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Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Valadius Apr 21 2011 06:43 PM

[url]http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjnpvD9UEF1m7KE3gpzg.kMRvLYF?slug=ap-expandedplayoffs With both sides expressing support for adding two playoff teams in 2012, negotiators for baseball players and owners are considering having the new wild-card round be best-of-3 or winner-take-all. Because longer series would push playoffs deeper into cold weather, the sides are not considering have the new first round be best-of-5 of best-of-7. “I would say we’re moving to expanding the playoffs, but there’s a myriad of details to work out,” Commissioner Bud Selig said Thursday at his annual meeting with the Associated Press Sports Editors. “Ten is a fair number.” Since 1995, eight of the 30 baseball teams make the playoffs. In the NFL, 12 of 32 teams make the playoffs. In the NBA and NHL, 16 of 30 advance to the postseason. In the new format, the two wild cards in each league would meet, and the winners would advance to the following round against division winners. “The more we’ve talked about it, I think we’re moving inexorably to that,” Selig said. Discussions have taken place as part of collective bargaining for a labor deal to replace the one that expires in December. Players want to make sure the new format doesn’t cause lengthy travel with little recovery time. “We’ve had a healthy exchange on a number of alternatives,” union head Michael Weiner said, “but the sides recognize there has to be a balance of competitive considerations, economic considerations and player safety considerations.” At the bottom of the piece: Selig also expressed confidence the Mets will be able to sell a minority interest in the team and raise money, relieving some of the pressure caused by a lawsuit from the trustee seeking to recover money for victims of Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme. “I’m very confident that they set out a process to sell part of their club, and the person handling that is very confident that can happen,” Selig said, a reference to investment banker Steve Greenberg, a son of Hall of Famer Hank Greenberg. “Hopefully, the Mets will find a suitable partner and do it posthaste.” Selig said teams had reduced their combined debt by $1 billion in the past year but he would not say what the industry debt total currently is. He said baseball’s debt rules “could use some change, modest change, and we’re working on those.” A wild card round works for me.

Frankenstein Apr 21 2011 06:52 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

BAAAAAAD!

TransMonk Apr 21 2011 06:55 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

This was inevitable. They have been talking about it for years. At least now any Wild Card team has to play extra games while the Division Winners essentially get a bye. That's a tiny prize for winning the division.

Gwreck Apr 21 2011 07:08 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Horrible. Atrocious.

Rockin' Doc Apr 21 2011 07:48 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

I don't like it at all.

Fman99 Apr 21 2011 07:52 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

I like it just fine. Give the division leaders a clear advantage over the wild card, give more teams something to play for in September. But they should shorten the regular season to 154 games, or work some more doubleheaders in, to get everything done before November.

Nymr83 Apr 21 2011 07:53 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

I have mixed feelings, but if I was going to expand this is how I would do it... only one more team per league and force the wildcards to have the serious disadvantage of an extra round while their next opponent ets to rest up.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 21 2011 08:21 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

This sucks. Any day now, Selig will cite, as inspiration for this idea, the super secret fan poll that nobody's allowed to audit and no one even remembers taking place, where the fans demanded this. Apparently, hardly anyone that posts here voted for expanded playoffs. Fman99 wrote: I like it just fine. Give the division leaders a clear advantage over the wild card. The plan is for the two Wild Card teams to meet in the first playoff round. After one of the WC teams is eliminated (in each league), we're right back where we are now: one WC team and the three division leaders. This is going to dilute the already diluted races for first place.

Edgy DC Apr 21 2011 08:39 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

I'm not sure I get that. The Wild Card team is forced to play another round of playoffs, thus restoring a motive for a team that has clinched a Wild Card spot to continue to pursue the division.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 21 2011 08:53 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Edgy DC wrote: I'm not sure I get that. The Wild Card team is forced to play another round of playoffs, thus restoring a motive for a team that has clinched a Wild Card spot to continue to pursue the division. That's correct. But after the pure WC round, one WC will stil remain in each league. Given the high degree of luck that occurs in a baseball game, more so than in any other of the team sports, the odds of a WC team making it to the WS, and also winning the WS, -- in my opinion -- are 4-1 -- or even money, or no worse than the odds of the best first place team team in the league winning the Pennant. This is what happens when you have relatively good team playing a few games against each other in a game where luck is prevalent, and decisive to a much greater degree than in other sports. As I see it, the best baseball team has no significant advantage over a WC team in one series. For the record, there have been 16 World Series in the Wild Card era. A Wild Card team has appeared in the WS nine times out of 32 spots (2 x 16 WS), slightly better than one in four. A Wild Card team has won the WS four times out of 16 WS -- precisely one in four. That a Wild Card team is even allowed to participate in MLB's post=season dilutes the concept of WS champ.

Edgy DC Apr 21 2011 08:58 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

So now their odds are cut from one in four to one in eight, or probably more like one in ten, considering the disadvantage of having to survive an extra series while the other teams rest.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 21 2011 08:59 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Edgy DC wrote: So now their odds are cut from one in four to one in eight, or probably more like one in ten, considering the disadvantage of having to survive an extra series while the other teams rest. TBD.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 21 2011 09:04 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I'm not sure I get that. The Wild Card team is forced to play another round of playoffs, thus restoring a motive for a team that has clinched a Wild Card spot to continue to pursue the division. That's correct. But after the pure WC round, one WC will stil remain in each league. Given the high degree of luck that occurs in a baseball game, more so than in any other of the team sports, the odds of a WC team making it to the WS, and also winning the WS, -- in my opinion -- are 4-1 -- or even money, or no worse than the odds of the best first place team team in the league winning the Pennant. This is what happens when you have relatively good team playing a few games against each other in a game where luck is prevalent, and decisive to a much greater degree than in other sports. As I see it, the best baseball team has no significant advantage over a WC team in one series. For the record, there have been 16 World Series in the Wild Card era. A Wild Card team has appeared in the WS nine times out of 32 spots (2 x 16 WS), slightly better than one in four. A Wild Card team has won the WS four times out of 16 WS -- precisely one in four. That a Wild Card team is even allowed to participate in MLB's post=season dilutes the concept of WS champ. Points well taken, BML. But a crappy division winner getting to or winning the WS doesn't dilute the concept already?

Edgy DC Apr 21 2011 09:10 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

The New York Mets: Hey --- We Invented Diluting the World Series!

batmagadanleadoff Apr 21 2011 09:21 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I'm not sure I get that. The Wild Card team is forced to play another round of playoffs, thus restoring a motive for a team that has clinched a Wild Card spot to continue to pursue the division. That's correct. But after the pure WC round, one WC will stil remain in each league. Given the high degree of luck that occurs in a baseball game, more so than in any other of the team sports, the odds of a WC team making it to the WS, and also winning the WS, -- in my opinion -- are 4-1 -- or even money, or no worse than the odds of the best first place team team in the league winning the Pennant. This is what happens when you have relatively good team playing a few games against each other in a game where luck is prevalent, and decisive to a much greater degree than in other sports. As I see it, the best baseball team has no significant advantage over a WC team in one series. For the record, there have been 16 World Series in the Wild Card era. A Wild Card team has appeared in the WS nine times out of 32 spots (2 x 16 WS), slightly better than one in four. A Wild Card team has won the WS four times out of 16 WS -- precisely one in four. That a Wild Card team is even allowed to participate in MLB's post=season dilutes the concept of WS champ. Points well taken, BML. But a crappy division winner getting to or winning the WS doesn't dilute the concept already? For sure. And you don't even need a crappy first place team to cheapen the season. Right under our own noses, for example, the 2006 Mets seem to be mostly remembered for just missing the WS and for Beltran taking a third strike on the last pitch of the NLCS. We should instead remember the 2006 Mets as the best team in baseball that season. This cuts both ways. We have our Miracle of '69 and no one can take that away from Mets fan notwithstanding what the results would've been if the Mets and Orioles could've vied for '69 WS champs 100 times instead of just once.

Edgy DC Apr 22 2011 05:44 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Which all suggests that the Brits got it right --- crowning the football team with the best record in league play as champion and then going home.

Frayed Knot Apr 22 2011 06:54 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Selig's always been a 'consensus' kind of leader as opposed to one who gets out in front of ideas, so history tells us that he wouldn't be floating this balloon in public unless he was reasonably sure he has the votes to make it happen. The only real suspense in my mind is whether this becomes a one-game deal or a best-of-three. I'd prefer one. On the concept of the dual WC teams in general: Advantages: - It gives a REAL edge and incentive to winning the division as opposed to the phony and barely existent (and therefore ridiculously over-rated) home-field edge. Division leaders with the WC as their backup couldn't just shift into cruise control unless and until they locked up the division, and non-leaders with the WC locked up would actually have a reason to want to catch the team ahead of them. The current system has produced several seasons where teams separated by a single game throw 6th starters backed by a bunch of call-ups on the season's final day because they don't care whether they win the race or not. - Moving forward, the WC survivor absolutely would be at a disadvantage for having just used its best pitcher either in the season's final game or in the one-game play-in while the division winners get a break. The question of how you use your pitchers even throws some interesting strategy into the works: Do you use your big guy on the final day trying to win the division and avoid the WC play-in?; do you not use him hoping to squeak by and have him either available for the play-in or rested for multiple starts in the LDS? Disadvantages: - There are no complaints that the season is too short ... and this doesn't make it any shorter. And please don't start with dusting off the 154 game schedule of the weekly DH solution; those are dead-on-arrival proposals. - There could be a wild disparity in the records of the two WC (like maybe a 95 win team vs an 87) which you're settling via a VERY short series, although this isn't any worse than having a potential wild disparity between a division winner and a WC team settled via a slightly longer series. - What happens if there's either a three-way tie among non-winners or simply a two-way tie for the 2nd WC spot? We'd then need a playoff to get to the playoff which would lead you to the real playoffs? And don't say it'll never happen because it eventually will and it would be just like MLB to say; 'well we never considered that possibility before putting in this "fix" ' (see: "fixed" playoff structure circa 1981). Not addressing it would almost guarantee it would happen the first year. - If it's a one-game play-in folks will scream about it being too short and too arbitrary. If it's best-of-three you're now into "travel" days both within and before/after that round meaning a delay of the LDS round by the better part of a week. Neither solution is going to make everyone happy. And maybe the biggest problem is that nearly two decades after first introducing the WC team into the post-season this is going to strike some as pulling the rug out from under them, as in you're not really a true playoff team anymore. They would have been much better off going with the double WC format right from the start. Now it's going to seem like they've "Pluto-ized" the best WC team.

Ceetar Apr 22 2011 07:09 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

This would never happen, but what about a three games in two days scenario? Double-header wild card play in games starting Thursday 9/29. extremely pressurized meaningful baseball ALL DAY LONG. Stagger the two series so you have one at 1, two at 4, and a nightcap or something. Then if you need the third game, which essentially becomes the one game play-in, play it on Friday. Winner flies to the division winner to start the LDS on Saturday.

TransMonk Apr 22 2011 07:20 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Frayed Knot wrote: "Pluto-ized" I like that.

TheOldMole Apr 22 2011 08:14 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

It's not such an awful idea -- though I don't love it -- except for the part about the WS being played in a blizzard. It only works if you shorten the regular season. The only real interesting innovation in major sports in recent years was the NHL's choosing up sides for the All-Star game.

metsmarathon Apr 22 2011 08:16 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

i'd much prefer a one game playoff to a three-gamer. way more exciting, and better overall for scheduling. i don't want too much time off between rounds. i also think the current playoff scheduling is a farce. they should be playing 7 games in 8 days, not two weeks, or whatever it is. the playoffs should be as a continuation of the regular season in terms of pacing and scheduling. no modern pitcher should be getting three starts in a series with any semblance of his normal rest.

Frayed Knot Apr 22 2011 10:22 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

metsmarathon wrote: i also think the current playoff scheduling is a farce. they should be playing 7 games in 8 days, not two weeks, or whatever it is. the playoffs should be as a continuation of the regular season in terms of pacing and scheduling. no modern pitcher should be getting three starts in a series with any semblance of his normal rest. THAT is the biggest problem. MLB (like virtually every sport except for The Masters) lets TV dictate their schedule instead of the other way around. Networks demand exclusivity and so extra days-off are inserted to keep concurrent series from even the possibility of conflict. The other is that the introduction of the WC teams in the first place meant for the first time that you had teams that were by definition inferior to actual division winners and so all those who claimed to be fans of the concept almost immediately started concocting ways that would prevent them from winning. For most that meant they instantly became slaves to the concept of home-field advantage to the point where not only that the WC couldn't have the edge but they couldn't have the edge at any point during a series. So 2-3 series became 2-2-1 and an extra travel day is suddenly involved.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 22 2011 10:28 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Frayed Knot wrote: metsmarathon wrote: i also think the current playoff scheduling is a farce. they should be playing 7 games in 8 days, not two weeks, or whatever it is. the playoffs should be as a continuation of the regular season in terms of pacing and scheduling. no modern pitcher should be getting three starts in a series with any semblance of his normal rest. THAT is the biggest problem. MLB (like virtually every sport except for The Masters) lets TV dictate their schedule instead of the other way around. And it's on the way to the bank that ML owners are crying about all those off days being dictated to them. They'd play one playoff game every two weeks and in snowstorm if it was more profitable than the status quo. If they're letting, then there's no dictatorship.

Willets Point Apr 22 2011 11:31 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012 Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Apr 22 2011 11:44 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Which all suggests that the Brits got it right --- crowning the football team with the best record in league play as champion and then going home. I've been thinking about this myself as I watch more European football. The team that wins the most over the course of a long season have proven that they are the best team and deservedly should be the league champion. In North American sports, teams like the 2001 Mariners and the 2007 Patriots are afterthoughts despite their unprecedented success in the regular season because they failed to win their respective championship series and game. The Buffalo Bills of 1990-1993 are considered losers, even a laughingstock, despite 4 consecutive Super Bowl appearances. American sports leagues really need to do more to honor regular season champions. On the other hand, in a European football league one club can (and does) run away with the league leaving the rest of the clubs with nothing much to play for as the season goes on. Even if 2 or more teams are close at the top of the standings toward the end of the season it will only be due to serendipity if they face one another in the final game to decide the championship. I like that American sports have the drama of the best teams facing one another at the end of the season to decide the winner. Of course, European football clubs do have something to play for even if the best club in their league runs away with the title. Several of the top clubs - as many as 6 from the same league - are rewarded with a chance to play in a continental competition against clubs from other European leagues. Now in North America there aren't as many countries as in Europe and there aren't any leagues of similar quality in any of the major 4 sports that could contend in continental-wide tournament. So in a sense the playoffs for MLB, NFL, NBA, & NHL are our Championship Leagues. Considering this I think that North American sports leagues should give an award to the teams with the best regular season record that would be considered an honor equivalent to winning the post-season tournament. In baseball, this would mean that the team with the best regular season record would win the Pennant rather than the team that qualifies for the World Series. (Retrospectively, the Mets would lose their 1973 & 2000 pennants, but gain pennants for 1988 & 2006 so it's all square). I still think that too many teams qualify for the postseason tournaments (especially in the NHL & NBA) but I think shifting the perspective to allow for rewarding the teams with the best overall records as well as the post season tournament would be a good thing for American sports.

Edgy DC Apr 22 2011 11:36 AM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Good thoughts. I would add that there's also the drama of promotion and relegation motivating teams (and fans of teams) at various positoins in the standings. Draft position providing folks with a motivation to root against their team is wrenchingly wrong.

Ceetar Apr 22 2011 12:36 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Thinking about it more, the only thing this conclusively changes is that the fifth* best team in the league has a chance at a title rather than only the top 4. *Not that this is impossible now. The Yankees were the 5th best AL team by record in 2000, by 3 games. 9th overall in MLB.

HahnSolo Apr 22 2011 12:41 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Willets Point wrote: Considering this I think that North American sports leagues should give an award to the teams with the best regular season record that would be considered an honor equivalent to winning the post-season tournament. In baseball, this would mean that the team with the best regular season record would win the Pennant rather than the team that qualifies for the World Series. (Retrospectively, the Mets would lose their 1973 & 2000 pennants, but gain pennants for 1988 & 2006 so it's all square). I think the NHL does this. Yet there's not a single NHL player who would ever cherish that more than the Stanley Cup.

Willets Point Apr 22 2011 12:48 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Yes, that's the President's Trophy. I guess it goes beyond just giving the award but somehow giving prestige to go with the award as well.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 22 2011 01:03 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

I remember when "winning the pennant" meant something. People would talk about "pennant races" but that's a term you rarely hear anymore. Now it seems you have to win the World Series for your season to have been considered successful.

Gwreck Apr 22 2011 01:52 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Now it seems you have to win the World Series for your season to have been considered successful. Maybe for an over-entitled Yankee fan (?). I've always considered making the playoffs to be a successful season.

Edgy DC Apr 22 2011 02:06 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Well, in the cultural post-mortem on Omar, there haven't been a lot of warm fuzzies for 2006.

Frayed Knot Apr 22 2011 02:50 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

HahnSolo wrote: Willets Point wrote: Considering this I think that North American sports leagues should give an award to the teams with the best regular season record that would be considered an honor equivalent to winning the post-season tournament. In baseball, this would mean that the team with the best regular season record would win the Pennant rather than the team that qualifies for the World Series. (Retrospectively, the Mets would lose their 1973 & 2000 pennants, but gain pennants for 1988 & 2006 so it's all square). I think the NHL does this. Yet there's not a single NHL player who would ever cherish that more than the Stanley Cup. Especially since the President's Cup was basically an afterthought; an award made-up relatively recently (20 years?) for the sole purpose of pretending that finishing with the best record in a league where the best teams rarely survive the 10 week playoff scramble actually counts for something.

Edgy DC Apr 22 2011 02:55 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

My alternative Federation of American Baseball, once it gets off the ground, will feature regular season champions crowned as such, no playoffs, first division/second division/third division-type tiers, promotion and demotion, an in-season tournament modeled on the FA Cup, and a post-season 64-team tournament of teams representing the states of the Union.

Frayed Knot Apr 22 2011 03:18 PM Re: Selig: Playoffs Expanding to 10 Teams in 2012

Of course baseball started with the best record at the end of the year equals champion model. The creation of the World Series (which the NL champ simply opted out of in 1904) was more an 'our champ vs yours' kind of thing which only started becoming more of an internal 'playoff' only as the leagues slowly morphed together.