Master Index of Archived Threads


Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

G-Fafif Dec 02 2010 09:48 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 02 2010 10:00 AM

Penn Station: incomprehensible to those not immersed in it, according to Slate this past March. Worth watching the embedded video as an expert "wayfinder" tries to find his way amid three controlling legal authorities and gets figuratively lost. The problem at Penn Station is not that designers skipped [key] steps. It's that three sets of designers did them three times. Penn Station is owned by Amtrak, which manages its concourse on the western side of the station. But Amtrak leases the rest of the station out to the two other tenants: New Jersey Transit has the southeast corner, and the LIRR the northeast. (The Metropolitan Transportation Authority oversees both the LIRR and New York City Transit, which manages the two adjacent subway stations; their sign systems are similar to the LIRR's.) The fundamental wayfinding problem at Penn Station lies in the fact that each of these entities manages its own signs, usually without consulting the others. As a result, the station essentially has three different systems of signage. This is a crazy way to manage information at the biggest railway station in the country. The user experiences Penn Station as one place. But the current system assumes that the user experiences the station as three distinct spaces. In truth, though, as we saw in the slide show above, many journeys require travelers to cross from zone to zone. Within each of the station's three concourses, the various wayfinding designers direct users primarily to the tracks and amenities of whomever they're working for. At this, they've done a reasonably good job. It's in directing travelers to other parts of the station that Penn's sign systems often fail. Meanwhile, a recently published viewpoint, in the Times, running contrary to the accepted wisdom that Penn Station sucks, sucks, sucks, and that only by restoring its long-annihilated glory will goodness thrive. This is a diorama of our recent history. People love to say they miss the ragged, gritty, vivid aura of New York in the ’70s. Yet it still lives! Down in the corridors of Penn Station, you can appreciate how much effort it takes to hold off entropy. Think of it as a ’70s theme park, but without gangs or muggers or hookers roaming around ... very frequently. It is the careful chaos of this commuting ballet and the marvelous cultural freeze-frame of our city that the worshipful cult of the Old Penn Station want to destroy. The Penn Station that succumbed to progress (and whose disappearance sparked the preservation movement) is right up there with the Polo Grounds in structures I wished I had seen but didn't, but I've learned the trains run on time a lot better in this era than then.

G-Fafif Dec 02 2010 09:53 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Oh, and this, from a week earlier in NYT, with the requisite shot at what we hold dear. Grand Central gets grander, Penn Station stays penal: that is a rule of New York City. Like the Yankees and Mets, Park Avenue and Bowery, our commuter-rail hubs’ relative positions seem as fixed as those of celestial bodies.

seawolf17 Dec 02 2010 09:54 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

I read that "signs" series; it's really interesting.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2010 10:03 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Hits home. Penn Station is one of the first places I ever "knew" in New York, and also one of the few that hasn't changed whole a lot since then.

Edgy DC Dec 02 2010 10:14 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Understood and me too, but unlike Shea, I don't know that I'd miss it a lot if it was replaced by someithng suitably grander. Now, if it was replaced by a grand plastic palace brought to me by Fuddruckers and the Hard Rock Cafe, that might be a little shitty. I think taking the noble grandness out of public architecture was supposed to be more egalitarian and less aristocratic. I think it just served to make us more depressed and sap oru aspirations. Compare the central libraries for NYC and DC Oh, but let's go inside and do some research!

Ceetar Dec 02 2010 10:19 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

I love Penn Station. it's so zany, and i think I'm pretty versed in it nowadays. Although I do actually think of it as three different places. For a long time I only really knew the bottom floor, with the LIRR stuff. But now I've been there enough that I know many of it's secrets. And which long featureless hallways to walk down. Grand Central has long featureless hallways as well though. Have you ever walked down the Northeast passage? (I think that's what it's called). It's an oddly long and quiet passageway that goes 5-6 blocks underground.

themetfairy Dec 02 2010 10:55 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008)

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2010 11:09 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Penn Station is the smell. During the early to mid 80's, at first when I'd take the train home to Long Island from NYU, and later when I was working in Manhattan and commuting on the LIRR, I'd enter Penn Station by taking the steps or the escalator down from the Seventh Avenue entrance. At that spot there was an overwhelming stench of unwashed homeless people. And a candy store. The homeless smell was stronger than the candy smell, but there was a mingling sweetness to the smell that made it all especially nauseating. I just hope the smell didn't have an effect on the taste of the candy. It couldn't have been good for business, though. I always tried to rush through that area as best I could to get away from the smell. I was never inspired to linger there, much less to buy food. Ah... memories!

G-Fafif Dec 02 2010 11:32 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Penn Station at the beginning of the second decade of the 21st century is probably is as in good a shape as it's ever been, at least in the LIRR context. They did a meaningful facelift in the early-mid '90s and it took. Still a jumble, still attracts some unfortunate souls, but the whole thing generally works OK, if not grandly. The armed National Guardsmen are a sad sight, but the same could be said for any major travel hub.

Ceetar Dec 02 2010 11:39 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

themetfairy wrote: Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008) That the place where a slice of pizza is $4.5 and a cheap beer is $4?

themetfairy Dec 02 2010 01:36 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Ceetar wrote: Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008) That the place where a slice of pizza is $4.5 and a cheap beer is $4? Don't remember the price of the pizza. But a LARGE draft beer (with a good variety of brands) is $4, small ones are $2.50. I like how they give you a slice of orange in the Bud Light Wheats.

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2010 02:28 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Penn Station is the smell. During the early to mid 80's, at first when I'd take the train home to Long Island from NYU, and later when I was working in Manhattan and commuting on the LIRR, I'd enter Penn Station by taking the steps or the escalator down from the Seventh Avenue entrance. At that spot there was an overwhelming stench of unwashed homeless people. And a candy store. The homeless smell was stronger than the candy smell, but there was a mingling sweetness to the smell that made it all especially nauseating. I just hope the smell didn't have an effect on the taste of the candy. It couldn't have been good for business, though. I always tried to rush through that area as best I could to get away from the smell. I was never inspired to linger there, much less to buy food. Ah... memories! Penn Sta attracted all the homeless because Grand Central used to (and probably still does) close for a few hours each night where as PS was a 24/7 operation. The homeless were not only tolerated there but welcomed in a way and if you took 11PM or later trains they were already 2 and 3 deep around the outside of the main corridor in front of closed or abandoned shops. Having to step over bodies in order to get to your track wasn't uncommon at certain hours. Eventually they created a tickets-only waiting area as a kind of safe haven and also made it illegal to lay down anywhere in Penn Station. Those two moves combined to get rid of the over-nighters and paved the way for the return of shops to the area and a general clean up.

Ceetar Dec 02 2010 02:40 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

My favorite entrance to Penn Station is the 'main' one right in front of the Garden on 7th and 32nd. I'd hang a right and take the escalators/stairs down past the LIRR waiting room and onto my track. Now I just turn left into NJ Transit. They've somewhat recently opened that back entrance on 31st and 7th though, which I think they opened just days after I no longer needed it as a transfer from the PATH to LIRR.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 02 2010 02:53 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Ceetar wrote: Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008) That the place where a slice of pizza is $4.5 and a cheap beer is $4? As opposed to the places where oysters are $40 a dozen, pizza is $6, and take-home-remoulade is $11 a jar? Penn for the People.

Ceetar Dec 02 2010 02:57 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008) That the place where a slice of pizza is $4.5 and a cheap beer is $4? As opposed to the places where oysters are $40 a dozen, pizza is $6, and take-home-remoulade is $11 a jar? Penn for the People. The oyster bar's in Grand Central. I thought she was talking about one of those shops with the cases of beer on ice in the main cooridor.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 02 2010 03:02 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008) That the place where a slice of pizza is $4.5 and a cheap beer is $4? As opposed to the places where oysters are $40 a dozen, pizza is $6, and take-home-remoulade is $11 a jar? Penn for the People. The oyster bar's in Grand Central. I thought she was talking about one of those shops with the cases of beer on ice in the main cooridor. Yeah, that's at what I was getting. And she might have meant "Tracks," or whatever that little corner place is called near the McDonald's. Right, tmf?

Edgy DC Dec 02 2010 03:06 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

The problem at Penn Station is not that designers skipped [key] steps. It's that three sets of designers did them three times. Penn Station is owned by Amtrak, which manages its concourse on the western side of the station. But Amtrak leases the rest of the station out to the two other tenants: New Jersey Transit has the southeast corner, and the LIRR the northeast. (The Metropolitan Transportation Authority oversees both the LIRR and New York City Transit, which manages the two adjacent subway stations; their sign systems are similar to the LIRR's.) The fundamental wayfinding problem at Penn Station lies in the fact that each of these entities manages its own signs, usually without consulting the others. As a result, the station essentially has three different systems of signage. Plus you've got the Garden and the What'sItCalled Theater.

themetfairy Dec 02 2010 03:53 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008) That the place where a slice of pizza is $4.5 and a cheap beer is $4? As opposed to the places where oysters are $40 a dozen, pizza is $6, and take-home-remoulade is $11 a jar? Penn for the People. The oyster bar's in Grand Central. I thought she was talking about one of those shops with the cases of beer on ice in the main cooridor. Yeah, that's at what I was getting. And she might have meant "Tracks," or whatever that little corner place is called near the McDonald's. Right, tmf? I think it's called Rose Pizza and Pasta. In our home we just refer to it as "The place that Greg showed me that night."

Valadius Dec 02 2010 03:59 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

I once fell asleep on a train back from DC to Newark and woke up in Penn Station. I was so disoriented that I spent about 15 minutes figuring out that I had somehow managed to get to the LIRR part of the station from an Amtrak track, and then spent the next 20 minutes zooming around like a madman with a suitcase and a garment bag trying to catch a late NJ TRANSIT train out of the city. And yet some people in New Jersey got all upset that we would send trains through the ARC tunnel to a location other than Penn Station. My question is, why make Penn Station even more confusing?

SteveJRogers Dec 02 2010 07:18 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Try to find something to eat at Grand Central after 10:00 pm. Penn Station rocks! (Especially the place with the pizza and cheap beer that Greg showed me after the 14 inning Mets/Cards game in 2008) Oh I know THAT to be the case FAR too well through the years! Way too many 11:30 trains snacking on a bag of chips gotten from the Hudson News and whatnot.

SteveJRogers Dec 02 2010 07:29 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

G-Fafif wrote: Penn Station at the beginning of the second decade of the 21st century is probably is as in good a shape as it's ever been, at least in the LIRR context. They did a meaningful facelift in the early-mid '90s and it took. Still a jumble, still attracts some unfortunate souls, but the whole thing generally works OK, if not grandly. The armed National Guardsmen are a sad sight, but the same could be said for any major travel hub. I liken Penn very much to modern airport terminals. Same designs, same dreary feel. As much as I like what's on top of Penn in terms of a neat arena to enjoy hoops, hockey, concert, and whatnot (though sadly hasn't been affordable in quite a long time, but that is the same across the board), I do think its a shame that A) the original Penn is gone and B) MSG had to be moved from its second home on 49th and 50th (it was the third Garden, but second address).

themetfairy Dec 02 2010 07:31 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Rose Pizza and Pasta Review

SteveJRogers Dec 02 2010 07:35 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

All this talk though is making me have this in my head though... [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs_YQ6JuNpA

Kong76 Dec 02 2010 07:54 PM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Penn Station and the Port Authority creep me out for the most part ... but I don't have to use them much. Love Grand Central, have since I was a child. I don't eat at ten, if I have time to kill after ten at GCT I can be found with a Guiness mustache over at Conway's on 43rd.

G-Fafif Dec 03 2010 09:29 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

Don Pepe pizza preferred in Penn Station, next to Krispy Kreme, on the edge of the Amtrak area, but it keeps Grand Central hours. The place to which TMF referred definitely has staying open going for it. I heart Grand Central, but it's more like a field trip than commuting for this Long Islander.

themetfairy Dec 03 2010 09:36 AM Re: Penn Station Untangled (Slightly)

G-Fafif wrote: Don Pepe pizza preferred in Penn Station, next to Krispy Kreme, on the edge of the Amtrak area, but it keeps Grand Central hours. The place to which TMF referred definitely has staying open going for it. I heart Grand Central, but it's more like a field trip than commuting for this Long Islander. Up until a few years ago I almost never set foot in Grand Central. But now it's become a place for me to meet up with people on the East Side. I still don't know the place well, but I'm becoming a bit more familiar with it. Between growing up on Long Island and currently living in New Jersey, I've come to know Penn Station pretty well. Forget the pizza - it's the cheap beer that draws me to Rose Pizza. And the fact that they have a tv in the back; if I'm killing time while waiting for a train, there are way worse ways to do it than nursing a beer while watching SNY.