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All-time NYM Line-up

Frayed Knot Mar 16 2011 07:41 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 16 2011 10:21 PM

MLBN is doing some thing with their pre-season previews where they're naming a team's all-time best lineup. I've only seen one or two of these in passing (I don't think they've done the Mets yet) but I believe their guidelines involve picking not the best all-time player at each position but who had that team's best season at each. And if that isn't what their rules are it's what mine are so we're going with that. So the only real rule here is to pick one player per position based on the best ever NYM season with the provision that he had to play the majority of the team's game at that spot - IOW, no choosing Kevin Mitchell in 1986 as the SS just because he started a handful of games there. I'm not so interested in a batting order (although we could concoct one of those too) just on which player-seasons should constitute the starting nine. I'll kick it off with the pitcher's spot and nominate Gooden's 1985: 24-4; 1.53; 0.965 WHiP; 268-to-69 K/BB Chime in with either a counter argument to that one or make the case for the best of the best at one of the other 8 positions. Take base-running and/or defense into account if you want or at least argue that the offense (for a position player) was so much better that it overcomes any deficiencies elsewhere.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 16 2011 08:29 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

I'll nominate Carlos Beltran, 2006, for center field.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 16 2011 08:48 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

No argument with either. No. 9 on your scorecard, Darryl '87. 39 homers, 76 XBH, 36 steals (at a 75% clip), 97 walks, 310 total bases, .284/.398/.583 over 640 PAs.

Edgy DC Mar 16 2011 08:59 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Gilkey '96 kicks the ass of McReynolds '88 and Jones '69 with one of baseball's great outlying seasons. His .317 / .393 / .562 // .955 with 30 homers and 117 RBI and he's the leftfielder on any team I run out there.

Willets Point Mar 16 2011 09:03 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Fonzie '99 for second base.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 16 2011 09:13 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Oly '98 (.354/.447/.551, defense so sick it infects antiseptic) for [crossout:vfey8995]President[/crossout:vfey8995] 1B.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 16 2011 09:45 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Wright '07 for third base: 325/416/546, 30 bombs, 42 dubbles, 34 steals, Gold Glove (yeah, I know).

Edgy DC Mar 16 2011 10:04 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

What did you do in 1985? I'm Dwight Gooden and I did this. W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB Awards 24 4 .857 1.53 35 35 0 16 8 0 276.2 198 51 47 13 69 4 268 2 2 6 229 0.965 6.4 0.4 2.2 8.7 3.88 CY-1, AS, MVP-4

Frayed Knot Mar 16 2011 10:14 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

I'd probably argue for Fonzie 2000 over 1999 (although either was awesome) 80 more ABs in '99 and 14 more RBIs - but higher BA (20 points), OBA (40 pts), & Slg (40 pts) the next year.

Edgy DC Mar 16 2011 10:18 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Sorry, just realized you already got Doctor Eighty-Five. Yeah, that's a tough call between the two Fonzes.

Frayed Knot Mar 16 2011 10:22 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up Edited 4 time(s), most recently on Mar 16 2011 10:28 PM

Not the final answers by any means, just a running look at what's been submitted so far. POS PLAYER YEAR STATS P D. Gooden 1985 24-4; 1.53 ERA; 0.965 WHiP; 268 K C 1B J. Olerud 1998 .354/.416/.551 2B E. Alfonzo 1999/2000 3B D. Wright 2007 .325/.416/.546; 30 HR; 42 2Bs; GG SS LF B. Gilkey 1996 .317/.393/.562; 30 HRs; 117 RBIs CF C. Beltran 2006 .275/.388/.594; 38 2Bs; 41 HRs RF D. Strawberry 1987 .284/.398/.583; 39 HRs; 104 RBIs - AS, GG, SS

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 16 2011 10:26 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Fonzie was a better offensive player in 2000. Catcher... will be a bit complicated. '85 Carter (6.7-7.0 WAR)?

The Second Spitter Mar 16 2011 10:34 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

SS = Reyes 2006. With no apologies to those with Rey-Rey (or Elster) nostalgia

The Second Spitter Mar 16 2011 10:41 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Fonzie was a better offensive player in 2000. Catcher... will be a bit complicated. '85 Carter (6.7-7.0 WAR)? It really shouldn't be that complicated at all, unless character or personality or intangibles is relevant to the conversation.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 16 2011 10:44 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

You know how UZR and other defensive metrics are a little... inconstant? Catcher D's the most nebulous. So... a couple of Piazza years are in the conversation, as are the Hundley Ripped Fuel years.

The Second Spitter Mar 16 2011 10:54 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: You know how UZR and other defensive metrics are a little... inconstant? Catcher D's the most nebulous. I know you're too knowledgable to be implying that defensively, Piazza '00 was comparable to Carter '85 so I'm not exactly sure what you're implying?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 16 2011 11:02 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Piazza '98 or '00 were probably a bit better than Carter offensively... and latter-day (as in, Mets-tenure) Carter wasn't necessarily better enough on D to make up the gap. It's tough to say accurately, much less anything like exactly.

The Second Spitter Mar 16 2011 11:29 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Fair enough. I disagree with your second comment, but without reference to defensive stats it becomes a subjective argument. Since I never saw Carter 85's defense, outside empirical arguments I have no real leg to stand on.

Edgy DC Mar 17 2011 06:10 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

As someone who watched it, Carter's 1985 defense was nothing special. That said, I can't say the Mets' superior pitching performance can't be credited in small part ot him. (Keith Hernandez might be able to say that. I won't.)

metsmarathon Mar 17 2011 07:49 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

per baseballreference, gary carter's offense in '85 was better than any seasonal effort piazza put up as a met. carter had 5.9 offensive WAR, 6.7 total piazza in 98 had 5.7 offensive WAR, 5.5 total note that this would exclude the florida and la portions of piazza's '98. for the whole of 1998, piazza was a better offensive player than gary carter. but he wasn't here the whole year. and using bbref's WAR formula, carter was still better for the whole year, per their catching defense methodology. fangraphs roughly concurs, with carter at 6.7 WAR and piazza98 at 5.9 WAR. fangraphs would tell you that piazza00 was better by 0.1 WAR, but that still doesn't approach carter. ... i'd like to nominate strawberry90 as a possible alternative to strawberry 87. fangraphs seems to have a higher opinion of his 1990 season than does bbref. they value him as a 6.7 WAR player in 90, which far eclipses his 5.6 WAR effort in 87. bbref calls the 1987 season at 6.7 WAR, 1990 at 6.5. 87 was his best offensive season, for sure, but his defense was not great, costing 9 runs. in 90, however, in addition to smacking 37 homers and driving in 108 runs, with an A/O/S of .277/.361/.518, he also saved 18 runs defensively. both baseball reference and fangraphs use total zone to evaluate defense prior to 2002, so they're on teh same defensive footing, however shaky. the difference, then, comes down to offense. bbref has strawberry at 74 offensive runs above replacement in 87, 44 in 90. fangraphs has him at 66.3 in 87 and 46.2 in 90. 27 defensive runs is a huge swing, and would seem to call into question the validity of the total zone metric. the edge would seem, then, to belong to strawberry 87, but 90 may still belong in the conversation.

Edgy DC Mar 17 2011 07:56 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

I'm surprised his 1988 doesn't come out more highly. Offense was down all through baseball, except when Darryl was up. He led the league in OPS!

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 17 2011 08:17 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Forgive the ignorant nature of what I'm about to say but I'm suspicious of a stat that would suggest Strawberry was much better defensively in 1990 than 1987. I just am.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 17 2011 08:49 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Offensive WAR is a nice shorthand... but it isn't necessarily THE be-all/end-all. Some other kitchen-sink offensive-value stats suggest that Piazza put up the superior offensive season in 2000. Their wOBAs (Piazza's .422 w/ a league avg. of .341 VS. Carter's .369/.318) seem like a blurry push, only when you look a bit closer... Piazza's significantly superior in wRAA and wRC+, both of which adjust for the league strength/run environment (wRAA counts runs created over the league average hitter, while wRC+ scales for league AND park, right?). Plus, even if you leave aside the actual defensive evaluation*, Carter seems to get a much bigger positional-difficulty run-bump for '85 than Piazza does for '00 (8.3 to 3.0), leading to a(n iffy?) 0.5-0.6 of the difference in Fangraphs WAR. Eliminate/deemphasize the fact that Piazza caught among some better-hitting catching compatriots, and it's a dead heat in WAR, even. *And yeah, TotalZone's like a spare tire-- it's better than riding on nothing... but not much better. (TZ and a few variants are pretty much the standard in the minors.) That said, Straw had quite a few more putouts in '90, so it could be presumed that he got to a lot more flies (which could be due to a few factors-- because more were hit to him, e.g.-- but suggests he may have been a little more fleet or hardworking in '90).

Benjamin Grimm Mar 17 2011 09:01 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

I don't recall Darryl being especially hard-working in 1990.

Edgy DC Mar 17 2011 09:03 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

We put too much into the moral aspects of defense. Some years you can not work on offense, but the hits fall in. Well, maybe he was making his catches that year and getting good throws off, despite not committing any more to his defense than usual. It's important that we recognize the difference a few missed (or made) catches means to an outfielder. Jose Reyes fails to get a ball, and it's a single. Angel Pagan fails to get to a ball, and it's a double or triple.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 17 2011 09:10 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

'89 actually seems to be his pinnacle as a defensive player-- best RF in the league, TotalZone Runs-wise, his second-most putouts ever (271), and a dWAR that rivals '90... in about 20 fewer games and a few dozen fewer chances. Straw also had, by a couple different measures, his best baserunning year in '87.

Valadius Mar 17 2011 10:11 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Catcher is Piazza '00. I mean come on, he was nearly MVP that year. Sorry David, but HoJo's '89 is probably tops.

seawolf17 Mar 17 2011 10:16 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Completely agree on Piazza 2000, but Wright's 2007 was better than HoJo's '89 by any metric.

Frayed Knot Mar 17 2011 10:56 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

My recollection of Straw's defense was that it simply never got any better and that one year was virtually indistinguishable from the next. The expectation when he came up was that of a great athlete who would eventually excel at all aspects of the game. Maybe that was always a bit of wishful thinking and never totally true but he certainly seemed to have the tools of an above average defensive player at the very least. I guess as time went on all his time NOT spent fighting with the wife and/or nursing hangovers was dedicated to his offensive game and the defensive side never got much work and therefore plateau-ed early on.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 17 2011 10:59 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

seawolf17 wrote: Completely agree on Piazza 2000, but Wright's 2007 was better than HoJo's '89 by any metric. Say what you will about Jimmy Rollins, but it takes a hell of a guy to take care of David Wright's 2007 MVP award for four years and ask nothing in return, y'know?

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2011 01:15 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

I remember Darryl playing his best ball ever as a Met during the Summer of '90. Shortly after Johnson was fired, Straw went fuego and practically put the Mets in first place all by himself. I thought he also played the best defense of his Mets career that Summer. Landed an SI cover, as well. Straw had something to prove in 1990 -- his walk year.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 17 2011 02:05 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Yeah, I guess. I think maybe I'm conflating 89 with 90.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 17 2011 02:15 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember Darryl really dogging it in September of 1990, when he decided he was fed up with New York and was longing for L.A.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2011 02:46 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

You could be right. I realize that most of September is technically Summer, but I was referring to the hot dog days (July, August and perhaps some June) -- the middle of that season. Strawberry was at his Mets best then. And because this discussion considers a player's whole season, Straw's beginning and end of '90 probably knocked that season out of contention for purposes of this thread.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 17 2011 02:53 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Actually, I just checked and his September numbers weren't at all bad. What's sticking with me is how he sat out the last six games of the season. I've probably magnified that in my memory over the last twenty years. (Holy crap! It's been more than TWENTY YEARS since Darryl Strawberry has appeared in a game for the Mets. Jeez!)

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2011 03:11 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

From your link, it appears that I was remembering June.

Frayed Knot Mar 17 2011 03:11 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

Yeah, those were the games where he claimed his back hurt. As things turned out, whether Straw's bad back was real or him jaking it, either was a good reason NOT to hand him the largest contract in the history of baseball as he wanted (Mets offered him the 2nd highest behind only Canseco's) and, in the end, it was bad behavior AND a bad back which caused him to get dropped from two different teams over the course of the deal he did get from the LAD.

Fman99 Mar 17 2011 04:17 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

No love for Lance Johnson '96 in CF? He put up all kinds of silly numbers that year...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 17 2011 04:23 PM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

A respectable second, no doubt (or, at least, jockeying for it with Beltran '08). But, dude... compared to Beltran in '06?

Frayed Knot Mar 26 2011 08:44 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

MLBN got around to their NYM preview and here's what they went with: P - Gooden '85 C - Piazza '99 1B - Olerud '98 2B - Alfonzo '00 SS - Reyes '06 3B - Wright '07 LF - Jones '69 CF - Beltran '06 RF - Strawberry '87 They didn't do any discussion about it, just presented the list as is. I suspect the on-air talent - and by them I mean the low-paid researchers who feed them this stuff - never even considered the likes of Bernard Gilkey because he's not associated with the Mets and especially not with one of their winning teams.

Ashie62 Mar 27 2011 10:51 AM Re: All-time NYM Line-up

I looked at 1989 Howard Johnson.. 571 AB 104 R 164 HITS 41 2B 3 3B 36 HR 101 RBA 41 SB .287 BA .928 OPS OWAR 8.5 and thought that would be very very hard to beat. David Wright 2007 604 AB 113 R 196 H 41 2B 1 3B 30 HR 107 RBI 34 SB .325 BA .963 OPS .325 OWAR But, I would say David wins this by a nose..