Master Index of Archived Threads


It's All Royal Blue's Fault

G-Fafif May 12 2011 11:00 AM

Paul Lukas gets his man: an interview with the guy who brought black into the Met color palette. Fascinating story in terms of process (and Charlie Samuels). Intriguing explanation of the drop shadows. And horrifying insight on why in particular the Mets wanted black... one thing the Mets were convinced about was that the Yankees were killing them at retail, especially with the hats, because people didn't like royal blue. ...and, even worse, what they wanted to do: [T]hey really wanted to change the whole look. And my thinking was, there's nothing wrong with this look. It looks great, the cap looks great, the road jersey with the Red Sox-y lettering is classic -- that's my favorite Mets jersey, in fact, and they wanted to make big changes to that. But I said no, you don't want to do that, you don't need to overhaul your look. Definitely has that "could've been worse" feel to it.

Edgy DC May 12 2011 11:02 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Yup. Could've been better, too.

metsmarathon May 12 2011 11:09 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

i like the look of the black home jersey, honestly. it's not bad. i don't prefer it to the others they have on tap, but i don't hate it. i'm not a fan of the black away jersey, and i do hate the black hat with the blue brim, though. and all the other bfbs. but the home jersey isn't bad. i love the pinstripes and the snow whites and the off-whites.

Edgy DC May 12 2011 11:11 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Black and royal clash. It's as simple as that. And they clash badly. Some configurations are better than others, but there's no getting around it. If you embrace the black, you've got to ditch the royal.

Benjamin Grimm May 12 2011 11:17 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I don't think they clash. Can black clash with anything? Can white clash with anything? I prefer the black-and-blue cap to the all-black one, but the classic blue is where it's at. And I have more of an objection to the home blacks than the road blacks.

TheOldMole May 12 2011 11:19 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

If you embrace the black, you've got to ditch the royal. That's what Toussaint L'Ouverture said.

metirish May 12 2011 11:26 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

What amazed me about the article is how the process came about , fair play to Lukas on this.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 12 2011 11:27 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I'm not sure that black and royal blue out-and-out clash... they're just weirdly assonant, if you will. And the darker the shade of blue-- as in the late-90s black stuff-- the more the visual near-rhyme rankles. (Me, anyway.) The black-and-blue hats are just... they're really terrible. (While the Toussaint L'Overture reference... is really sublime.)

Edgy DC May 12 2011 11:29 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I don't think they clash. Can black clash with anything? Can white clash with anything? It can and does. Believe me. Believe your eyes! The black-and-blue hats are just... they're really terrible. 'Cuz they clash. They imply sameness to the eye, and yet aren't the same, so the quality of the color is lost surrounded by a like-yet-different neighbor. It looks like something just blurred out of something else. Let me apologize in advance:

Ashie62 May 12 2011 11:30 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Blue and Orange..Thats it.

G-Fafif May 12 2011 11:35 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

The road blacks were deleted from the wardrobe after 2008. I've never terribly minded any of the black, not even if it was for black's/marketing's sake -- although I understand why (beyond aesthetics) so many do. "Sell more extra stuff" is fine, as far as that goes. "Royal blue isn't selling -- let's overhaul everything" is just stupid panic. Always hated the drop shadows, especially on the pinstripes, though I like the story behind it. I had read some years ago that Samuels was in love with the 49ers uniform that had a similar drop shadow -- perhaps it's because he won a large bet on them one Sunday. Never thought the "traditional" pinstripe of '95 to '97 was strong enough even though it wiped away the idiotic tail from '93-'94 (which, in turn, did away with the stale racing stripes). The "Mets" felt too thin. Except that it somehow seemed wrong, I found the snow white + blue cap very promising when it debuted in '97, the year before the shadow knew. They had everything right in 1969. Never should have messed with any of it, including the MLB logo.

metsguyinmichigan May 12 2011 11:40 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Sounds like Charlie should have been tossed out a loooooong time ago. I wonder if he was involved in the tail disaster of '93. I like the pinstripes best -- by far. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I own a black Robin Ventura road jersey and a black home Johan Santana jersey -- with the Shea patch! The reason? I found them at a really good price. I wear a black cap with my softball jersey because it goes with the uniform.

TransMonk May 12 2011 11:43 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I don't really care, but my least favorite are the black road jerseys that say "Mets". The road jerseys should say "New York". When they wore the road greys with the blue caps for that Yankees series a few years ago, I forgot how much I missed that look. I'm OK with the black, but would like to see it evolve into a once-in-a-while type thing.

HahnSolo May 12 2011 12:10 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

G-Fafif wrote: The road blacks were deleted from the wardrobe after 2008. Not sure what you mean here. They still wear the blacks away from Citi.

G-Fafif May 12 2011 12:11 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

HahnSolo wrote: G-Fafif wrote: The road blacks were deleted from the wardrobe after 2008. Not sure what you mean here. They still wear the blacks away from Citi. I was referring to the specific NEW YORK road blacks. The black METS jersey is the same home and away.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 12 2011 12:12 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 12 2011 12:14 PM

I'm not against changing up the looks now and again, almost all orgs do it from time to time. It's just the least surprising thing in the world the the Mets did so without having thought about it all that much or at least without thinking through its effects from every perspective. Any way you look at them they are a messed-up joke of an organization.

G-Fafif May 12 2011 12:13 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

This one, that don't exist no more:

soupcan May 12 2011 12:21 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Any way you look at them they are a messed-up joke of an organization. This. Unfortunately.

metirish May 12 2011 12:23 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

G-Fafif wrote: G-Fafif wrote: The road blacks were deleted from the wardrobe after 2008. Not sure what you mean here. They still wear the blacks away from Citi. I was referring to the specific NEW YORK road blacks. The black METS jersey is the same home and away. are you screaming NEW YORK and METS right there?

Edgy DC May 12 2011 12:25 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Nice work on the handjive by Ike. Well, they're not the only ones outfitted in clownwear. And certainly not the worst offenders. So, let's advocate for a tighter shit and spiffier look.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 12 2011 12:28 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Ike was born to handjive, baby. The lighter the blue, the better the black unis look. (Or, rather, "less bad.") It really is a visual-assonance thing.

G-Fafif May 12 2011 12:30 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

metirish wrote: are you screaming NEW YORK and METS right there? No, but if I were doing so at Citi Field, people would stare at me with disdain before getting back to their Blackberrys.

Ashie62 May 12 2011 01:25 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

G-Fafif wrote: metirish wrote: are you screaming NEW YORK and METS right there? No, but if I were doing so at Citi Field, people would stare at me with disdain before getting back to their Blackberrys. BOC

themetfairy May 12 2011 01:37 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Ike was born to handjive, baby. Or he can't resist breaking into a chorus of Dov Y Melech Yisarael.... (Which is usually accompanied by hand signs)

themetfairy May 12 2011 01:38 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

This one, that don't exist no more: That photo always makes me smile G :)

Ceetar May 12 2011 02:25 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I just don't really care about the color schemes, and would love for them to do something completely random like Orange tops.. What struck me most was the reasoning behind it. the city in shadows bit. That's cool and actually ties into the Mets tradition stuff. the other was the 'windows' thing in the script that he suggests with opening it up a little. I think that'd be a good compromise actually.

HahnSolo May 12 2011 02:30 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

The whole logic behind black caps to help merchandising and catch up to the Yankees is so ridiculous. You can sell merchandise in whatever color you want. How many red, pink, powder blue, purple, orange, green Yankee caps/shirts are sold? (I see them all the time). But the Yankees don't wear them on the field.

Gwreck May 12 2011 06:05 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I had a chance to chat with Charlie before the Omir Santos game at Fenway in 2009 and I of course (politely) registered my unhappiness with the black. Among other things learned, Charlie indicated his belief that the players preferred the black.

Edgy DC May 12 2011 06:26 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Unless players=Glavine, I don't think Felon Charile honestly spoke for the room. Black absorbs heat on hot summer afternoons (and nights). Black hides a well-earned soiling of the uniform top. Black robs from rookies the pleasure of making it to the majors and seeing a glistening unblemished uniform hanging in your locker. Black robs Ron Hodges the pleasure of spitting gobs of tobacco on said-rookie's uniform and exploding that pleasure personally. Black makes you one more indistinguishable group of douchebags. Black says, "Are we home? Are we in Phoenix? Who gives a fuck? It's all one big blur anyhow." Black is black. I want my pinnies back.

Gwreck May 12 2011 06:31 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I get that Samuels' honesty is now known to be dubious at best, but I have no reason to suspect he was making stuff up, particularly given the depth of the conversation about the uniforms. Tidbidts learned during our conversation included that it was his idea to go to the blue caps during the Mets' final game at Yankee Stadium II; that he deliberately put the Mets in blue/hats and pinstripes for "big games" in recent years (NLCS Games 6/7; last game of 2007 and 2008 seasons), etc. Again, not that I would even trust him to work a restaurant coat check, let alone the equipment at an MLB clubhouse, but I think it was an honest answer at the time.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 12 2011 08:06 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Oh, I'm also sure Samuels probably isn't deserving of the potential prison sentence he's looking at for hoarding Met gear in a friend's basement inasmuch as as long as the Mets had Bernie Madoff on their roster it was perfectly OK for a trusted longtime employee to help himself to dubious perks on the side.

Edgy DC May 12 2011 08:38 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Yeah, I certainly don't think he was lying through his purloining teeth so much as maybe seeing the world through a self-interested lens.

Fman99 May 12 2011 08:41 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

TransMonk wrote: I don't really care, but my least favorite are the black road jerseys that say "Mets". The road jerseys should say "New York". I've said this many times. The road jersey should have the name of the city; the home jersey the name of the team.

DocTee May 12 2011 08:46 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

That Toussaint line was the best of hte year. the quality of the color is lost surrounded by a like-yet-different neighbor. It looks like something just blurred out of something else. They're "caught between the two, like a shade between two shades." -- Paul Muldroon (or is it Joyce?)

Edgy DC May 12 2011 09:19 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I went to my evening job and one of my regular clients, a hothead Trinidadian named Ron, shows up in a tee-shirt with Toussaint L'Ouverture on it. It's not every day you encounter L'Ouverture twice.

metsguyinmichigan May 12 2011 09:42 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Fman99 wrote: TransMonk wrote: I don't really care, but my least favorite are the black road jerseys that say "Mets". The road jerseys should say "New York". I've said this many times. The road jersey should have the name of the city; the home jersey the name of the team. See! The MFY's can't even get this right!

Centerfield May 13 2011 07:32 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

This one, that don't exist no more: That photo always makes me smile G :) Agreed. I love the way Dakota is checking underneath the hat to make sure it's her father. My daughter does this too. She'll be bouncing along, and then gets struck with the thought "Wait, who am I sitting on again?" and pulls my face around to make sure it's me. When Turk was traded, Edgy posted something along the lines of "Sure, we'll let them have Turk, but can we keep Dakota?" Couldn't agree more.

Edgy DC May 13 2011 07:41 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I'd be terrified to see what kind of 13-year-old monster she turned into.

batmagadanleadoff May 13 2011 07:54 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

one thing the Mets were convinced about was that the Yankees were killing them at retail, especially with the hats, because people didn't like royal blue. It's gotta be the hats. Because it couldn't have been that the Yankees had overtaken the Mets in popularity by winning the World Series in '96, and by finishing no lower than second place for five straight seasons while the Mets were pelting themselves and other living things with bleach, live firecrackers and golf clubs. No. That couldn't have been it. It was the hats. Typical Wilpon Mets. Why bother to fix the team when instead, they can market it by selling the fans a phony bill of goods about how black is one of the Mets official colors according to the newfound dubious revisionist history? And don't forget to remind the fan base every seven minutes that Rey Ordonez is the Babe Ruth of fielding. Did you know that Babe Ruth wore a dark cap?

batmagadanleadoff May 13 2011 02:47 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

batmagadanleadoff wrote: one thing the Mets were convinced about was that the Yankees were killing them at retail, especially with the hats, because people didn't like royal blue. It's gotta be the hats. Because it couldn't have been that the Yankees had overtaken the Mets in popularity by winning the World Series in '96, and by finishing no lower than second place for five straight seasons while the Mets were pelting themselves and other living things with bleach, cum, live firecrackers and golf clubs. No. That couldn't have been it. It was the hats. Typical Wilpon Mets. Why bother to fix the team when instead, they can market it by selling the fans a phony bill of goods about how black is one of the Mets official colors according to the newfound dubious revisionist history? And don't forget to remind the fan base every seven minutes that Rey Ordonez is the Babe Ruth of fielding. Did you know that Babe Ruth wore a dark cap? If Paul Lukas is reading this thread, maybe he can redial Bob Halfacre and see if Bob can recreate, from memory, the proposed design concept that would've been a complete overhaul to the Mets uniform. I'd like to see what monstrosity it was that Halfacre's sound intervention spared us from.

Fman99 May 13 2011 08:31 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Here it is...

Centerfield May 14 2011 05:19 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I don't mind the black. (ducks) In fact, if I had to eliminate one uniform, it would be the pinstripes. (ducks again) The blue hat was, by far, my favorite. But ever since the orange dot, I feel like it's ruined. So my hat of choice lately has been this Spring Training hat: Of course, if the orange dot were to disappear, I'd go back to blue in a heartbeat. So, when I buy a controlling interest in the Mets it will be: Snow whites at home, blue hat (no orange dot) Road Greys with Old English NY, blue hat (no orange dot) This would be for 80% or more of the games. I'd be ok with the black uniforms or some other alternate jersey once in a while. In fact, I think a solid blue jersey could be cool if done right. All uniforms would say "Mets" at home and "New York" on the road. In fact, I would lobby to turn this into a law.

themetfairy May 14 2011 08:31 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I agree wholeheartedly with Death To The Orange Dot! And I like the black unis. So there! Not every day (except during winning streaks), but as part of the mix.

soupcan May 14 2011 10:42 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Note to self: don't let CF beat me in a bidding war for majority ownership of the Mets. When I'm running things, this will be the deal: Home: pinstripes (no black drop shadow. 'City of Shadows' be damned), blue hats. I'm okay with the dot, but if getting rid of it will appease my friend, then - begone dot! Road: road grey, 'New York' across the chest, no friggin' shadow. Black hats with the blue brim. No other black anywhere on any uniform. If the public is absolutely clamoring for an 'alternate' uniform then the bone I will throw them will be the snow whites (again, no drop shadow) and that they will wear on Sunday home games with either the blue hats, or the black/blue road hats. I'll let my honest equipment manager decide that.

Benjamin Grimm May 14 2011 11:44 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Soupcan has my vote.

G-Fafif May 14 2011 11:50 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

I adore the dot. When it was introduced, I was surprised we didn't have it for 35 years. Made all the sense in the world. They could have stopped there with the innovations. Perhaps they could go with a wider NY and a navy cap if they're worried about how their sales stack up to other teams'.

Rockin' Doc May 14 2011 12:35 PM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Fman99 wrote: I've said this many times. The road jersey should have the name of the city; the home jersey the name of the team. I agree 100%. It should hold true for all teams. I'd make it a rule for all teams if I had the power to do so.

The Second Spitter May 18 2011 12:08 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Yet some O's fans are repulsed by the idea of having the name of their city on their jersey. As for the black debate - it's funny enough, at my former Mets cyber-home the black jerseys were accepted and loved, and I more or less shared this view. Then the topic came up in a conversation with Gwreck (iirc on the 1st occasion I attend a game with him) and he made a very logical argument which led me to despise them. However, the black is now ingrained in Mets folklore (Grand Slam Single, etc), so I guess we should preach tolerance? (But i'd still love for the return of the royal alternate - sans silver lettering).

Edgy DC May 18 2011 06:58 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Tolerance? Sure. But tolerance of the accoutrements of the past doesn't mean advocating for the the perpetuation of them. A lot of wonderful tand memorable things happened to the Mets while they wore racing stripes down their sides. Nobody's calling for them to be brought back.

metsmarathon May 18 2011 08:25 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

i miss the racing stripes...

Edgy DC May 18 2011 08:29 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Did you feel that?

MFS62 May 18 2011 08:41 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Fman99 wrote: I've said this many times. The road jersey should have the name of the city; the home jersey the name of the team. I agree with two exceptions. The teams that deserted us for California should be required to have their city names on both their home and away uniforms. Those team names "belong" here. Later

HahnSolo May 18 2011 10:38 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

Never, ever been a fan of the black, even the trim. But I also never quite got all the hatred for the orange dot.

Vince Coleman Firecracker May 19 2011 10:35 AM Re: It's All Royal Blue's Fault

When I own the team: Pinstripes at home, no drop shadow. Blue hats with or without orange dot. Grey "New York" on the road, no drop shadow. Same hats as home. Blue stirrups and undershirts both home and away. (Better yet, these stirrups, with orange stripes.) Alternates can switch from year to year between the snow whites with no black and a button-down version of the racing stripes uni. And put the "NY" back on the skyline logo.