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2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 01:24 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 06 2011 12:18 PM

Eligible for 2012 first-time consideration: METS: Edgardo Alfonzo, Jeromy Burnitz, Danny Graves, Carl Everett, Matt Lawton, Jose Lima, Mike Remlinger, Scott Erickson DEMI-METS: Ruben Sierra (briefly a Norfolk Tide), Joe Randa (paper Met for six days), Eric Young (grew up a Mets fan) NOTABLE METS OPPONENTS: Javy Lopez, Mike Matheny, Tony Womack, Brian Jordan, Phil Nevin, Bill Mueller, Felix Rodriguez, Vinny Castilla, Tim Worrell, Jeff Fassero NOTABLE AMERICAN LEAGUERS: Tim Salmon, Brad Radke, Rick Helling BARRY STANTON'S BALLOT: Bernie Williams, Jeff Nelson

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 01:27 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

I don't see anyone there who belongs. Good news for Tim Raines and Barry Larkin, I imagine.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 01:29 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Prepare for 15 years of simmering "Bernie Baseball" haranguing.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 05 2011 01:29 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

What a weak class of first timers.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 01:30 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Shouldn't Jose Lima have gotten the dead guy's privelige and been added to the ballot this year? I'm not sure that I've liked those exceptions, but I imagine if Lima was left off this year, he won't be on next.

G-Fafif Jan 05 2011 01:32 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

I assume Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Sosa, Schilling and Biggio all held off on retiring until 2007 because they knew going up against Fonzie would be futile.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2011 01:33 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't see anyone there who belongs. "But Rick Heiling won 20 games once!" -Jon Heyman

Valadius Jan 05 2011 01:45 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

batmagadanleadoff wrote: What a weak class of first timers. The next few classes make up for this weak year: 2013: B. Bonds, R. Clemens, S. Sosa, M. Piazza, C. Biggio, C. Schilling, K. Lofton 2014: G. Maddux, T. Glavine, J. Kent, F. Thomas, M. Mussina, L. Gonzalez 2015: R. Johnson, P. Martinez, J. Smoltz, G. Sheffield, N. Garciaparra, C. Delgado

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 01:48 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Off the cuff, without checking any stats, I think I'd vote for Piazza, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Martinez, and Smoltz, and I'd think about Kent, Thomas, Schilling, and Gonzalez.

Willets Point Jan 05 2011 02:00 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

It's Lima Time!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2011 02:43 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

I'd vote every one of those guys in, save Lofton, Gonzalez, Mussina, Nomar and CarlosDos. Say what you will about the means used to get there: Barry Bonds is a deserving Hall of Fame baseball player. (So's the splinter-throwing prick, though I might forget to put him on my pretend ballot accidentally for 14 years or so.)

metsguyinmichigan Jan 05 2011 02:44 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

You'd only think about Frank Thomas? Two-time MVP, 500 homers, not only never a whiff or roid use, but a loud critic of those who did use? I think he's first-ballot material, but that's the beauty of HoF debates.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 05 2011 02:49 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

As I said, this is without looking at any stats. I haven't been paying such close attention for the last 15 years, so my knee-jerk reactions might very well be flawed.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2011 02:50 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I'd vote every one of those guys in, save Lofton, Gonzalez, Mussina, Nomar and CarlosDos. All furr of those guys deserve deep thought, though. Clemens has to get right with Congress.

metirish Jan 05 2011 07:15 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Eligible for 2012 first-time consideration: NOTABLE AMERICAN LEAGUERS: Tim Salmon, Scott Erickson, Brad Radke, Rick Helling Scott Erickson , a Met but not a noted one

seawolf17 Jan 06 2011 07:45 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

metirish wrote: Scott Erickson , a Met but not a noted one Nope. We voted; Scott Erickson NEVER HAPPENED, okay? What a weak class of first timers. The next few classes make up for this weak year: 2013: B. Bonds, R. Clemens, S. Sosa, M. Piazza, C. Biggio, C. Schilling, K. Lofton 2014: G. Maddux, T. Glavine, J. Kent, F. Thomas, M. Mussina, L. Gonzalez 2015: R. Johnson, P. Martinez, J. Smoltz, G. Sheffield, N. Garciaparra, C. Delgado Agreed. Yes to Bonds, Sosa, Piazza, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Kent, Thomas, Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz. Maybe to Sheffield and Schilling. Fuck no to Clemens. No to Lofton, Mussina, Gonzo, Nomar, Delgado.

metirish Jan 06 2011 07:48 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

MLB Network last night was trying to sell the idea that Bernie Williams is on the cusp of the HOF and might be the only viable candidate in 2012, Verducci pointed out that there were no starting pitchers on the list and that should help Morris.

TheOldMole Jan 06 2011 09:29 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

I jut can't bring myself to vote for Jeff Kent. My pix for 2013-- Mike and Craig.

Vic Sage Jan 06 2011 10:31 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

2011 Holdovers for 2012 ballot: Barry Larkin Jack Morris Lee Smith Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Edgar Martinez Alan Trammell Larry Walker Mark McGwire Fred McGriff Don Mattingly Dale Murphy Rafael Palmeiro Juan Gonzalez [Dave Parker - eligibility period expired] failed to meet 5% holdover threshhold: Harold Baines - 4.8 John Franco - 4.6 Kevin Brown - 2.1 Tino Martinez - 1 Marquis Grissom - 0.7 Al Leiter - 0.7 John Olerud - 0.7 B.J. Surhoff - 0.3 Bret Boone - 0.2 Benito Santiago - 0.2 Carlos Baerga - 0 0 Lenny Harris - 0 0 Kirk Reuter - 0 0 Bobby Higginson - 0 0 Charles Johnson - 0 0 Raul Mondesi - 0.0

metirish Jan 06 2011 10:34 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Every time I see the name Juan Gonzalez I think about huge contracts that the Mets wanted to give him , "Juan Signs"

Vic Sage Jan 06 2011 10:42 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 06 2011 10:48 AM

[u:15ulrwlc]my 2012 ballot:[/u:15ulrwlc] YES -- larkin, raines, bagwell BORDERLINE -- E.Martinez, Tramell, Walker CLOSE, BUT NO -- Morris, Lee, Murphy, McGriff NO -- Gonzo, BWilliams and every other newly elibigible player PEDs -- McGwire, Palmiero (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors)

batmagadanleadoff Jan 06 2011 10:44 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 06 2011 10:47 AM

Vic Sage wrote: 2011 Holdovers for 2012 ballot: Barry Larkin Jack Morris Lee Smith Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Edgar Martinez Alan Trammell Larry Walker Mark McGwire Fred McGriff Don Mattingly Dale Murphy Rafael Palmeiro Juan Gonzalez I think that only these players from this year's remaining candidates will ultimately be inducted: Larkin Bagwell Raines Martinez Walker Trammell My guess is that Walker will be the last of these six to get voted in and that Bagwell's candidacy will pick up considerably beginning with next year's vote. So far, I'd vote for all of those but Larry Walker, though I remain open-minded about his candidacy.

Vic Sage Jan 06 2011 10:46 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

[u:4p8kk0k0]2013: [/u:4p8kk0k0] YES -- M. Piazza, C. Biggio BORDERLINE -- C. Schilling NO - K. Lofton PEDS -- B. Bonds, R. Clemens, S. Sosa [u:4p8kk0k0]2014: [/u:4p8kk0k0] YES -- G. Maddux, F. Thomas BORDERLINE -- T. Glavine CLOSE, BUT NO - J. Kent, M. Mussina NO -- L. Gonzalez [u:4p8kk0k0]2015:[/u:4p8kk0k0] YES -- R. Johnson, P. Martinez, J. Smoltz CLOSE, BUT NO -- Sheffield, N. Garciaparra NO -- C. Delgado

metsguyinmichigan Jan 06 2011 11:11 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Vic Sage wrote: my 2012 ballot: YES -- larkin, raines, bagwell BORDERLINE -- E.Martinez, Tramell, Walker CLOSE, BUT NO -- Morris, Lee, Murphy, McGriff NO -- Gonzo, BWilliams and every other newly elibigible player PEDs -- McGwire, Palmiero (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors) What is this "borderline" and "close, but no" business? There are two categories: Hall of Famer or not Hall of Famer. Take a stand, Vic! And just getting named in a report is good enough to get a guy bounced off your list? You're giving a lot of credibility to folks who might not have earned it.

Gwreck Jan 06 2011 11:40 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Vic Sage wrote: (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors) That's a helluva criteria. Can you define how "other evidence" differs from "mere rumors" and provide an example? Perhaps with Sosa, as he wasn't in the Mitchell Report but is on your "PEDs" list.

G-Fafif Jan 06 2011 12:17 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

metirish wrote: Scott Erickson , a Met but not a noted one WOW! I totally blocked that out! Thanks for noticing.

Vic Sage Jan 06 2011 12:41 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

metsguyinmichigan wrote: my 2012 ballot: YES -- larkin, raines, bagwell BORDERLINE -- E.Martinez, Tramell, Walker CLOSE, BUT NO -- Morris, Lee, Murphy, McGriff NO -- Gonzo, BWilliams and every other newly elibigible player PEDs -- McGwire, Palmiero (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors) What is this "borderline" and "close, but no" business? There are two categories: Hall of Famer or not Hall of Famer. Take a stand, Vic! And just getting named in a report is good enough to get a guy bounced off your list? You're giving a lot of credibility to folks who might not have earned it. "borderline" means i think they have a good argument and i haven't made up my mind about them yet. "close, but no" indicates that i HAVE made up my mind. I put those categories in to give readers a sense of my rankings at this point, rather than present a merely binary "in/out" scenario, which puts Rick Heiling in the same category as Jack Morris. And McGwire and Palmiero did more than "just get named in a report"; Palmiero failed a test and McGwire admitted it. But i think you know all that, and you are just being a total dick for entertainment purposes.

Vic Sage Jan 06 2011 12:46 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Gwreck wrote: (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors) That's a helluva criteria. Can you define how "other evidence" differs from "mere rumors" and provide an example? Perhaps with Sosa, as he wasn't in the Mitchell Report but is on your "PEDs" list. Sosa was reported by the NY Times, and other reputable news sources, as being on the list of 103 players to fail the 2003 drug test. That is in contrast to Jeff Bagwell, who voters punished this year for being on a team with Ken Caminiti while simultaneously getting bigger and playing better over the course of his career (as have many other major leaguers over the years, including pre-steriod eras). but, like "michigan", you know all this perfectly well; you just have an issue with ANY kind of line-drawing in this area so your just trying to pick a fight.

Gwreck Jan 06 2011 01:49 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

To clarify: 1. Actually, I've been on record here numerous times that conclusive evidence (ie. failed test for PEDs once MLB implemented their testing program) is, in my opinion, sufficient reason to keep an otherwise-deserving player out of the Hall of Fame for those so inclined and have specifically cited Palmeiro as the obvious example. 2. You are correct that Sosa was reported by the NY Times to be on a list of positive steroids tests in 2003, at time when testing was done on an anonymous survey basis. You may recall that a Federal Court eventually ruled that the federal prosecutors who seized that information acted illegally. Sosa, of course, failed no such tests once baseball was doing so publicly and with penalties for those caught. 3. My personal belief is that the line-drawing re: PED users and hall of fame eligibility is misguided, but that's people's prerogative. My strongest objection is to what I believe to be specious logic when drawing those lines. I have no interest in a fight; just well-reasoned discussion (and debate).

metsguyinmichigan Jan 06 2011 01:53 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Wow. Was just asking a question. I am aware of Palmiero's test and McGwire's confession, and I was assuming that the criteria extended beyond those two players. Hence, my comment that just being mentioned in the Mitchell report seems kinding of damning given that some of the people in there naming names are not the most reputable folks. A little bit of an overreaction there, Vic.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2011 07:12 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

my 2012 ballot: YES -- larkin, raines, bagwell BORDERLINE -- E.Martinez, Tramell, Walker CLOSE, BUT NO -- Morris, Lee, Murphy, McGriff NO -- Gonzo, BWilliams and every other newly elibigible player PEDs -- McGwire, Palmiero (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors) I up Trammell to the "yes" list and say no to Walker (as well as everyone you said no too), i really dont know if i want Edgar in there. No to all the newly eligible players, the closest to me are Bernie Williams and Tim Salmon Bolded who i would vote for below 2013: B. Bonds, R. Clemens, S. Sosa, M. Piazza, C. Biggio, C. Schilling, K. Lofton 2014: G. Maddux, T. Glavine, J. Kent, F. Thomas, M. Mussina, L. Gonzalez 2015: R. Johnson, P. Martinez, J. Smoltz, G. Sheffield, N. Garciaparra, C. Delgado Guys like Lofton and Sheffield deserve consideration, but with those superstar classes they may have to wait. Are there also other guys who will build up on the ballot? (guys of the caliver of those who are currently waiting?) Next year is the last chance in awhile for the current carry-over ballot I'd imagine, I think Larkin gets in easily and thats uiit

G-Fafif Jan 06 2011 07:49 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

I'm not expecting even as much as an Olerud/Leiter showing, but I hope Fonzie at least makes the ballot.

Rockin' Doc Jan 06 2011 09:08 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Eligible for 2012 first-time consideration: METS: Edgardo Alfonzo, Jeromy Burnitz, Danny Graves, Carl Everett, Matt Lawton, Jose Lima, Mike Remlinger, Scott Erickson DEMI-METS: Ruben Sierra (briefly a Norfolk Tide), Joe Randa (paper Met for six days), Eric Young (grew up a Mets fan) NOTABLE METS OPPONENTS: Javy Lopez, Mike Matheny, Tony Womack, Brian Jordan, Phil Nevin, Bill Mueller, Felix Rodriguez, Vinny Castilla, Tim Worrell, Jeff Fassero NOTABLE AMERICAN LEAGUERS: Tim Salmon, Brad Radke, Rick Helling BARRY STANTON'S BALLOT: Bernie Williams, Jeff Nelson Nothing to see here. This group represents the best possible chance for those holdovers that just haven't garnered enough support to gain enshrinement in recent years.

Vic Sage Jan 07 2011 10:00 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Gwreck wrote: To clarify: 1. Actually, I've been on record here numerous times that conclusive evidence (ie. failed test for PEDs once MLB implemented their testing program) is, in my opinion, sufficient reason to keep an otherwise-deserving player out of the Hall of Fame for those so inclined and have specifically cited Palmeiro as the obvious example. 2. You are correct that Sosa was reported by the NY Times to be on a list of positive steroids tests in 2003, at time when testing was done on an anonymous survey basis. You may recall that a Federal Court eventually ruled that the federal prosecutors who seized that information acted illegally. Sosa, of course, failed no such tests once baseball was doing so publicly and with penalties for those caught. 3. My personal belief is that the line-drawing re: PED users and hall of fame eligibility is misguided, but that's people's prerogative. My strongest objection is to what I believe to be specious logic when drawing those lines. I have no interest in a fight; just well-reasoned discussion (and debate). Whether the information about Sosa was siezed illegally, or whether baseball was publically testing or penalizing anyone at the time, is utterly immaterial to the fact of Sosa's test results. This isn't a legal proceeding; its a vote to see if someone meets the criteria of the HOF which include sportsmanship, and other such trivialities. Voters are, and i am, entitled to take that information into account. And, when further put in the context of his "no hablo ingles" testimony in front of congress and the circumstantial data about his physical changes and late-career performance level increase, makes exclusion based on PEDs a rational conclusion. This is easily distinguishable from Bagwell, who has no failed test (as far as we know so far) or made any admission, or was even acused by others in Mitchell report. you wanted me to "take a stand", so i took it. I didn't like the tone you and MGIM decided to take with me. but i'm moving on... suggest you 2 do 2.

Rockin' Doc Jan 07 2011 02:25 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

Well, we pretty well know that Sammy wasn't averse to taking liberties with the rules of fair play. Aside from his suspected PEDs use, there is the matter of his "cork" addiction.