x-Padre/Giant Kevin Correria on a 2-year deal. This'll give them, um, 2 guys they didn't have last year. They also got Hurdle to manage, and didn't offer arbitration to Milledge. Your thoughts on the Pirates?

TheOldMole Dec 07 2010 09:25 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Still lousy.

TransMonk Dec 07 2010 09:27 AM Re: Pirates offseason

18 seasons since they last finished above .500...I'm surprised they have any fans left. I'd like to see them get better. Or be contracted.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 07 2010 09:31 AM Re: Pirates offseason

This reminds me of a thread I steered off course at one point... Let me see if I can find it.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 07 2010 09:32 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Nice uniforms. Great ballpark. As a kid, I feared and admired Willie Stargell.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 07 2010 09:34 AM Re: Pirates offseason

This is what happened the last time somebody created a thread about the Pirates. I hope this one stays on topic!

metirish Dec 07 2010 09:36 AM Re: Pirates offseason

It's a conversation we have every off season...at some point all those young studs they got in the draft should come good right?....Bobby V would have been a perfect manager for them, no offense to Hurdle.

attgig Dec 07 2010 12:52 PM Re: Pirates offseason

they'll start to get exciting. An outfield of McCutchen, Tabata, and Jones. Infield of Jones, Walker, Cedeno, Alvarez, and Doumit. it's a pretty solid lineup ... though most of the guys are going to need time to grow... But in a couple of years, If Alvarez, McCutchen, & Tabata develop as they have been, Jones keeps on getting better bit by bit, and Doumit can stay healthy, they could be good. As for their pitching, Mcdonald was actually pretty good last year for being on such a bad team. Maholm and Ohlendorf have shown they have the stuff, but just need to improve. I'm guessing Correia is going to be their #2, and Olsen a #3/4. Optimistically, if their pitching pans out, they can flirt with 500 this year. and perhaps beat it next year.

G-Fafif Dec 07 2010 01:46 PM Re: Pirates offseason

It's not like they haven't had their share of high draft choices.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 07 2010 01:50 PM Re: Pirates offseason

It's probably too late for this, but if I had a say, I'd recommend that the team move their fences back to Citi Field dimensions, maybe even slightly deeper. Either that, or move the fences in to make their ballpark the most hitter friendly park in baseball.

sharpie Dec 07 2010 02:00 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Jones took a pretty big step backward last year and they say he'll be a platoon player in the future. Correia and Olsen aren't bad pickups. Still don't think they reach .500 in '11.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 07 2010 02:25 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Doumit. Wasn't he moved from behind the plate (at least primarily) because of the glove? Their drafting has been pretty terrible on the pitching side. Correia was an okay pickup... I'm not a huge fan of Olsen's at this point.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2010 02:44 PM Re: Pirates offseason

People hate Doumit as a catcher. I'm sure he's not good, but he never struck me as bad as he's popularly made out to be. For my part, I love having catchers who play other positions.

DocTee Dec 07 2010 03:11 PM Re: Pirates offseason

And, Doumit, apparently, can be had. I remember them getting blasted for dealing Nate McLouth to the Braves, since he was a five-toolsy guy, but that didn't turn out so well for ATL, did it. Every year I root for them to do well, and every year they suck. Hoping for Pittsburgh natve Mark Cuban to step in and spend spend spend on this team.

TransMonk Dec 08 2010 08:03 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Per Metsblog: According to Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Matt Diaz signed a two year, $4.25 million contract [with the Pirates].

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 14 2010 04:11 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Lyle Overbay inks one year deal.

Ceetar Jul 26 2011 02:58 PM Re: Pirates offseason

attgig wrote: they'll start to get exciting. An outfield of McCutchen, Tabata, and Jones. Infield of Jones, Walker, Cedeno, Alvarez, and Doumit. it's a pretty solid lineup ... though most of the guys are going to need time to grow... But in a couple of years, If Alvarez, McCutchen, & Tabata develop as they have been, Jones keeps on getting better bit by bit, and Doumit can stay healthy, they could be good. As for their pitching, Mcdonald was actually pretty good last year for being on such a bad team. Maholm and Ohlendorf have shown they have the stuff, but just need to improve. I'm guessing Correia is going to be their #2, and Olsen a #3/4. Optimistically, if their pitching pans out, they can flirt with 500 this year. and perhaps beat it next year. good call.

Farmer Ted Jul 26 2011 03:15 PM Re: Pirates offseason

With that ballpark and its location, surprised it took them so long to get some momentum going. Bring back the black stirrup socks with the three gold rings and the Stargell-era bucket caps and I might pull for them down the stretch. Had some beers with Hurdle when he was toiling as a manager in the minors (clean and sober now, unlike me and my microbeer-loving tastes). Good guy.

attgig Jul 26 2011 04:09 PM Re: Pirates offseason

wow. one of my predictions actually panned out! now, if i go to vegas and place a million $1 bets, I'm sure one of the bets will win $1million :)

G-Fafif Jul 26 2011 04:42 PM Re: Pirates offseason

For aesthetic reasons alone, a Giants-Pirates NLCS would be the most sumptuous HD matchup possible. Two more beautiful ballparks there are not. Let the winner play three game in Fenway in the World Series of venues. And as long as we're dreaming non-Mets dreams, Phillies-Pirates NLDS (not out of the question if Bucs and Braves hold their current positions) would revive a great rivalry. I think we can write in the CPF choice for winner of that theoretical matchup right now.

Frayed Knot Jul 26 2011 08:41 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Pitt tied with the Bravos in the 10th A Neal Walker error gives Atlanta a leadoff baserunner in bottom 10.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 08:54 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Is this our OoTSB thread? Let's go, Bucs!

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 08:57 PM Re: Pirates offseason

And the Cubbies fail to best the Brews. Boo, Cubs!

Gwreck Jul 26 2011 09:01 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Going to 12 now. Go Pirates!

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 09:03 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Sheesh, [list:2ne3lq6i][*:2ne3lq6i]Cubs fail to beat the Brews[/*:m:2ne3lq6i] [*:2ne3lq6i]Houston fails to beat the Cards[/*:m:2ne3lq6i] [*:2ne3lq6i]Giants fall to the Phils[/*:m:2ne3lq6i] [*:2ne3lq6i]Diamondbacks beating San Diego, 2-0, in the fifth[/*:m:2ne3lq6i][/list:u:2ne3lq6i] Everybody ahead of the Mets either (1) has won, (2) is winning, like Arizona, or (3) is playing another team ahead (Pirates-Braves). Gotta be a Pirate fan right now, though.

Ceetar Jul 26 2011 09:10 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Edgy DC wrote: Sheesh, [list][*]Cubs fail to beat the Brews[/*:m] [*]Houston fails to beat the Cards[/*:m] [*]Giants fall to the Phils[/*:m] [*]Diamondbacks beating San Diego, 2-0, in the fifth[/*:m][/list:u] Everybody ahead of the Mets either (1) has won, (2) is winning, like Arizona, or (3) is playing another team ahead (Pirates-Braves). Gotta be a Pirate fan right now, though. I always aim for the head. or at least the neck. Go Pirates..let's see these Braves lose. (I suppose the head is Philly)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 26 2011 09:11 PM Re: Pirates offseason

But... hold on. In the 11th inning of the Pirates-Braves game, Brian McCann sailed a throw on a steal attempt... and came up favoring his back; t'was bad enough that he gave way for David Ross, and was visibly grimacing as he did so. Did the Braves just lose ANOTHER offensive piece from an injury-reeling squad?

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 09:18 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Jason Grilli gets two on, gets Alex Gonzolez on one pitch for out two, and then walks Heyward intentionally. Bases jammed and... ... Julio Lugo grounds to third. Thank you, Brooklyn's own.

Gwreck Jul 26 2011 09:28 PM Re: Pirates offseason

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: But... hold on. In the 11th inning of the Pirates-Braves game, Brian McCann sailed a throw on a steal attempt... and came up favoring his back; t'was bad enough that he gave way for David Ross, and was visibly grimacing as he did so. Did the Braves just lose ANOTHER offensive piece from an injury-reeling squad? Yes indeed. Strained oblique, 15 day DL.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 26 2011 09:31 PM Re: Pirates offseason

And Larry hurt himself yesterday, in his first day back. The Braves lineup could have the look of Getaway Day every day for the next week or two, at least.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 09:32 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Grilli, sixth Pirates pitcher, starts his third innnig by whiffing Schaefer. He's just up here, in his third game this season. Single now by Cristian Martinez.

Gwreck Jul 26 2011 09:33 PM Re: Pirates offseason

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: And Larry hurt himself yesterday, in his first day back. The Braves lineup could have the look of Getaway Day every day for the next week or two, at least. We'll take Mike Minor for Beltran, thanks.

Gwreck Jul 26 2011 09:34 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Edgy DC wrote: Single now by Cristian Martinez. That's the Braves pitcher, who's also thrown 3 innings so far.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 09:47 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Martinez gets leadoff batter and Catcher Mike McHenry (that's not a catcher, that's a tunnel!), who flew out on his 14th pitch.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 26 2011 10:02 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Onto the 15th

Gwreck Jul 26 2011 10:22 PM Re: Pirates offseason

And we go on to 16. Braves leaving this reliever Christian Martinez in the game (he's batted three times now). Maybe the Pirates get him in his 6th inning of work.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 10:23 PM Re: Pirates offseason

They need to pinch-hit Easler.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 10:40 PM Re: Pirates offseason

One out in the bottom of the sixteenth.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 10:43 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Dan Uggla, still batting on the Interstate, lines out with a runner on. Two out.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 10:46 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Biggest collar: Lyle Overbay with an 0-7 so far.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 11:02 PM Re: Pirates offseason

These be two poor hitting teams. And the torture is, somebody gets on > Hurdle calls for a bunt > Braves answer with an intentional walk > boring.

Gwreck Jul 26 2011 11:07 PM Re: Pirates offseason

On to 18. Goodnight Pirates. Let us all wake up to you having defeated the Braves.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 11:31 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Ronny Cedeno just saved the game in inning 18.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 11:39 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Middle of the 19th and I quitski.

G-Fafif Jul 27 2011 12:05 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Braves 4 Pirates 3. Darn.

G-Fafif Jul 27 2011 12:50 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Wow, an utterly, utterly HORRIBLE call at the plate to end the game in the 19th inning. Jerry Meals wanted one of his last name, apparently.

bmfc1 Jul 27 2011 04:49 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Incredible--even Angel Hernandez thought that it was a bad call.

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 05:36 AM Re: Pirates offseason

G-Fafif wrote: Wow, an utterly, utterly HORRIBLE call at the plate to end the game in the 19th inning. Jerry Meals wanted one of his last name, apparently. That's a call that will cost you your job.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2011 06:45 AM Re: Pirates offseason

When someone without quick thumbs can isolate a clear freeze-frame of the wrong-itude of your call... yeah, that makes sense.

Frayed Knot Jul 27 2011 06:51 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Edgy DC wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Wow, an utterly, utterly HORRIBLE call at the plate to end the game in the 19th inning. Jerry Meals wanted one of his last name, apparently. That's a call that will cost you your job. No it won't.

Ceetar Jul 27 2011 06:59 AM Re: Pirates offseason

could cost the Mets Carlos Beltran, or at least seal the deal. And to top it off. it was SCOTT PROCTOR with the walkoff hit. and he fell down on his way to first.

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 07:06 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Well, it'll be two or thee years down the road before accountabliity catches up with an umpire at a review, but I was being somewhat facetious, and lacking serious intent. More seriously, as much time as I put into last night's game, it's going to cost me my job.

MFS62 Jul 27 2011 07:11 AM Re: Pirates offseason

bmfc1 wrote: Incredible--even Angel Hernandez thought that it was a bad call. I heard about the bad call, then I saw the picture. Then, I checked the box score to see if it was Angel Hernandez. Later

Gwreck Jul 27 2011 07:38 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Frayed Knot wrote: No it won't. Exactly. And there's the problem. The umpires aren't going to get better without better accountability.

smg58 Jul 27 2011 09:11 AM Re: Pirates offseason

If the Braves make the playoffs by a game and/or the Pirates miss by a game, there will be accountability. It seems like there have been more than the usual number of blown calls this year, but that one tops the list. It wasn't even close.

seawolf17 Jul 27 2011 09:27 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Not for nothing, but that was a shit tag by the catcher. I know you're tired, but MAKE SURE YOU GET THE OUT. None of this swipey crap.

Ceetar Jul 27 2011 09:30 AM Re: Pirates offseason

seawolf17 wrote: Not for nothing, but that was a shit tag by the catcher. I know you're tired, but MAKE SURE YOU GET THE OUT. None of this swipey crap. Also, he didn't even turn to look to first to see if he could get the DP (he could've, Proctor tripped running out of the box)

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 09:39 AM Re: Pirates offseason

I'm on both sides of that one. I agree that burying that tag in the runner's gut would certainly have won the catcher the call, but it may (1) be the way they are trained, to get the tag but protect the ball from being jarred loose, and (2) just be the continued momentum when you have to reach behind you to make the play at all. To bury the tag would be to collapse into the runner and turn your back on the field (where Scott Proctor was lying on the grass like an exhausted infant, waiting to be tagged for the double play).

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 09:41 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Ceetar wrote: seawolf17 wrote: Not for nothing, but that was a shit tag by the catcher. I know you're tired, but MAKE SURE YOU GET THE OUT. None of this swipey crap. Also, he didn't even turn to look to first to see if he could get the DP (he could've, Proctor tripped running out of the box) He was tuirning to look when the safe call made it a moot point. Give the guy a break. He was jobbed by the Man.

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 09:45 AM Re: Pirates offseason

The sweep certainly fooled the Man: “I saw the tag, but he looked like he oléd him and I called him safe for that. I looked at the replays and it appeared he might have got him on the shin area. I’m guessing he might have got him, but when I was out there when it happened I didn’t see a tag. “I just saw the glove sweep up. I didn’t see the glove hit his leg.”

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2011 09:47 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Having a rough morning? Need a pick-me-up? Do check out the #jerrymealssaysitssafe hashtag on Twitter, then. Just saw a car w/ 1 headlight and gang members in it, I flashed my high beams at them cause #JerryMealsSaysItsSafe

batmagadanleadoff Jul 27 2011 09:48 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Look on the bright side ... the Mets gained a game on the Pirates.

Frayed Knot Jul 27 2011 10:43 AM Re: Pirates offseason

The sweep certainly fooled the Man: “I saw the tag, but he looked like he oléd him and I called him safe for that. I looked at the replays and it appeared he might have got him on the shin area. I’m guessing he might have got him, but when I was out there when it happened I didn’t see a tag. “I just saw the glove sweep up. I didn’t see the glove hit his leg.” The thing is, on a call like that where the throw beats the runner but six feet and the tag was certainly right there or maybe missed by a few millimeters you have to be damn near 100% sure he missed the tag before you call that he missed the tag. And not just because it's the 19th inning but especially because it's the 19th.

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 10:49 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Very much agreed. Yeah, the catcher could have sold it better, but I'll give him .7% of the blame here. Teh throw beat the runner by a Canadian mile. The runner more or less quit on the play. You've got to specifically see a fistful of light between the glove and the runner. If there's ambiguity and you're not sure, you've got to side with the people who have the evidence on their side. I wonder if he just had his judgment impaired by sleepiness.

Frayed Knot Jul 27 2011 10:50 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Gwreck wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: No it won't. Exactly. And there's the problem. The umpires aren't going to get better without better accountability. The umpire's union takes the same view as a lot of unions in that they put forth the idea that there's no difference among any of their employees; each one is exactly as competent as the next and only seniority should be used for benefit and pay differences.

Frayed Knot Jul 27 2011 12:40 PM Re: Pirates offseason

The other thing about this play is that it gave the national media (in their brief moments between football signing orgasms) the excuse to tee off on baseball for "continuing to live in the dark ages" by not instantly expanding replay. But since replay all comes down to the minute details in slow-motion, it's probable that this call wouldn't have been overturned anyway since you certainly couldn't prove the tag was ever made.

Gwreck Jul 27 2011 12:43 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Frayed Knot wrote: you certainly couldn't prove the tag was ever made. Really?

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 01:01 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Yeah, I think the evidence is clear and conclusive.

seawolf17 Jul 27 2011 01:02 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, I think the evidence is clear and conclusive. Disagree. Nobody had a better angle than that umpire, and it's not clear as to whether the glove actually touches his leg.

HahnSolo Jul 27 2011 01:05 PM Re: Pirates offseason

seawolf17 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, I think the evidence is clear and conclusive. Disagree. Nobody had a better angle than that umpire, and it's not clear as to whether the glove actually touches his leg. I don't think the ump's angle was all that great to be able to make a call on a swipe tag. Seemed pretty clear to me that the catcher made contact as he was sweeping the glove across.

seawolf17 Jul 27 2011 01:06 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Neither of the two angles I saw made it "clear" of anything, unfortunately. The glove doesn't clearly bump into him, or change direction, or anything that would indicate (to me) obvious contact.

metirish Jul 27 2011 01:10 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Should any ump be calling all 19 innings behind the plate?

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 01:20 PM Re: Pirates offseason

The centerfield camera, third base camera, and the hight home plate camera all have similar angles and the benefit of slowing the play down, and he touched him in a profound a meaningful way. I don't see any other conclusion you can draw, particularly from the high third base shot. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.js ... y&c_id=pit Should any ump be calling all 19 innings behind the plate? Great point. I've always felt a five-man rotation should be in place on each team, with the fifth guy, taking a day off from standing, doing scorekeeping, and only joining the field in the event of an injury, but perhaps, extra-inning help would be an appropriate assignment as well.

Frayed Knot Jul 27 2011 01:22 PM Re: Pirates offseason

seawolf17 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, I think the evidence is clear and conclusive. Disagree. Nobody had a better angle than that umpire, and it's not clear as to whether the glove actually touches his leg. Yeah, I think it's one of those plays where he clearly looks out via real time speed, but the ump says he never saw the tag and so the job of replay is to see whether you can actually see glove hit leg (or wherever) in slo-mo and from every available angle. And while I agree that he should have been called out, I think the casualness of the tag negates any hard evidence that he actually was tagged and that's what's going to be needed to overturn the result. By the same token if the call had gone the other way and the rules allowed the Braves to challenge the call (as some pundits are calling for on any and every potential scoring play) then I don't believe the replay showed enough to prove he wasn't either.

dgwphotography Jul 27 2011 01:25 PM Re: Pirates offseason

seawolf17 wrote: Neither of the two angles I saw made it "clear" of anything, unfortunately. The glove doesn't clearly bump into him, or change direction, or anything that would indicate (to me) obvious contact. I had the same reaction when I saw the replays. It reminds me of the Agee - Hundley play in 1969...

Centerfield Jul 27 2011 01:55 PM Re: Pirates offseason

One thing the replay proves convincingly: Lugo thought he was out.

attgig Jul 27 2011 02:30 PM Re: Pirates offseason

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Look on the bright side ... the Mets gained a game on the Pirates. would be nice to pick up a game on the braves instead

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2011 03:16 PM Re: Pirates offseason

If MLB publicly admits that the call was incorrect, it was probably incorrect. Will Graves, AP Writer wrote: MLB acknowledges ump missed the call in #Bucs 19th inning loss to #Braves on Tuesday.

Gwreck Jul 27 2011 03:55 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Here's the Official Statement. Joe Torre wrote: Many swipe tags are not applied to the runner with solid contact, but the tag was applied and the game should have remained tied.

metirish Jul 27 2011 04:11 PM Re: Pirates offseason

Gwreck wrote: Here's the Official Statement. Joe Torre wrote: Many swipe tags are not applied to the runner with solid contact, but the tag was applied and the game should have remained tied. Joe sure likes tied games.

Frayed Knot Jul 29 2011 07:44 AM Re: Pirates offseason

As Phil Mushnick pointed out in this morning's column (and as others, including me, have said many times in the past) IF replay does reverse that call, then what? As noted: - Proctor laid down the bunt then fell about two steps out of the box. - Pittsburgh catcher makes the (he thought) tag but then stopped when he heard the safe call because the call effectively ends the game. Was the catcher even going to throw to 1st? If so would it have been in time and on target? ... or rushed and heaved into RF? Do the umps then assume a DP? ... do they weigh the probability of it occurring vs the probability of the ball hitting the runner or missing the target entirely? -- something which could end the game all over again as there's a new runner now on 2nd. The point being that the call, as it's being made, affects what does (or doesn't) happen next and so it's not as simple as pretending that correcting the call puts the situation where it should have been in the first place. And, of course, this is all assuming that the replay would have reversed the call in the first place, that there was some "discernible proof" that glove hit leg.

Gwreck Jul 29 2011 07:55 AM Re: Pirates offseason

This is why replay is the red herring. The problem is, and remains, umpire quality control.

Edgy DC Jul 29 2011 07:57 AM Re: Pirates offseason

I do think there was discernable proof, but I'm not calling for replay, In fact, I think there's a lot better techhology availalbe to aide umpiring than digital video, stuff like contact sensors and telemetry, able to aide calls in real time, not after the fact. And non-techological aides --- like putting umps on a five- or six-man rotation --- can ensure them breaks and protect them from being behind the plate for 19 innings.

Frayed Knot Jul 29 2011 08:35 AM Re: Pirates offseason

Gwreck wrote: This is why replay is the red herring. The problem is, and remains, umpire quality control. I agree. Now all we have to do is convince those who see the solution to every missed call as: - more replay is needed (but apparently more thought is not) - MLB not putting in more replay like yesterday proves how stupid and backwards they are I think much of the problem comes from the fact that those missed calls the pundits are crying about is the only baseball many of them ever see.