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Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

MFS62 Jul 24 2011 06:31 PM

I remember the Cincinnati Reds team that won the National League pennant 50 years ago. When the two NL teams left New York and headed West there were stories that the Reds might move to New York. So I started to follow them closely and began to root for them. Even though an expansion team would be coming to New York in 1962, I was happy when the Reds made it to the World Series against the hated Yankees. Here are some of my memories of that 1961 Reds team, and some KTE comparisons with the current Reds. For you figure filberts, the links to the stats are at the bottom of the page. They played in Crosley Field. They used to call a ballpark like that a bandbox. That term isn’t used much any more, but any newer term wouldn’t have made the place any bigger. They kept changing the configuration over time, but the one I remember had a left field line about 330 feet and the field sloped upward to a scoreboard.in left center. Called “The Terrace”, it made for some interesting catches and futile attempts. The clock atop the scoreboard was 45 feet high, and you had to clear it for a home run. The center field fence was only 387 feet away. Right field was about 360 feet down the line. Both fences went straight out to center, with each power alley over 380 feet away.. Capacity was about 30-35,000 (depending on the year). The fans were close, and they really got into it. Catchers: Lonas Edgar (Ed) Bailey. Holds the distinction of being the only baseball player in major league history to be named Lonas. That was the lefty hitter’s only distinction, and he was traded in April to San Francisco for second baseman Don Blasingame (see below). That deal was significant because it allowed San Fran to free up another lefty hitting catcher for the expansion draft. That catcher was Hobie Landrith, the first draft pick of the Mets. Jerry Zimmerman - a righty hitter who had some occasional power. He platooned with Johnny Edwards - a lefty hitter who may have been the smartest catcher in baseball after Moe Berg. He held a degree in Ceramics Engineering. No, he wasn’t making pottery. He worked on the development of nose cones for things like rockets and space shuttles. Lasted over ten years in the majors, then went on to probably earn more money post career than he ever had as a ballplayer. Other catchers were Bob Schmidt and Darrell Johnson (who later managed in the major leagues for 8 years). The current Reds catchers are: Ramon Hernandez, who seems to have been playing since Crosley Field was new, and can still hit, field and throw, and Ryan Hannigan, who may be able to do those things some day. First Base: Gordy Coleman - a lefty first baseman. He was similar to most of the guys who would have answered a casting call for a first baseman in those days - a tall lefty hitter with decent power. 1961 was his best year in the majors. The current Reds first baseman is Joey Votto. He was snubbed for the All-Star team, then won the MVP last year, and puts up the kinds of numbers that make his Roto owners have wet dreams. Keystone Combo: (Nobody calls it that any more) In those days, the job of the shortstop and second basemen was defense. Any offense they provided was an extra. And shortstop Eddie Kasko and second baseman Don Blasingame fit that role perfectly. Kasko was the first shortstop I can remember who wore glasses. Blasingame was nicknamed “Blazer”. It was obvious to anyone who saw him that it was because of his name, and not because of his running speed. They were considered place-holders for the young DP combo of the future. Leo Cardenas went on to be a very good shortstop for the team. Elio Chacon became an expansion Met. The middle infielders for the current Reds are more productive with the bat. Second baseman Brandon Phillips is an All-Star caliber player, and has batted cleanup for at least part of this year and now bats second or fifth. Shortstop has been split between last year’s World Series MVP Edgar Renteria and Paul Janish who six years younger than Renteria and still not as good. Third Base: The regular was Gene Freese. He was a steady hitter with home run power. A good comparison for him is: Current third baseman Scott Rolen, who was injured earlier this season this season and is again on the DL. The comparison is with the bat only. While Freese was a decent fielder, Rolen is an eight time Gold Glove winner. Infield reserves: The 1961 sub infielders were Jim Baumer, first baseman Dick Gernert and two third basemen - Willie Jones, who was known throughout his long major league career as “Puddin’ Head”, and future Met Cliff Cook (who, according to Bob Murphy’s call “almost won” a game in Pittsburgh with a home run. The ball went foul.) For the 2011 Reds, Ex-Met (among lots of teams) Miguel Cairo is the main infielder off the bench. He has played third while Rolen has been injured, platooning with Juan Francisco. Left Field: Left fielders are usually slow guys who hit for power and aren’t agile enough to play first base. Come onnnnn dowwwwwn, Wally Post. But he played the tricky left field terrace pretty well. He had a very good arm and also played right field, depending on the ballpark and game situation. It looks like they didn’t throw away that mold. It was used to pump out current left fielder Johnny Gomes. Center Field: For a 10 year period, Vada Pinson was maybe the best all around center fielder in the National League not named Willie Mays. His defense didn’t get the respect it deserved because he played in a small ballpark. Another problem he encountered was his first name. Like Cito Gaston when he first came up, reporters and teammates thought he was Latin American and kept speaking Spanish to him. Pinson was born in Oakland California. In 2011, centerfield has been patrolled most of the time by Drew Stubbs. The 26 year old former first round draft pick has been leading off. Those things lead me to believe that he’s fast and he’s good defensively. He has shown decent power but he strikes out a lot. A LOT! Right Field: In a Golden Age of Hall of Fame right fielders, Frank Robinson was 24 Karat. He was a 5 tool player with a sixth tool - the way he played the game. His demeanor screamed “You’re not going to beat me today ” and very few teams or opponents could. He is the only player ever to win the MVP award in both leagues. Forget the “if you could pick a player for your all-time team” kinds of questions. If I could pick someone to be in my foxhole during an attack, I would pick Frank. (I have waxed rhapsodic about him in other posts, so back to business.) The current right fielder is Jay Bruce. He burst on the scene a few years ago with a lot of home runs. The pitchers must have figured him out, because his numbers dropped to more pedestrian levels. But this year he must have made some adjustments, because he has been among the league leaders in home runs and RBI. Outfield reserves: Gus Bell - Lefty batter, who later played for the Mets Jerry Lynch - “Lynch in the Pinch” for many years. He also occasionally played left field. Pete Whisenant - played many positions, few of them well, but a “good guy” in the clubhouse. Joe Gaines - his full name was Arnesta Joe Gaines, making him the only Arnesta ever to play in the majors. I wonder if he and Lonas Edgar Bailey ever bonded. The current primary outfield reserve is righty hitter Chris Heisey, who sometimes starts in left and center. Earlier this year, Heisey hit three home runs in one game against the Yankees. The other reserves are Fred Lewis and Jeremy Hermida. Starting Pitchers: Jim O’Toole - Lefty pitcher who led the team in strikeouts. Had a 10 year career. Joey Jay - A righty who started and ended his career with the Braves. In between he pitched six years with the Reds. He led the NL in wins with 21 in 1961. Bob Purkey - The durable righty had all the requisite pitches to be a starter - fastball, curveball and spitter. His best year in the majors was 1962, when he had a 23-5 record. A fair comparison was Jack Morris, who was also said to “pitch to the score” because his team scored so many runs and they played in hitters’ ballparks. Their career ERA+ and WHIP numbers are fairly similar. Ken Hunt - This was his only major league season. He was named Rookie Pitcher of the Year by The Sporting News. The next year, he was back in the minors , with a 2-8 record and an ERA over 7.00. I’m guessing a sore arm done him in. Jim Maloney - The second season in the bigs for this fireballing righthander. Later in his career he locked up in some classic pitching duels against Al Jackson of the Mets. The Current Reds starters are: Bronson Arroyo - like Purkey, a righty who will keep you in most games and occasionally gives you a very good one. Johnny Cueto - He pitched 7 no-hit innings in his first win this year, and his second was equally impressive. Since then, he has continued to be effective, and has emerged as the ace of the staff.. Mike Leake - former first round pick, a “contact” pitcher who throws sinkers and cutters with good control. Travis Wood - Second year lefty hasn’t been as good this year as last, pitching to a high ERA. Homer Bailey - A former first round pick, the young righty has pitched well this year. Edinson Volquez - Picking up on what might have become a Reds tradition, the righty fireballer is the only person named Edinson to ever play in the majors. He has excellent stuff, but nobody seems to know where his pitches will go - more Ks that a Kardashian family picnic, and a lot of walks, too. But he has been sent down twice this year to work on his control, so the Reds have added (the One-and-only Dontrelle ) Willis to the staff. Middle Inning Pitchers: Jay Hook - Later a starter for the expansion Mets. May have formed the smartest battery in major league history when he threw to John Edwards. He had a degree in Engineering from Northwestern University. It was said that he could explain the physics of the curve ball, but never could throw a good one. Marshall Bridges - The lefty later became a Yankee. Naturally, his nickname in the clubhouse was “Sheriff”. Claude Osteen - The 21 year old lefty went on to have an 18 year career in the majors, most prominently with Washington and Los Angeles (NL). The current Reds middle inning pitchers are : Righthanders Sam LeClure, and Nick Masset. They seem to all have similar stuff and are waiting for a chance to crack the rotation. Lefty Matt Maloney has similar aspirations, but not the same quality of stuff. Relief Pitchers: Ken Johnson - the righty split the fourth/ fifth starter role with Maloney and Hunt. Howie Nunn - here ya’ go trivia fans. The righty actually had a chance to make the 1962 Mets. He was in Spring Training with the Mets, but was returned to the Reds before the start of the season, so they could keep - Sherman “Roadblock” Jones - who survived the cut and pitched for the expansion Mets. Bill Henry - there was no such thing as a specialized reliever in those days. Bill Henry was the lefty part of a two- headed closer. And closers in those days could actually be called upon to pitch more than one inning. Jim Brosnan - The righty closer for the team. He wrote two very good books while still a player. The Long Season was the first of the inside-the-locker-room genre, and Broz actually wrote it himself. Pennant Chase chronicled the 1961 Reds season. Both very enjoyable reads. In one of them, he credits Pete Whisenant for helping him narrow down his pitch selection in order to become more effective. When he finished playing, Brosnan became a sportswriter in Chicago. By 2011, roles in the bullpen have been more defined that 50 years ago. The current pitchers who would set up the set-up man are righties Carlos Fisher and Logan Andrusek, who have both been good and lefty Bill Bray who has been very good. The primary setup man until he went on the DL earlier this year is Cuban lefty Aroldis Chapman. No, you guessed it. No need to look it up, he is the only Aroldis to ever play in the majors. (Now that I think about it more, it must be a tradition.) More interesting that his name is his fastball. Earlier this year, it was clocked a either 101 or 105 MPH, depending on the radar gun used. Either way, it is fast. Hitters must be underwhelmed at the prospect of facing him. And one day, he will be taking over for current closer, 36 year old righty Francisco Cordero. But the way Cordero has been pitching, that may not be for another while. Managers: The skipper in 1961 was Fred Hutchinson, an ex-major league pitcher who passed away during the 1964 season at the age of 45. He was beloved by everyone who knew him. MLB has named a good guy award after him and a fund has been formed in his name for medical research. The current manager is Dusty Baker, who has managed 18 seasons in the majors, winning one pennant. Baker is the Simon Cowell for pitchers, ruining many promising careers over the years. The numbers: 1961 Reds: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1961.shtml 2011 Reds: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2011.shtml Well, that does it. I saluted the 1960 Pirates last year and the 1961 Reds this year. That ain’t happenin’ for the next two NL pennant winners. The first paragraph should tell you why. I hope to continue this with a salute to the 1964 Cardinals. Later

themetfairy Jul 24 2011 06:38 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Nice knowledge 62!

Fman99 Jul 24 2011 07:12 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Nice knowledge. Refreshing change of pace from the usual juvenile pu pu platter of cock jokes and pop culture minutiae.

Frayed Knot Jul 24 2011 07:18 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Dontrelle Willis is tonight's starter for the Reds - and was winning last time I looked - so the only way we'll see him is as a pinch-hitter. One of the reasons the Reds are leading the Braves is that Miguel Cairo hit a HR (as did Brandon Phillips). I don't think I ever saw Cairo get a ball out of the infield when he was a Met.

Frayed Knot Jul 24 2011 07:49 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Fman99 wrote: Refreshing change of pace from the usual juvenile pu pu platter of cock jokes and pop culture minutiae. Oh come on now! It's Dickey vs Leake in the Monday game. Shirley you can do something with that!

Frayed Knot Jul 24 2011 09:05 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Reds'll be in a good mood as Drew Stubbs hits the first pitch of the bottom of the 9th into the RF seats for a walk-off 4-3 win v Braves. Scott Linebrink was the pitching victim.

G-Fafif Jul 24 2011 09:30 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

This one was a helluva lot fun. Nice retro KTE, MFS.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 25 2011 09:03 AM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Nice woik, 62. It's out job to keep the Reds from catching the Pirates in the NL Central.

Ashie62 Jul 25 2011 09:09 AM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Great job. I used to enjoy watching the Mets at Crosley, Forbes Field, Jarry Park and Briggs Stadium. That slope at Crosley was one of a kind.

seawolf17 Jul 25 2011 10:18 AM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Fascinating how many of them went on to become Mets.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 04:32 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Thanks for the history lesson. I did not know that the Crosley Field scoreboard, including its topmost clock, was in play. Makes Citi Field's left-center field dimensions little league by comparison. Ted Williams bats at Crosley Field in an exhibition night game. The Crosley clock informs and looms in the background.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 04:41 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

More history. Last Friday marked the 25th year anniversary of one of the most unforgettable games in Mets history. Here, future former Met John Franco reacts after Dave Parker drops a catchable fly ball with two outs in the 9th and the Reds up by two, allowing the Mets to tie the game, and more importantly, blowing Franco's Save.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 04:52 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

The error.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 05:00 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Isn't it odd to see Gary Carter with a glove but no mask or chest protector? With the Mets bench depleted from earlier substitutions and ejections, Carter mans third and fields his first chance flawlessly.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 05:21 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 25 2011 07:31 PM

After the ejections, Johnson was forced to use at least one pitcher as a fielder. And so Orosco manned right field. Here, Orosco crams for some outfielding tips from Mookie Wilson and Lenny Dykstra while Roger McDowell takes his warm-up pitches. 7/22/86 McDowell walks to his next position -- right field -- as Orosco is called on to pitch. But not before first heading to the Mets dugout to exchange his pitching glove for an outfielder's glove. You can see McDowell putting a batting glove on his left hand for further protection or cushioning should a line drive come his way. "Would you believe that the Jesse-Roger tango, repeated several times (and eventually incorporating Mookie, who gamely shuttled between left and right when Davey tried extra hard to hide a hurler), was probably only the second-most noteworthy aspect of this game? Maybe nothing beat it for peculiarity — a sense enhanced when Rose flipped through a rule book in the Reds’ dugout in an effort to protest Orosco being allowed to throw warmup tosses when he and McDowell switched in the midst of the eleventh inning — but the presence of a pitcher in the outfield didn’t truly define the classic this game was about to become." http://www.faithandfearinflushing.com/page/2/ Reds manager Pete Rose and coach George Scherger in a snit when Orosco, who had already pitched before, was allowed the customary warmup pitches a reliever is accorded when first appearing in a game.

G-Fafif Jul 25 2011 06:07 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

These images are priceless. Thanks BMF.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 07:23 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

These images are priceless. Thanks BMF. My pleasure. ___ The play of the game. With the score still tied in the bottom of the 12th, the Reds are suddenly poised to win the game when Buddy Bell, then Dave Parker, each single with nobody out. Though runners are on first on second, the Reds, their own bench also depleted, are forced to send up pitcher Carl Willis to bat. It's an obvious sacrifice situation, especially with the pitcher batting, and one that even I would approve of. A runner on third with one out has a better chance of scoring than a runner on second with nobody out. That the successful sac bunt might minimize the chances of scoring many other runs in the inning is moot in the bottom of the 12th because the Reds' first run wins the game. Here's the Mets' defensive alignment with Willis batting: Keith Hernandez had set up about 45 -50 feet from Willis. He's stationary in the picture above. He'd begin his famous charge during Orosco's windup and delivery. By the time Willis bunted, Keith was already on a direct line in between home plate and the pitcher's mound. If Keith had gotten to his spot any earlier, Jesse's pitch would've hit Keith in the back of his head. Keith fielded the ball on the third base side of the infield; the momentum from his aggressive charge carried him practically to the third base foul line, where he threw out lead runner Bell. Carter completed the 3-5-4 doubleplay by gunning Willis out at first. If this was any first baseman other than Keith Hernandez, I would presumptuously write that this play was probably the greatest defensive moment of the first baseman's career. It would've had to have been. But for anyone here who was too young to see Hernandez live, I'm telling you that Keith pulled off these gems, seemingly every week. And in the mid-80's Keith's tactics were still revolutionary.

Edgy MD Jul 25 2011 07:50 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Best part about it was that teams still tried to bunt against the Mets --- Whitey, it seemed, as a point of pride. And Keith destroyed them for doing so.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 25 2011 08:44 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

This is so great it's overwhelming my envy that Batmag is probably the only person alive with this all on video at home.

Edgy MD Jul 25 2011 08:51 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Look how far down the line Willis is when Keith is fielding the ball. About seven feet.

Edgy MD Jul 25 2011 08:55 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Edgy DC wrote: Look how far down the line Willis is when Keith is fielding the ball. About seven feet. It was like Keith was allowed to make plays other players weren't even allowed to attempt, and our advantage at first during those middle-80s years would be hard to quantify. That he played with Jim Kaat on the Cards and Roger McDowell on the Mets must have made bunting a particularly pointless exercise when partnered with those two, who were lightning quick off the mound and had very little territory to cover that Keith didn't already have dibbs on.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 09:01 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Edgy DC wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Look how far down the line Willis is when Keith is fielding the ball. About seven feet. It was like Keith was allowed to make plays other players weren't even allowed to attempt, and our advantage at first during those middle-80s years would be hard to quantify. That he played with Jim Kaat on the Cards and Roger McDowell on the Mets must have made bunting a particularly pointless exercise when partnered with those two, who were lightning quick off the mound and had very little territory to cover that Keith didn't already have dibbs on. What's makes Keith's play especially impressive is that Willis, aware of Keith's defensive abilities, tried to bunt the ball away from Keith. Willis bunted the ball down the third base line and Keith still fielded it. He got to that bunt so quickly that he was able to throw out Buddy Bell by the proverbial country mile. Bell was so easily out at third that he had no chance to start a takeout slide on Gary Carter.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 10:12 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

The melee.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 10:15 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Parker peels 'em off, one by one.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 25 2011 10:18 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Nutritious CAN be delicious! This might be my favorite KTE thread ever.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 10:25 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Did you expect that Kevin Mitchell would stand around idly during a gang fight?

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 10:28 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

It takes a village to bring down Kevin Mitchell.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 25 2011 10:29 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Gwreck Jul 25 2011 11:57 PM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Ok, time to name your price. How much do you want for a copy of the video?

Benjamin Grimm Jul 26 2011 04:27 AM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Gah! Astroturf was ugly!

Edgy MD Jul 26 2011 05:37 AM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

Eric Gregg during a leaner period.

MFS62 Jul 26 2011 08:08 AM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Nutritious CAN be delicious! This might be my favorite KTE thread ever. Yes. Too bad it didn't become what I intended it to be, a look back and look present at the Reds. As Seawolf said, it's amazing how many of those 1961 Reds became Mets. I thought at least some of you would have commented about the Howie Nunn factoid. Writing about those Reds of 1961, while a labor of love, was still a labor. I appreciate your entuhsuasm and research ability, but when I came back to this thread, the last thing I expected to see was a picture of Gary Carter's ass. Can someone please do some editing and move some of this to a "Keith was a great fielder"- type of thread? Thanks. Later

batmagadanleadoff Jul 28 2011 11:00 AM Re: Historic and Current KTE - The Reds

If this was any first baseman other than Keith Hernandez, I would presumptuously write that this play was probably the greatest defensive moment of the first baseman's career. It would've had to have been. But for anyone here who was too young to see Hernandez live, I'm telling you that Keith pulled off these gems, seemingly every week. And in the mid-80's Keith's tactics were still revolutionary. Revisiting Keith Hernandez's defense in that wild Mets Reds game strengthens, for me anyway, Keith's case for the Hall of Fame. Keith might not have slugged like the HR bashing first basemen that exist in any era, but he was a great hitter in his own right, winning an MVP with the Cards and finishing as runner-up with the Mets in the '84 MVP vote. But his defense should've punched his ticket to Cooperstown. Hernandez was a revolutionary who reinvented the position. He might be the best fielding first baseman in the history of baseball. I know that I never saw anyone better, for whatever that's worth. I wrote that in the mid-80's, Keith's defensive tactics were still revolutionary even though Keith himself had been Keith for about 10 years. To tell you the truth, Keith's tactics are still revolutionary today, 20 years after Keith's retirement. Nobody pulls off plays like that, let alone with the kind of regularity that spoiled Keith's followers: we came to expect that whenever the situation called for it, Hernandez would field a bunt before the batter was barely out of the batter's box. Derek Jeter has been immortalized, for just once, making a play on par with what Keith pulled off every week or so.