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After "Madoff's Curveball"

batmagadanleadoff
May 23 2011 07:17 PM


Wilpon Passes Burgers and the Buck
By HARVEY ARATON
Published: May 23, 2011

We can easily envision Fred Wilpon in the lavish confines of his Citi Field box, munching on his Shake Shack burger and complaining to Jeffrey Toobin of The New Yorker about the performance of his marquee players in relation to their reputations and remuneration.

Fred Wilpon complained about three of the Mets' marquee players in a New Yorker article.

From one suffering Mets fan to another (Toobin discloses his rooting interest in a newly published article), Wilpon’s comments come across like barfly banter during an extended interview while watching his slumping Mets lose to the Houston Astros in April.

The comments were obviously not conveyed in the madcap manner of a George Steinbrenner, whose player critiques — “Dave Winfield is Mr. May!” — were often delivered as angry, outrageous smears.

Mets fans would agree with Wilpon that Jose Reyes is not worth “Carl Crawford money;” that David Wright is “a really good kid,” but “not a superstar;” and that Carlos Beltran is “65 to 70 percent of what he was.”

But although Wilpon is no mean-spirited autocrat, he reveals himself to be a why-me whiner and a first-rate revisionist. He may have fingered himself as the dummy who gave Beltran $119 million in 2004 based on one productive postseason, but that is about all the accountability he serves Toobin along with the burgers.

Wilpon gets even with Beltran, though. In his largely Teflon retrospective of the team’s “snakebitten” recent history, it was the called strike taken by Beltran to end the 2006 National League Championship Series that set off or symbolized all that has since gone wrong.

Forget how Beltran and the others of a now-shamed era took just two seasons to turn what had been Wilpon’s 71-victory embarrassment of a team into a 97-victory division champion that fought into the ninth inning of Game 7 of the N.L.C.S. with just one experienced and reliable starting pitcher.

Forget how Beltran, Reyes and Wright spearheaded the three highest season’s attendance records in Mets history — 3.37 million in 2006, 3.85 million in 2007 and 4.04 million in 2008, the last go-round at Shea Stadium.

Forget how the Mets’ profitable cable television network, SNY, started in such timely fashion on the backs of the aforementioned players and under the leadership of the since-departed and widely discredited Omar Minaya and Willie Randolph.

As bitterly as those seasons ended, how much were they worth to a franchise whose desperate financial straits have far more to do with its owners than its players? And although Wilpon’s comments in The New Yorker article are supplementary to a profile of him and an examination of the continuing Bernard L. Madoff imbroglio, they seem to follow in the pattern of a one-size-fits-all defense:

When life and profits are good, everyone is Fred Wilpon’s friend, part of a big, happy family. When caught in a downpour of misfortune, he seems to feel victimized and betrayed by everyone who failed to remind him to carry an umbrella.

How a $1 billion suit brought against Wilpon and his partner, Saul Katz, plays out is up to them and Irving H. Picard, the trustee who is seeking the money on behalf of Madoff victims. But the baseball record should be set straight in the wake of Wilpon’s self-serving New Yorker comments, however uncharacteristic.

Many flawed performers have contributed to the Mets’ recent miseries, including Beltran, Reyes and Wright. But to publicly diminish them (while perhaps damaging their trade value) without acknowledging ownership’s role in the organizational dysfunction that engulfed the Mets after the 2006 postseason borders on deceit.

Even after Beltran succumbed without a full swing of the bat in the N.L.C.S., the Mets were doing fine until a subversive element in the franchise core tore at the fabric of what Randolph and Minaya had so quickly quilted. Was it the lone destabilizing influence of Tony Bernazard, a former Minaya crony who ultimately was exposed and fired? Or was it as many suspected — an inside job by Jeff Wilpon, who overreacted to the N.L.C.S. failure and set out to fix what wasn’t broken by virtue of the crown of entitlement placed upon his head by Daddy?

It all feels like ancient history now, but that doesn’t mean the Mets weren’t run on so many levels like a college fraternity house — right down to the longtime clubhouse manager, Charlie Samuels, whose shadow business of allegedly stolen memorabilia landed him in the arms of the law.

Wilpon has been steadfast in his legal entanglements, guaranteeing vindication of the charges made by Picard that he and Katz were willfully ignorant of the Madoff crimes and profited at the expense of others. It is a complicated case, and maybe Wilpon, who had more than $500 million invested with Madoff when the scheme was exposed, has a right to feel like a victim, no matter what the outcome is.

But the collapse of the Mets is more on his house than it is on Carlos Beltran, Jose Reyes or even Oliver Perez. Yes, Wilpon’s comments were made in the context of a game, in the mind-set of a fan. But he is no ordinary fan. He is the owner. He, above all, is accountable.

If he wants to find fault, look first in the mirror.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/sport ... ubles.html

Ashie62
May 23 2011 07:56 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Mets fans would agree with Wilpon that Jose Reyes is not worth “Carl Crawford money;” that David Wright is “a really good kid,” but “not a superstar;” and that Carlos Beltran is “65 to 70 percent of what he was.”


Bullshit..

G-Fafif
May 23 2011 10:38 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

From Waldstein: Big Pelf stops fiddling with his cap and licking his fingers long enough to make with the subtle Midwestern humor (I recognize Kansan when I hear it).

“I think guys will be upset,” pitcher Mike Pelfrey said. “But we’re all a family: ownership, coaches and players. Sometimes people say things they regret. It’s a mistake and you learn from it. Maybe next spring when we have our media workshop for the players, Fred can come and sit in on it.

Edgy DC
May 23 2011 10:40 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ashie62 wrote:
Mets fans would agree with Wilpon that Jose Reyes is not worth “Carl Crawford money;” that David Wright is “a really good kid,” but “not a superstar;” and that Carlos Beltran is “65 to 70 percent of what he was.”


Bullshit..

Come on. You've backed the trash truck up and dumped on all three of those guys. With passion and vigor you have.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 23 2011 10:41 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Here's the obligatory cheapass video:

[youtube:7xwqajsw]NY0BAMgrucE[/youtube:7xwqajsw]

G-Fafif
May 23 2011 10:45 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Here's the obligatory cheapass video:

[youtube]NY0BAMgrucE[/youtube]


Worth the entire fusillade of idiocy just for that.

I don't suppose Jeffy has ever taken a good picture.

soupcan
May 24 2011 07:47 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ashie62 wrote:
Mets fans would agree with Wilpon that Jose Reyes is not worth “Carl Crawford money;” that David Wright is “a really good kid,” but “not a superstar;” and that Carlos Beltran is “65 to 70 percent of what he was.”


Bullshit..


Jose isn't worth that kind of deal. Not saying he won't get it, but he isn't worth $20 million per for 7 years.

Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway.

The Carlos thing I'd mildly disagree with but I understand why he said it and why he feels it.

TransMonk
May 24 2011 08:02 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I feel the same way as Soupy.

seawolf17
May 24 2011 08:17 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

soupcan wrote:
Jose isn't worth that kind of deal. Not saying he won't get it, but he isn't worth $20 million per for 7 years.

Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway.

The Carlos thing I'd mildly disagree with but I understand why he said it and why he feels it.

LALALALALALALA I AM NOT LISTENING LALALALALALALA

themetfairy
May 24 2011 08:35 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Assuming arguendo that everything that Fred said was right, I nonetheless think that it shows poor judgment for a team's owner to say those kind of things in front of a reporter.

Centerfield
May 24 2011 08:51 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Agreed. The issue is not whether these are true, or whether any one of us agree with them. It's the fact that it's idiotic for an owner to be saying such things to a reporter. I say it goes beyond poor judgment...and into "What a fucking idiot" territory.

You know you're in bad territory when the justifications for your behavior start with "What's the big deal? Steinbrenner used to...."

batmagadanleadoff
May 24 2011 08:58 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I'll bet that in the end, nothing will come of Fred's disses. I understand the inevitable firestorm of reporting that Fred's comments generated, but in the end, whatever destiny awaits Beltran, Reyes and Wright as far as re-signing with the Mets or going elsewhere, will happen anyway -- unaffected by yesterday's comments. That's what I believe. If Alfred Hitchcock were still alive and agreed with me, he'd say that Fred's comments are one big MacGuffin.

OE: But I can't guarantee that I won't change my mind 20 minutes from now.

dgwphotography
May 24 2011 08:59 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Centerfield wrote:
Agreed. The issue is not whether these are true, or whether any one of us agree with them. It's the fact that it's idiotic for an owner to be saying such things to a reporter. I say it goes beyond poor judgment...and into "What a fucking idiot" territory.

You know you're in bad territory when the justifications for your behavior start with "What's the big deal? Steinbrenner used to...."


My CEO just used those exact words in reference to Fred.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 24 2011 09:11 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
I'll bet that in the end, nothing will come of Fred's disses. I understand the inevitable firestorm of reporting that Fred's comments generated, but in the end, whatever destiny awaits Beltran, Reyes and Wright as far as re-signing with the Mets or going elsewhere, will happen anyway -- unaffected by yesterday's comments. That's what I believe. If Alfred Hitchcock were still alive and agreed with me, he'd say that Fred's comments are one big MacGuffin.

OE: But I can't guarantee that I won't change my mind 20 minutes from now.


I agree with that too, but what matters, sort of, is the perception that what's to come will be colored by these remarks. I don't know if that can ever be undone. As Edgy said it's an image business he's in.

I also agree with the columnists who pointed out what selfishness and lack of accountability the whole thing illustrates, as if clearing his name in the Madoff thing justifies whatever damage might come to anyone else.

metirish
May 24 2011 09:16 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I hate to be a prick but can someone relieve Jay Horowitz of his job. I have felt for a long time that this organization needs an outside public relations firm and not the bumbling Jay beloved by many but seemingly incapable of doing this job.

batmagadanleadoff
May 24 2011 09:21 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

The shitstorm that has befallen the Mets this week won't end with Fred's New Yorker comments. Sports Illustrated's next issue will include a feature on the Mets in which Wilpon remarks that the Mets are "bleeding money" and are poised to lose another $70M this season.

Report: Mets 'bleeding cash'

New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon said the team is "bleeding cash" and could lose $70 million this season in an interview with Sports Illustrated that was obtained before release by the New York Daily News.

Wilpon also said that he fears he could lose the Mets if the trustee for victims of Bernard Madoff's Ponzi scheme wins a $1 billion lawsuit against the team and the owner's other interests. Wilpon said he is willing to settle based on the $295 million in fictitious profits he earned, but will not settle based on $700 million in principle he and partners invested with Madoff.

Former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo has been mediating talks between Wilpon and the trustee, Irving Picard.

"Gov. Cuomo has not been able to at this stage convince them that the 700 is not going to be obtainable," Wilpon told the magazine.

Wilpon has been trying to sell a stake in the team to raise much needed cash. The magazine reported that if he can raise $200 million, $25 million will pay back an emergency loan to Major League Baseball, $75 million will be used to pay down team debt of $427 million and $100 million will go to operating expenses.

According to the magazine, Madoff investments were supposed to offset debt owed to players. When the Mets wanted to get rid of Bobby Bonilla after the 1999 season, they would have owed him $5.9 million. Instead, they decided to invest that money with Madoff at a return of 10-12 percent. They would pay Bonilla $1.2 million per year for 25 years, payments based on an interest rate of 8 percent per year. So in theory, had Madoff's schemes not tanked, a seemingly horrible financial decision would have in fact created a net profit.

Picard, meanwhile, contends that Wilpon has not provided enough documentation outlining the relationship between the Mets and Madoff, according to the New York Times. The trustee claims that the club had 16 accounts with Madoff and invested tens of millions of dollars in business.

The Wilpon camp counters that it has provided over 700,000 pages of documentation and there is no evidence that the Mets or any other Wilpon entity knew that Madoff was engaged in fraud.


http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/ ... BHeadlines

Ceetar
May 24 2011 09:23 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I'll bet that in the end, nothing will come of Fred's disses. I understand the inevitable firestorm of reporting that Fred's comments generated, but in the end, whatever destiny awaits Beltran, Reyes and Wright as far as re-signing with the Mets or going elsewhere, will happen anyway -- unaffected by yesterday's comments. That's what I believe. If Alfred Hitchcock were still alive and agreed with me, he'd say that Fred's comments are one big MacGuffin.

OE: But I can't guarantee that I won't change my mind 20 minutes from now.


I agree with that too, but what matters, sort of, is the perception that what's to come will be colored by these remarks. I don't know if that can ever be undone. As Edgy said it's an image business he's in.

I also agree with the columnists who pointed out what selfishness and lack of accountability the whole thing illustrates, as if clearing his name in the Madoff thing justifies whatever damage might come to anyone else.


I definitely see some of that. It's sounded like he's been pretty hurt by the stuff written about him re: Madoff. Maybe he's a littled jaded/tired of it.

Anyway, since when do rich guys have any accountability except to other rich guys that cheat them out of millions?

TheOldMole
May 24 2011 09:54 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I'm sorry. If Reyes is worth Crawford money to some other city that's got no love for him, why isn't he worth that much to the Mets?

TransMonk
May 24 2011 09:56 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

TheOldMole wrote:
I'm sorry. If Reyes is worth Crawford money to some other city that's got no love for him, why isn't he worth that much to the Mets?

See the article about the Mets bleeding cash.

Chad Ochoseis
May 24 2011 10:18 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

According to the magazine, Madoff investments were supposed to offset debt owed to players. When the Mets wanted to get rid of Bobby Bonilla after the 1999 season, they would have owed him $5.9 million. Instead, they decided to invest that money with Madoff at a return of 10-12 percent. They would pay Bonilla $1.2 million per year for 25 years, payments based on an interest rate of 8 percent per year. So in theory, had Madoff's schemes not tanked, a seemingly horrible financial decision would have in fact created a net profit.



In what world does investing $5.9 million at 10-12% net you $1.2 million annually?

Frayed Knot
May 24 2011 10:24 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Remember that both the investment and the interest were to compound for a dozen or so years before they even began to tap into it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 24 2011 11:02 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Chad Ochoseis wrote:
According to the magazine, Madoff investments were supposed to offset debt owed to players. When the Mets wanted to get rid of Bobby Bonilla after the 1999 season, they would have owed him $5.9 million. Instead, they decided to invest that money with Madoff at a return of 10-12 percent. They would pay Bonilla $1.2 million per year for 25 years, payments based on an interest rate of 8 percent per year. So in theory, had Madoff's schemes not tanked, a seemingly horrible financial decision would have in fact created a net profit.



In what world does investing $5.9 million at 10-12% net you $1.2 million annually?


By Year 5 or 6, you're over $1M annual return. (Principal keeps growing.)

Chad Ochoseis
May 24 2011 11:09 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Yeah, I wasn't aware of the 12-year waiting period on the contract. With 12 years for the $5.9M to grow, the math works out perfectly.

Ceetar
May 24 2011 11:23 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

TransMonk wrote:
TheOldMole wrote:
I'm sorry. If Reyes is worth Crawford money to some other city that's got no love for him, why isn't he worth that much to the Mets?

See the article about the Mets bleeding cash.


People forget that Reyes isn't just a debit, he's also a source of revenue.

TransMonk
May 24 2011 12:08 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ceetar wrote:
TransMonk wrote:
TheOldMole wrote:
I'm sorry. If Reyes is worth Crawford money to some other city that's got no love for him, why isn't he worth that much to the Mets?

See the article about the Mets bleeding cash.


People forget that Reyes isn't just a debit, he's also a source of revenue.

In terms of what? Ticket sales? He's never going to be much better than he is RIGHT NOW, and the tickets aren't exactly flying out the door.

Ceetar
May 24 2011 12:15 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

TransMonk wrote:
TransMonk wrote:
TheOldMole wrote:
I'm sorry. If Reyes is worth Crawford money to some other city that's got no love for him, why isn't he worth that much to the Mets?

See the article about the Mets bleeding cash.


People forget that Reyes isn't just a debit, he's also a source of revenue.

In terms of what? Ticket sales? He's never going to be much better than he is RIGHT NOW, and the tickets aren't exactly flying out the door.


In terms of winning. in terms of marketing a homegrown star. In terms of all the people that want to see him play, that will go to _less_ games if they trade him. A team without Reyes is frankly a less exciting one.

Frayed Knot
May 24 2011 12:25 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Chad Ochoseis wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't aware of the 12-year waiting period on the contract. With 12 years for the $5.9M to grow, the math works out perfectly.


Yeah, that was the whole idea. Rather than paying Bonilla a lump sum up front to make him go away after the 1999 season (his contract ran through 2000) they'd invest a somewhat smaller lump sum and agree to pay him off for a number of years in the future (starting right about now). It's good for the player as he'll need the money more when he's no longer playing and can't earn as much, and the smaller outlay was good for the club's cash flow at the time. Predictably, most of the recent news stories that dealt with this arrangement neglected to explain why it existed and instead acted as if Bonilla was just added to the payroll under some just-discovered secret and incredibly stupid agreement from way back when.

Now of course if that investment turns out not to pay off as expected ...

TransMonk
May 24 2011 12:33 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ceetar wrote:
A team without Reyes is frankly a less exciting one.

I agree with you there. He is a fun guy to watch play.

From a business standpoint, it is nearly impossible for me to hope that the Mets, who are going to lose 70 million dollars this season, are going to nearly double Jose's annual salary for a multi-year commintment to a guy who's main attribute (speed) is probably going to be the first thing to decline as he gets older.

There is NO WAY they make Reyes' potential extention salary back without increasing team payroll for the term of the contract. Brass has already said that they are decreasing payroll next season. Reyes is not the type of player that can carry a team, no matter how exciting he is to watch. IMO, he will not be worth the amount of money he is going to be paid in his next contract. I love the dude, but the Mets are in no position to take on that type of commitment.

Ceetar
May 24 2011 12:44 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

TransMonk wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
A team without Reyes is frankly a less exciting one.

I agree with you there. He is a fun guy to watch play.

From a business standpoint, it is nearly impossible for me to hope that the Mets, who are going to lose 70 million dollars this season, are going to nearly double Jose's annual salary for a multi-year commintment to a guy who's main attribute (speed) is probably going to be the first thing to decline as he gets older.

There is NO WAY they make Reyes' potential extention salary back without increasing team payroll for the term of the contract. Brass has already said that they are decreasing payroll next season. Reyes is not the type of player that can carry a team, no matter how exciting he is to watch. IMO, he will not be worth the amount of money he is going to be paid in his next contract. I love the dude, but the Mets are in no position to take on that type of commitment.


There are a million reasons why he is in fact worth it. The actual amount they lose this year, and how much they decrease payroll (and they're probably very very related) is still up in the air, but Reyes will be worth it. For instance, just give him Castillo's money and you haven't even really given him a raise to payroll. If the goal is simply to decrease payroll, then fine, decrease it, but no one is coming to the park so you might as well cut it to 40k. release everyone. what's the point? Reyes is part of winning.

Also, his legs are far from his biggest asset. I'd put his swing, his power, and his arm/defense all above the occasional 2B->3B or a bunch of stolen bases.

TransMonk
May 24 2011 12:59 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

OK, now you've lost me.

He's the leadoff hitter. Speed is his main attribute. He creates excitement by hitting balls to the gap and turning on the jets, or bunting for base hits, or by dancing off of first base in order to distract pitchers. If he had a great swing or anything more than decent power, he'd be batting third. I would imagine the number of fans potentially heading to Citi hoping to see Jose specifically hit a home run or turn a double play is relatively small compared to those hoping to see him steal a base or hit a triple...c'mon.

As for what is up in the air regarding payroll...

The Mets are spending about $142 million this year on payroll, including about $22 million to players who no longer play for them. Around $64 million is due to come off that payroll. How much the Madoff scandal and the team's declining attendance have impacted the club will become apparent this offseason with the answer to this question: Will the Mets re-invest that $64 million into payroll or will they tighten their belts?

Wilpon provided that answer to SI when he confirmed the likely scenario is that the Mets will not re-invest most of the money coming off the payroll.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... n&hpt=Sbin

Ceetar
May 24 2011 01:05 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Wilpon basically hedges his bets there and says it's up to Alderson. I don't take him throwing numbers like 100million out there any more seriously than I take his evaluation of players seriously. which is, not at all. He implies if Alderson says $125 they'll do it.

anyway, Reyes. Here's a post that address the speed thing: [url]http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/5/20/2132075/the-three-fallacies-of-jose-reyes

metirish
May 24 2011 01:09 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Well if Rob Castellano says it's so then that's it I guess.

Ceetar
May 24 2011 01:15 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

metirish wrote:
Well if Rob Castellano says it's so then that's it I guess.


It's not perfect, but his arguments do make sense.

The simplest one is of course: Reyes is not Luis Castillo.

TransMonk
May 24 2011 01:16 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ceetar...if you were on Family Feud, and Richard Dawson/Louie Anderson/Al from Tool Time came to you and said, "OK Ceetar, we surveyed 100 people, top five answers are on the board, name an asset of Jose Reyes."

What would your answer be?

Edgy DC
May 24 2011 01:18 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Doubles and triples count as power.

I'm reluctant to get too far ahead and declare there's "no way" something is going to happen. I don't even know who is going to be owning the team in a month.

Ceetar
May 24 2011 01:28 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

TransMonk wrote:
Ceetar...if you were on Family Feud, and Richard Dawson/Louie Anderson/Al from Tool Time came to you and said, "OK Ceetar, we surveyed 100 people, top five answers are on the board, name an asset of Jose Reyes."

What would your answer be?


popular opinion is hardly proof. often quite the opposite. speed is definitely one of his assets, but it's a complimentary one.

As Edgy said, 2b/3b count as power. Have we seen a ton of doubles taht would've been singles if he were a couple of steps slower? Not many that I can recall. He's 6th in XBH.

TransMonk
May 24 2011 01:37 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Popular opinion corresponds to ticket sales which corresponds to revenue for ballclub...which is how this whole back and forth got started.

I agree that Reyes has multiple skills. But, I will deny that his speed is only* complimentary to any of his other skills. Reyes is not legging out more XBH because he is a power hitter who was blessed with speed.

*- on edit

Ceetar
May 24 2011 01:58 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

TransMonk wrote:
Popular opinion corresponds to ticket sales which corresponds to revenue for ballclub...which is how this whole back and forth got started.

I agree that Reyes has multiple skills. But, I will deny that his speed is only* complimentary to any of his other skills. Reyes is not legging out more XBH because he is a power hitter who was blessed with speed.

*- on edit


well yes, but the #1 reason ticket sales go up is winning, and likely Reyes provides that more so than whatever you'd be able to spend that ~$18 million on + Tejada/SS replacement. Even in 2017 although that's obviously a completely random question as the top SS in the game in 2017 may not even have been drafted yet.

Still, It seems to be that if the Mets are trying to win, theyneed Reyes. if they're merely trying to be entertaining and competitive with a reasonable budget, well..

Vic Sage
May 24 2011 02:07 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway.


If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up.

So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally.
Well done, sir. [golf clap]

batmagadanleadoff
May 24 2011 03:03 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Vic Sage wrote:
Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway.


If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up.

So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally.
Well done, sir. [golf clap]



I heartily endorse this post. Of course Wright was a superstar from 06-08. He was the first player you'd want to build your team around, and the deserving NL MVP of 2007, according to many, myself included, and most other posters here. How can that not add up to superstar? How can somebody be the MVP and not be a superstar?

Nice fucking stadium, Jeff.

Ashie62
May 24 2011 05:53 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Vic Sage wrote:
Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway.


If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up.

So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally.
Well done, sir. [golf clap]



I heartily endorse this post. Of course Wright was a superstar from 06-08. He was the first player you'd want to build your team around, and the deserving NL MVP of 2007, according to many, myself included, and most other posters here. How can that not add up to superstar? How can somebody be the MVP and not be a superstar?

Nice fucking stadium, Jeff.


That^

Centerfield
May 24 2011 07:53 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I just finished the SI article. There is no doubt in my mind that this asshole has no intention of re-signing Reyes.

I'm embarrassed to be a fan of this organization. I have never before endorsed a sale of this team, but I will be actively rooting for that from now on.

I'm now a fan of Picard. Let's start a Picard suit thread. Pinstripes? Greys? I hear a lot of people aren't fans of the black suits.

Rockin' Doc
May 24 2011 07:59 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Vic Sage wrote:
If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up.

So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally.
Well done, sir. [golf clap]


Bravo! I salute you sir.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 24 2011 08:04 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I've thought for a while that Chapter 11 would be a good and maybe even a likely way for this to end, but I don't see those words getting thrown around much, presumably because the Pons could just sell their way out before it came to that.

Fred's really a pathetic guy in so many ways. He can't even sell the Mets to Mets fans.

Edgy DC
May 24 2011 08:27 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Yeah, that's killer. He's been broken. He's lost his dough, he's lost his faith, he's losing his team. He likes being the owner but doesn't like them.

He's besieged by creditors and has come to see his high-profile players as just a few more collectors putting the squeeze on him.

Met Hunter
May 24 2011 08:49 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

This is exactly how I felt when I first read the New Yorker piece. Wilpon seemed like a man looking over his shoulder and his candidness in front of a reporter really surprised me. My first thought was shit he's not pursuing Reyes. It seemed like he tipped his hand in any possible negotiations. Sad days ahead for true Met fans. I've been looking for a light for a long time that may never come. I've really come to loathe everything about the Mets except the name.

Edgy DC
May 24 2011 09:06 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

He loves Ike and Beato. They're good players but not the ones putting him in a position of overextending himself.

On the run like Dykstra, a man gets a little crazy. Any man would, I guess. Of course, a crazy man like Dykstra will go absolute apeshit bonkers.

It would be fascinating, if I didn't have something at stake myself.

batmagadanleadoff
May 24 2011 09:46 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Jim Bowden, former Reds GM under Marge Schott, on the Fred Wilpon New Yorker fallout (and LWFS -- What's Fred's score these days on the Schottsie scale?):

Wilpon Preparing for Mets' Fire Sale
by Jim Bowden


Fred Wilpon is well respected as a gentleman and professional, so most were surprised when the New York Mets' owner's comments were released Monday morning in The New Yorker magazine, ripping star players Jose Reyes, David Wright and Carlos Beltran. In an e-mail to the media, Wright excused Wilpon: “Fred is a good man and is obviously going through some difficult times.” Wright was referring to Wilpon's professional, financial and legal issues, including a countersuit against a trustee to recover funds from the Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme and the Mets needing a loan from Major League Baseball to meet obligations.

As a former GM, the first reaction is damage control. I had this happen to me on multiple occasions in my career, especially during the Marge Schott era of the mid-'90s. Quick communication with the players helped put the issue to bed, and most players considered the source. However, this case is different. This isn’t the Bronx or the Yankees. It’s not George Steinbrenner or Marge Schott. It’s Fred Wilpon, and it wasn't his normal behavior. But while Wright came to Wilpon's defense, I’m not buying it.

Here's what Wilpon was saying through his New Yorker interview: If the major league payroll is no longer affordable and needs to be reduced, then trades must be made. Instead of shocking the fans in July, prepare them now.

And here's what Wilson said about his star players:

On Reyes: “He thinks he’s going to get Carl Crawford money. He’s had everything wrong with him. He won’t get it.”

My response: Jayson Werth got it. Adrian Beltre got it. Jose Reyes will be getting his share, too. Reyes is 27 years old, his injuries are in the rearview mirror, and he is one of the top shortstops in baseball with a chance to develop into a premier lead-off hitter.


On Wright: “He is a really good kid and a very good player, but not a superstar.”

My opinion: David is a really good kid, a very good player and is developing into a superstar. The huge outfield dimensions at Citi Field have changed his approach and swing. He may not be Albert Pujols, but put him in Great American Ball Park or Citizens Bank Park and he’ll be a 40-homer, 120-RBI superstar in time. He ranks among the top five third basemen in baseball.

On Beltran: “Carlos is 65–70 percent of the player that he was when he signed the seven-year, $119 million contract in 2005.”

My opinion: Mr. Wilpon, he’s been hurt. He’s at 75-80, not 65-70 percent, but only because of injuries, not because of a loss of skills, heart, talent or ability. Eat salary, try to trade him and get younger. We all get it. However, you have to recognize that his decline has mostly to do with health reasons.

Whether Wilpon made these comments to deflect his own personal problems, or whether he made them to prepare the fan base for the upcoming fire sale, it really doesn’t matter. The damage has been done. The public relations blunders has been made. Now Mr. Wilpon, stop talking, go upstairs and let team president Sandy Alderson and manager Terry Collins do the rest of the talking. Let them handle the damage control, and let them rebuild the relationships with the players.

Then let the trade talks begin, and let’s all look forward to the July wheeling and dealing as the Mets reduce payroll and get younger.

Thanks for reading, as always. I appreciate your comments and feedback. You can follow me on Twitter: @JimBowdenESPNxm.


http://espn.go.com/blog/the-gms-office/ ... -fire-sale

duan
May 25 2011 04:29 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

The shitstorm that has befallen the Mets this week won't end with Fred's New Yorker comments. Sports Illustrated's next issue will include a feature on the Mets in which Wilpon remarks that the Mets are "bleeding money" and are poised to lose another $70M this season.

Report: Mets 'bleeding cash'

New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon said the team is "bleeding cash" and could lose $70 million this season in an interview with Sports Illustrated that was obtained before release by the New York Daily News.

Wilpon also said that he fears he could lose the Mets if the trustee for victims of Bernard Madoff's Ponzi scheme wins a $1 billion lawsuit against the team and the owner's other interests. Wilpon said he is willing to settle based on the $295 million in fictitious profits he earned, but will not settle based on $700 million in principle he and partners invested with Madoff.


Is SNY bleeding cash? Until someone unwinds the contracts and assesses where they stand in relation to their value proposition I will not believe that the mets are par se losing money.

soupcan
May 25 2011 08:17 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Centerfield wrote:
I just finished the SI article. There is no doubt in my mind that this asshole has no intention of re-signing Reyes.

I'm embarrassed to be a fan of this organization. I have never before endorsed a sale of this team, but I will be actively rooting for that from now on.

I'm now a fan of Picard. Let's start a Picard suit thread. Pinstripes? Greys? I hear a lot of people aren't fans of the black suits.



I've been rooting for Picard from the beginning. Welcome to the Dark Side Luke.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 25 2011 08:20 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Go @Team_Picard

Edgy DC
May 25 2011 08:33 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Trust the process. Take it one pubic relations nightmare at a time.

Mets' GM Sandy Alderson: Don't overreact to reports of 30% payroll cut
12:06 AM
By Mike Dodd, USA TODAY


UPDATE 12:06 AM ET: New York Mets' general manager Sandy Alderson met with reporters after the team's ugly 11-1 loss to the Cubs in Chicago and cautioned against overreacting to owner Fred Wilpon's suggestion in a Sports Illustrated article that the team's payroll could be cut 30% to about $100 million next year.

"Are we talking about The New Yorker article?" Alderson asked, referring to the story containing Wilpon's harsh criticism of three key Mets players. "Look, I haven't read Sports Illustrated. I haven't read Mechanics Illustrated, Men's Health. I don't know what stories may be out there. So until I've read those stories, I can't comment. …

"I wouldn't overreact to what might be contained in that article. Let's focus on getting past The New Yorker article."

As for that first story, in which David Wright, Carlos Beltran and Jose Reyes were criticized by the owner, Alderson said, "Everyone was surprised by the comments. But there's nobody who is more passionate about the Mets, has more empathy for the players than Fred. We all get caught up in the emotion from time to time and perhaps say some things that, on reflection, probably were not well chosen. But I know he's reached out to the players involved. … It's time for us to move on."

The Mets played one of their poorer games in weeks in the blustery, 45-degree Chicago weather Tuesday night, but manager Terry Collins said he didn't believe the controversy was a factor.

"We just chalk it up as a game we didn't play very good," Collins said. "We have not played like this in a long time. Maybe it's out of our system now."

On the medical front, Alderson said third baseman David Wright met in Los Angeles with a back specialist and physical therapist and there was nothing "that changed anything in terms of his diagnosis or expectations about him coming back."

He said there is no timetable yet for Wright's return but doctors say the lower back stress fracture is "on its way to healing …. He'll be back in relatively short order."

EARLIER: The New York Mets regrouped in Chicago Tuesday, trying to deal diplomatically with the fallout from owner Fred Wilpon's negative comments about three of the team's best players.

Manager Terry Collins called a team meeting in the Wrigley Field clubhouse to address the latest storm and said Wilpon spoke to outfielder Carlos Beltran and shortstop Jose Reyes in a conference call Tuesday. Third baseman David Wright was still in Los Angeles, where he sought a second opinion on his lower back stress fracture.

"Obviously, it was there. So you just say, 'Hey we've got to just stick together and take the high road and keep going,' " said outfielder Jason Bay, of the meeting. "That's why we got together … to try to make sure everyone was on the same page and not letting that take over."

Collins said Wilpon "talked with Carlos and Jose and everybody's on the same page."

Asked how Wilpon explained his comments, Collins said "he didn't get into that, according to the players. He just said, 'Sorry it happened, sorry it got out.' "

Beltran and Reyes, targets of Wilpon's comments in The New Yorker article that was released Monday, worked hard not to fan the fires.

"He's the boss. He can say whatever he wants to," said Reyes, with a smile, before the Mets' opener of a three-game series against the Cubs in Wrigley Field. "I can't worry about what he said."

Said Beltran, whom Wilpon said is 65-70% of the player the Mets got when they signed him to a seven-year deal in 2005: "Right now, what is important is that I'm healthy….. I don't feel 70 or 65, I feel 100%."

"Basically a surprise, not only to me, but to everyone," Beltran said, of the reaction to the comments. "In the years I have been with this organization, I have given everything I have. ... Unfortunately, the years that you're hurt you can't produce the way I know I can produce when I'm healthy."

"I'm not going to let this affect me," he added. "I'm just going to continue to play hard for this team until my last days here."

Both Reyes and Beltran are in the final year of their contracts, prompting speculation they could he dealt at the trading deadline if the Mets aren't in the playoff race.

"If we don't start playing good baseball, or start winning ballgames, something might happen. Honestly, I'm not worried about that," Beltran said.

Wilpon said in the article that Reyes "thinks he's going to get Carl Crawford money" (seven years, $142 million) as a free agent next winter, but "he's had everything wrong with him."

Reyes declined to speculate about his future, mid-summer or next offseason. "Right now, I can't put too many thoughts in my head. I don't know what's going to happen in the future," he said.

Wright, who the owner called a "good kid … not a superstar," is on the disabled list and will not be in Chicago for the series. He released a statement Monday calling Wilpon "a good man" who is "obviously going through some difficult times."

Wilpon is being sued for $1 billion by a trustee seeking to recover funds for victims of Bernard Madoff's Ponzi scheme. Wilpon invested with Madoff and has said he is a victim.

Beltran and Reyes are both having solid, healthy years for the Mets, 22-24 entering Tuesday night's game. Beltran has played in 44 games and is hitting .280, with 8 homers and 25 RBI. Reyes is hitting .310 with 17 stolen bases in 46 games.

themetfairy
May 25 2011 08:35 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Telling someone not to overreact almost assures that there will be overreaction.

And 30% is not a small number....

Ceetar
May 25 2011 08:39 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

themetfairy wrote:
Telling someone not to overreact almost assures that there will be overreaction.

And 30% is not a small number....


doh, my post today was about overreacting. I swear I hadn't read this yet!

Freddy basically said it'd be up to Alderson, which is what we knew anyway, which is why what he says doesn't mean much. Won't stop everyone from overreacting to it despite Alderson already being pretty clear about the budget for next year.

TransMonk
May 25 2011 08:40 AM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Wow.

Benjamin Grimm
May 25 2011 12:42 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I don't see where Sandy says that the $100 million figure is untrue (which is what I was hoping to see) just that we shouldn't overreact to it.

All I can say is, if the Wilpons can't afford to run a large-market team like a large-market team, they need to step aside. The sooner the better.

Ceetar
May 25 2011 12:47 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I don't see where Sandy says that the $100 million figure is untrue (which is what I was hoping to see) just that we shouldn't overreact to it.

All I can say is, if the Wilpons can't afford to run a large-market team like a large-market team, they need to step aside. The sooner the better.


Let's ask it this way: Are you comfortable or aware the payroll could be at that $100 million level?


"No."


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/p ... d-injuries

Edgy DC
May 25 2011 12:47 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I don't think it's true or false. It's just unknown.

Anywings, Santana's on the mound, Wright and Davis are one day more healed, and millyuns and millyuns are coming off the books. That much is known.

metirish
May 25 2011 12:50 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ceetar wrote:
themetfairy wrote:
Telling someone not to overreact almost assures that there will be overreaction.

And 30% is not a small number....


doh, my post today was about overreacting. I swear I hadn't read this yet!

Freddy basically said it'd be up to Alderson, which is what we knew anyway, which is why what he says doesn't mean much. Won't stop everyone from overreacting to it despite Alderson already being pretty clear about the budget for next year.



Are you saying that next years payroll "is up to Alderson"?, like if he goes out and signs a bunch of players and the figure is then $150 million that it's OK?


Maybe I am not understanding you Ceetar, which is why I am asking.

Ceetar
May 25 2011 01:03 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

metirish wrote:
Ceetar wrote:

doh, my post today was about overreacting. I swear I hadn't read this yet!

Freddy basically said it'd be up to Alderson, which is what we knew anyway, which is why what he says doesn't mean much. Won't stop everyone from overreacting to it despite Alderson already being pretty clear about the budget for next year.



Are you saying that next years payroll "is up to Alderson"?, like if he goes out and signs a bunch of players and the figure is then $150 million that it's OK?


Maybe I am not understanding you Ceetar, which is why I am asking.


I'm sure there's a limit, a budget, an idea. But Alderson has made that clear that A. the payroll will likely be less than this year and B. He'd like to be somewhat below his 'cap' so that he has flexibility.

So yeah, the payroll is going down and barring a playoff run that results in an extra 30million in expected revenue.. that's where it's at, but he's in the past shot down the 90-100 million range and seems to do so again here. He's specifically stated that Reyes would fit if they needed him to. (With the caveat that he didn't know if they could fit much else)

All Fred was saying is that you CAN be competitive with less, and if Sandy's budget for next year is 100, he's not going to force him to spend more or less.

metirish
May 25 2011 01:07 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

[youtube:1dncavp0]GiPe1OiKQuk[/youtube:1dncavp0]

batmagadanleadoff
May 25 2011 01:11 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I don't see where Sandy says that the $100 million figure is untrue (which is what I was hoping to see) just that we shouldn't overreact to it.

All I can say is, if the Wilpons can't afford to run a large-market team like a large-market team, they need to step aside. The sooner the better.


You're preaching to the choir, here. The even bigger insult will occur if the Mets intend to continue to charge fans close to $200 for an infield field level ticket to watch a mid-market payroll team.

soupcan
May 25 2011 01:12 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I don't know how many of you have read the S.I. article yet, but it sez that all the money coming off the books will not be going back into salary. It is to be reinvested in the club.

I took that to mean 'paying off debts'.

batmagadanleadoff
May 25 2011 01:18 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ceetar wrote:
I'm sure there's a limit, a budget, an idea. But Alderson has made that clear that ....


Alderson said this and Freddie said that. Between the fact that nobody in the Mets FO is ever bound by anything they tell you (Whaddya gonna do if they lied to you? Sue them? Root for the Phillies?) , the vast wiggle room that they enjoy from their purposely vague comments, and the changing-every-minute nature of the Madoff affair, what Alderson or Wilpon tell you today is absolutely meaningless. To hang your hat on their every word, parsing their comments to the ridiculous nth degree for some guidance that you think you're gonna discern is a waste of your time. You might as well have a conversation with your pet cat.

Ceetar
May 25 2011 01:31 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
I'm sure there's a limit, a budget, an idea. But Alderson has made that clear that ....


Alderson said this and Freddie said that. Between the fact that nobody in the Mets FO is ever bound by anything they tell you (Whaddya gonna do if they lied to you? Sue them? Root for the Phillies?) , the vast wiggle room that they enjoy from their purposely vague comments, and the changing-every-minute nature of the Madoff affair, what Alderson or Wilpon say is absolutely meaningless. To hang your hat on their every word, parsing their comments to the ridiculous nth degree for some guidance that you think you're gonna discern is a waste of your time.


yes, and that includes "maybe it'll be 100million." I don't know when budget season is for MLB teams, when they put out numbers for 2012. (Presumably this is something they want to include in the pitch to the partial buyers) If the Mets get/stay healthy and win 85 games, i.e. if they remain competitive throughout, that estimated 70million loss could easily become 50. Of course, if they stay hurt, trade Reyes and Beltran, 70 can become 80.

More importantly, if the Mets remain competitive, people will buy in to the growth process, buy tickets for next year, and increase the base expected revenue for 2012, which allows the Mets to raise payroll (this is not inconsistant with stuff we've heard from Alderson).

so the bottom line is, the best way for the Mets to be good next year is to be good this year. Just win. Factor this in to the idea that if they trade Reyes, especially for non-ML talent that no one will even see, the despair and disappointment and the losing in August and September is going to sour potential buyers of season tickets and renewals.

Plenty of people are throwing out numbers and basically pulling them out of thin air. While the quotes of Alderson, and less so Wilpon, are basically meaningless, it's the only thing we have to go on because trying to guess based on what goes on with the trade deadline. Obviously if they sign players like Alderson has claimed they'll be able to do if they need/want to, that suggests one thing, and if the sell Beltran and Reyes and Frankie and Misch and the water cooler in the visitors dugout, it says another. We don't know anything. We never know anything. The Phillies looked tapped out and signed Cliff Lee. The Yankees last year didn't want to resign Matsui or Damon despite coming off a world series and seemed to infer they did have a budget.

I just refuse to be all doom and gloom and guess that they're going into a 3-year rebuilding process of suck when there are no more signs out of Flushing that they will than won't.

batmagadanleadoff
May 25 2011 01:39 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ceetar wrote:

I just refuse to be all doom and gloom and guess that they're going into a 3-year rebuilding process of suck when there are no more signs out of Flushing that they will than won't.



Well then look on the bright side. Josh Thole could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Miguel Tejada -- the next Ernie Banks. The Giants might give us Tim Lincecum for Jose Reyes. If Dillon Gee learns to pitch like Greg Maddux and Johan Santana has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.

metirish
May 25 2011 01:44 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Do all those missing fans come back with a competitive 85 win team?, I don't think so , playoffs is what's needed to get the excitement and fans back IMO.

Ceetar
May 25 2011 01:50 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

metirish wrote:
Do all those missing fans come back with a competitive 85 win team?, I don't think so , playoffs is what's needed to get the excitement and fans back IMO.


I dunno. I think that's very much up in the air, and I'm glad i'm not the one predicting it and budgeting for it. Johan coming back plays in too. I know regardless of standings if he returns I'm going to make a point to get to a game he pitches.

I do think 85ish wins gets some fans. If they're still "in the race" so to speak in August going into September, even if it's mostly a gutshot chance, fans will come. It might just be the difference between fans coming that were already buying tickets and picking up some deals on stub hub. But that's parking an concessions revenue. The park looks fuller, it seems better to prospective advertisers.

And more importantly, I think an above .500 season keeps the status quo at least for season tickets. Keeps more people from jumping ship. Just that mental step forward from last year as "progress" leaves a better feeling with the team, that they're getting better.

metirish
May 25 2011 01:55 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I don't think Santana has the personality to draw fans in numbers to a game.

soupcan
May 25 2011 02:01 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Well then look on the bright side. Josh Thole could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Miguel Tejada -- the next Ernie Banks. The Giants might give us Tim Lincecum for Jose Reyes. If Dillon Gee learns to pitch like Greg Maddux and Johan Santana has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.



Uncanny. My mindset from 8th - 10th grade:


John Stearns could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Frank Taveras -- the next Ernie Banks. The Dodgers might give us Fernando Valenzuela for Hubie Brooks. If Tim Leary learns to pitch like Tom Seaver and Randy Jones/Mickey Lolich has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.

batmagadanleadoff
May 25 2011 02:03 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

metirish wrote:
I don't think Santana has the personality to draw fans in numbers to a game.


If the Mets are irrelevant by the time he returns, I don't think Santana will improve Mets attendance meaningfully, if at all. And if the Mets are out of it and Santana struggles with a diminished repertoire, fugghedaboutit.

batmagadanleadoff
May 25 2011 02:05 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Well then look on the bright side. Josh Thole could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Miguel Tejada -- the next Ernie Banks. The Giants might give us Tim Lincecum for Jose Reyes. If Dillon Gee learns to pitch like Greg Maddux and Johan Santana has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.



Uncanny. My mindset from 8th - 10th grade:


John Stearns could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Frank Taveras -- the next Ernie Banks. The Dodgers might give us Fernando Valenzuela for Hubie Brooks. If Tim Leary learns to pitch like Tom Seaver and Randy Jones/Mickey Lolich has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.


Where's Doug Flynn? Wasn't he your favorite? You couldn't have thought that Flynn was gonna be the next Joe Morgan because then the Reds would've kept him. And Ryne Sandberg was still a teenager.

metsmarathon
May 25 2011 02:08 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

metirish wrote:
Do all those missing fans come back with a competitive 85 win team?, I don't think so , playoffs is what's needed to get the excitement and fans back IMO.


not for most of the summer, and probably not too much for the next year either unless there was something big and productive happening over the off season.

soupcan
May 25 2011 02:14 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Where's Doug Flynn? Wasn't he your favorite? You couldn't have thought that Flynn was gonna be the next Joe Morgan because then the Reds would've kept him. And Ryne Sandberg was still a teenager.


Correct! However as wide-eyed and Ceetar-ish as I was, I knew Flynn would never be much of a hitter. Loved him for that sweet, sweet golden glove and I would never have considered trading him.

The one solace I took from those lean years was that the Mets would either lead the league or be near the top in DPs turned. It was the ONE thing they did well and how could that continue without Flynn?!

Of course leading the league in DPs also meant that your team had to allow quite a lot of runners to reach base, which was...um, not really a good stat.

batmagadanleadoff
May 25 2011 02:16 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

soupcan wrote:
batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Where's Doug Flynn? Wasn't he your favorite? You couldn't have thought that Flynn was gonna be the next Joe Morgan because then the Reds would've kept him. And Ryne Sandberg was still a teenager.


Correct! However as wide-eyed and Ceetar-ish as I was, I knew Flynn would never be much of a hitter. Loved him for that sweet, sweet golden glove and I would never have considered trading him.

The one solace I took from those lean years was that the Mets would either lead the league or be near the top in DPs turned. It was the ONE thing they did well and how could that continue without Flynn?!

Of course leading the league in DPs also meant that your team had to allow quite a lot of runners to reach base, which was...um, not really a good stat.



I'm gonna sign off the CPF for now. I'm probably the last Mets fan you'd wanna have an extended conversation with about Doug Flynn.

Ceetar
May 25 2011 02:18 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

I don't know why we're making this team out to be a 65 win team again? Are we really that reactionary?

Is it really that wrong to think that everything won't fail? That Jason Bay won't hit .201 for his Mets career and that Johan will actually pitch again, and pretty well, in 2012? That Niese will get better or that Thole will look more like 2010 than 2011?

soupcan
May 25 2011 02:19 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
I'm gonna sign off the CPF for now. I'm probably the last Mets fan you'd wanna have an extended conversation with about Doug Flynn.



It's cool, I'm long over it.

soupcan
May 25 2011 02:24 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Ceetar wrote:
I don't know why we're making this team out to be a 65 win team again? Are we really that reactionary?

Is it really that wrong to think that everything won't fail? That Jason Bay won't hit .201 for his Mets career and that Johan will actually pitch again, and pretty well, in 2012? That Niese will get better or that Thole will look more like 2010 than 2011?



Ceet - I appreciate the optimism but like I said, you sound like I did in the 70's man. Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'.

Thole? Really? And let's add a Bay - George Foster analogy to my previous post (which is really an insult to Foster).

Ceetar
May 25 2011 02:28 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

soupcan wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
I don't know why we're making this team out to be a 65 win team again? Are we really that reactionary?

Is it really that wrong to think that everything won't fail? That Jason Bay won't hit .201 for his Mets career and that Johan will actually pitch again, and pretty well, in 2012? That Niese will get better or that Thole will look more like 2010 than 2011?



Ceet - I appreciate the optimism but like I said, you sound like I did in the 70's man. Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'.

Thole? Really? And let's add a Bay - George Foster analogy to my previous post (which is really an insult to Foster).


Why not? Why can't Thole hit like he did previous to this year? or play defense like it? Why is Jason Bay's 140 or whatever games it's been more telling than his previous 1000? Players don't turn red when they're done.

dgwphotography
May 25 2011 02:29 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Well then look on the bright side. Josh Thole could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Miguel Tejada -- the next Ernie Banks. The Giants might give us Tim Lincecum for Jose Reyes. If Dillon Gee learns to pitch like Greg Maddux and Johan Santana has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.



Uncanny. My mindset from 8th - 10th grade:


John Stearns could develop into the next Johnny Bench; Frank Taveras -- the next Ernie Banks. The Dodgers might give us Fernando Valenzuela for Hubie Brooks. If Tim Leary learns to pitch like Tom Seaver and Randy Jones/Mickey Lolich has another Cy Young caliber season, the Mets should be competitive.


This just gave me the cold sweats - I was immediately transported back to those dark days....

I'm going to lay down now...

G-Fafif
May 25 2011 02:34 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

Wait, John Stearns didn't develop into another Johnny Bench?

Edgy DC
May 25 2011 02:37 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

It's not like there isn't still time.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 25 2011 02:47 PM
Re: After "Madoff's Curveball"

G-Fafif wrote:
Wait, John Stearns didn't develop into another Johnny Bench?


Well, eventually-- and especially at the cellular level-- their performance levels should be about equal. (If they aren't already.)