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Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 06:15 AM Castillo split

A lot of sources hintnig that Castillo's neck is on the block this morning, On what could be his last day as a Met, Tracksuit looks at the color issue.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 06:22 AM

Andy Martino offers a kernel of a nugget of an intriguing idea...for a column in 2007. Luis Castillo batted .302 in 2009, and played through injuries while many of his Mets teammates spent their summer on the disabled list. He was proud of this, and was stunned on Opening Day last year, when Citi Field fans booed him during introductions. "Yeah, man," Castillo says, shaking his head and wincing. "I'm not the only guy with a lot of injuries the year before, and I'm batting .300. It is what it is." But what is it, exactly? Why is one of the toughest and most passionate Mets so unpopular among fans? Asked if the issue was about race, Castillo, who is Dominican, shrugged and wondered why the public did not appreciate his willingness to play through intense foot and leg pain. "When you are hurt, you try so hard, because you don't want fans and your teammates to think you don't want to play," Castillo says. "That's hard, man, to play when you're hurt. Sometimes the fans don't understand that." Castillo, reluctant like most players to wander into a subject fraught with controversy and misinterpretation, chose not to discuss race. A friend of his only partially accepted the premise that Castillo's troubles were related to his skin color and heritage. "Yeah, sometimes that is tough," the friend, a fellow Hispanic in baseball, said about Castillo's experience. "But it's harder to say that's the main issue with Castillo, because he hasn't performed. If you had that same mistreatment of a guy that was performing really well, then it would be more obvious." Jose Reyes and Angel Pagan have played well as Mets, and have not faced the same anger. People who root for a team value production, above all other qualities, and have unleashed negativity on many white players in the past. But are nonwhite players more vulnerable to being labeled lazy malcontents, and less likely to be called "gamers?" Must they work harder to receive credit for positive contributions to the team? Castillo presents a complicated case. Yes, he came to New York as a declining player and signed a generous four-year, $24 million contract. Yes, he dropped a popup in 2009 that cost the Mets a game against the Yankees, and missed a voluntary visit to Walter Reed Army Medical Center in 2010. Those events aside, Castillo's mentoring of Reyes, willingness to play hurt and his cerebral approach at the plate have long earned him praise from teammates. The public's perception is often different. Castillo is jeered at Citi Field and at the Mets' spring home, Digital Domain Park, and abused on the Internet. In a sampling of recent Twitter posts, he is described as "lazy" and "hated." It is difficult not to explore Castillo's plight through the prism of race, because that subject has defined much of the discussion around the recent Mets. Under former general manager Omar Minaya, the team constructed a heavily Hispanic roster, and created the website LosMets.com. As in many clubhouses, players often gravitated toward cliques divided by ethnicity. The divide spilled into the public several times, as in 2007, when catcher Paul Lo Duca said of Hispanic teammates, "Some of these guys have to start talking (to the media). They speak English, believe me." Whatever its motivations, the anti-Castillo crowd might receive long-awaited news this month, as the Mets ponder releasing the infielder. The three-time Gold Glover is competing with Brad Emaus, Luis Hernandez and Daniel Murphy for a roster spot, although most scouts say he is the superior player. The veteran, whose efforts have never been accepted in a city that prides itself on acceptance, is left to wonder about his future. Thursday, Castillo sat on a bench in front of his locker, looked up and asked a reporter: "What do you think will happen?"

Benjamin Grimm Mar 18 2011 06:35 AM Re: 2nd Base 2011: Who do you PREDICT? (Revisited)

I don't think it's a skin color thing. I think it's the $6 million per year contract and the dropped pop fly. The masses need a scapegoat for 2007 and 2008, and the frustrations since then, and unfairly or not* Luis Castillo has been picked to be one of them. *I think it's unfair.

bmfc1 Mar 18 2011 06:41 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Awww, poor Luis. He's a shadow of the player that he once was, can't field, can barely run, can only hit singles, but we're racist because we don't like him. It was time for him to go a year ago but today would be good. Aww, poor Tracksuit, having no relevance anymore. He doesn't know how to effectively use social media and still thinks that people should wait for the newspaper to read about the Mets. He can go,too.

metirish Mar 18 2011 07:11 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Terrible hackery form Martino , never once have I heard a Mets fan complain about Castillo and then insert race to the mix...

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 07:11 AM Re: 2nd Base 2011: Who do you PREDICT? (Revisited)

They hated on him well before the pop fly, and I think it's clear that Mets of color and foreign-born Mets have a different row to hoe regarding fan indulgence. That said, Martino has nothing there. No new angles, no juicy quotes, no Castillo willing to take the bait.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 07:21 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Few explicitly insert race into the mix. But it's there. It's all over this team and its fanbase. For all I know it's all over baseball, but the racial and nativist resentment surrounding this team is as persistent and evergreen as Jay Horwitz.

metirish Mar 18 2011 07:31 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I didn't mean to imply that race is not an issue with this team , just that among my Mets friends(mostly you lot) people don't care about a players race. I think the medias fascination with Los Mets from 5/6 years ago had left a negative imprint on this org.

metsmarathon Mar 18 2011 07:32 AM Re: 2nd Base 2011: Who do you PREDICT? (Revisited)

i'm certain that a small part of it is a communication barrier, where between a native speaker and a non-native speaker, nuance and connotation may be misapplied and misinterpreted. i'm also certain that racism will never ever disappear, because stupid people are everywhere, and those stupid people are often loud enough that they can be heard above the din of intelligent banter. then the drunks hear something stupid and, well, it gets even louder. its not about race for most met fans, of that i'm certain. unfortunately, for too many others, it is about imagined moral and character flaws realizing themselves as degraded performance on the field. we want our athletes to play as well as they care, and care as well as they play, and imagine that the two are inexorably tied. we want our athletes to play hard, but not get hurt, because injury is weakness, of strength and spirit. we want our athletes to recover immediately, and with no setbacks or lingering effects, because recovery is solely about how much you care, and how good a person you are, and how hard you try. we feel this way, because... well... i dunno... i guess we feel that if only we cared more, we could be in the majors. if only we were strong of body and soul, we would never get hurt, and if only we tried hard enough, all our injuries would fade away. but we're not playing pro ball on hte highest level, we do ourselves get hurt, and healing takes time. and so we ourselves are uncaring, weak, morally corrupt, and unwilling to fix it. we suck, so we need our stars not to... and lets not get into potential unfulfilled. jeez, lets not even begin to touch that one.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 07:39 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Yeah, but the fans' response is still there years later, Whether it's us or not, it's still a story (which Tracksuit does a terrible job with, I think). Google "Mets sign Raul Chavez" and it's better than even money one of the first responses below the story will be something along the lines of "o great, another latino! I thou Omar was GONE!" It's just there and needs to be discussed. My experience suggests that nine times out of ten, if a player has labels of moral failure like "lazy," "jaking," "baby," "only cares about the money," "million-dollar arm/ten-cent head," we're talking about a non-white or foreign-born guy.

metsmarathon Mar 18 2011 07:43 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

racism is everywhere and it is pervasive. but not everybody is a racist. it's just the blithering idiots. i actually think the nativism is a greater factor than racism. far greater. it's just buried a little deeper. oe: classism, too.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 07:45 AM Re: 2nd Base 2011: Who do you PREDICT? (Revisited)

metsmarathon wrote: unfortunately, for too many others, it is about imagined moral and character flaws realizing themselves as degraded performance on the field. But this is the crux. As baseball gets more expensive, the fanbase gets whiter. The greater virtues get projected onto the players folks identify with. The lesser ones onto the players they don't. It's always been there but it has to be discussed, because fueled by beer and frustration, it gets ugly, regressive, and sometimes dangerous. (Hold for a moment. I'm going to split and merge.)

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 07:48 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

metsmarathon wrote: racism is everywhere and it is pervasive. but not everybody is a racist. it's just the blithering idiots. i actually think the nativism is a greater factor than racism. far greater. it's just buried a little deeper. oe: classism, too. Agreed.

metirish Mar 18 2011 07:58 AM Re: 2nd Base 2011: Who do you PREDICT? (Revisited)

Edgy DC wrote: metsmarathon wrote: unfortunately, for too many others, it is about imagined moral and character flaws realizing themselves as degraded performance on the field. But this is the crux. As baseball gets more expensive, the fanbase gets whiter. The greater virtues get projected onto the players folks identify with. The lesser ones onto the players they don't. It's always been there but it has to be discussed, because fueled by beer and frustration, it gets ugly, regressive, and sometimes dangerous. (Hold for a moment. I'm going to split and merge.) As baseball gets more expensive, the fanbase gets whiter. I guess conventional thinking says this is true but in the small sample size of games I go to I see plenty of non whites , and it's not just whites complaining here about Castillo.

The Second Spitter Mar 18 2011 08:06 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

G-Fafif wrote: Thursday, Castillo sat on a bench in front of his locker, looked up and asked a reporter: "What do you think will happen?" The last line is desperate to earn our sympathy (the temptation to included the word "dejected" somewhere in that sentence must have been difficult to overcome), almost as if Luis was asking the question without being prompted. However, to me it sounds like the sort of question you throw back at somebody who has just asked a really stupid question. Edgy DC wrote: Few explicitly insert race into the mix. But it's there. It's all over this team and its fanbase. I have no wish to politicize this thread, but these problems tend to arise when you start advertising a person's race at the point they are hired, as if it is a positive attribute to carry out their job, or is a positive reflection on the organization. Statements like "first Hispanic GM" really irk me. Or in Willie's case, "First African-American manager in New York". FFS.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 08:08 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

What's lacking in this piece is any actual fan perspective on a story that's supposed to be about what "the fans" (as if we're all a homogeneous mass) are thinking, beyond an anecdotal reference to Twitter. There are dozens (and dozens) of active blogs eliciting hundreds (and hundreds) of comments daily. There's Facebook. There are no doubt databases in Flushing with contact info for those who are Mets customers that an industrious reporter can probably gain access to. Through these media, one can initiate actual human contact with actual human Mets fans. And oh yeah, there are frigging thousands of Mets fans coming in and out of Port St. Lucie where he is right now. Interview somebody. Get somebody on the record. Talk to ten or twenty or more fans. Sit in the stands for a few innings of an exhibition game (as opposed to Tweeting away in the press box) and if you see/hear somebody booing Castillo, ask why. Probe a little. Ken Davidoff wrote a non-ethnic piece in Newsday today, the crux of which is blame the Mets for giving him the money, not Castillo for taking the money: Mets fans who shake their fist at Castillo miss the point. It shouldn't surprise you that a middle infielder with heavy mileage, particularly one so reliant upon speed, should acquire the injury bug. It's a familiar argument made on behalf of any and every albatross who's ever been been aggressively unloved by a vocal portion of fans. Davidoff and Martino and their credentialed brethren see these guys as human beings whose performance and skills they may mock in the course of a season and career...but still human beings. Which is swell. If they were covering Castillo with such intricacy since 2007, he might be viewed more multidimensionally in general. But mostly he's been viewed as a ballplayer whose liabilities have outweighed his remaining assets and nobody's given a damn that he may be a decent guy -- maybe even a misunderstood, wonderful guy -- behind the scenes. Which is not inappropriate. Back of the baseball card, as the cliche of the year goes. I find it darkly amusing that guys who define the physical parameters of their job as essentially the clubhouse, the press box and the dugout during BP feel compelled to tell people with whom they don't speak (save, perhaps, in 140-character bursts) what those people -- "you people" -- are thinking.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 08:13 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

G-Fafif wrote: What's lacking in this piece is any actual fan perspective on a story that's supposed to be about what "the fans" (as if we're all a homogeneous mass) are thinking, beyond an anecdotal reference to Twitter. I certainly agree. Martino punted here.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 18 2011 08:22 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Tracky's error was trying to get Castillo's take on it. But, I think he's onto something, and boy, do fans hate to even confront the idea that their notions might be rooted in unfairness.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 08:26 AM Re: 2nd Base 2011: Who do you PREDICT? (Revisited) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 18 2011 08:27 AM

metirish wrote: As baseball gets more expensive, the fanbase gets whiter. I guess conventional thinking says this is true but in the small sample size of games I go to I see plenty of non whites , and it's not just whites complaining here about Castillo. Based on my outsized sample of games at Citi Field, I'd concur, both on the diverse composition of the crowd (even if it ain't exactly the Polo Grounds bleachers in '62), and the reactions to given players by given fans. I went to Latin Fiesta night or whatever it was called in 2007, the first time the Mets wore "Los Mets" uniforms (which wasn't a twist invented by the Mets; see the San Francisco Gigantes, who were doing that stuff in 2005; the Marineros and Cervecerias may have also been ahead of the curve on that one), sat among a heavily Latin section of fans and the player cheered most heartily around me was David Wright. For that matter, based on my personal interaction with many in the blogging community, the almost endless string of impassioned, anti-Blame Beltran pieces -- the ones that beatify this guy -- are written by folks who are (DNA tests pending) quite white. I'm willing to accept there is a jerk contingent that might be swayed by non-baseball factors like ethnicity when they can't quite put their finger on why they don't like a particular player (or articulate anything deeper than "he sucks"). But mostly, I believe Mets fans want good players who win games. That's my gross generalization for the day.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 08:26 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

It almost seemed like Track was trying to bait an emotionally vulnerable Castillo into making a complaint about racial mistreatment, and that would have certainly been career suicide.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 18 2011 08:32 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

The more fans tend to conflate themselves with the team/the players, the more likely they are, I've found, to let the imagined-character-issues seep into their fan experience, and with it a messload of other prejudices. What they hate in themselves/those around them become what they hate most-- or what they think is the reflection of what they hate most-- on a ball field. I'm not sure which comes first. If baseball's getting whiter in terms of NY audience, it may be due to cost (MAYbe). But elsewhere, a ticket's still cheaper than a movie, or-- hell-- a mall visit. If said audience is getting whiter in Arlington, or Denver, or L.A., it's probably due to other factors, like the multiplicity of entertainment and sports options available to consumers of color.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 08:32 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy DC wrote: It almost seemed like Track was trying to bait an emotionally vulnerable Castillo into making a complaint about racial mistreatment, and that would have certainly been career suicide. Castillo demonstrating better judgment in this regard than former manager Willie Randolph with his "smells a little bit" comment to Ian O'Connor in 2008 when O'Connor (that hack) tried to make his shaky managerial status a race thing. One former star second baseman learning from another...sort of.

seawolf17 Mar 18 2011 08:35 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I actually thought the Castillo acquisition and signing was a solid move at the time, from a cultural perspective. I distinctly remember stories that Castillo and Santana were close in Minnesota, and I thought that was a nice idea to help keep your ace happy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 18 2011 08:36 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

G-Fafif wrote: Edgy DC wrote: It almost seemed like Track was trying to bait an emotionally vulnerable Castillo into making a complaint about racial mistreatment, and that would have certainly been career suicide. Castillo demonstrating better judgment in this regard than former manager Willie Randolph with his "smells a little bit" comment to Ian O'Connor in 2008 when O'Connor (that hack) tried to make his shaky managerial status a race thing. One former star second baseman learning from another...sort of. Don't expect the fans to interpret it that way. Already the reaction is as if Castillo made the charge.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 08:37 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

seawolf17 wrote: I actually thought the Castillo acquisition and signing was a solid move at the time, from a cultural perspective. I distinctly remember stories that Castillo and Santana were close in Minnesota, and I thought that was a nice idea to help keep your ace happy. Johan was closer to George Washington's 137.5 million twins.

Lefty Specialist Mar 18 2011 08:40 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Castillo may be a prince of a guy, but that doesn't win you ballgames. He lacks range at second and was signed to a too-long contract that epitomized the problems of the Omar Minaya era. Yes, he dropped that F#$%ing ball. He has so little power that outfielders play in on him like he was the skinny kid with coke-bottle glasses in Little League. Many balls that would otherwise be hits are caught as a result. His game offensively has devolved to 'let me see if I can get a walk'. We've all seen it; when the count gets to 3-1, you could throw a 79 mile an hour fastball right down Broadway and he'd take it. When he was a good player, his game was built around speed. That speed is long gone. None of these things have a whit to do with his skin color or my own pasty whiteness. I just want something better at second base.

TheOldMole Mar 18 2011 08:44 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Shit. I just wrote a long response to this thread, and when I went to post it, I got a note saying "someone else has just posted -- you may want to reconsider" -- and then my post disappeared.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 08:45 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Well, we didn't have anyone better last year and still buried him neck deep at the end of a bench. This is about all sorts of unfairness. I mean, he was buried behind other Latin players by a black manager working under an Afro-Latin GM. But it was still strange and unexplained.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 08:46 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Edgy DC wrote: It almost seemed like Track was trying to bait an emotionally vulnerable Castillo into making a complaint about racial mistreatment, and that would have certainly been career suicide. Castillo demonstrating better judgment in this regard than former manager Willie Randolph with his "smells a little bit" comment to Ian O'Connor in 2008 when O'Connor (that hack) tried to make his shaky managerial status a race thing. One former star second baseman learning from another...sort of. Don't expect the fans to interpret it that way. Already the reaction is as if Castillo made the charge. Yeah, good work there, Track.

The Second Spitter Mar 18 2011 08:49 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

LS. you forgot injury prone. Anybody who asks "why all the hate" either: (1) Hasn't watched any baseball for the last year, possibly longer, or (2) Hasn't received much attention of late.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 18 2011 08:54 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Castillo cut!

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 08:55 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Sholy Shit, Shatman!

metirish Mar 18 2011 08:56 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Castillo cut! Twitter is gone all atwitter with the news....

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 08:57 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

The Second Spitter wrote: LS. you forgot injury prone. Anybody who asks "why all the hate" either: (1) Hasn't watched any baseball for the last year, possibly longer, or (2) Hasn't received much attention of late. Darryl Strawberry wrote: Brokenness comes from lack of love or not being loved. LOVE conquers all! Your actions not doctrine! We show people the love of God by actually loving them through care, concern and kindness. People say "I Love You" all of the time but are you really loving that person through your actions, what you say to them, spending time with them, your attitude and tone toward them and how you treat them? That is loving.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 18 2011 09:00 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

metirish wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Castillo cut! Twitter is gone all atwitter with the news.... And just when I was about to engage a dumbass who argued that fans booing Doug Sisk somehow proved they wouldn't also irrationally hate a black player. As if the charge wasn't racism but white supremacy.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 09:00 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

The Second Spitter wrote: I have no wish to politicize this thread, but these problems tend to arise when you start advertising a person's race at the point they are hired, as if it is a positive attribute to carry out their job, or is a positive reflection on the organization. Statements like "first Hispanic GM" really irk me. Or in Willie's case, "First African-American manager in New York". FFS. To be fair, Fred Wilpon was very proud that in Art Howe he had hired New York's most Dismal-American manager.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 09:00 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Oh...and wow.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 18 2011 09:02 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 09:11 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Castillo cut! Twitter is gone all atwitter with the news.... And just when I was about to engage a dumbass who argued that fans booing Doug Sisk somehow proved they wouldn't also irrationally hate a black player. As if the charge wasn't racism but white supremacy. Hilarious that he had to go back a quarter century to find a white guy treated shittily enough to make his point. Aaron Heilman wouldn't serve?

The Second Spitter Mar 18 2011 09:14 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

G-Fafif wrote: The Second Spitter wrote: I have no wish to politicize this thread, but these problems tend to arise when you start advertising a person's race at the point they are hired, as if it is a positive attribute to carry out their job, or is a positive reflection on the organization. Statements like "first Hispanic GM" really irk me. Or in Willie's case, "First African-American manager in New York". FFS. To be fair, Fred Wilpon was very proud that in Art Howe he had hired New York's most Dismal-American manager. He may have also been the first Norwood 7- American manager in New York, too.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2011 10:27 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Martino Tweets: In response to many: Obviously expected blowback re: Castillo column. If u disagree, entitled to your view, as I am 2 mine. Stand by it 100% Just to confirm, he's sticking to whatever he decided other people were thinking without actually asking them what they were thinking. What an exemplar of courage.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 11:24 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

That nips my "Andy Martino isn't entitled to an opinion" Facebook page in the bud. Did he really write that? Is he Ms. Met?

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 11:42 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Facebook Guy wrote: Ok Mets. Castillo is gone, finally. Now how about Ollie? While you're at it, it's time to take Beltran behind the barn and put him out of his misery (and ours).

metsmarathon Mar 18 2011 12:12 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

i still hate beltran because a bunch of years ago he tried to take less money for a better chance of winning.

bmfc1 Mar 18 2011 12:15 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

The problem for Tracksuit is that he's a dinosaur. He actually wrote the other day, in his blog, that he had quotes from Sandy on Beltran but we'd have to buy the newspaper to read them. By the time the newsboy was selling copies of the paper ("EXTRA! EXTRA!"), the quotes were readily available. Despite writing for a great sports paper, he has no relevance. Adam Rubin clean his clock every day. He tries to write about the minors but Ted Berg knows the system inside and out. He acts like he knows what we're thinking because he reads our Tweets but Mets Police and Amazin' Avenue truly know the voice of the fan. He tries to write columns but he's not even close to the quality of Faith & Fear in Flushing. We see that he has no place in the media so he's yelling "racism" to try and appear relevant. He should go back to Philadelphia.

SteveJRogers Mar 18 2011 12:34 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy DC wrote: Yeah, but the fans' response is still there years later, Whether it's us or not, it's still a story (which Tracksuit does a terrible job with, I think). Google "Mets sign Raul Chavez" and it's better than even money one of the first responses below the story will be something along the lines of "o great, another latino! I thou Omar was GONE!" It's just there and needs to be discussed. My experience suggests that nine times out of ten, if a player has labels of moral failure like "lazy," "jaking," "baby," "only cares about the money," "million-dollar arm/ten-cent head," we're talking about a non-white or foreign-born guy. At the same time though Tom Glavine is not exactly held in any amount of regard by the majority of the fanbase. And if you want to say "well, he was a member of the 1990s Braves dynasty" sure, but Steve Trachsel and Aaron Heilman are also lumped in as major sources of fan ire in recent years. John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them. Just as much as Martino is cherry picking the current whipping boy, you can easily cherry pick non-minority Mets that have been the scourges of the fanbase in recent years. And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself. The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 01:00 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

SteveJRogers wrote: Yeah, but the fans' response is still there years later, Whether it's us or not, it's still a story (which Tracksuit does a terrible job with, I think). Google "Mets sign Raul Chavez" and it's better than even money one of the first responses below the story will be something along the lines of "o great, another latino! I thou Omar was GONE!" It's just there and needs to be discussed. My experience suggests that nine times out of ten, if a player has labels of moral failure like "lazy," "jaking," "baby," "only cares about the money," "million-dollar arm/ten-cent head," we're talking about a non-white or foreign-born guy. At the same time though Tom Glavine is not exactly held in any amount of regard by the majority of the fanbase. None of those labels were applied to him and I certainly didn't say players of color were exclusively criticized. I'm talking about why some people get unfairly criticized. Sometimes hated. SteveJRogers wrote: And if you want to say "well, he was a member of the 1990s Braves dynasty" sure, but Steve Trachsel and Aaron Heilman are also lumped in as major sources of fan ire in recent years. Those lables weren't applied to them either. If I meant "ten times out of ten" I would have said it. SteveJRogers wrote: John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them. You don't believe that for a minute. SteveJRogers wrote: Just as much as Martino is cherry picking the current whipping boy, you can easily cherry pick non-minority Mets that have been the scourges of the fanbase in recent years. Actually, you're cherry-picking here, Steve. SteveJRogers wrote: And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself. What comment did I pull out? I didn't aver that anybody is explictly a racist. But there are issues with double standards all around this team and this fanbase and they need to be addressed. SteveJRogers wrote: The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer. What do you mean by "it isn't a stretch"? I don't think it's a stretch. I think it's tired, derogatory, hurtful, counterproductive, ignorant, petty, and embarassing. And those comments are all over the place. The Mets aren't "guilty" of anything in building their roster, except perhaps for not building it as well as they might have.

SteveJRogers Mar 18 2011 01:27 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy DC wrote: John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them. You don't believe that for a minute. Really now. I'll give you people were preconditioned to dislike Rodriguez and Benitez based on incidents and general behavior before becoming Mets (but then again I'm sure some of that caused people around here to be preconditioned to like them). But I'd wager that Franco is just as hated as Benitez was, but the fact that it has been so long since he was a regular closer, and the fact that the Mets brought him back to the fold has changed the narrative to him being a fan-favorite. Edgy DC wrote: And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself. What comment did I pull out? I didn't aver that anybody is explictly a racist. But there are issues with double standards all around this team and this fanbase and they need to be addressed. Fine, you created a comment that you'd be sure would be plenty available in Raul Chavez signs with the Mets articles. I can buy that there are issues of double standards when it comes to certain issues within the fanbase, but at the same time you are picking on blind attempts at being funny on comment sections of articles as opposed to debates in message forums. Edgy DC wrote: The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer. What do you mean by "it isn't a stretch"? I don't think it's a stretch. I think it's tired, derogatory, hurtful, counterproductive, ignorant, petty, and embarassing. And those comments are all over the place. The Mets aren't "guilty" of anything in building their roster, except perhaps for not building it as well as they might have. So, Omar wasn't a racist, but anyone who suggests that the way he built the roster over the years is? Where there is smoke, there tends to be fire. Someone isn't going to make a snarky blind comment unless there was something to the insinuation in the first place.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 01:36 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

SteveJRogers wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: John Franco, Braden Looper and Billy Wagner gotten just as much flack as did Armando Benitez and currently Francisco Rodriguez, though the latter two do have some off the field issues that don't help their "it's all in the fans' heads" cause when it comes to ripping them. You don't believe that for a minute. Really now. I'll give you people were preconditioned to dislike Rodriguez and Benitez based on incidents and general behavior before becoming Mets (but then again I'm sure some of that caused people around here to be preconditioned to like them). But I'd wager that Franco is just as hated as Benitez was, but the fact that it has been so long since he was a regular closer, and the fact that the Mets brought him back to the fold has changed the narrative to him being a fan-favorite. Steve, you're re-writing history here. If you really want to want to go find all the negative articles written about John Franco and Braden Looper, I'll find all the negative ones written about Armando Benitez. I think we can save that time though, can't we? SteveJRogers wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: And I think it's a bit unfair to pull out a comment out of context (wow, someone being snarky on the internet, I for one am shocked...and stunned) to prove that anyone that dares suggest that the way Omar shaped his roster was racially motivated in anyway is in fact a racist him or herself. What comment did I pull out? I didn't aver that anybody is explictly a racist. But there are issues with double standards all around this team and this fanbase and they need to be addressed. Fine, you created a comment that you'd be sure would be plenty available in Raul Chavez signs with the Mets articles. I can buy that there are issues of double standards when it comes to certain issues within the fanbase, but at the same time you are picking on blind attempts at being funny on comment sections of articles as opposed to debates in message forums. I'm picking at hateful attempts at being hateful. SteveJRogers wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: The idea that the Mets were guilty of shaping the roster in that way does go back to comments and actions Omar himself had made early in his tenure. So it isn't a stretch to see someone make a snarky "gee I thought Omar was gone" retort on an article on the Mets signing a Latino ballplayer. What do you mean by "it isn't a stretch"? I don't think it's a stretch. I think it's tired, derogatory, hurtful, counterproductive, ignorant, petty, and embarassing. And those comments are all over the place. The Mets aren't "guilty" of anything in building their roster, except perhaps for not building it as well as they might have. So, Omar wasn't a racist, but anyone who suggests that the way he built the roster over the years is? When I call somebody a racist, I'll let you know. SteveJRogers wrote: Where there is smoke, there tends to be fire. Someone isn't going to make a snarky blind comment unless there was something to the insinuation in the first place. Seriously? Steve, seriously?

SteveJRogers Mar 18 2011 01:58 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy DC wrote: Steve, you're re-writing history here. If you really want to want to go find all the negative articles written about John Franco and Braden Looper, I'll find all the negative ones written about Armando Benitez. I think we can save that time though, can't we? Wait, are we talking articles or blather on the interwebs and call in radio shows? I thought we were more talking about that when it came to perceptions of team decision making and hatred on players. Also I'll throw in a caveat for you when it comes to Benitez vs Franco & Looper. You can make a case that the Mets weren't all that relevant for negative articles and columns to be written during most of Franco's reign and the final months of Looper's. But of course you can shoot holes in that logic by saying the Mets weren't relevant last year and there were negative Castillo articles all over the place. Edgy DC wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: Where there is smoke, there tends to be fire. Someone isn't going to make a snarky blind comment unless there was something to the insinuation in the first place. Seriously? Steve, seriously? Okay fine. That can probably be amended that if there are more than just a small handful of conspiracy theorists out there (9/11 "truthers", people wanting to know exactly where President Obama was born, JFK assassination buffs, etc) the comment shouldn't be dismissed as being hateful (be it towards Omar or the Mets organization as a whole) and racially motivated. Dismiss them for being silly and reactionary, but not because the author is a racist or is simply a Mets hater (this is a conversation that comes up with Yankee fans that I know, where Omar's actions have always been presented as racially motivated as opposed to simply bad baseball moves).

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 02:06 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Shorter sentences, please. I'm having trouble parsing.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 18 2011 02:33 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

To be fair, Edge... isn't it fair to say that O brought quite a bit of the "Los Mets" stuff himself with the assertion, post-Pedro-signing, that he was AIMING to bring a larger Latin quotient to town for, like, vague recruitment reasons with IFAs? (And Steve, are my eyes being wonky, or did you just defend Truthers and Birthers on the grounds that there are a lot of them?)

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 02:40 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I'm not sure what he said or what he brought on himself. Look, if I'm the only one who is bothered by what I see as some of the uglier shit that has bubbled up in the culture surrounding this team, I'll happily drop it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 18 2011 02:42 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I didn't mean to convey that I'm not bothered by it. I was just speculating that this particular depressing, energy-sucking strain of vocalized race-baiting ("Los Mets," circa 2006-2011) was invited in the door by Minaya's poor communication skills. (An early harbinger of the damage those would bumblingly wreak, as it turns out.) Ultimately, whatever kicked it off... it's obviously taken on a life of its own. And, sadly, yelling at these idiots in the room has preempted any real, substantive talk about the issues that Tracksuit clumsily addressed.

SteveJRogers Mar 18 2011 02:47 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: To be fair, Edge... isn't it fair to say that O brought quite a bit of the "Los Mets" stuff himself with the assertion, post-Pedro-signing, that he was AIMING to bring a larger Latin quotient to town for, like, vague recruitment reasons with IFAs? (And Steve, are my eyes being wonky, or did you just defend Truthers and Birthers on the grounds that there are a lot of them?) HA! No, I was making a correlation with people who see Omar making moves due to racial motivations as one key factor to making the moves due to smoke being there for the tin hat community to latch on to. There is enough shreds to pick on when it comes to Omar's motivations, as there is to 9/11 being an inside job or Obama being born in Keyna. I think I'm trying to say I'd rather not think that any co-workers or RL friends who give me the business about Omar's moves are doing it based more out of getting a rise out of the Met fan in me. As opposed to what they feel about Latin Americans in general.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 18 2011 02:54 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I do see the ugliness, but I'm not convinced it's localized to the Mets community. I suspect that Mets fans are subject to the same forces that are increasing the ugliness in society at large. There's a lot of anti-Hispanic fervor out there these days. They're seen as illegals who come here just to steal low-paying jobs and to give birth to American citizens. And there's that whole "I refuse to have to press one for English" movement.

Edgy MD Mar 18 2011 02:59 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

If you read back, I hope I've made it clear that I don't assert that it's not localized to the Mets community. But it's my community. And I'm embarassed by it. As in all things, I prefer my community lead and not follow.

The Second Spitter Mar 19 2011 08:50 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Craig Calcaterra puts the issue to bed: Read in full For Martino’s part, he never accuses anyone of racism, but notes that nonwhite players tend to be called lazy more often than white ones are, notes the divide between Hispanic and non-Hispanics in the Mets clubhouse in recent years and recalls how much criticism Omar Minaya took for seeming to favor Hispanic players when it came time to fill out the roster. And Martino isn’t wrong to make those observations. Quite right actually, at least in the abstract. But just as everyone will acknowledge that the concept of racism exists in general while never admitting to being a racist themselves, no one will ever acknowledge that Luis Castillo was hated because of race even if they admit that there are clear dynamics in sports that cause us to evaluate and talk about players of color in ways we never evaluate or talk about white players. Especially on recent editions of the New York Mets. In other words: this inquiry will probably get us nowhere. And Martino will probably find himself on the defensive before sundown, with everyone talking around this issue as opposed to about it. So in fewer words, Martino just wanted attention?

Edgy MD Mar 19 2011 09:31 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I don't think that's what Calterra is saying. Nor do I think it's in bed. At least, not for any quiet slumber.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Mar 21 2011 06:35 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Man, I just read through the comments over at the Daily News site. I feel awful inside now. Why is it, in 2010 in America, no one can ever talk about race like an adult in a public forum? Martino's article is completely fair, calling Castillo's case a "complicated one" and accusing no one of anything. He only raises the possibility that, perhaps, just maybe, there is a racial component to the Mets' fans' virulent hatred of Luis Castillo, a player that's not all that terrible and, honestly, maybe not even all that overpaid (Check it out- since trading for him, the Mets have paid him about 21 million dollars. According to Fangraphs, he's been worth about 17 million. An overpay, natch, and he's not getting better, I don't think, but the contract is no where near as bad as, say, Oliver Perez's). Martino's article is a prompt. It's the beginning of a conversation about race and sports media and fandom, and most of the comments he gets in reply tell him to shut his mouth (or worse). Why? Why can't we talk about race? Ever? "Racism" is an imprecise word loaded with so much ethical and political history and value it's hardly useful to use it. Its accepted definition in most media has been narrowed and narrowed to the point it can only be used to describe a specific type of bogeyman wearing Klan robes and holding a torch, but surely there are problematic racial attitudes that are, if not pervasive, much more widely spread than people let on. I'll often read comments that minimize the extent of ugly racial attitudes. They'll say it's a small minority of people with opinions that aren't socially acceptable. Whenever I read this, I have to wonder whether I've just lived my entire life in the wrong social circles or if those commenters aren't being entirely truthful, either in their comments or with themselves. Cuz my experience has been that as soon you get someone in a situation where they feel they can let their guard down, let you in on the secret attitudes they have towards people, a ton of them will start spewing some repugnant shit. And these are otherwise decent people from all sorts of backgrounds and in all sorts of social situations. Again, this is just anecdotal and maybe my experience is completely different from other people's, but I couldn't tell you how many times people will drop an N bomb or blame the Jews or the immigrants or whoever the second they feel they won't be judged by the people they're talking to. And that's just the overt stuff, never mind more nuanced, less conspicuous concepts like hegemony. I mean, there are reasons there's only one Hispanic guy (and no Black people) on this list. There are reasons why Jeff Francoeur is treated one way and Carlos Beltran is treated another. But how can we ever address these issues if no one's ever allowed to talk about them?

batmagadanleadoff Mar 21 2011 06:48 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I tend to agree with you for the most part. I didn't see what was so offensive about Martino's piece, either. I thought that Prince made a good point earlier on about how Martino could have done some more interviewing to flesh out some ideas. But other than that, I didn't find the article off-base or incendiary.

Frayed Knot Mar 21 2011 07:20 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

The problem with comments about race usually isn't the comment itself but the over-reactions to the comment. So when Martino says race may have played a role many fans read it as being told that any anti-Luis sentiment can only be the result of racism and that they're incapable of making a baseball thought outside of that prism. First WFAN Castillo-related call I heard the other day was from a guy who said that because these Latin ballplayers come from nothing they tend to get lazy as soon as they get a big contract. I'm sure he doesn't think his comments had anything to do with race.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 21 2011 07:40 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Good post, Vincent Van Go. The reaction to Tracky that carried the day basically was "how DARE he?" Almost nobody wanted to confront what went into their unsullied opinions. I'd also suggest that a good bit of this hatred of Castillo (and to a lesser extent, Ollie) was fanned by Tracky's compatriots in the media who turned the entirety of Spring Training coverage into a countdown to their respective release dates and made an issue of non-issues such as attendance at military hospitals. Also, ironically, how Jerry managed these two last year: I think Perez should have been in the rotation while on the roster, rather than in the doghouse, and something would have had to give. And we've been over Castillo's curious benching.

Edgy MD Mar 21 2011 07:44 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

I agree with Coleman broadly and celebrate his courage, but I thought Martino fumbled the ball badly there, wondering out loud but not working hard enough to come up with any meat, talking to nobody but Castillo (who tried not to take the bait) and a nameless buddy. The end result was that the next day, Castillo --- already under siege --- ends up looking like the racial whiner, when he wasn't.

Ceetar Mar 21 2011 07:45 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Frayed Knot wrote: The problem with comments about race usually isn't the comment itself but the over-reactions to the comment. So when Martino says race may have played a role many fans read it as being told that any anti-Luis sentiment can only be the result of racism and that they're incapable of making a baseball thought outside of that prism. First WFAN Castillo-related call I heard the other day was from a guy who said that because these Latin ballplayers come from nothing they tend to get lazy as soon as they get a big contract. I'm sure he doesn't think his comments had anything to do with race. Guy behind me at the Friday game was spouting off about Omar's latin agenda and all that, and make some crack about Jose. So yeah, there is racism involved and in probably just about everything in the world. But he should look around that press box a little because plenty of the guys in there clamor for David Eckstein and Jeff Francoeur.

Edgy MD Mar 21 2011 07:48 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Ceetar wrote: But he should look around that press box a little because plenty of the guys in there clamor for David Eckstein and Jeff Francoeur. Whoah, you went there.

Ceetar Mar 21 2011 07:56 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: But he should look around that press box a little because plenty of the guys in there clamor for David Eckstein and Jeff Francoeur. Whoah, you went there. I should've gone up to the press box on Saturday and said it to his face, but I'm rather non-confrontational. Only people I talked to were two bloggers. I'm just in a foul mood, cause yesterday I was in Florida watching baseball and today i'm at work. I actually think too much is made of race in general, on both ends. Guys like Orlando Hudson and Jermaine Dye claiming it's why they didn't get signed, and the fans who think the people that love Francoeur but hate Beltran are racist and not just lazy writers that like a good quote.

Edgy MD Mar 21 2011 08:06 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

But there's a certain degree of a race issue in there, isn't there? If you have a job to do, and a story to get, that should mean going into more challenging situations, talking to guys who you are less comfortable with, who are less comfortable with English, who perhaps trust you less, workng hard to suss out the nuance in their meaning when they perhaps can only express themselves broadly in English, and presenting the work they do in an equal (if more elusive) light.

Ceetar Mar 21 2011 08:23 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Edgy DC wrote: But there's a certain degree of a race issue in there, isn't there? If you have a job to do, and a story to get, that should mean going into more challenging situations, talking to guys who you are less comfortable with, who are less comfortable with English, who perhaps trust you less, workng hard to suss out the nuance in their meaning when they perhaps can only express themselves broadly in English, and presenting the work they do in an equal (if more elusive) light. That goes into all sorts of subtle things like unintentional racism and gets all gray area like. But yeah, I imagine there's some measure of these guys taking the easy way out and trying to fill stories and quotes from guys they're more comfortable with. I'm not trying to be accusatory here (certainly not, as i'm mono-lingual myself) but how many of these beat writers have even a rudimentary understanding of spanish? Rubin? Lennon? Martino? anyone? You watch some of the low-A guys working out on the back fields, and it's _all_ spanish.

Edgy MD Mar 21 2011 08:42 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

My Spanish is pretty bad. I work with a group that is probably 55% black, 40% Latino, and 5% white. I find myself working most intimately with those I'm most familiar with and comfortable with and that's frequently going to be the guys I'm most like. But to do a good job, I have to catch myself and push myself beyond my comfort zone. To fail in this regard isn't pariticuarly racist. To not care to succeed, though, is. The truth is that I probably get accused of racial/ethnic discrimination every week. It gets my cackles up but I've got to absorb it and deal with it, and be honest that it's not always completely invalid. It's important to distinguish beween racist acts, which happen a billion times a day in often small and subtle ways, and racists, folks that openly, aggressively, and shamelessly delight in practing them. Discussing how we and those around us engage in the former, is not to state that we're all among the latter.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Mar 21 2011 10:38 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

batmagadanleadoff wrote: ... I thought that Prince made a good point earlier on about how Martino could have done some more interviewing to flesh out some ideas. ... Edgy DC wrote: ... but I thought Martino fumbled the ball badly there, wondering out loud but not working hard enough to come up with any meat, talking to nobody but Castillo (who tried not to take the bait) and a nameless buddy. ... Well, yeah, I'm not gonna say Martino's methodology is sound, nor is his piece anywhere near a complete idea; but in his defense, he is writing for a tabloid sports section and not, say, The Journal of Black Studies or something. But, I suppose there are ways he could expand this idea into a larger article for the same paper and maybe try to answer some questions rather than just asking them. And if he doesn't want to do the heavy lifting himself, there's no shortage of academic work being written about the relationships between race, sports media and fandom that he could reference. My problem is that I don't think he can be fairly considered very far off-base, but most of the reactions to his article are of the what JCL called the "how DARE he" variety. And because saying anything about race has become such a taboo, the conversation that should follow this seed of an idea will never happen in the mainstream. And that's troubling.

Edgy MD Mar 21 2011 10:43 AM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

Sure. But that's also why he has to be responsible and dilligent. It's completely lousy but completely predictiable that Castillo caught the blowback there.

Edgy MD Mar 19 2012 01:06 PM Re: Speedo Tracksuit Discovers Los Mets

We almost missed yesterday's anniversary of Castillo's release and Tracksuit's article.