Master Index of Archived Threads
After "Madoff's Curveball"
batmagadanleadoff May 23 2011 07:17 PM |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/sport ... ubles.html
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Ashie62 May 23 2011 07:56 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Mets fans would agree with Wilpon that Jose Reyes is not worth “Carl Crawford money;” that David Wright is “a really good kid,” but “not a superstar;” and that Carlos Beltran is “65 to 70 percent of what he was.”
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G-Fafif May 23 2011 10:38 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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From Waldstein: Big Pelf stops fiddling with his cap and licking his fingers long enough to make with the subtle Midwestern humor (I recognize Kansan when I hear it).
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Edgy DC May 23 2011 10:40 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Come on. You've backed the trash truck up and dumped on all three of those guys. With passion and vigor you have.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 23 2011 10:41 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Here's the obligatory cheapass video:
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G-Fafif May 23 2011 10:45 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Worth the entire fusillade of idiocy just for that. I don't suppose Jeffy has ever taken a good picture.
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soupcan May 24 2011 07:47 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Jose isn't worth that kind of deal. Not saying he won't get it, but he isn't worth $20 million per for 7 years. Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway. The Carlos thing I'd mildly disagree with but I understand why he said it and why he feels it.
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TransMonk May 24 2011 08:02 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I feel the same way as Soupy.
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seawolf17 May 24 2011 08:17 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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LALALALALALALA I AM NOT LISTENING LALALALALALALA
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themetfairy May 24 2011 08:35 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Assuming arguendo that everything that Fred said was right, I nonetheless think that it shows poor judgment for a team's owner to say those kind of things in front of a reporter.
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Centerfield May 24 2011 08:51 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Agreed. The issue is not whether these are true, or whether any one of us agree with them. It's the fact that it's idiotic for an owner to be saying such things to a reporter. I say it goes beyond poor judgment...and into "What a fucking idiot" territory.
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batmagadanleadoff May 24 2011 08:58 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I'll bet that in the end, nothing will come of Fred's disses. I understand the inevitable firestorm of reporting that Fred's comments generated, but in the end, whatever destiny awaits Beltran, Reyes and Wright as far as re-signing with the Mets or going elsewhere, will happen anyway -- unaffected by yesterday's comments. That's what I believe. If Alfred Hitchcock were still alive and agreed with me, he'd say that Fred's comments are one big MacGuffin.
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dgwphotography May 24 2011 08:59 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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My CEO just used those exact words in reference to Fred.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 24 2011 09:11 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I agree with that too, but what matters, sort of, is the perception that what's to come will be colored by these remarks. I don't know if that can ever be undone. As Edgy said it's an image business he's in. I also agree with the columnists who pointed out what selfishness and lack of accountability the whole thing illustrates, as if clearing his name in the Madoff thing justifies whatever damage might come to anyone else.
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metirish May 24 2011 09:16 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I hate to be a prick but can someone relieve Jay Horowitz of his job. I have felt for a long time that this organization needs an outside public relations firm and not the bumbling Jay beloved by many but seemingly incapable of doing this job.
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batmagadanleadoff May 24 2011 09:21 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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The shitstorm that has befallen the Mets this week won't end with Fred's New Yorker comments. Sports Illustrated's next issue will include a feature on the Mets in which Wilpon remarks that the Mets are "bleeding money" and are poised to lose another $70M this season.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/ ... BHeadlines
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Ceetar May 24 2011 09:23 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I definitely see some of that. It's sounded like he's been pretty hurt by the stuff written about him re: Madoff. Maybe he's a littled jaded/tired of it. Anyway, since when do rich guys have any accountability except to other rich guys that cheat them out of millions?
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TheOldMole May 24 2011 09:54 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I'm sorry. If Reyes is worth Crawford money to some other city that's got no love for him, why isn't he worth that much to the Mets?
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TransMonk May 24 2011 09:56 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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See the article about the Mets bleeding cash.
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Chad Ochoseis May 24 2011 10:18 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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In what world does investing $5.9 million at 10-12% net you $1.2 million annually?
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Frayed Knot May 24 2011 10:24 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Remember that both the investment and the interest were to compound for a dozen or so years before they even began to tap into it.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 24 2011 11:02 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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By Year 5 or 6, you're over $1M annual return. (Principal keeps growing.)
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Chad Ochoseis May 24 2011 11:09 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Yeah, I wasn't aware of the 12-year waiting period on the contract. With 12 years for the $5.9M to grow, the math works out perfectly.
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Ceetar May 24 2011 11:23 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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People forget that Reyes isn't just a debit, he's also a source of revenue.
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TransMonk May 24 2011 12:08 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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In terms of what? Ticket sales? He's never going to be much better than he is RIGHT NOW, and the tickets aren't exactly flying out the door.
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Ceetar May 24 2011 12:15 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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In terms of winning. in terms of marketing a homegrown star. In terms of all the people that want to see him play, that will go to _less_ games if they trade him. A team without Reyes is frankly a less exciting one.
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Frayed Knot May 24 2011 12:25 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Yeah, that was the whole idea. Rather than paying Bonilla a lump sum up front to make him go away after the 1999 season (his contract ran through 2000) they'd invest a somewhat smaller lump sum and agree to pay him off for a number of years in the future (starting right about now). It's good for the player as he'll need the money more when he's no longer playing and can't earn as much, and the smaller outlay was good for the club's cash flow at the time. Predictably, most of the recent news stories that dealt with this arrangement neglected to explain why it existed and instead acted as if Bonilla was just added to the payroll under some just-discovered secret and incredibly stupid agreement from way back when. Now of course if that investment turns out not to pay off as expected ...
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TransMonk May 24 2011 12:33 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I agree with you there. He is a fun guy to watch play. From a business standpoint, it is nearly impossible for me to hope that the Mets, who are going to lose 70 million dollars this season, are going to nearly double Jose's annual salary for a multi-year commintment to a guy who's main attribute (speed) is probably going to be the first thing to decline as he gets older. There is NO WAY they make Reyes' potential extention salary back without increasing team payroll for the term of the contract. Brass has already said that they are decreasing payroll next season. Reyes is not the type of player that can carry a team, no matter how exciting he is to watch. IMO, he will not be worth the amount of money he is going to be paid in his next contract. I love the dude, but the Mets are in no position to take on that type of commitment.
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Ceetar May 24 2011 12:44 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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There are a million reasons why he is in fact worth it. The actual amount they lose this year, and how much they decrease payroll (and they're probably very very related) is still up in the air, but Reyes will be worth it. For instance, just give him Castillo's money and you haven't even really given him a raise to payroll. If the goal is simply to decrease payroll, then fine, decrease it, but no one is coming to the park so you might as well cut it to 40k. release everyone. what's the point? Reyes is part of winning. Also, his legs are far from his biggest asset. I'd put his swing, his power, and his arm/defense all above the occasional 2B->3B or a bunch of stolen bases.
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TransMonk May 24 2011 12:59 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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OK, now you've lost me.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... n&hpt=Sbin
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Ceetar May 24 2011 01:05 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Wilpon basically hedges his bets there and says it's up to Alderson. I don't take him throwing numbers like 100million out there any more seriously than I take his evaluation of players seriously. which is, not at all. He implies if Alderson says $125 they'll do it.
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metirish May 24 2011 01:09 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Well if Rob Castellano says it's so then that's it I guess.
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Ceetar May 24 2011 01:15 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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It's not perfect, but his arguments do make sense. The simplest one is of course: Reyes is not Luis Castillo.
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TransMonk May 24 2011 01:16 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Ceetar...if you were on Family Feud, and Richard Dawson/Louie Anderson/Al from Tool Time came to you and said, "OK Ceetar, we surveyed 100 people, top five answers are on the board, name an asset of Jose Reyes."
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Edgy DC May 24 2011 01:18 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Doubles and triples count as power.
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Ceetar May 24 2011 01:28 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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popular opinion is hardly proof. often quite the opposite. speed is definitely one of his assets, but it's a complimentary one. As Edgy said, 2b/3b count as power. Have we seen a ton of doubles taht would've been singles if he were a couple of steps slower? Not many that I can recall. He's 6th in XBH.
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TransMonk May 24 2011 01:37 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Popular opinion corresponds to ticket sales which corresponds to revenue for ballclub...which is how this whole back and forth got started.
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Ceetar May 24 2011 01:58 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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well yes, but the #1 reason ticket sales go up is winning, and likely Reyes provides that more so than whatever you'd be able to spend that ~$18 million on + Tejada/SS replacement. Even in 2017 although that's obviously a completely random question as the top SS in the game in 2017 may not even have been drafted yet. Still, It seems to be that if the Mets are trying to win, theyneed Reyes. if they're merely trying to be entertaining and competitive with a reasonable budget, well..
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Vic Sage May 24 2011 02:07 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up. So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally. Well done, sir. [golf clap]
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batmagadanleadoff May 24 2011 03:03 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I heartily endorse this post. Of course Wright was a superstar from 06-08. He was the first player you'd want to build your team around, and the deserving NL MVP of 2007, according to many, myself included, and most other posters here. How can that not add up to superstar? How can somebody be the MVP and not be a superstar? Nice fucking stadium, Jeff.
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Ashie62 May 24 2011 05:53 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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That^
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Centerfield May 24 2011 07:53 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I just finished the SI article. There is no doubt in my mind that this asshole has no intention of re-signing Reyes.
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Rockin' Doc May 24 2011 07:59 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Bravo! I salute you sir.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 24 2011 08:04 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I've thought for a while that Chapter 11 would be a good and maybe even a likely way for this to end, but I don't see those words getting thrown around much, presumably because the Pons could just sell their way out before it came to that.
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Edgy DC May 24 2011 08:27 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Yeah, that's killer. He's been broken. He's lost his dough, he's lost his faith, he's losing his team. He likes being the owner but doesn't like them.
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Met Hunter May 24 2011 08:49 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
This is exactly how I felt when I first read the New Yorker piece. Wilpon seemed like a man looking over his shoulder and his candidness in front of a reporter really surprised me. My first thought was shit he's not pursuing Reyes. It seemed like he tipped his hand in any possible negotiations. Sad days ahead for true Met fans. I've been looking for a light for a long time that may never come. I've really come to loathe everything about the Mets except the name.
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Edgy DC May 24 2011 09:06 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
He loves Ike and Beato. They're good players but not the ones putting him in a position of overextending himself.
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batmagadanleadoff May 24 2011 09:46 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Jim Bowden, former Reds GM under Marge Schott, on the Fred Wilpon New Yorker fallout (and LWFS -- What's Fred's score these days on the Schottsie scale?):
http://espn.go.com/blog/the-gms-office/ ... -fire-sale
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duan May 25 2011 04:29 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Is SNY bleeding cash? Until someone unwinds the contracts and assesses where they stand in relation to their value proposition I will not believe that the mets are par se losing money.
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soupcan May 25 2011 08:17 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I've been rooting for Picard from the beginning. Welcome to the Dark Side Luke.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 25 2011 08:20 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Go @Team_Picard
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Edgy DC May 25 2011 08:33 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Trust the process. Take it one pubic relations nightmare at a time.
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themetfairy May 25 2011 08:35 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Telling someone not to overreact almost assures that there will be overreaction.
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Ceetar May 25 2011 08:39 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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doh, my post today was about overreacting. I swear I hadn't read this yet! Freddy basically said it'd be up to Alderson, which is what we knew anyway, which is why what he says doesn't mean much. Won't stop everyone from overreacting to it despite Alderson already being pretty clear about the budget for next year.
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TransMonk May 25 2011 08:40 AM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Wow.
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Benjamin Grimm May 25 2011 12:42 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I don't see where Sandy says that the $100 million figure is untrue (which is what I was hoping to see) just that we shouldn't overreact to it.
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Ceetar May 25 2011 12:47 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/p ... d-injuries
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Edgy DC May 25 2011 12:47 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I don't think it's true or false. It's just unknown.
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metirish May 25 2011 12:50 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Are you saying that next years payroll "is up to Alderson"?, like if he goes out and signs a bunch of players and the figure is then $150 million that it's OK? Maybe I am not understanding you Ceetar, which is why I am asking.
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Ceetar May 25 2011 01:03 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I'm sure there's a limit, a budget, an idea. But Alderson has made that clear that A. the payroll will likely be less than this year and B. He'd like to be somewhat below his 'cap' so that he has flexibility. So yeah, the payroll is going down and barring a playoff run that results in an extra 30million in expected revenue.. that's where it's at, but he's in the past shot down the 90-100 million range and seems to do so again here. He's specifically stated that Reyes would fit if they needed him to. (With the caveat that he didn't know if they could fit much else) All Fred was saying is that you CAN be competitive with less, and if Sandy's budget for next year is 100, he's not going to force him to spend more or less.
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metirish May 25 2011 01:07 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
[youtube:1dncavp0]GiPe1OiKQuk[/youtube:1dncavp0]
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batmagadanleadoff May 25 2011 01:11 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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You're preaching to the choir, here. The even bigger insult will occur if the Mets intend to continue to charge fans close to $200 for an infield field level ticket to watch a mid-market payroll team.
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soupcan May 25 2011 01:12 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I don't know how many of you have read the S.I. article yet, but it sez that all the money coming off the books will not be going back into salary. It is to be reinvested in the club.
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batmagadanleadoff May 25 2011 01:18 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Alderson said this and Freddie said that. Between the fact that nobody in the Mets FO is ever bound by anything they tell you (Whaddya gonna do if they lied to you? Sue them? Root for the Phillies?) , the vast wiggle room that they enjoy from their purposely vague comments, and the changing-every-minute nature of the Madoff affair, what Alderson or Wilpon tell you today is absolutely meaningless. To hang your hat on their every word, parsing their comments to the ridiculous nth degree for some guidance that you think you're gonna discern is a waste of your time. You might as well have a conversation with your pet cat.
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Ceetar May 25 2011 01:31 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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yes, and that includes "maybe it'll be 100million." I don't know when budget season is for MLB teams, when they put out numbers for 2012. (Presumably this is something they want to include in the pitch to the partial buyers) If the Mets get/stay healthy and win 85 games, i.e. if they remain competitive throughout, that estimated 70million loss could easily become 50. Of course, if they stay hurt, trade Reyes and Beltran, 70 can become 80. More importantly, if the Mets remain competitive, people will buy in to the growth process, buy tickets for next year, and increase the base expected revenue for 2012, which allows the Mets to raise payroll (this is not inconsistant with stuff we've heard from Alderson). so the bottom line is, the best way for the Mets to be good next year is to be good this year. Just win. Factor this in to the idea that if they trade Reyes, especially for non-ML talent that no one will even see, the despair and disappointment and the losing in August and September is going to sour potential buyers of season tickets and renewals. Plenty of people are throwing out numbers and basically pulling them out of thin air. While the quotes of Alderson, and less so Wilpon, are basically meaningless, it's the only thing we have to go on because trying to guess based on what goes on with the trade deadline. Obviously if they sign players like Alderson has claimed they'll be able to do if they need/want to, that suggests one thing, and if the sell Beltran and Reyes and Frankie and Misch and the water cooler in the visitors dugout, it says another. We don't know anything. We never know anything. The Phillies looked tapped out and signed Cliff Lee. The Yankees last year didn't want to resign Matsui or Damon despite coming off a world series and seemed to infer they did have a budget. I just refuse to be all doom and gloom and guess that they're going into a 3-year rebuilding process of suck when there are no more signs out of Flushing that they will than won't.
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batmagadanleadoff May 25 2011 01:39 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Well then look on the bright side. Josh Thole could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Miguel Tejada -- the next Ernie Banks. The Giants might give us Tim Lincecum for Jose Reyes. If Dillon Gee learns to pitch like Greg Maddux and Johan Santana has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.
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metirish May 25 2011 01:44 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Do all those missing fans come back with a competitive 85 win team?, I don't think so , playoffs is what's needed to get the excitement and fans back IMO.
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Ceetar May 25 2011 01:50 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I dunno. I think that's very much up in the air, and I'm glad i'm not the one predicting it and budgeting for it. Johan coming back plays in too. I know regardless of standings if he returns I'm going to make a point to get to a game he pitches. I do think 85ish wins gets some fans. If they're still "in the race" so to speak in August going into September, even if it's mostly a gutshot chance, fans will come. It might just be the difference between fans coming that were already buying tickets and picking up some deals on stub hub. But that's parking an concessions revenue. The park looks fuller, it seems better to prospective advertisers. And more importantly, I think an above .500 season keeps the status quo at least for season tickets. Keeps more people from jumping ship. Just that mental step forward from last year as "progress" leaves a better feeling with the team, that they're getting better.
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metirish May 25 2011 01:55 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I don't think Santana has the personality to draw fans in numbers to a game.
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soupcan May 25 2011 02:01 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Uncanny. My mindset from 8th - 10th grade: John Stearns could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Frank Taveras -- the next Ernie Banks. The Dodgers might give us Fernando Valenzuela for Hubie Brooks. If Tim Leary learns to pitch like Tom Seaver and Randy Jones/Mickey Lolich has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.
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batmagadanleadoff May 25 2011 02:03 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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If the Mets are irrelevant by the time he returns, I don't think Santana will improve Mets attendance meaningfully, if at all. And if the Mets are out of it and Santana struggles with a diminished repertoire, fugghedaboutit.
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batmagadanleadoff May 25 2011 02:05 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Where's Doug Flynn? Wasn't he your favorite? You couldn't have thought that Flynn was gonna be the next Joe Morgan because then the Reds would've kept him. And Ryne Sandberg was still a teenager.
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metsmarathon May 25 2011 02:08 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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not for most of the summer, and probably not too much for the next year either unless there was something big and productive happening over the off season.
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soupcan May 25 2011 02:14 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Correct! However as wide-eyed and Ceetar-ish as I was, I knew Flynn would never be much of a hitter. Loved him for that sweet, sweet golden glove and I would never have considered trading him. The one solace I took from those lean years was that the Mets would either lead the league or be near the top in DPs turned. It was the ONE thing they did well and how could that continue without Flynn?! Of course leading the league in DPs also meant that your team had to allow quite a lot of runners to reach base, which was...um, not really a good stat.
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batmagadanleadoff May 25 2011 02:16 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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I'm gonna sign off the CPF for now. I'm probably the last Mets fan you'd wanna have an extended conversation with about Doug Flynn.
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Ceetar May 25 2011 02:18 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
I don't know why we're making this team out to be a 65 win team again? Are we really that reactionary?
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soupcan May 25 2011 02:19 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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It's cool, I'm long over it.
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soupcan May 25 2011 02:24 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Ceet - I appreciate the optimism but like I said, you sound like I did in the 70's man. Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'. Thole? Really? And let's add a Bay - George Foster analogy to my previous post (which is really an insult to Foster).
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Ceetar May 25 2011 02:28 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Why not? Why can't Thole hit like he did previous to this year? or play defense like it? Why is Jason Bay's 140 or whatever games it's been more telling than his previous 1000? Players don't turn red when they're done.
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dgwphotography May 25 2011 02:29 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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This just gave me the cold sweats - I was immediately transported back to those dark days.... I'm going to lay down now...
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G-Fafif May 25 2011 02:34 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
Wait, John Stearns didn't develop into another Johnny Bench?
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Edgy DC May 25 2011 02:37 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
It's not like there isn't still time.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 25 2011 02:47 PM Re: After "Madoff's Curveball" |
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Well, eventually-- and especially at the cellular level-- their performance levels should be about equal. (If they aren't already.)
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