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Barry Bonds

Number 6 Mar 23 2011 11:50 AM

Barry Bonds is on trial for perjury, and I have absolutely no interest in defending him. He’s an egotist, a malcontent, and a misanthrope. He made the wrong decision, regardless of the degree of culpability assigned him given the backdrop of the same mistakes made by his colleagues. Barry Bonds didn’t invent steroids, nor did he pioneer their usage. He wasn’t the first to choose them, nor the last. But he chose them nonetheless, and he lied about them, and he’s impugned himself and his record to an insurmountable extent as a result. Now that’s been said, I will throw it all away, and say that I don’t care. Barry Bonds was the best player I am likely to see in my lifetime. If we’re allowed to equate sport with art (and I feel that permission here should surely be granted), Barry Bonds was a one-man Renaissance. If you were to create a Hall of Fame for the truly transcendent talents - not just superlative athletes, but a class of true batsmith genius – how many would be enshrined? Ruth, Williams, Mays, Wagner, Cobb… Bonds? Ruth is generally considered to be the greatest of all time, the Beatles of batsmen. But, didn’t the Beatles have an advantage? The “greatest” title must be reserved for pioneers; if you did it first, you don’t just have ability, you have ingenuity. Through your transcendent skill, intelligence, and attitude, you push a raw art beyond its nascent boundaries. You force upon it, whether by will or by the sheer force of your blunt talent, the new rules and ideas that are the inevitable evolution of your game. You are a genius, but you are also a perfect storm. Who was as big as Ruth? At the time, Ruth didn’t look like a ballplayer to most. But that paradigm quickly became irrelevant, obsolete – a testament to ignorance. Today, we have any number of players who have the body and build of Ruth, or Cobb, or Wagner. Fewer rules, fewer expectations. Results rule. Your nationality, your height, your color, your personality, your girth, your family history - all are increasingly subservient to what you’re capable of in the quick moments following your step to the plate, or your kick of the rubber. While it’s possible that not everything’s been done, what constitutes baseball has greatly expanded since Ruth ruled the roost. We watch and love a refined game. If you’re the latest to prove your genius, you are, necessarily, standing on the shoulders of Giants. I believe that obliterating the framework of an evolved art is a greater accomplishment than pushing a raw art into previously uncharted territory. Yes, Ruth was the one true pioneer of power. But tell me, how often was he intentionally walked, in a two-run game, with the bases loaded? You could call it denial, and maybe you’d be right. But I was there for the Barry Bonds Renaissance, and I plan on treasuring it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 23 2011 11:53 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Well, I can't disagree with any of that. I just kinda wish it didn't happen like it did.

Edgy DC Mar 23 2011 11:58 AM Re: Barry Bonds

If Ruth is the Beatles Barry Bonds is maybe Nirvana.

sharpie Mar 23 2011 12:03 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Cobb is Elvis Wagner is Chuck Berry Mays is the Rolling Stones Williams is Led Zeppelin

Edgy DC Mar 23 2011 12:09 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Mantle:The Who Musial: Buddy Holly

TheOldMole Mar 23 2011 12:27 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Robinson: Otis Redding

metirish Mar 23 2011 12:28 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Jeter is David Cassidy man this thread went pear shaped in a hurry.....good post #6

Number 6 Mar 23 2011 12:36 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Oh, I like where this thread is going.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 23 2011 12:41 PM Re: Barry Bonds

I know it was just a brainstorming thing, but Bonds-as-Nirvana-- the differing career shape, the differing sort of impact-- is kind of sticking in my craw. Only, I'm not sure where else to go with that. Bonds as Radiohead, Bonds as Jay-Z? If anything, someone like Sosa's more Nirvana. Out of nowhere, whambam impact, avatar of a wave of sluggers, then a crash.

metirish Mar 23 2011 12:47 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Ron Darling is Radiohead surely It's cool to say you like Radiohead even when you don't cos they make music for intelligent people and it's always nice to drop them in a conversation , just like it's always nice to name drop Darling in any conversation about college baseball....

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 23 2011 01:08 PM Re: Barry Bonds

If I were making your case, I'd go Darling as Pixies, with... Adam Dunn as Radiohead? But actually, I think the Pixies are Barry Larkin, mebbe. This is, by a long way, the most Klosterman thread I've ever seen in here.

Gwreck Mar 23 2011 01:27 PM Re: Barry Bonds

sharpie wrote: Mays is the Rolling Stones If Ruth is the Beatles, I think Gehrig is the Rolling Stones. And Mays is Springsteen.

G-Fafif Mar 23 2011 01:31 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Bonds is Michael Jackson: No denying the greatness let alone track record, but after a while who could bear to watch? A-Rod is Madonna. Mike Schmidt was Elton John. Dale Murphy was Huey Lewis.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 23 2011 01:33 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Ooh... Michael Jackson is it, almost exactly, right down to the split career. Mays is a perfect Stones. Gehrig's, like, Cream.

HahnSolo Mar 23 2011 01:34 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Gwreck wrote: If Ruth is the Beatles, I think Gehrig is the Rolling Stones. And Mays is Springsteen. I'm Springsteen? Come on man!

Benjamin Grimm Mar 23 2011 01:35 PM Re: Barry Bonds

I'm so clueless about this stuff that I can't tell if these analogies have made the transition from serious to ironic.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Mar 23 2011 01:44 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Gary Carter = Sammy Hagar Nomar Garciaparra = the Strokes Julio Franco = the Isley Brothers

Edgy DC Mar 23 2011 01:44 PM Re: Barry Bonds

G-Fafif wrote: A-Rod is Madonna. Works at so many levels that it hurts.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 23 2011 01:45 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Sid Fernandez is Lord Sutch Heinie Manush is Quicksilver Messenger Service. That's an obvious one. Warren Spahn is The Hindu Love Gods. Gary Carter is Tom Jones.

G-Fafif Mar 23 2011 01:45 PM Re: Barry Bonds

In terms of rewriting the record book from page 1, Albert Pujols is Garth Brooks.

metirish Mar 23 2011 01:53 PM Re: Barry Bonds

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: If I were making your case, I'd go Darling as Pixies, with... Adam Dunn as Radiohead? But actually, I think the Pixies are Barry Larkin, mebbe. This is, by a long way, the most Klosterman thread I've ever seen in here. I can see that , Darling and the Pixies career overlapped too , although the Pixies were hitting it big when Ron was toiling in the AL, and let's be honest here , most anyone I knew who liked the Pixies were chancers , upper middle class poofters really, Darling often gives me that vibe too, like his shit don't stink. Adman Dunn is Coldplay no?, the wankers Radiohead....Dunn being the wankers version of a good outfielder Dunn is Coldplay - mindless bollox

Edgy DC Mar 23 2011 02:05 PM Re: Barry Bonds

I'm going with George Brett as The Velvet Underground. Tony Gwynn is The Temptations.

metirish Mar 23 2011 02:08 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Edgy DC wrote: I'm going with George Brett as The Velvet Underground. Tony Gwynn is The Temptations. reasons?, we need reasons, more fun.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 23 2011 02:10 PM Re: Barry Bonds

But see... Radiohead actually IS good. (At least, for stretches.) Ooh, wait... I've got it. Ichiro is Radiohead. Everyone swears he's good, a unique "game-changer"... only nobody can really put it into words that nail it. And is he REALLY that good, or is he just the evolutionary Yes (George Sisler)?

metirish Mar 23 2011 02:14 PM Re: Barry Bonds

I like it , Ichiro could even pass for Thom Yorke on a dark night....so good they are boring really right? we probably won't really appreciate either until they are long gone....

Number 6 Mar 23 2011 02:16 PM Re: Barry Bonds

metirish wrote: upper middle class poofters Note to self: use this phrase sometime in the next 24 hours.

Edgy DC Mar 23 2011 02:16 PM Re: Barry Bonds

metirish wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I'm going with George Brett as The Velvet Underground. Tony Gwynn is The Temptations. reasons?, we need reasons, more fun. The Temps and Tony were both clean cut, classy, and chivalrous but with a burning fire within. They didn't dominate their era but left behind an imponderable number of hit singles. VU and Brett? Isn't it obvous?

metirish Mar 23 2011 02:18 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Obvious now of course.....Lou Reed had himself a few tar incidents too I bet...smoked that shit.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 23 2011 02:19 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Oh. OH. If Schmidt's Elton John, though, wouldn't Brett be Billy Joel?

TransMonk Mar 23 2011 02:21 PM Re: Barry Bonds

The CPF is the Derek Jeter of matching HOFers with their comparable musicians.

G-Fafif Mar 23 2011 02:27 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Ed Kranepool was Charlie Sexton but endures like Charlie Parker.

G-Fafif Mar 23 2011 02:29 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Johnny Bench = Jimi Hendrix, changing the game with every lick. Joe Morgan = Bob Dylan, a genius in his prime who became impossible to understand. Pete Rose = Jim Morrison, irresistible to many, viewed by others as obscene.

G-Fafif Mar 23 2011 02:30 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Tom Seaver, therefore, must be Clapton.

TransMonk Mar 23 2011 02:31 PM Re: Barry Bonds

metirish wrote: ...let's be honest here , most anyone I knew who liked the Pixies were chancers , upper middle class poofters really... What did you just call me?

TransMonk Mar 23 2011 02:32 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Doc = Jimi?

sharpie Mar 23 2011 03:18 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Cal Ripken is the Grateful Dead, playing on and on and on.

seawolf17 Mar 23 2011 03:29 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Reggie Jackson is Aerosmith; long-term success, affiliated with lots of teams/genres (classic rock, hair metal, pop), became a caricature of themselves after a while. Jose Canseco is Bon Jovi; stars who can draw a crowd, but there isn't a whole lot of depth there.

metirish Mar 23 2011 03:39 PM Re: Barry Bonds

TransMonk wrote: metirish wrote: ...let's be honest here , most anyone I knew who liked the Pixies were chancers , upper middle class poofters really... What did you just call me? Don't forget this is Ireland, an entirely different class of poofter. Canseco is Marky Mark without the post steroids success.

metsguyinmichigan Mar 23 2011 03:44 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Rafael Palmiero = Milli Vanilli He appeared to be good, and had great hair! Then, discovered!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 23 2011 03:45 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Canseco made a real popular impact, but hasn't shown much by way of staying power. Bon Jovi may make shallow pop-rock, but they've shown legs. I nominate Poison for the Canseco comparison. Or, if you're feeling REAL charitable... Guns and Roses. And Mike Scott's Milli Vanilli.

seawolf17 Mar 23 2011 03:48 PM Re: Barry Bonds

GNR had some depth. You're right; Canseco's Poison.

The Second Spitter Mar 23 2011 10:29 PM Re: Barry Bonds

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: And Mike Scott's Milli Vanilli. Brilliant on so many levels.

The Second Spitter Mar 24 2011 06:44 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Number 6 wrote: Ruth is generally considered to be the greatest of all time, the Beatles of batsmen. Because the Editor didn't do his job, I'll do it for him; Cricket terminology and jargon is to be avoided on baseball fora. Everybody forgot -- Kenny Rogers = Kenny Rogers - a journeyman from the South who found some success in the Country/western demographic but not in New York and in the end his career overstayed its welcome. Didn't really leave enough on the plate before he retired.

MFS62 Mar 24 2011 08:06 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Jackie Robinson was Nat "King" Cole, who broke down his own color barriers to become the first Black person to host a network TV show. Later

Vince Coleman Firecracker Mar 25 2011 06:05 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Candy Cummings = the Sex Pistols Both have dubious claims on revolutionizing their fields, leading to their over-estimation. Good, but not all that remarkable. On a related note: Abner Doubleday = Bill Haley and the Comets

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 25 2011 09:34 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Good call on Cummings. Only the Pistols' first record is still, in retrospect, pretty fucking good, so this might overrate CC/underrate Lydon et. al. And hey-- at least Bill Haley actually played music. Tony Conigliaro/Mark Fidrych = T. Rex? Bill Lee = Jonathan Richman? Steve Garvey = Van Halen

metirish Mar 25 2011 09:50 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Did I read correctly that they are measuring Bond's balls in the court proceedings?

Frayed Knot Mar 25 2011 10:02 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Alan Freed = Commissioner K. M. Landis

MFS62 Mar 25 2011 08:20 PM Re: Barry Bonds

Scott Boras = Barry Gordy - lots of talent under control. Later

The Second Spitter Mar 29 2011 05:07 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Some pretty embarrassing testimony at the trial of B.A.R.R.Y. by the ex-mistress -- - Couldn't get it up. - Family jewels shrunk - Hair fell-out - Bad-case of back acne. (This could be cue for Sherman or Murray Chass to write another Piazza bacne article)

Frayed Knot Mar 29 2011 06:58 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Having the prosecution put the scorned woman up on the witness stand during your federal trial for lying ... hate when that happens.

HahnSolo Mar 29 2011 07:54 AM Re: Barry Bonds

I have not been following the case closely, for those that are, any thoughts on the outcome? To me, from the little I've gleaned from the coverage, the government's case doesn't seem so open and shut. I imagine that Anderson not testifying for the prosecution hurt their case, but really Kimberly Bell? Yeah, her testimony was kind of embarassing to Bonds, but helping to prove a case of perjury?

Edgy DC Mar 30 2011 01:32 PM Re: Barry Bonds

"Gee-I-Am-Buy-ing great stuff from Greg Anderson."

The Second Spitter Mar 31 2011 01:22 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Given the unconventional delivery methods of both "the cream" and "the clear", it would not be unreasonable for somebody to believe they were getting something other than steroids. It's not like they were getting jabbed up the butt with a syringe (I'm not saying B.A.R.R.Y. didn't, but that's yet to come out). To put it in other words, it you asked me for something that wouldn't trigger a positive test and I gave you some drops to put under your tongue, would you believe I was giving you steroids? (I"m not directing the question specifically at you, Edgy, but to the group, in general). "The clear" may not have even been on any WADA list at the relevant time. On the other hand, "the clear" has the nastiest of nasty side-effects and any reasonable person would have cause to doubt something wasn't kosher (although the purpose of "the cream" was to alleviated some of these side-effects). However, there's stuff out there that produces bad side-effects that isn't banned. Conversely, Deca, which is a banned substance (what Giambi was taking before Anderson put him onto the "good stuff") has negligible side-effects.

Ceetar Mar 31 2011 05:22 AM Re: Barry Bonds

The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. It's like if you told me you had a headache everytime we met, and i gave you medicine. (plenty of people use it, don't worry, it's safe. no big deal) You could love the stuff and think it works great and even talk about the 'pain meds' Ceetar gave you that work so well without me ever using the word Codeine. Is it so far fetched that they keep the details of the makeup of the drugs from Bonds? It just seems to be a waste of time to fight over this.

The Second Spitter Mar 31 2011 05:34 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Ceetar wrote: Is it so far fetched that they keep the details of the makeup of the drugs from Bonds? It just seems to be a waste of time to fight over this. No it isn't. Firstly, "the cream" is not a steroid, per se. Secondly, according to Jeremy Giambi's testimony, Anderson described "the clear" as an alternative to steroids. "The clear" is THG which is a chemically altered anabolic steriod, but it's clearly a steroid (pun intended). My point is that Anderson dispensed it as a liquid to be taken orally. In those days, it was unheard of for a steroid to be taken by mouth in such small quantities.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 31 2011 09:13 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Ceetar wrote: Is it so far fetched that they keep the details of the makeup of the drugs from Bonds? It just seems to be a waste of time to fight over this. Bonds was apparently a fanatic about diet and fitness during his time with the Giants, with lifestyle-support-- nutritionists, rotating in-house chefs, and the like-- on his payroll. The point isn't that ONE might reasonably neglect to obtain information about the "medicine" he was ingesting... it's whether it's reasonable to allow that BONDS did. What he claimed is tantamount to a person with Asperger's who is absolutely obsessive-compulsive about timekeeping claiming that they forgot to set an alarm one day as an alibi. And yes, this is a gigantic waste of time and money.

Ceetar Mar 31 2011 09:27 AM Re: Barry Bonds

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Ceetar wrote: Is it so far fetched that they keep the details of the makeup of the drugs from Bonds? It just seems to be a waste of time to fight over this. Bonds was apparently a fanatic about diet and fitness during his time with the Giants, with lifestyle-support-- nutritionists, rotating in-house chefs, and the like-- on his payroll. The point isn't that ONE might reasonably neglect to obtain information about the "medicine" he was ingesting... it's whether it's reasonable to allow that BONDS did. What he claimed is tantamount to a person with Asperger's who is absolutely obsessive-compulsive about timekeeping claiming that they forgot to set an alarm one day as an alibi. And yes, this is a gigantic waste of time and money. Drawing Asperger's comparisons is beyond me, I don't understand it well enough to extrapolate. But wouldn't it be similar to that person trusting something enough to be true, say the digital clock in the bathroom, that he himself did not set, but a trusted friend/advisor/trainer? He trusts it's the correct time through the proxy of trusting that person? That's disease stuff though, I'm thinking more conspiracy angle. They purposely didn't discuss the exact details of what he was taking to allow for that plausable deniability. You see in in 24 all the time. "I'll take care of Bauer Mr. President. Don't you worry about a thing. As far as you know, he fled the country."

Frayed Knot Mar 31 2011 09:49 AM Re: Barry Bonds

The reason I'm tending to the side of 'why bother' on this case is that all along it seemed like the Gummint (Novitsky et al) were more interested in landing the biggest names for the biggest pub (ie. athletes) than they were in dealing with the guys who were actually concocting the stuff in the first place. It's like they got so torqued off at Barry's arrogance and refusal to admit his share in "staining the game" that it far surpassed their interest in Victor Conte for creating the drugs and a whole distribution network. Once Conte was essentially sent away with a slap on the wrist I started to lose interest.

Edgy DC Mar 31 2011 09:52 AM Re: Barry Bonds

The gumming takes perjury seriously. Barry (it appears) could have cooperated and walked, but was more willing to be a perjurer in the eyes of the feds than be a cheater in the eyes of baseball.

Frayed Knot Mar 31 2011 10:03 AM Re: Barry Bonds

They do and should take perjury seriously but it seemed like their tactic from the very beginning was to say the hell with the ringleaders and see if/how many athletes the could get to either fess-up and embarrass themselves or commit lie to avoid it; like the aim was to goad them into perjury because in the end it would make for the better publicity and perp-walks.

Edgy DC Mar 31 2011 10:14 AM Re: Barry Bonds

But who did they fail to go after? Both Comte and Anderson did time. BALCO was wrecked. Korchemny cooperated and got probation. This case may be too big and dragged out for the size of the target, but that's often what happens when rich folks like Bonds and Marion Jones decide to throw themslves into a vigorous defense instead of working out a deal. Shit drags on and the public and media get fatigued. That's certainly part of what their lawyers count on.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 31 2011 10:18 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Ceetar wrote: Drawing Asperger's comparisons is beyond me, I don't understand it well enough to extrapolate. But wouldn't it be similar to that person trusting something enough to be true, say the digital clock in the bathroom, that he himself did not set, but a trusted friend/advisor/trainer? He trusts it's the correct time through the proxy of trusting that person? Iffy analogy on my part, meant to illustrate that, by all reports, Bonds wasn't the I-trust-you-to-know-FOR-me kind of guy regarding supplements/diet/anything going in him or out of him. (As it just isn't in the nature of someone who's hard-wired to care about and depend on clocks and alarms to "forget" to set one... it isn't in Bonds' nature to do what he's saying he did. Apparently.) Edgy DC wrote: This case may be too big and dragged out for the size of the target, but that's often what happens when rich folks like Bonds and Marion Jones decide to throw themslves into a vigorous defense instead of working out a deal. Shit drags on and the public and media get fatigued. That's certainly part of what their lawyers count on. Famous, successful athletes don't seem to like to plead, even when offers are available and in their best interests. I imagine it feels to them like losing on purpose.

Edgy DC Mar 31 2011 10:30 AM Re: Barry Bonds

I get the idea that they're willing to put their freedom and treasure on the line to protect their legacy, which they view as more valueable.

Frayed Knot Mar 31 2011 10:45 AM Re: Barry Bonds

Conte did a bare minimum as if they were narc cops who for some reason were cutting deals with big cocaine dealers in order to lock up as many street-level users as possible rather than the other way around. I have no sympathy for Bonds, Jones and the rest, it just always seemed to me the the priorities were skewed in this whole mess.

Edgy DC Mar 31 2011 10:52 AM Re: Barry Bonds

If Bonds and Jones had rolled on their suppliers, they wouldn't be looking at ten seconds.