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Hall of Fame Pyramid

Elster88 Jan 05 2011 07:08 AM

The Hall of Fame Pyramid as explained by Gus Ramsey, Gus Ramsey's dad, and Bill Simmons. Jerry Koosman's hat prominently featured. [url]http://gusramsey.blogspot.com/2011/01/baseball-hall-of-fame-pyramid.html

metirish Jan 05 2011 07:15 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

I like the concept a lot, and certainly it would generate lots of discussion. That's a pretty amazing top twenty. I'll be checking out that guys blog again.

metirish Jan 05 2011 07:17 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

Koufax not on the top floor?....what floor then? What about Bob?....Feller that is

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 07:39 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

I guess I'm missing something about Joe DiMaggio's career. I guess I've always missed it. To me, he's the orginal Jeter --- a fine player elevated by Yankee mythologists unfairly and unnecessarily to a cosmic status well out of proportion with his stature, and indeed with any realistic statures. It's sad, because such guys should be as happy as anybody in the world, but the nature of the bullshit dooms them to lives of deep insecurity --- like usurpers on thrones they did not earn, always sleeping with one eye open. Yet there he is, eight for eight as one of the top 10% of Hall of Famers, while Mickey Mantle eats it. Anyhow, my alternative Hall of Fame was three-tiered: Knights of Baseball, Lords of Baseball, and Princes of Baseball.

bmfc1 Jan 05 2011 07:42 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

Simmons' column on the baseball Hall pyramid concept: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/020108

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2011 07:45 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

I've heard various variations on this idea over the years and have never liked any of them.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 07:45 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

Not too hard to tell that's written by a Red Sox fan.

MFS62 Jan 05 2011 08:05 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

Edgy DC wrote: I guess I'm missing something about Joe DiMaggio's career. I guess I've always missed it. To me, he's the orginal Jeter --- a fine player elevated by Yankee mythologists unfairly and unnecessarily to a cosmic status well out of proportion with his stature, and indeed with any realistic statures. Agreed. With Jeter the word often used is "intangibles". With DiMag it was "graceful". The writers and fans would embellish it with things like (I remember this one) "Mays makes the easy play look hard, Joe makes the hard play look easy". You can't quantify graceful because its, ..... well, intangible. Then there was the "I wonder how many home runs he would have hit if he'd played half his games in Fenway Park" speculation. But, now a confession. I saw him play, albeit at the end of his career. Darn if he really wasn't graceful. Later

metsguyinmichigan Jan 05 2011 08:53 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

The thing with those "best of the best" scenarios will be that there will always be people on the border, no matter where you start drawing lines. I think Bill James called his plan "The Inner Circle" or something like that. For the sake of argument, you have the Tom Seaver types who are up there with the Fellers, Spahns and Mathewsons, clearly in that circle. But Palmer is a slight notch below Seaver. But if Palmer gets in that circle, then it expands, and the guy who is not Palmer but just below gets in and so on. Before you know it, you have an inner-circle for you inner-circle. But give some credit to fans and people who go to the museum. They know the difference between Tom Seaver and Don Sutton, between Willie Mays and Tony Perez. You don't dim Seaver's plaque or Aaron's because they hang near Jim Rice or Gaylord Perry. People know.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 08:58 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

I recently read Richard Ben Cramer's biography of DiMaggio, A Hero's Life, which was by no means kind to its subject on a personal level but brought home what an immense talent and extraordinary player he was, MFY folderol notwithstanding. Looking at his numbers on BB Ref, his prime seasons are mind-boggling and his postwar seasons are close. The only thing that might make him seem less impressive 60 years after his retirement (and 75 years after he broke in) is a relatively short career compared to other greats and the fact that many who would tell you if you didn't see DiMaggio, you didn't see the best are no longer with us. Though the circumstances surrounding the relative brevity of their careers did not stem from the same root cause, I get the feeling there's a little something similar to Jackie Robinson's major league statistics at work here, that for both of them (far more so for Robinson given that he was kept out of the majors until he was 28), seeing them first-hand was vital to understanding why they're such enormous deals. (Check out Jackie's similar batters here -- you'll see a couple of names I'll bet you weren't expecting.) I'm the last person you'll find wanting to build up MFYness with "he was graceful, he was a winner," but for the first time I really understood what everybody in my father's generation was talking about with Joe DiMaggio. But fuck Jeter.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 05 2011 09:01 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

metsguyinmichigan wrote: But give some credit to fans and people who go to the museum. They know the difference between Tom Seaver and Don Sutton, between Willie Mays and Tony Perez. You don't dim Seaver's plaque or Aaron's because they hang near Jim Rice or Gaylord Perry. People know. Right on.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 09:17 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

metsguyinmichigan wrote: But give some credit to fans and people who go to the museum. They know the difference between Tom Seaver and Don Sutton, between Willie Mays and Tony Perez. You don't dim Seaver's plaque or Aaron's because they hang near Jim Rice or Gaylord Perry. People know. Well, some people know. I'd like to see the plaques arranged in an hallway that spirals inward. You start with the Rick Farrells and other fringe Famers on the outside part of the spiral, and as you move inward the players get more and more elite, until you reach the inner chamber where you have the best of the best. There would be no distinct zones; it would just be a gradual progression. And in that final chamber, you'd have something impressive, like some statues, or light effects, or angels singing, or something hokey like that. And there would also be some other exit, so that you don't have to retrace your steps on the way out.

seawolf17 Jan 05 2011 09:20 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

G-Fafif wrote: (Check out Jackie's similar batters here -- you'll see a couple of names I'll bet you weren't expecting.) No, I always thought of Jeff Cirillo as a white Jackie Robinson.

MFS62 Jan 05 2011 09:23 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And in that final chamber, you'd have something impressive, like some statues, or light effects, or angels singing, or something hokey like that. I nominate the person to design it who designed the light show on the walls of the underground passageway between the terminals at O'Hare Airport. I describe it as Disneyland on crack. Later

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 09:28 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

Benjamin Grimm wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: But give some credit to fans and people who go to the museum. They know the difference between Tom Seaver and Don Sutton, between Willie Mays and Tony Perez. You don't dim Seaver's plaque or Aaron's because they hang near Jim Rice or Gaylord Perry. People know. Well, some people know. I'd like to see the plaques arranged in an hallway that spirals inward. You start with the Rick Farrells and other fringe Famers on the outside part of the spiral, and as you move inward the players get more and more elite, until you reach the inner chamber where you have the best of the best. There would be no distinct zones; it would just be a gradual progression. And in that final chamber, you'd have something impressive, like some statues, or light effects, or angels singing, or something hokey like that. And there would also be some other exit, so that you don't have to retrace your steps on the way out. I'd like to dispense with (or, rather, expand on) the whole plaques-as-representation model, and instead note their induction in a giant locker room. Each inductee is represented by a locker corresponding to his era (if not his actual locker) peppered on the shelves with a rotating display of relics from his career --- the ball from his 300th game, the face mask from the time Stearns broke his jaw --- with the plaque mounted on the outside frame, and the jersey just hanging there, with the spikes and gloves on the seat, as if he might step up to the locker and suit up at any time.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 05 2011 09:46 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

I think the beauty of the baseball Hall is its simplicity and the determination that fans know something about the sport. Have you even been to Canton? It's the polar opposite. Now, it's been years since I was there, so it might have changed. But here's an example I thought was representative of the tone of the place. There was a trophy on display, might have been a Lombardi Trophy, and the informational panel with the display started along the lines of "This beautiful trophy is given...." And I thought, "Do they really need to tell me if a trophy is beautiful?" I can decide that, or I should know if it's important by the fact that it goes to the Super Bowl winner. As a baseball fan, I can see a World Series trophy on display and now that it's an awesome thing without the museum telling me such. By the same token, I can read the accomplishments on the baseball Hall plaques and decide for my self who is an all-time great and who is Derek Jeter. I like the way they are displayed, in order of induction. I can see that Joe Gordon was inducted in the last few years and note from the plaque that he played back in the 30s or so and draw my own conclusions that there must be a reason that they waited 50 years to induct him, and that reason is because he is not one of the all-time greats, but yet another freaking Yankee from the distant past.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 09:52 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

metsguyinmichigan wrote: As a baseball fan, I can see a World Series trophy on display and now that it's an awesome thing without the museum telling me such. They've been giving out the World Series trophy since 1967, meaning seven of them are decidedly unawesome.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2011 09:59 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

seawolf17 wrote: G-Fafif wrote: (Check out Jackie's similar batters here -- you'll see a couple of names I'll bet you weren't expecting.) No, I always thought of Jeff Cirillo as a white Jackie Robinson. You couldn't have waited until I finished my coffee? You ruined my shirt, ya punk. Benjamin Grimm wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: But give some credit to fans and people who go to the museum. They know the difference between Tom Seaver and Don Sutton, between Willie Mays and Tony Perez. You don't dim Seaver's plaque or Aaron's because they hang near Jim Rice or Gaylord Perry. People know. It doesn't dim particular players' accomplishments. But it does lower the value of this particular accomplishment-neighborhood a little. We wouldn't be having this pyramid discussion seriously otherwise.

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2011 10:12 AM Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

I'd like to note their induction in a giant locker room ... [with] the ball from his 300th game, the face mask from the time Stearns broke his jaw --- with the plaque mounted on the outside frame, and the jersey just hanging there, with the spikes and gloves on the seat, as if he might step up to the locker and suit up at any time. Or syringes and needles in the lockers of the steroid users. Torn Pete Rose betting slips on his stool. Gaylord Perry's half-spent tube of grease. A half-eaten hot dog next to Babe's glove. And if Joe Pepitone ever gets in you just gotta have his hair-dryer on the top shelf next to one of his wigs.