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Marriage... obsolete?

A Boy Named Seo Nov 27 2010 12:58 PM

Thought this article was sorta interesting for a couple reasons, hit mostly in the first 2 paragraphs. 1) that more & more americans (40%, up from 28% in 1978) think that marriage is becoming obsolete and 2) 75% of unmarried americans still wanna get hitched anyway. Wondered who answered the poll? A combo of unhappily married peeps/lonely hearts club singles? Agree with parts of the article, though. Society's changed a bunch in the last several decades & marriage is getting back-burnered more & more w/ each generation. Everything's more disposable now, including relationships, and 'sewing oats'/whoring oneself around a bit/sexual promiscuity isn't looked down upon like it might've been maybe even 20 or 30 years ago. As one who likes to sew the occasional oat or two, I don't think that's really all that bad a thing, for the record. A lot of married peeps here. Some of us single ones, too. What u think? I'm 35 and happily single, but would take the plunge (i think, maybe) if some girl completely rocked my universe. maybe. I think if i was certain i wanted lil chitlins running around, i'd be more serious about marriage. I think that's a big decider for lots of peeps, & she didn't really explore that aspect with any depth in the article. so, marriage obsolete? i won't tell your wives/hubbies.

Ceetar Nov 27 2010 01:03 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Both me and my wife of 48 days would probably agree that it's obsolete but we're glad we got married. Of course, we'd been together 10 years, living together for two, etc. nothing changed except our debt level and all the name-change paperwork she has to file. And shortly, instead of people asking "When are you getting married?" they're going to ask "When are you having kids?"

Kong76 Nov 27 2010 01:34 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Lived "in sin" with my wife for a lonnngggg time and got hitched four or so years ago late in life. I like being offically married, but to me it's just a ring and different tax return situation. We've been married since the mid 80's really, and not much changed day to day. My girlfriend wanted nothing to do with me until I wore a ring. I think being married made me less of a threat to her regular life.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 27 2010 01:38 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

As the newly-est wed, I figured I knew sorta what Ceet's response would be, but i was still wrong. So you guys were in the statistical norm of peeps who think it's obsolete, but still wanted to. that's kinda interesting. and did nothing really change? so based on my 8 minutes of research & heavy-duty fact-finding, the reasons to get hitched in this day & age of marriage being all crusty & obsolete: 1) kiddos 2) next logical step in the relationship 3) mutual desire to make the ultimate commitment to your partner 4) family pressure for some? 5) traditional/societal thing to do 6) always have a date for new years 7) other? What are the advantages then (personal ones, not tax reasons or whatever) to getting married, as opposed to staying in a long-term, committed, co-habitation kinda thing? #3 seems old skewl charming to me. but i say that from the safety & comfort of my commitment-free zone, 1-bedroom 'batch pad'.

Frayed Knot Nov 27 2010 01:52 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

I suspect a lot of the peeps in the survey who answer "obsolete" to questions like this do so because they think that's the 'cool' answer, that they believe it makes them sound less narrow-minded to say that to a stranger even if they are or intend to get married themselves at some point. It's certainly less "required" than it was back in the day - both for those who simply choose to live alone or for those living together short or long term without making it official. The only view I ever had a problem with was the couples who preached about how they weren't merely [u:2n05a7y5]un[/u:2n05a7y5]married but were somehow [u:2n05a7y5]above[/u:2n05a7y5] marriage, that the only ones who needed/wanted the ceremony were those not nearly as evolved yet. Yeah Sarandon and Robbins, I'm taking about you.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 27 2010 02:02 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

I don't think it's "obsolete" as evidenced by how many gay people want to get married, and how many straight people want to prevent that from happening. But it's not as standard as it had been many years ago. I've been married for over 16 years now. Why? I don't know! We did the "living in sin" thing for almost a year, and I probably could have stayed with that indefinitely. My wife did say she didn't want to get pregnant without being married first, so perhaps that had something to do with it, but I honestly don't really remember the exact motivation behind the conversion from being POSSLQ's to spouses.

TheOldMole Nov 27 2010 02:39 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

We were both totally burned out on marriage, sure we'd never get married again. We lived together for about 3 years, then decided to marry to protect her in a sort of complicated property situation...and discovered that, much to our surprise, it meant a great deal to both of us. And still does, close to 25 years later. But I wouldn't generalize from that.

Ceetar Nov 27 2010 02:53 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Not only did nothing change, even legally it was nearly a wash because we were "domestic partners" at her job so I got her insurance anyway. Marriage may even have set us back in the buy a house, dog, picket fence and kids thing, as now we're that much more in debt and can't afford it. Society is still built upon marriage (and procreation of the species and all that) taxes are different, you're viewed differently.. Wasn't there a study somewhere that married people are viewed as more employable? If you're not married, people expect it of you. the law still applies in so many areas from custody and ownership and whatnot. New York only _just_ changed it so you can nofault divorce. Previously one party always had to be 'at fault' in causing the dissolution of the marriage. I dunno, it means a lot and nothing at the same time. Also, as you get up there in age, the term 'girlfriend' starts to sound a little weird.

themetfairy Nov 27 2010 03:53 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Wow - this is a loaded question if ever there was one. I don't think that marriage is obsolete. But I don't think that it's necessarily the right choice for everyone. I don't think that everyone is cut out to be monogamous for the long haul, and for those who aren't, marriage is going to have its issues. I believe that marriage does carry with it a level of commitment. I wasn't going to move to another state with D-Dad without a ring on my finger. I don't know that I would have brought his children into the world without marriage (who's to say now, but 20+ years ago I'm just not sure we would have taken that step outside of marriage). Being married does make a difference where kids are involved. In the City not as much - my daughter attended school with kids who came from all sorts of family situations. But in suburbia (at least where I live) marriage is the norm. Also, I've always joked that every school activity treats each kid as an only child with two stay at home parents and unlimited funds - that's an exaggeration, but having two parents who are on the same page makes child rearing a lot easier. I believe it's easier to get on the same page when you're married, although I know that it can be done without that formal status. We've been together over 31 years, and married for the past 27 of them. We've had our ups and downs. I will say that marriage gives you more incentive to work things out during the low periods (and, frankly, every long term relationship is going to have its low periods. You only believe it's never going to happen to you until you actually go through one of them), and I will also say that the process of working through the hard times can make a relationship much stronger (it's akin to the concept of that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger). Ultimately, I have no regrets. I'd do the whole thing over again in a heartbeat.

Edgy DC Nov 27 2010 04:13 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

One of the few things researchers know about kids and how they turn out is that all of them --- rich, poor, black, white, brown --- have a much better chance of living a fulfilling life, contributing to society, and legally pursuing happiness and high achievement if they have two parents in the household. Not to impugn single-parent households at all at all, but society has an interest in delaying the obselesence of marriage.

Ceetar Nov 27 2010 04:23 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Edgy DC wrote: One of the few things researchers know about kids and how they turn out is that all of them --- rich, poor, black, white, brown --- have a much better chance of living a fulfilling life, contriubting to society, and legally pursuing happiness and high achievement if they have two parents in the household. Not to impugn single-parent households at all at all, but society has an interest in delaying the obselesence of marriage. Whether or not those two 'parents' are married though, is irrelevant. I imagine if it's an older brother, or grandma, or uncle, or simple two-unmarried people those results are the same. Marriage is the common and societial norm for child-rearing, but well-loved and cared for kids, in any situation, generally will grow up alright.

Edgy DC Nov 27 2010 04:45 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

I agree that two good unmarried parents for 20 years is probably as much of a blessing as two good married ones, but I guess it's relevant in compelling them to stay in for the long haul.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 27 2010 05:45 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

I think 2 peeps is best because you'd be tired all the time, no? Don't really know how 1 person can do it on their own. My older and younger bro are both married w/ 2 kids each (younger bro divorced & re-married) and they both have very good 'partnerships' that seem essential. I couldn't raise kids solo, that's for sure. Babysitting for 45 min = equal better birth control than my bedside Magnum's. 00-----------------------) That said, agreed w/ u guys that 2 peeps, married/unmarried/straight/gay/lezzie, is irrelevant, as long as they give a shit. i wonder abott what edgy said, "compelling them to stay in for the long haul". my folks are divorced (when i was about 5) and I'm glad they divorced now that i'm all growns up & have everything in the world figured out. they were not happy and not making each other happy and (hopefully) they both ended up better off apart. would be sad to think they stayed in it when it was all futile just for me & my bros. to that end, i think 2 separate, or even 1 lone parent are better for the kiddos if there's all kinds of fighting/yelling/bullshit with 2 unhappy parents who hate being with one another. am i a commitment-phobe now because of all that? maybe. you ruined my life, mom & dad. hate u guys. so much. heh. marriage - obsolete for people who shouldn't get married to begin with? divorce - awesome? or a key component to the unraveling of our collective moral fiber? and what about being a swinger? just kiddin'.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 27 2010 06:12 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

A lot of married peeps here. Some of us single ones, too. What u think? I'm 35 and happily single, but would take the plunge (i think, maybe) if some girl completely rocked my universe. maybe. Sheila? Honduran Hotcakes? I think if i was certain i wanted lil chitlins running around, i'd be more serious about marriage. I think that's a big decider for lots of peeps, & she didn't really explore that aspect with any depth in the article. The Buckets got married in part to "legitimize" what was happening to us after several years together. I definitely felt a little pressure from Mommabucket to do the whole marriage thing, and we were about to buy an apt, so it just seemed like the best idea, even though I'd have said then it wasn't such a biggie. I'd say being in a marriage has probably helped us get through a few rhubarbs we might not have without one. As far as the chillins go, well we weren't really planning for that either and it's all worked out swell. Totally selfish, but although I don't tend to look at peep's any differently whether they are married or just paired up, but it'd make it easier if they were married if only to removed those awkward social hurdles. Lots of Lunchpail's young friends have 2 unmarried parents, and I'm always stumbling when talking to them about their ... wi...hus... partner.

Edgy DC Nov 27 2010 07:30 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

A Boy Named Seo wrote: That said, agreed w/ u guys that 2 peeps, married/unmarried/straight/gay/lezzie, is irrelevant, as long as they give a shit. i wonder abott what edgy said, "compelling them to stay in for the long haul". my folks are divorced (when i was about 5) and I'm glad they divorced now that i'm all growns up & have everything in the world figured out. they were not happy and not making each other happy and (hopefully) they both ended up better off apart. would be sad to think they stayed in it when it was all futile just for me & my bros. to that end, i think 2 separate, or even 1 lone parent are better for the kiddos if there's all kinds of fighting/yelling/bullshit with 2 unhappy parents who hate being with one another. Yeah, but look at how you turned out, all fucked up and shit. No, really, please understand, by compelling, I merely mean compelling, and not forcing --- reminding folks during rough spots that they made a vow and have an obligation. If they've been through the rough spots and are still just making each other and the kids miserable, obviously there are other great success stories, including two of our last three presidents, coming from broken homes, where children were still loved and supported and encouraged. I'm just speaking statisticamally.

Kong76 Nov 27 2010 08:14 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Edgy DC wrote: One of the few things researchers know about kids and how they turn out is that all of them --- rich, poor, black, white, brown --- have a much better chance of living a fulfilling life, contributing to society, and legally pursuing happiness and high achievement if they have two parents in the household. Not to impugn single-parent households at all at all, but society has an interest in delaying the obselesence of marriage. My father left when I was an infant ... and look how normal I turned out :-)

Edgy DC Nov 27 2010 08:21 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

And please don't any of youse think that in citing the stats I have anything but admiration for youse and youse families. Some of our great outliers come from single-parent families and makeshift parenting arrangements, including three of the four Beatles, and one of the one Kong76.

Ceetar Nov 27 2010 08:26 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Edgy DC wrote: And please don't any of youse think that in citing the stats I have anything but admiration for youse and youse families. Some of our great outliers come from single-parent families and makeshift parenting arrangements, including three of the four Beatles, and one of the one Kong76. yes but..don't you ever wonder why we never hear about Kong1-75?

Kong76 Nov 27 2010 08:28 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

*sniffle* I'm going back over to facebook, cooby's taking a bath!

Rockin' Doc Nov 27 2010 08:46 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

After dating 3 and a half years during college, my wife and I never gave much thought to living together. I guess we had (have) old fashioned values from our upbringing. We were married within weeks of her college graduation and my completing my first year at optometry school. I definitely wouldn't recommend others to marry at such a young age and move 500 miles away from their families (particularly when neither spouse has a job), but that's what we did and I wouldn't change a thing if I had it all to do again. This past June we celebrate our 28th anniversary and we look forward to hopefully growing old together. The societal pressures on couples to marry are definitely less with each succeeding generation. I don't think marriage is obsolete, but I don't think it is for everyone.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 27 2010 08:50 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Obsolete as... what, exactly? AS a social institution? As an economic bulwark for unstable marrieds? For societal purposes? Sociology asks such interesting questions-- it's a shame that they're often so terrible at getting answers that are useful for anything beyond parlor conversation. Anyway... marriage sure seems to be getting less necessary, socially. As long as the laws are written as they are, it sure as hell ISN'T obsolete. (It sure as hell makes hospital stuff and kid stuff a whole lot less paper-buried, e.g..) I like the symbolism of it, still. In the right hands, it's sweet and life-affirming. But then, so's chocolate. (We're still looking to do that part of it justice-- we made things legal all practical-like, shortly before YoungerPooper pushed her way out of Mom's wa-wa.) BetterHalfer's more willfully old-fashioned about the whole thing.

SteveJRogers Nov 27 2010 11:01 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Edgy DC wrote: including three of the four Beatles. You know, there is a reason great art (either great art or great super heroes, especially in recent years and retellings of certain character origins) comes from great pain, but FWIW, not sure if I'd use John Lennon as an example of "hey he turned out okay despite a non traditional nuclear family" And you kind of are reaching with Paul McCartney as he was in his teens by the time his mother died. Not that it wasn't a life altering event, but not one that would affect an upbringing and determining future impact the person has on society (though this example did have of profound effect on society and culture as it tuned out) as you are suggesting.

Edgy DC Nov 28 2010 02:22 AM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Sheesh, Steve.

dgwphotography Nov 28 2010 05:13 AM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

themetfairy wrote: Also, I've always joked that every school activity treats each kid as an only child with two stay at home parents and unlimited funds - that's an exaggeration It is not an exaggeration. As far as jokes go, it's funny, because it's true.

metsmarathon Nov 28 2010 08:04 AM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

my parents divorced when i was itty bitty as well. i spent years 1 through 26 or so without my dad in my life. i think i turned out well enough. i may possibly have turned out the same or better with two parents, working together in a successful marriage, but i don't think my parents were necessarily right for each other. but then, what i'd be saying is that i could've turned out better if i weren't me. and that doesn't sound nearly as uplifting as i mean it to. i think not having a dad was harder on my sisters, and my mom spent a lot more energy on them than me. after i was married, we did reconnect with my dad, and his new family. it only reinforces my belief that were my parents to have tried to stick together, it would not have been a happy marriage. but my experience does not lead me to believe that marriage is obsolete or unimportant. it only serves to reinforce the importance of entering into a marriage knowing full well what you're getting yourself into - knowing yourself, and knowing your partner, and knowing your mutual expectations, and knowing that a marriage than the wedding, and is not a fairy tale that will never require work or compromise. ... a side note. we were out for dinner with my dad and his wife and daughter last night. in the course of conversation, his wife said "you always want to give your children what you never had." the devil on my left shoulder was screaming in my ear,"say 'i do that every day.' they'll never catch on." the angel on the right won that battle.

RealityChuck Nov 28 2010 09:52 AM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

It's clearly not becoming obsolete. If it were, gay marriage wouldn't be an issue. People like the idea of a permanent commitment. As for divorce, the US has always had a high divorce rate (and, on the frontier, a high rate of abandonment -- a spouse would just up and leave and never be seen). It made no difference -- people still got married.

Kong76 Nov 28 2010 11:33 AM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

My gay married couple friends got hitched more for monetary reasons than because they wanted to live happily ever after as husband and husband.

G-Fafif Nov 28 2010 12:26 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Kong76 wrote: husband and husband That's so gay.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 28 2010 03:59 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: A lot of married peeps here. Some of us single ones, too. What u think? I'm 35 and happily single, but would take the plunge (i think, maybe) if some girl completely rocked my universe. maybe. Sheila? Honduran Hotcakes? Nah, just makin' conversation. I like the symbolism of it, still. In the right hands, it's sweet and life-affirming. But then, so's chocolate. Favorite take on it, so far. That said, agreed w/ u guys that 2 peeps, married/unmarried/straight/gay/lezzie, is irrelevant, as long as they give a shit. i wonder abott what edgy said, "compelling them to stay in for the long haul". my folks are divorced (when i was about 5) and I'm glad they divorced now that i'm all growns up & have everything in the world figured out. they were not happy and not making each other happy and (hopefully) they both ended up better off apart. would be sad to think they stayed in it when it was all futile just for me & my bros. to that end, i think 2 separate, or even 1 lone parent are better for the kiddos if there's all kinds of fighting/yelling/bullshit with 2 unhappy parents who hate being with one another. Yeah, but look at how you turned out, all fucked up and shit. No, really, please understand, by compelling, I merely mean compelling, and not forcing --- reminding folks during rough spots that they made a vow and have an obligation. If they've been through the rough spots and are still just making each other and the kids miserable, obviously there are other great success stories, including two of our last three presidents, coming from broken homes, where children were still loved and supported and encouraged. I'm just speaking statisticamally. No, I understand you & agree. Was talking to a friend of mine this morning who got married (and disappeared, a-hole) and & he mentioned he & his lady's recent 'rhubarbs'. He sorta echoed what you and JCL and tmf & others said, in that they're both way less likely to just walk away cause they're ball & chained in now. I figure you wouldn't ball & chain in to begin with unless you knew that the rhubarbs with this person are gonna be worth it. And conversely, some peeps just aren't worth the rhubarbs. I figured it all out. In the end, the secret is finding someone whose shit you're willing to put up with. That's it. The juice has gotta be worth the squeeze (via "The Girl Next Door"). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blDs0yhrGLI (true dat, homie!)

Kong76 Nov 28 2010 06:12 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

I just talked to one of my best friends who is getting re-married ... I started crying on the phone ... we love this new woman in his life ... my goddaughter's dad ... funny how this comes in the obsolete marriage thead! I am such a MUSH!

Fman99 Nov 28 2010 08:01 PM Re: Marriage... obsolete?

Kong76 wrote: I just talked to one of my best friends who is getting re-married ... I started crying on the phone ... we love this new woman in his life ... my goddaughter's dad ... funny how this comes in the obsolete marriage thead! I am such a MUSH! Hey, Sally, go do some push ups.