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K-Rod Traded

MFS62 Jul 12 2011 10:12 PM

to Milwaukee. Announced right after the game: http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=14059043 Later

metsmarathon Jul 12 2011 10:18 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Huzzah!

Gwreck Jul 12 2011 10:19 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ok, now we sign Reyes to an extension.

metsguyinmichigan Jul 12 2011 10:41 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

So much for Scott Boras' proclamation!

metirish Jul 13 2011 04:06 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

A hell of a thing to wake up to....wow....the Brewers , didn't see that one.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2011 04:17 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Interesting! So who's the closer now? Parnell? Or is it a "bullpen by committee"? (I hope it is.) I wonder when we find out who the two players to be named are. Will it be during the season, or after? Or might they not even bother? (That's happened before, I think.)

metirish Jul 13 2011 04:25 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

A mixture of Izzy(for however long he's here) and Parnell to start I suppose.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 04:58 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Okay, quick, start naming Brewers. 2 PTBNL though, seems like we could've gotten more. Guesses on the roster move? Igarashi? Thayer?

metsmarathon Jul 13 2011 06:37 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

we had no leverage. plus, we just got $17.5M for next year. that seems like plenty.

soupcan Jul 13 2011 06:55 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

metsmarathon wrote: we had no leverage. plus, we just got $17.5M for next year. that seems like plenty. Agreed. The biggest thing to me is that with Frankie gone and Beltran coming off the books, there is plenty o' do-re-mi to sign a really good shortstop. No excuses now.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 06:57 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

metsmarathon wrote: we had no leverage. plus, we just got $17.5M for next year. that seems like plenty. no leverage? I don't know about that. Alderson's never seemed worried about it, and it's July 13th. Leverage is created by more than one team being interested, which wouldn't have been impossible. I'm not upset that they traded him, obviously that 17.5 is helpful, especially without the buyout this way, but I'm not relishing Igarashi and wish 'named later' was 'named sooner'

Frayed Knot Jul 13 2011 06:57 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

We probably should have seen Milwaukee coming, or at least as a decent possibility. They're in the thick of a division chase, their GM has a history of making 'go-for-it-now/don't worry about the future' moves, their pen has been shaky at best this season, and Frankie can share save-opps/game-finishes with Axford so as to assure the vesting option doesn't kick in. IIRC, PtBNLs need to be at a different level than those they're traded for - meaning that neither is a ML player at this moment. The problem with the Brewers system is that it was gutted before we ever got there as pre-season trades for Grienke & Marcum took whatever decent prospects they had and shipped them to Toronto and/or KC. So what this all probably means is that the NYM brass gets to take some additional time to see how a select group of lower/mid-level fare over the next few months before deciding which guys they want. I think the thing has to wrap up within six months.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2011 07:01 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I wouldn't be at all surprised if ultimately, neither of the PTBNL's ever played a big league game for the Mets.

metirish Jul 13 2011 07:05 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised if ultimately, neither of the PTBNL's ever played a big league game for the Mets. agreed , this is a vesting dump.....anything else would be a bonus, like PTBNL knocking in the winning run in his one moment of glory.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 07:05 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised if ultimately, neither of the PTBNL's ever played a big league game for the Mets. I wonder how much money the Mets gave the Brewers? Figure if it's a lot they'd get something 'better' back. Although if they'd just released him they'd still have to pay the buyout I guess. (although get draft picks) But much like Wagner, neither guy could end up being much. neither of Wagner's PTBNL probably should've gotten much, if any, playing time.

metirish Jul 13 2011 07:07 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I read numbers like $5 million sent over or the buyout money which is what $3.5?

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 07:12 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: neither of Wagner's PTBNL probably should've gotten much, if any, playing time. I sure would've liked to have seen more of Chris Carter, especially as Lucas Duda was hitting .050 last year.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 07:13 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: neither of Wagner's PTBNL probably should've gotten much, if any, playing time. I sure would've liked to have seen more of Chris Carter, especially as Lucas Duda was hitting .050 last year. I would've liked to see him earlier, and then when he failed to be good, not held onto all season and used in key pinch hitting opportunities. Duda didn't get brought up until the'd pretty much given up didn't he?

Farmer Ted Jul 13 2011 07:14 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Never saw the Brewers as a player for K-Rod. I hope JP has a good time in Helena checking out the talent pool.

metsmarathon Jul 13 2011 07:18 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: metsmarathon wrote: we had no leverage. plus, we just got $17.5M for next year. that seems like plenty. no leverage? I don't know about that. Alderson's never seemed worried about it, and it's July 13th. Leverage is created by more than one team being interested, which wouldn't have been impossible. no leverage meaning we needed to get out from under htat contract, like, fast. we could ill afford to play coy and wait for a better haul while the market disappeared. we needed a win-now team with an established closer looking for a top setup man. how many were there? we couldn't play there 'well, we'll just keep the player' card because to do so would be ruinous. and its not like we could really play the 'we're keeping him around for the fans' card because nobody is coming out to see frankie close games. nobody. and he's not even making the team appreciably better. there was no way we could keep him, no reason we would want to, and a thin market to trade him into. thus, no leverage. typically, the worst thing that can happen for a team in looking to trade away a veteran is that they fail to trade a player, and lose him at season's end, getting nothing in return. in our case, the worst thing that could have happened is we keep the player and are forced to pay him. thus, no leverage.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2011 07:20 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Farmer Ted wrote: Never saw the Brewers as a player for K-Rod. I hope JP has a good time in Helena checking out the talent pool. It's possible that one or both players have already been determined, but the Brewers want to hang on to them for the rest of the season, either because they don't want to leave one of their farm teams short, or because they want depth for the remainder of the playoff race.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 07:20 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: neither of Wagner's PTBNL probably should've gotten much, if any, playing time. I sure would've liked to have seen more of Chris Carter, especially as Lucas Duda was hitting .050 last year. I would've liked to see him earlier, and then when he failed to be good, not held onto all season and used in key pinch hitting opportunities. Duda didn't get brought up until the'd pretty much given up didn't he? Jerry may have given up on the season, but I hadn't given up on Carter. Jerry, I'd given up on.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2011 07:22 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Also, regarding leverage, remember that Rodriguez said a few weeks ago that he'd be okay being traded to a contending team that already had a closer. Now, the other day, his new agent Boras said that that's no longer the case. Which means that the market for Frankie was reduced to teams that needed a closer, or teams that wanted him to set up and were not on his 10-team no-trade list. For all we know, the Brewers may have been the only viable team that fit that criteria.

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 07:25 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised if ultimately, neither of the PTBNL's ever played a big league game for the Mets. This. The Brewers mL system is pretty bare, and they may have to shave it even thinner to go completely all-in this year. They need another quality lefty bat to go along with Fielder, IMO.

Frayed Knot Jul 13 2011 07:26 AM Re: K-Rod Traded Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 13 2011 07:28 AM

Mets apparently kicking in $5mil - essentially the remainder of this year's contract - so what they'll save is the buyout fee ($3.5mil) and, of course, the possibility of being on the hook for next year's nut. Here was one pre-season look at some Brewers minor leaguers. Rogers, Scarpetta, Rivas & Peralta are currently on their 40-man and so (as far as I understand anyway) are NOT eligible for this deal. Of course things will have changed somewhat in the half-season since that list was published and new players were added in last month's draft (I believe drafted players can not be traded until six months after they sign). A quick glance at a Brewer forum had them fretting that Thornburg (11th on that list) would be one of the PtbNLs,

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 07:28 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Frayed Knot wrote: IIRC, PtBNLs need to be at a different level than those they're traded for - meaning that neither is a ML player at this moment. I'd like a confirmation on this, as I never knew such a thing. Obviously, it wasn't always true.

MFS62 Jul 13 2011 07:31 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Frayed Knot wrote: IIRC, PtBNLs need to be at a different level than those they're traded for - meaning that neither is a ML player at this moment. Except when a player is on the DL. So, it is still possible at least one of the players may be a major leaguer. Later

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 07:42 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

metsmarathon wrote: there was no way we could keep him, no reason we would want to, and a thin market to trade him into. thus, no leverage. typically, the worst thing that can happen for a team in looking to trade away a veteran is that they fail to trade a player, and lose him at season's end, getting nothing in return. in our case, the worst thing that could have happened is we keep the player and are forced to pay him. thus, no leverage. This is pure speculation? Who knows how thin the market was? I mean, Milwaukee wasn't even 'rumored' for whatever that's worth. how many other suitors may have been out there? The leverage is the 2.5 weeks until the trading deadline, plus the waiver period possibilities. Could've just released him too. Maybe paying 3.5 next year is worse than paying 5million this year (or really, paying nothing this year, since they were going to pay him that anyway) or maybe it's not. And this is without getting into 'mucking with his playing time' issues, which would've been really easy if the Mets fell out of it. Then you're paying 3.5 for some draft picks. I'm not unhappy with the move, I just expected to get more than two random minor leaguers sometime in the future. Something more than a pure salary dump in early July.

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 07:48 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

This was a good move. I would have accepted Prince Fielder's game-used jock strap back in trade to be guaranteed earlier rather than later that there was no chance we would be paying a reliever $17.5M next season.

bmfc1 Jul 13 2011 07:53 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I think that Sandy's logic was similar to Transmonk's: he was afraid that Terry would use Rodriguez so often that the contract would vest thereby making him untradable and his contract a liability to the future of the Mets. I doubt that they'll get much in return and, as suggested, I don't think that Sandy is very concerned about it.

seawolf17 Jul 13 2011 08:15 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

[idiot wfan caller] I think the two PTBNLs should be Fielder and Braun. [/idiot wfan caller]

attgig Jul 13 2011 08:28 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

It'll be very interesting who these 2 ptbnl's are...and I wonder if they can be higher based on frankie's option vesting or not (probably not, but worth internet speculation). knowing that their farm system is so thin, I'm somewhat hopeful that at least one of them is in their top 10.....speaking of, fangraphs just recently put up their top 10 prospects for the nl central: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... l-central/ Milwaukee Brewers 1. Jake Odorizzi, RHP* 2. Mark Rogers, RHP 3. Jeremy Jeffress, RHP* 4. Kyle Heckathorn, RHP 5. Wily Peralta, RHP 6. Cody Scarpetta, RHP 7. Hunter Morris, 1B/OF 8. Jimmy Nelson, RHP 9. Tyler Thornburg, RHP 10. Caleb Gindl, OF Like the Cubs, the Brewers organization saw a number of changes to its Top 10 list thanks to trades that happened during the off-season. I was able to adjust for the Shaun Marcum trade (loss of Brett Lawrie) but the Zack Greinke deal occurred after I posted my list. Rogers ended up as the No. 1 guy in the organization but his season has been pretty bad. I was pretty much the only writer who wasn’t on the Scooter Gennett bandwagon and I’m actually still pretty happy about that. His season has been decent in high-A ball (.284/.323/.376) but he doesn’t hit for power or rack up the steals, whicj leaves him as an all-batting-average guy. He’s more of a utility player for me. Fellow 2010 draftees Nelson and Thornburg have really started to separate themselves. Nelson hasn’t done much in low-A while Thornburg pitched in the Futures Game. I’ve been a big fan of Morris since his prep days and was the only one to place him on the Brewers’ Top 10 list. He’s been a little too aggressive at the plate for my liking but he has a solid triple-slash line of .294/.320/.538 and has already tasted double-A.

smg58 Jul 13 2011 08:31 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

The PTBNL rule is that the players involved cannot stay in the same league as the one they were playing in. It's an odd rule whose rationale I can't figure out -- among other things, it means that an AL team could send us a major league PTBNL but an NL team can't. I guess we'll find out. K-Rod, like Wagner, will cost the Brewers $3.5M. He'd be a Type A if they offered him arbitration, but he'd be an awfully expensive setup guy. (I'm assuming Axford remains the closer at least until the option is no longer likely to vest.) My guess is we'll get a package like the one we got for Wagner.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2011 08:40 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

A quick perusal of a Brewers msg board indicates fear that the team could lose Thornberg or Peralta and an assumption they might be likely to lose: Gamel Farris Gindl Dennis Merklinger Katin Green Gennett Of those guys I'd only heard of Mat Gamel, he's been around for awhile and was recently farmed out. Dan Murphy type, decent bat, pretend fielder. I'm sure this is the kind of guy we wind up with anyhow.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 08:49 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

JCL: Comparing Gamel to Murphy might be an insult to Murphy. But, hell, Nelson Cruz was a post-hype guy, too. Cee: "Two random minor leaguers" are worth a lot more than you seem to value them, even if they're less winning-lotto-ticket and more reach-in-the-grab-bag. And if you're looking into in-season silver linings-- it's possible that Sandy just put a potential Philly playoff roadblock over the top.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 08:57 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Rodriguez was once somebody's lottery ticket.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 08:58 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: JCL: Comparing Gamel to Murphy might be an insult to Murphy. But, hell, Nelson Cruz was a post-hype guy, too. Cee: "Two random minor leaguers" are worth a lot more than you seem to value them, even if they're less winning-lotto-ticket and more reach-in-the-grab-bag. And if you're looking into in-season silver linings-- it's possible that Sandy just put a potential Philly playoff roadblock over the top. I'm not sure how that silver lining works out, are you suggesting the Braves beat out the PHillies and the Brewers take the WC? It's not so much that I'm dissing the value of those minor leaguers, I'd just like to know who they are, but I guess logistically might as well watch a crop of 10 or so and pick the best two a month or two down the road.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 09:00 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Send us your angry, live-armed, undervalued commodities, yearning to bounce back from terrible rookie-ball seasons. Hell, send us five. We'll make room.

Ashie62 Jul 13 2011 09:03 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

This deal was addition by subtraction. A monetary mathematical transaction.

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 09:03 AM Re: K-Rod Traded Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 13 2011 09:08 AM

Ceetar wrote: This is pure speculation? Who knows how thin the market was? Alderson knew, that's who. And he paid $5m just to get out from under that $17.5m option. So that tells you all you need to know about the thinness of the market. Look, no team in its right mind is going to take FRod on as a closer and be subject to that option... it's paralyzing, even for big market clubs. So that leaves a market of playoff-contending teams that HAVE a closer, who were looking for setup guy who they could use as a part-time closer, at most. And such teams would also have to have avoided F-Rod's 10-team "no-trade" list. Could've just released him too. Maybe paying 3.5 next year is worse than paying 5million this year (or really, paying nothing this year, since they were going to pay him that anyway) or maybe it's not. If we released him, it's my understanding (and correct me if i'm wrong here) that the team picking him up would only be obligated for the MLB minimum per year. The Mets would be liable for the ENTIRE contract, not just the $5m this year, and the $3.5m next year. So we'd still be on the hook for $17.5m in 2012 (less MLB minimum) if his option vested with another team. So, NO, releasing him was NOT a very good alternative. And this is without getting into 'mucking with his playing time' issues, which would've been really easy if the Mets fell out of it. Then you're paying 3.5 for some draft picks. And your also getting into litigation with the player's union, which the Mets may have won, or may not have. I'm not unhappy with the move, I just expected to get more than two random minor leaguers sometime in the future. Something more than a pure salary dump in early July. Then perhaps your expectations were out of line (quel supris!). With that 2012 contract albatross hanging around his neck, Frankie was never going to get back anything more than we got. I have confidence in Alderson to maximize our assets; he's not leaving anything on the table. But he just couldn't risk keeping KRod, and every other team in MLB knew it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 09:06 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: I'm not sure how that silver lining works out, are you suggesting the Braves beat out the PHillies and the Brewers take the WC? That's a current first-place Quaffmaking Crew you're talking about, sir. (Tied with the one run by the Souse.)

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 09:30 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Ceetar wrote: I'm not sure how that silver lining works out, are you suggesting the Braves beat out the PHillies and the Brewers take the WC? That's a current first-place Quaffmaking Crew you're talking about, sir. (Tied with the one run by the Souse.) Yes, I'm not sure how the Brewers getting better is a anti-Phillies move? Certainly doesn't make the Mets or Braves more likely to beat them. So the move is rated on the assumption that we trust Sandy Alderson blindly? Supposedly there were other, similar, offers or bites. I'm not going to make assumptions about how desperate Sandy was or what other possibilities were out there. I expect him to make this team better, and while jettisoning salary certainly raises the percentages he can do that next year, it's not quite next year is it? Perhaps there is more value on players to be named later, there probably is, but I don't think it was unreasonable to expect an actual player to be named now. That's how most trades go. I'm sure there will be additions to match this subtraction, because regardless of what fans think, it's too early for the _organization_ to write the season off. Maybe an analogy? I know I have to sell my old car to get a new car, but it's the new car that's exciting, not selling the old car that's done me well or even the window shopping for the new one.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2011 09:38 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: Yes, I'm not sure how the Brewers getting better is a anti-Phillies move? Certainly doesn't make the Mets or Braves more likely to beat them. Isn't it obvious? The implication is that it makes the Brewers more likely to beat the Phillies in a playoff series, thereby keeping them from the World Series.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 09:40 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: Yes, I'm not sure how the Brewers getting better is a anti-Phillies move? Certainly doesn't make the Mets or Braves more likely to beat them. It makes the Brewers more likely to beat them. Ceetar wrote: So the move is rated on the assumption that we trust Sandy Alderson blindly? No, it's rated on the assumption that Rodriguez was a white elephant of a commodity. A black white elephant. His salary was being wasted on him and we need it for wiser uses, like Jose Reyes. Ceetar wrote: Supposedly there were other, similar, offers or bites. I'm not going to make assumptions about how desperate Sandy was or what other possibilities were out there. Do you distrust him blindly? Ceetar wrote: I expect him to make this team better, and while jettisoning salary certainly raises the percentages he can do that next year, it's not quite next year is it? It's a tough call to weight today against tomorrow. But I think the Mets are more or less fine in the pen except when they're not. That's what I thought last week. Ceetar wrote: Perhaps there is more value on players to be named later, there probably is... There is. Ceetar wrote: ...but I don't think it was unreasonable to expect an actual player to be named now. I do. Maybe the better package is the one you wait on. Ceetar wrote: That's how most trades go. Some don't. I don't know how that makes this bad. Ceetar wrote: I'm sure there will be additions to match this subtraction... $$$! Ceetar wrote: ...because regardless of what fans think, it's too early for the _organization_ to write the season off. I don't know which fans you mean, but this isn't a write-off. Ceetar wrote: Maybe an analogy? I know I have to sell my old car to get a new car, but it's the new car that's exciting, not selling the old car that's done me well or even the window shopping for the new one. If my old car was costing me $653,846 every month, but wasn't getting me anywhere better or faster than a few other cars in my garage, I'd be pleased as punch that anybody gave me anything, because those payments are now back in my pocket and I can go shopping for more reasonably priced stuff. AWESOME!

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 09:43 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Ceetar wrote: Yes, I'm not sure how the Brewers getting better is a anti-Phillies move? Certainly doesn't make the Mets or Braves more likely to beat them. Isn't it obvious? The implication is that it makes the Brewers more likely to beat the Phillies in a playoff series, thereby keeping them from the World Series. Oh, guess I wasn't giving anyone an automatic bid yet. I wouldn't put the Phillies as favorites as it is anyway as it is, but can't hurt.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 09:49 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy, you missed my point. I just mean that while I get that this is a good thing, and I'm glad that they did it, I don't get exciting for 'possibilities'. I don't want to root for anyone to get traded, or celebrate it, even Frankie. 99.9% of my enjoyment comes from the actual team on the field, which is worse now, even if slightly. I know that there is now a somewhat higher percentage that my enjoyment will be heightened sometime in the future, but that doesn't mean I'm going to look at the trade today and feel good about it. That's just now how I enjoy baseball.

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 09:55 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Yes, I'm not sure how the Brewers getting better is a anti-Phillies move? Certainly doesn't make the Mets or Braves more likely to beat them. This ain't that complicated. Brewers better = Brewers more likely to beat Phillies in NL playoffs. Nothing short of a plane crash is keeping the Phils out of the playoffs altogether. So the move is rated on the assumption that we trust Sandy Alderson blindly? Supposedly there were other, similar, offers or bites. I'm not going to make assumptions about how desperate Sandy was or what other possibilities were out there. Not blindly; based on his history of success based on rationality. And yes, you are implicitly making assumptions about Sandy's desperation and other possiblities available when your "expectations" are not met. If there were other "similar" offers, then this deal was as good as the next one, no? I expect him to make this team better, and while jettisoning salary certainly raises the percentages he can do that next year, it's not quite next year is it? yeah, it is. You just don't realize it yet. We're a .500 team at the break, 3rd in our division behind the 2 best teams in the league, and 5th in the WC. Murphy and Turner have done an admirable job of picking up the slack for Davis and Wright, and Young/Gee have produced nearly as well as Santana would have been expected to at this point, given age/degree of decline. But Turner's injury has slowed him significantly, Gee has turned back into a pumpkin, Bay has shown flashes but is basically running in place, Pelfrey is a case study in mediocrity, and Reyes, our MVP, has yet another leg injury. It's Alderson's job not to be fooled by this fun bunch of overachievers and to look out for the long-term health of the franchise. Perhaps there is more value on players to be named later, there probably is, but I don't think it was unreasonable to expect an actual player to be named now. That's how most trades go. I'm sure there will be additions to match this subtraction, because regardless of what fans think, it's too early for the _organization_ to write the season off. If we can get better players later, then i'm happy to wait, and i'm glad "fan expectation" isn't the criteria being used for the deal. And replacing K-Rod with a group effort of Izzy/Parnell/Beato isn't quite the same as "writing the season off", now is it? Of course, you can sing that song once they deal Beltran (which they will do any day now), and i for one have no problem with them writing off a .500 team to set themselves up for the future. That would, at least, indicate a plan for the future... which would be a wonderful change of pace for this franchise. Maybe an analogy? I know I have to sell my old car to get a new car, but it's the new car that's exciting, not selling the old car that's done me well or even the window shopping for the new one. If the old car has a ticking time bomb strapped to the hood, maybe you'd be more excited about its departure rather than its trade-in value.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 09:57 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

sorry Vic, i stopped reading after "yes it is next year". talk to you next year then, i'm gonna watch baseball.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 13 2011 09:58 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I don' t know if I should be happy about the K-Rod trade. How's this helping to get rid of the Wilpons?

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 10:01 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: sorry Vic, i stopped reading after "yes it is next year". talk to you next year then, i'm gonna watch baseball. I'm going to watch baseball, too, because unlike you i don't have to delude myself with pennant hopes in order to enjoy watching a Mets game.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 10:03 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: Edgy, you missed my point. I thought I responded to each one of your points. Ceetar wrote: I just mean that while I get that this is a good thing, and I'm glad that they did it, I don't get exciting for 'possibilities'. You seem to be complaining about it, and speculating about better options that Alderson passed on, and lamenting the loss and the lack of birds in hand. Ceetar wrote: I don't want to root for anyone to get traded... Me. Ceetar wrote: or celebrate it Me. Ceetar wrote: even Frankie. Even Hebner! Ceetar wrote: 99.9% of my enjoyment comes from the actual team on the field Seriously, is this me posting? Ceetar wrote: which is worse now, even if slightly. That's debatable, but I get your point. But it would be arguably worse if anybody is traded with nobody immediately added to the team. GMs have to step back and make reasonable choices about the present and the future. We all understand this, no? Ceetar wrote: I know that there is now a somewhat higher percentage that my enjoyment will be heightened sometime in the future, but that doesn't mean I'm going to look at the trade today and feel good about it. That's just now how I enjoy baseball. Me neither. But that's the emotional argument. You're actually all over arguing not the immediate emotional downside, but the rational one. And it's not there. Look, I want trading a player without his permission to be outlawed. But that doesn't mean that, in a world where trading does exist, this is a bad one. Hey, maybe Jose Reyes is signed by this time tomorrow. The Mets owners started this season in an existential crisis. That they've been able to stay out of the offseason market, survive critical injuries, put a .500 team (or better?) on the field, shed crucial contracts, improved at the minor league level, barely retained control of the team, and put themselves back in the position where re-signing both Reyes and Wright is within the realm of reasonable hope? Minor fucking miracle. So far.

soupcan Jul 13 2011 10:03 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Vic Sage wrote: If we can get better players later, then i'm happy to wait, and i'm glad "fan expectation" isn't the criteria being used for the deal. And replacing K-Rod with a group effort of Izzy/Parnell/Beato isn't quite the same as "writing the season off", now is it? Of course, you can sing that song once they deal Beltran (which they will do any day now), and i for one have no problem with them writing off a .500 team to set themselves up for the future. That would, at least, indicate a plan for the future... which would be a wonderful change of pace for this franchise. And I for two have no problem with this either. Especially if it means I get 5-7 more years of number 7. Also - before the emergence of Paplebon in Boston, didn't Bill James do some sort of analysis and conclude that 'closer by committee' was equally successful to an actual closer? I do recall that the Red Sox tried it with poor results but I'd be curious to see how that strategy plays out with the Mets knowing that their is some statistcal back-up for it.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 10:10 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Maybe I'm all over the place. But I've felt all season that the impending doom of a firesale and losing Reyes (and Wright and the paint needed to paint "METS" behind home plate) was massively overstated. Maybe I should just pretend their is a direct relationship between trading K-Rod and resigning Reyes and focus on that. And this is K-Rod, who's just a reliever. I don't actually care that he's gone. Beltran's gonna hurt if it really does come to fruitition like seems inevitable.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 10:16 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I agree Beltran will hurt more, but he's got no contract for next year that we need to escape. So the pressure to shed him isn't nearly as acute, and there's no harm in waiting a week or two to see how things shake out. And it won't kill us to keep him. I don't think you need to pretend that there's a relationship between shedding Rodriguez and signing Reyes. There is.

attgig Jul 13 2011 10:18 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

http://twitter.com/#%21/Buster_ESPN/sta ... 3552832512 Sources: Right now, six and perhaps as many as seven teams indicating real interest in Carlos Beltran. if there really that many teams interested, maybe the return will make the pain more bearable.

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 10:25 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: I agree Beltran will hurt more, but he's got no contract for next year that we need to escape. So the pressure to shed him isn't nearly as acute, and there's no harm in waiting a week or two to see how things shake out. And it won't kill us to keep him. I don't think you need to pretend that there's a relationship between shedding Rodriguez and signing Reyes. There is. Agreed, mostly. But while it won't "kill us" to keep Beltran, there are "opportunity costs" involved in retaining him. If there are real prospects out there for the getting in the next few weeks, Alderson is obliged to maximize the team's assets. Holding onto Beltran to keep the fans with Ceetardian delusions happy (if there is no plan to resign him, with no ability to get draft picks if we don't) is exactly the kind of Wilponian decision-making i hope and expect Alderson to avoid.

soupcan Jul 13 2011 10:26 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

This Beltran thing sort of puzzles me. Why trade him? Will whatever they get back be that much better than the draft pick they'll get for compensation? Is a team really going to give up something substantial for him for only half a season? OE: Vic are you saying the Mets won't get draft picks if they don't sign him?

batmagadanleadoff Jul 13 2011 10:31 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

This Beltran thing sort of puzzles me.... OE: Vic are you saying the Mets won't get draft picks if they don't sign him? I believe that the Mets agreed not to offer Beltran arbitration at the end of his current contract, thus making it impossible for the Mets to receive compensatory draft picks should Beltran file for free agency and sign with another team.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 13 2011 10:33 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Vic Sage wrote: ... i don't have to delude myself with pennant hopes in order to enjoy watching a Mets game. Wow. About as profound as anything I've ever read here.

soupcan Jul 13 2011 10:34 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I believe that the Mets agreed not to offer Beltran arbitration at the end of his current contract, thus making it impossible for the Mets to receive compensatory draft picks should Beltran file for free agency and sign with another team. Ah ha! Well then - trade away Mr. Alderson, trade away!

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 10:48 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Vic Sage wrote: ... i don't have to delude myself with pennant hopes in order to enjoy watching a Mets game. Wow. About as profound as anything I've ever read here. not aiming at profundity. But as an atheist, i long ago gave up magical thinking and have come to appreciate life on its own terms without expecting any greater glory to justify any of it. I watch baseball for a variety of reasons, and investing in playoff hopes doesn't always have to be one of them. Otherwise, i'd have to either start skewing reality to justify my continuing interest or lose interest whenever post-season chances fade. Unwilling to do either, i've attempted to develop a greater understanding of the game itself, as an intellectual matter, and to appreciate its aesthetics for its own sake, and to share that understanding and appreciation with others... family, friends, the Pool.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 10:56 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Vic Sage wrote: ... to appreciate its aesthetics for its own sake... So simple, and yet so tricky and potentially fraught. That's what I've been going for with my fandom over the last couple of years, with mixed results (mostly success, or slouching toward it, anyway... with some "if we win three, we're IN this" backsliding).

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 11:03 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

want nothing and you can never be disappointed.

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 11:04 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Vic Sage wrote: want nothing and you can never be disappointed. you may now rub my belly for luck.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 11:35 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: I agree Beltran will hurt more, but he's got no contract for next year that we need to escape. So the pressure to shed him isn't nearly as acute, and there's no harm in waiting a week or two to see how things shake out. And it won't kill us to keep him. I don't think you need to pretend that there's a relationship between shedding Rodriguez and signing Reyes. There is. Of course there's a relationship between every single transaction. But it's never been a K-Rod or Reyes situation. It was never that he had to trade him to sign Reyes, or itw ouldn't happen, or that Reyes couldn't decide to leave anyway, regardless of K-Rod. Reyes being resigned is going to be the result of a ton of different things, and freeing up payroll with Frankie is one small indirect part of it. As for Beltran, there are multiple issues. 1The agreement not to offer him arbitration, making it seem 'wasteful' to many if they let him go and get nothing next year besides the 5+ million dollars they'll still owe him regardless. However, Beltran, especially before Wright and Reyes return, has a much greater impact on the revenue of this team in August and September. Those draft picks are also part of the 'incentive' to the team that would acquire him. Teams may be willing to give up prospects for a rental if they think they're getting similar prospects via draft. The rumor about not getting compensation the same way next year based on a renegotiated CBA. I haven't heard this mentioned much lately, but presumably the people involved in labor negotiations have some thoughts on which way this will go. I don't know how much opposing GMs value 'clutch', but Beltran's 1.3 playoff OPS in 22 games is certainly pretty looking. No-trade. Beltran's experienced playoff races, and playing out the string. I don't know that he'sl ooking to go to he Pirates, or some other 'fringe' playoff team.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 11:54 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Of course there's a relationship between every single transaction. But it's never been a K-Rod or Reyes situation. It was never that he had to trade him to sign Reyes, or itw ouldn't happen, or that Reyes couldn't decide to leave anyway, regardless of K-Rod. Reyes being resigned is going to be the result of a ton of different things, and freeing up payroll with Frankie is one small indirect part of it. Seems pretty large to me. $17.5 million large.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 11:56 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: Of course there's a relationship between every single transaction. But it's never been a K-Rod or Reyes situation. It was never that he had to trade him to sign Reyes, or itw ouldn't happen, or that Reyes couldn't decide to leave anyway, regardless of K-Rod. Reyes being resigned is going to be the result of a ton of different things, and freeing up payroll with Frankie is one small indirect part of it. Seems pretty large to me. $17.5 million large. It's one of many factors. Only Sandy/Fred really know how large. It's not like Sandy hasn't stated they could sign Reyes next season, regardless.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 11:58 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

We all know. It's $17.5 million large. That's exactly how large it is.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 12:03 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: We all know. It's $17.5 million large. That's exactly how large it is. you're mincing words. Only Sandy knows how important it was, and how much that large pile of $5 bills was going to affect his ability to sign Reyes.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2011 12:07 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I hear that my neighbor won $17.5 million in the lottery. I say, "Sure, that's a lot of money, but only he knows exactly how much."

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 12:08 PM Re: K-Rod Traded Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 13 2011 12:09 PM

And even then... will he really know, until he's on his deathbed, reflecting on his life? Will he REALLY really know, even then? I say, God only knows. And since I don't believe in God, nobody. Nobody knows. It's like Tootsie Pops that way.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 12:09 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

And only he knows what he's going to spend it on. I don't think it's mincing words at all. That money has a tremendous real world value expressed in dollars or win shares or what have you. It's worth more as potential in pocket than it is invested in Rodriguez. I don't get this default to "only Sandy knows" over and over. Good is good and bad is bad. Are you contending that good is bad because we're only going to make a worse investment with it? Because chances are huge we won't.

metsmarathon Jul 13 2011 12:14 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: Of course there's a relationship between every single transaction. But it's never been a K-Rod or Reyes situation. It was never that he had to trade him to sign Reyes, or itw ouldn't happen, or that Reyes couldn't decide to leave anyway, regardless of K-Rod. i really wish you would not go back to this line of thinking. of course it is possible that the mets could have retained both krod and reyes. but the real issue is that if krod were to have gotten his $17.5M, then there would be exactly that much less of the total available budget to spend on other areas. and those other areas includes jose reyes. without krod, there is suddenly $17.5M to spend on, among other things, jose reyes. the only way this is not the case is if you believe that the mets budget would increase by $17.5M if they had to pay for krod, but otherwise would be $17.5M lower. that they would pursue the same players with the same contractual offers regardless of his presence. since we're doing analogies, lets pretend you're remodeling your bathroom. you have a pot of money available to spend on the project. one contractor offers to do the job on the cheap, but is including a solid shower stall, which increases the total cost of the project by some 20%. now, if you don't have that extra 20%, you can get him to substitute the golden shower for a cheaper plastic model for a few hundred. but if you do have the budget to afford the golden shower, wouldn't you want to spend that extra cost on better cabinets and tile? maybe if you have a whole ton of money, you can get the upgraded cabinets and tile as well as the gold stall, i guess. but as long as you can afford to pay for the solid gold shower stall, you can almost certainly spend that money more wisely. like a towel warmer, or radiant heat in the floor, or a solid gold toilet. frankie rodriguez is that golden shower. he might've kept us from getting nice tile or a sturdy vanity, or maybe he would've kept us from getting a toasty towel or warm feet, but he would've kept us from getting something, even if that something is a golden shitter.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 12:20 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

"What's this about a golden shitter? How much doyouwan for this golden shitter, exactly? When would I have to say 'yes'... youknowifIwassinterested?"

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 12:24 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

No, no. This is the takeaway: frankie rodriguez is that golden shower.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 12:27 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I don't see why you're insistant on extrapolating on what I'm saying. All I'm saying is this news does not mean "yay, now we get Reyes!" We could still not get him. We could've gotten him anyway. It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. (If you need an example, What if last year the Yankees had decided not to spend the 15mill on Mariano and had used it to sign Feliciano and Soriano? Not quite teh same as they're all relievers, but the guy you spend the money on could be Mo Vaughn or just trip and break his leg for that matter) The percentages suggest it's much much more likely. But that's all a GM really controls, percentages. (Paraphrasing Sandy here) The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. It's merely a good financial decision, but in terms of how I feel about the team in general, at this moment, it's hardly more than buying an energy efficient refridgerator. Sure, that money saved probably allows me to keep Netflix even with the price going up, but the fridge could still end up causing brown outs or end up being a faulty model.

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 12:30 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

soupcan Jul 13 2011 12:32 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Why would you blame the brown-out on the energy efficient fridge? It's much more likely to be your wife's blow dryer.

SteveJRogers Jul 13 2011 12:32 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

seawolf17 wrote: [idiot wfan caller] I think the two PTBNLs should be Fielder and Braun. [/idiot wfan caller] I need to interject my favorite example of idiot sports radio speculation about a PTBNL, and this one comes from a host on WEEI in Boston on the day David Cone was traded to the Blue Jays. Guy thought that there actually could have been a possibility Cone was to be Harry Chitied back to the Mets.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 12:33 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Wait, but what if they have fireworks at the Parnell press conference later? Wait wait... INDOOR fireworks! Excited yet, or ar-- Ceetar wrote: It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. /Head explodes

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 12:33 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

soupcan wrote: Why would you blame the brown-out on the energy efficient fridge? It's much more likely to be your wife's blow dryer. more likely the extremely faulty wine fridge that only keeps temp in one section and needs to be WD40d every other month at least. I'll let you decide which player the wine fridge is.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 12:35 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Wait, but what if they have fireworks at the Parnell press conference later? Wait wait... INDOOR fireworks! Excited yet, or ar-- Ceetar wrote: It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. /Head explodes It's just not. potential value is not value. I repeat, what if that money gets spend on someone who has a 2011 season like Santana? Even smart GMs sometimes sign bad guys, or guys get injured. You obviously would rather take the chance with it over the ceiling Frankie provides, but stop speaking absolutes, because that's not how it works.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 12:35 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: I don't see why you're insistant on extrapolating on what I'm saying. All I'm saying is this news does not mean "yay, now we get Reyes!" We could still not get him. We could've gotten him anyway. It means it's $17.5 million dollars more likely. That's how the game works. It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. It so totally is. Ceetar wrote: (If you need an example, What if last year the Yankees had decided not to spend the 15mill on Mariano and had used it to sign Feliciano and Soriano? Are you contending that good is bad because we're only going to make a worse investment with it? Because chances are huge we won't. I guess you are. Yes, the Mets, despite the huge amount of better things to do with the money, could still mis-spend it, out of bad luck or poor wisdom. But this isn't optimism. At all. And if you think that a team shouldn't avoid tremendously bad investments because they're only going to find worse ones, then you shouldn't be a GM. K-Rod (God forbid) could die in a car wreck just as easy as the guy they otherwise sign. That risk is on both sides of the equation, for God's sake. Ceetar wrote: The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. Is it the emotional argument or the logical one you're going to stick to, because you keep conceding the latter to return to the former only to re-assert the latter.

soupcan Jul 13 2011 12:37 PM Re: K-Rod Traded Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 13 2011 12:40 PM

Ceetar wrote: more likely the extremely faulty wine fridge that only keeps temp in one section and needs to be WD40d every other month at least. I'll let you decide which player the wine fridge is. Well now you're just changing your statement. A faulty wine fridge is certainly not energy efficient and therefore your point is moot. Buying it would not be a good financial decision.

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 12:39 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

soupcan wrote: A faulty wine fridge is certainly not energy efficient and therefore your point is moot. Buying it would not be a good financial decision.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 12:40 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Cars or toilets or fridges. We've narrowed this down to one point. What we're talking about is hard goods.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2011 12:41 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Wait, but what if they have fireworks at the Parnell press conference later? Wait wait... INDOOR fireworks! Excited yet, or ar-- Ceetar wrote: It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. /Head explodes Yes instead of trading him we should have re-upped him at $22 million. No, $22 billion.

soupcan Jul 13 2011 12:41 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I thought that was David Cone for a second.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 12:43 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Wait, but what if they have fireworks at the Parnell press conference later? Wait wait... INDOOR fireworks! Excited yet, or ar-- Ceetar wrote: It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. /Head explodes Yes instead of trading him we should have re-upped him at $22 million. No, $22 billion. Well, but hold on-- if you'd been a little more patient, you could have spent that $22 billion bailing out Italy unconditionally, or attempting to relaunch New Coke worldwide. YOU NEVER KNOW.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 12:44 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: Yes, the Mets, despite the huge amount of better things to do with the money, could still mis-spend it, out of bad luck or poor wisdom. But this isn't optimism. At all. And if you think that a team shouldn't avoid tremendously bad investments because they're only going to find worse ones, then you shouldn't be a GM. K-Rod (God forbid) could die in a car wreck just as easy as the guy they otherwise sign. That risk is on both sides of the equation, for God's sake. Ceetar wrote: The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. Is it the emotional argument or the logical one you're going to stick to, because you keep conceding the latter to return to the former only to re-assert the latter. I'm really not sure I'm _arguing_ anything. I'm confessing and opinion that I don't find this anything to get excited about. Yes, their is risk on both sides of the equation. But I'm not going to get excited about the unknown one merely on a pile of cash that may or may not be used. And really, this has nothing to do with Rodriguez. The Mets no longer have him. It's over. I'm not overly excited about the Mets ability to spend 40 million instead of 30, or however it ultimately works out. If the Mets bring in a pitcher, say Kuroda, as the first name off the top of my head, and I think he can help, I'm not going to be less excited about it if he makes 9 million instead of 6. When Sandy Alderson selects a player from the Brewers, and I can look him up and think "Hey, maybe that guy could get some people out with that curve ball!" I'll get excited about it.

Centerfield Jul 13 2011 12:45 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I can't believe there is any discord on this move. Moving K-Rod is a no-brainer. We should all be happy about this. It makes us marginally worse this year, but it makes us much, much better next year. For what it's worth, I can see where ceetar is coming from. Every once in a while, I catch myself thinking "Wow, they win this series, then get Reyes, Wright, Davis and Santana back, maybe we go on a run and Beltran gets that ring as a Met that he deserves..." But then I catch myself, and realize this is silly. Sandy Alderson was brought here to be smart. And this is a smart move. Moving Beltran will also be a smart move, but it's one I will have a hard time with. Beltran is a terrific player and one of my favorite Mets of all time. I'll be very sorry to see him go, even if it's best for the team.

seawolf17 Jul 13 2011 12:46 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

This is my new favorite thread.

metirish Jul 13 2011 12:47 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

seawolf17 wrote: This is my new favorite thread. Was just going to post this.........

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 12:48 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Centerfield wrote: I can't believe there is any discord on this move. Moving K-Rod is a no-brainer. We should all be happy about this. It makes us marginally worse this year, but it makes us much, much better next year. For what it's worth, I can see where ceetar is coming from. Every once in a while, I catch myself thinking "Wow, they win this series, then get Reyes, Wright, Davis and Santana back, maybe we go on a run and Beltran gets that ring as a Met that he deserves..." But then I catch myself, and realize this is silly. Sandy Alderson was brought here to be smart. And this is a smart move. Moving Beltran will also be a smart move, but it's one I will have a hard time with. Beltran is a terrific player and one of my favorite Mets of all time. I'll be very sorry to see him go, even if it's best for the team. This. Very much, this.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2011 12:49 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

What I like most about today is the rediscovery of how nice surprises are when you trust the men/women in charge.

metsmarathon Jul 13 2011 12:49 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. to be clear: the mets farm system is loaded with nothing more than the possibility that the mets will be better in the future. would you favor trading away any and all players we have in our farm system for short term improvements to the current team, and repeating that strategy ad infinitum? that this trade only improves the probability that the mets will be better in the future than they would have been had the trade not been made makes me very much excited indeed. for this team they currently have. because now this season can be something to build upon. because this season is no longer an out of control train careening towards a hard stop at the end of the line. a hand is on the brakes and they're laying new track fast. a dark cloud has lifted, and the future is what sandy can make of it, not any longer just what omar had left for him.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 12:50 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: Yes, the Mets, despite the huge amount of better things to do with the money, could still mis-spend it, out of bad luck or poor wisdom. But this isn't optimism. At all. And if you think that a team shouldn't avoid tremendously bad investments because they're only going to find worse ones, then you shouldn't be a GM. K-Rod (God forbid) could die in a car wreck just as easy as the guy they otherwise sign. That risk is on both sides of the equation, for God's sake. Ceetar wrote: The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. Is it the emotional argument or the logical one you're going to stick to, because you keep conceding the latter to return to the former only to re-assert the latter. I'm really not sure I'm _arguing_ anything. I'm confessing and opinion that I don't find this anything to get excited about. Yes, their is risk on both sides of the equation. But I'm not going to get excited about the unknown one merely on a pile of cash that may or may not be used. And really, this has nothing to do with Rodriguez. The Mets no longer have him. It's over. I'm not overly excited about the Mets ability to spend 40 million instead of 30, or however it ultimately works out. If the Mets bring in a pitcher, say Kuroda, as the first name off the top of my head, and I think he can help, I'm not going to be less excited about it if he makes 9 million instead of 6. When Sandy Alderson selects a player from the Brewers, and I can look him up and think "Hey, maybe that guy could get some people out with that curve ball!" I'll get excited about it. Thus the return to the emotional argument when the rational one is unsustainable. And I'm here to remind you that the 2011 Mets will be fine. They may finish in the money, and they may finish out, but the difference is so totally unlikely be to be presence of Francisco Rodriguez that you needn't trouble your sleep. I'd say it's more likely that the sudden available funds and the emotional eruption that comes from a newly signed Reyes (to be announce within 18 hours) is what put them over the top.

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 12:54 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. I find it very exciting. I like seeing the Mets get better.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 12:55 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. to be clear: the mets farm system is loaded with nothing more than the possibility that the mets will be better in the future. The Mets major league team is loaded with nothing more than the possibility that the Mets will be better in the future. Every event is merely a potential event until it happens. Every ball is unstruck until it is struck. Every dollar is an abstraction until it is spent. The GM's job is to measure that potential for greatness and meaning, and to stock the organization with greater potential with more meaning. The players still win the game, this year and next. The GM just tries to put the best resources in the best position. But I promise you that K-Rod won't be the difference.

metirish Jul 13 2011 01:00 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I think this thread should be shipped of to CERN for the answer. http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/lhc/lhc-en.html

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 01:02 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: Thus the return to the emotional argument when the rational one is unsustainable. And I'm here to remind you that the 2011 Mets will be fine. They may finish in the money, and they may finish out, but the difference is so totally unlikely be to be presence of Francisco Rodriguez that you needn't trouble your sleep. I'd say it's more likely that the sudden available funds and the emotional eruption that comes from a newly signed Reyes (to be announce within 18 hours) is what put them over the top. If I changed course and talked rational argument it's because someone misinterpreted my statements. All I've ever meant to say is the emotional one. I doubt Reyes is resigned until the Einhorn deal is finalized, which I doubt happens while he's in Vegas. I expected Frankie to get traded, or at least his option to be avoided in some way, since the season started. The only surprise on my part is that it happened last night instead of a week or two from now. I'm not the GM, I'm not trying to analyze trades like one. I'm not even disagreeing, I'm merely not excited about the sudden influx of cash. Or anymore excited than I was planning to be this offseason anyway. But that's it, I get caught up in the resign-Reyes stuff because he's freaking awesome and is and should be a Mets legend, but really I'm not going to get excited about the offseason until it's upon us. Belief in a playoff berth or not, to start dividing up the salaries towards some sort of future acquisition is writing off this season as uninteresting and not worth watching. It's baseball, it's back in two days. I watch Spring Training games and the All-Star game, I was at the last game of 2009 , it's not like i'm only invested in these season for some diamond in the rough Santana as a 5-game winner savior in September hope.

seawolf17 Jul 13 2011 01:02 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: Every ball is unstruck until it is struck. Whoa. /head explodes CF is right. As usual.

Frayed Knot Jul 13 2011 01:16 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

seawolf17 wrote: This is my new favorite thread. And part of what makes it good is that the thread starter opted NOT to put it in some all-purpose-shit-that-happens-during-the-trading-deadline-season thread.

Number 6 Jul 13 2011 01:17 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

frankie rodriguez is that golden shower.

Ashie62 Jul 13 2011 02:12 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: I don't see why you're insistant on extrapolating on what I'm saying. All I'm saying is this news does not mean "yay, now we get Reyes!" We could still not get him. We could've gotten him anyway. It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. (If you need an example, What if last year the Yankees had decided not to spend the 15mill on Mariano and had used it to sign Feliciano and Soriano? Not quite teh same as they're all relievers, but the guy you spend the money on could be Mo Vaughn or just trip and break his leg for that matter) The percentages suggest it's much much more likely. But that's all a GM really controls, percentages. (Paraphrasing Sandy here) The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. It's merely a good financial decision, but in terms of how I feel about the team in general, at this moment, it's hardly more than buying an energy efficient refridgerator. Sure, that money saved probably allows me to keep Netflix even with the price going up, but the fridge could still end up causing brown outs or end up being a faulty model. Sitting back with legs up waiting for Ceetar to start therapy. Cmon dude...Players come and go. Don't torture yourself..

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 02:14 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ashie62 wrote: Ceetar wrote: I don't see why you're insistant on extrapolating on what I'm saying. All I'm saying is this news does not mean "yay, now we get Reyes!" We could still not get him. We could've gotten him anyway. It's also not a given that the 17.5 is more value than K-Rod provides. (If you need an example, What if last year the Yankees had decided not to spend the 15mill on Mariano and had used it to sign Feliciano and Soriano? Not quite teh same as they're all relievers, but the guy you spend the money on could be Mo Vaughn or just trip and break his leg for that matter) The percentages suggest it's much much more likely. But that's all a GM really controls, percentages. (Paraphrasing Sandy here) The almost certain probability that this ultimately makes the Mets better in the long run is not exciting. It's merely a good financial decision, but in terms of how I feel about the team in general, at this moment, it's hardly more than buying an energy efficient refridgerator. Sure, that money saved probably allows me to keep Netflix even with the price going up, but the fridge could still end up causing brown outs or end up being a faulty model. Sitting back with legs up waiting for Ceetar to start therapy. Cmon dude...Players come and go. Don't torture yourself.. The only thing torturing me is the 51 hours until Mets baseball. I'm not excited about offseason fiduciary concerns, but i'm extremely excited for the next 70+ Mets baseball games.

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 02:24 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

i hereby renounce my title as TiTTS founder, and pass the crown to the Cee-man. Remember to uphold the TiTTS with pride.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 02:32 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Vic Sage wrote: i hereby renounce my title as TiTTS founder, and pass the crown to the Cee-man. Remember to uphold the TiTTS with pride. Last time I did that my wife hit me. what are we talking about?

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 02:43 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

TiTTs = Trade in Tomorrow Today Society Wanting to trade tomorrows stars for stars today because, damn it, we're a big market team and prospects take to damn long. The premise is basically that the possible production of future stars is outweighed by the actual production of current stars. http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/3400/f1_t3455.shtml

Vic Sage Jul 13 2011 02:53 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I can't believe there is any discord on this move. there really isn't very much discord here, other than Ceetar's "lack of excitement." Ceetar wrote: ...I'm not going to get excited about the offseason until it's upon us. Belief in a playoff berth or not, to start dividing up the salaries towards some sort of future acquisition is writing off this season as uninteresting and not worth watching. It's baseball, it's back in two days. This is a fallacy of false alternatives. You can be as excited as you want about baseball's imminent return; how does that in any way limit your ability to appreciate your team's management making a move that improves their chances for the future? Your excitement for baseball THIS year drives out appreciation about improving our chances for NEXT year? I don't believe that's true, and I don't think you do either. It seems to me that you just obviously feel that the minimal difference between K-Rod's potential performance through the balance of this season (over Izzy/Parnell/Beato, or whomever gets those KRod innings) is the difference in us making a post-season run, or the $17.5m option is not really an issue for next year's team, because their payroll is (or should be) unlimited. You may call that "optimism", but I call that the kind of magical thinking that sets an organization up to fail indefinitely.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 03:09 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I think it's fairly clear that I'm unable to fully articulate what I'm try to say here. But most of my focus is on the here and now, on this season. It's not some decade long picture where I focus on the entire organizational direction towards some grand goal down the road of playoffs every year and winning 6 championships to tie the "Subway Series Race" or whatever, though that'd be nice. It's this season, this individual race, or non-race, or whatever you want to call it. It's not that my 'excitement' for payroll flexibility is limited. but it's just that, flexibility. No telling how much Alderson bends yet. There are endless, boring months where the Islanders will put up loss after loss and my twitter feed will be filled with boring Jets fans to discuss the relatives merits of various free agent pick ups and how theycould fit into the 2012+ Mets. This was inevitable. And there will be others, including resigning Reyes and arbriration raises and maybe guys they let go that affect that line. But today to me is just a step for next year, and i never had any doubt taht Sandy was going to let that option cripple him. It's no more exciting than releasing Perez or Castillo was (and I know many of you disagree with me on that one too). Their money comes off the books next year too, and is a bigger (combined anyway) part of the picture. I expected something a little more tangible out of a trade. Trades and injuries and i'd like to see something nice added to the team for once instaed of Manny Acosta.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 04:47 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

That last line is kind of particuarly unfair --- to the team, to us, and to Manny Acosta. I don't get the hangup. He's pitched 12 innings this year.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 04:54 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: That last line is kind of particuarly unfair --- to the team, to us, and to Manny Acosta. I don't get the hangup. He's pitched 12 innings this year. bad innings. and he's slated for more. What, I'm not allowed to think a particular reliever is particularly bad?

metirish Jul 13 2011 05:02 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I for one thought you would be optimistic on Acosta, perhaps now he will get more innings and improve as they build.

seawolf17 Jul 13 2011 05:06 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I think we're all on more or less the same page here, no? Ceetar's just saying that he's reserving judgment on the baseballiness of this trade right now, and I think that's reasonable. Realistically, a guy with experience and success in high-leverage situations is out of our bullpen for Friday without an obviously specific replacement; on the other hand, we gain what appears to be a great deal of payroll flexibility, which, from everything we've heard and read, should be a very positive thing for the organization as they go forward, for the rest of this year and/or plan for 2012 and beyond.

metirish Jul 13 2011 05:12 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar's not taking the piss? Kidding, K-Rod has given rise to some great discussion since he got here.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2011 05:13 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: That last line is kind of particuarly unfair --- to the team, to us, and to Manny Acosta. I don't get the hangup. He's pitched 12 innings this year. bad innings. and he's slated for more. What, I'm not allowed to think a particular reliever is particularly bad? Now, you're just being a martyr. You're allowed to think whatever you want. And we're allowed to respectfully criticize it. Come on. Do I really need to list everything and everyone --- good, bad, and indifferent --- that has been added to the team besides Manny Acosta? It's a completely unfair and unbecoming assertion.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 05:17 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

metirish wrote: Ceetar's not taking the piss? Kidding, K-Rod has given rise to some great discussion since he got here. I think we've already established I don't want a golden shower. So, what are our picks for roster replacement? Probably between Igarashi, O'Connor and Thayer given 40man status? Igarashi has a .087 ERA with a nice K/9 rate..

bmfc1 Jul 13 2011 05:18 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Tweets say it's Igarashi.

metirish Jul 13 2011 06:18 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Melvin says Axford and Rodriguez will share closer duties.

G-Fafif Jul 13 2011 07:01 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Melvin says Axford and Rodriguez will share closer duties. John Axford was the closer for the Milwaukee Brewers. When the phone rang, he knew it was for him. JOHN AXFORD LOUNGING IN BREWER BULLPEN AS PHONE RINGS. AX: Hey, I got this. But Francisco Rodriguez was one of the game's most celebrated closers. When the phone rang... FRANCISCO RODRIGUEZ LOUNGING IN MET BULLPEN AS PHONE RINGS. K-ROD: Hey, I got this. Then one day, Francisco Rodriguez was traded to Milwaukee. JOHN AXFORD AND FRANCISCO RODRIGUEZ LOUNGING IN BREWER BULLPEN AS PHONE RINGS. AX & K-ROD TOGETHER: Hey, I got this. AXFORD AND RODRIGUEZ TURN AND STARE AT EACH OTHER. AX & K-ROD TOGETHER: I said I got this! MILLER PARK PA ANNOUNCER: Now pitching for the Milwaukee Brewers...uh... JONATHAN LUCROY: HUH? BOB UECKER: Say, there's something you don't see every day -- two closers on one mound! Looks like the Brew Crew is gonna hafta get six outs here in the ninth. AXFORD AND RODRIGUEZ EACH GO INTO THEIR WINDUPS. ANGEL HERNANDEZ: Strike! Ball! MATT HOLLIDAY STARES IN DISBELIEF. HOLLIDAY: Man, you really are a bad umpire. DOUG MELVIN IN THE PRESS BOX, TURNS TO UECKER. MELVIN: This only counts as half-an-appearance for Rodriguez, right? UECKER: Just a bit unorthodox. Learn what happens when two closers from different worlds try to share one job...and end up sharing each other's hearts. Will Ferrell is John Axford. "I'm the closer around here. Why don't you set me up with a beer?" John Leguizamo is Francisco Rodriguez. "You're lucky I underwent court-mandated anger management or I'd treat you like a member of my family!" Ray Romano is Ron Roenicke. "Fellas, c'mon. You can't both have balls. Wait, that's not what I meant." And Bob Uecker as himself. "Ax strikes 'em out! But K-Rod gives up the grand slam. It's a single-game split for the Brewers here at Miller Park." Ax & Rod...coming this July to a theater near you. AX: Save isn't the only thing you're blowing, buddy. ROD: You wish. Rated PG-13

Fman99 Jul 13 2011 07:08 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

soupcan wrote: metsmarathon wrote: we had no leverage. plus, we just got $17.5M for next year. that seems like plenty. Agreed. The biggest thing to me is that with Frankie gone and Beltran coming off the books, there is plenty o' do-re-mi to sign a really good shortstop. No excuses now. First, best thing I thought when hearing of this trade.

smg58 Jul 13 2011 07:15 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Show me a team that has two closers and I'll show you a team that has none. Roenicke needed to make a definitive decision so that the move helps the team more than it hurts, and it appears he's done the opposite of that.

Ceetar Jul 13 2011 07:28 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

smg58 wrote: Show me a team that has two closers and I'll show you a team that has none. Roenicke needed to make a definitive decision so that the move helps the team more than it hurts, and it appears he's done the opposite of that. Why do you think Girardi wished Soriano into the cornfield?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2011 09:02 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Melvin says Axford and Rodriguez will share closer duties. John Axford was the closer for the Milwaukee Brewers. When the phone rang, he knew it was for him. JOHN AXFORD LOUNGING IN BREWER BULLPEN AS PHONE RINGS. AX: Hey, I got this. But Francisco Rodriguez was one of the game's most celebrated closers. When the phone rang... FRANCISCO RODRIGUEZ LOUNGING IN MET BULLPEN AS PHONE RINGS. K-ROD: Hey, I got this. Then one day, Francisco Rodriguez was traded to Milwaukee. JOHN AXFORD AND FRANCISCO RODRIGUEZ LOUNGING IN BREWER BULLPEN AS PHONE RINGS. AX & K-ROD TOGETHER: Hey, I got this. AXFORD AND RODRIGUEZ TURN AND STARE AT EACH OTHER. AX & K-ROD TOGETHER: I said I got this! MILLER PARK PA ANNOUNCER: Now pitching for the Milwaukee Brewers...uh... JONATHAN LUCROY: HUH? BOB UECKER: Say, there's something you don't see every day -- two closers on one mound! Looks like the Brew Crew is gonna hafta get six outs here in the ninth. AXFORD AND RODRIGUEZ EACH GO INTO THEIR WINDUPS. ANGEL HERNANDEZ: Strike! Ball! MATT HOLLIDAY STARES IN DISBELIEF. HOLLIDAY: Man, you really are a bad umpire. DOUG MELVIN IN THE PRESS BOX, TURNS TO UECKER. MELVIN: This only counts as half-an-appearance for Rodriguez, right? UECKER: Just a bit unorthodox. Learn what happens when two closers from different worlds try to share one job...and end up sharing each other's hearts. Will Ferrell is John Axford. "I'm the closer around here. Why don't you set me up with a beer?" John Leguizamo is Francisco Rodriguez. "You're lucky I underwent court-mandated anger management or I'd treat you like a member of my family!" Ray Romano is Ron Roenicke. "Fellas, c'mon. You can't both have balls. Wait, that's not what I meant." And Bob Uecker as himself. "Ax strikes 'em out! But K-Rod gives up the grand slam. It's a single-game split for the Brewers here at Miller Park." Ax & Rod...coming this July to a theater near you. AX: Save isn't the only thing you're blowing, buddy. ROD: You wish. Rated PG-13 I'd totally wait for it to come out on DVD, but I'd eat it up then.

TransMonk Jul 13 2011 09:08 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

soupcan wrote: The biggest thing to me is that with Frankie gone and Beltran coming off the books, there is plenty o' do-re-mi to sign a really good shortstop. No excuses now. I can still find excuses for that seventh year that we are going to have to offer. But, I guess we can cross 2018 when we come to it.

MFS62 Jul 13 2011 09:31 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

smg58 wrote: Show me a team that has two closers and I'll show you a team that has none. '86 Mets - McDowell and Orosco - both had 20 (or more) saves. Later

smg58 Jul 13 2011 09:47 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

A different era. Neither of them had the ego that Rodriguez has, and they had a manager who wouldn't stand for it if they did. Plus the matchups generally dictated who got used when, while Rodriguez and Axford are basically the same pitcher (righthanded, high K and high BB). Roenicke will have to decide between keeping both pitchers happy (assuming that's even possible) and keeping the controversy from becoming a distraction.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 14 2011 04:20 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

smg58 wrote: Show me a team that has two closers and I'll show you a team that has none. Roenicke needed to make a definitive decision so that the move helps the team more than it hurts, and it appears he's done the opposite of that. I don't think that's true. I know "times have changed" but having two closers worked out when they were named Orosco and McDowell, or McGraw and Frisella. And it would have worked for Franco and Benitez too.

Edgy MD Jul 14 2011 04:44 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I would think so, and yet a strong willed manager like Valentine didn't think it worth it.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 14 2011 06:56 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

According to the New York Times this morning, Rodriguez's original agent never got around to submitting the list of ten teams to which Frankie could reject a trade, which meant that the Mets could have traded him anywhere. However, they expected that Scott Boras would soon get that list submitted, and he'd have the advantage of selecting the teams based on the current landscape, which would have made trading Frankie very difficult. (Boras, of course, would want some compensation for waiving the trade veto.) So Sandy decided he needed to act quickly. Getting out from under that $17.5 million obligation was paramount. The Brewers gave the Mets a list of five prospects. The Mets will scout them aggressively over the next couple of weeks and then choose two of them.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 14 2011 07:18 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Interesting.

duan Jul 14 2011 07:19 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

and if I'm K-Rod I'm suing my former agent for the difference between what I get next year & 17.5 million.

seawolf17 Jul 14 2011 07:20 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Boras: "So, Sandy. Just calling to let you know that we've got that list of ten teams just about narrowed down for you, heh heh." Sandy: "Yeah, about that..."

batmagadanleadoff Jul 14 2011 07:46 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Benjamin Grimm wrote: According to the New York Times this morning, Rodriguez's original agent never got around to submitting the list of ten teams to which Frankie could reject a trade, which meant that the Mets could have traded him anywhere. However, they expected that Scott Boras would soon get that list submitted, and he'd have the advantage of selecting the teams based on the current landscape, which would have made trading Frankie very difficult. (Boras, of course, would want some compensation for waiving the trade veto.) So Sandy decided he needed to act quickly. Getting out from under that $17.5 million obligation was paramount. The Brewers gave the Mets a list of five prospects. The Mets will scout them aggressively over the next couple of weeks and then choose two of them. I'm speculating here, but this line in the NYT article: The Mets thought that once Boras assumed representation, he would scrutinize Rodriguez’s contract and either try to submit a list or perhaps file a grievance that might allow him to do so. suggests that team K-Rod might have waived or forfeited their right to designate their 10 teams by not doing so in timely fashion. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/sport ... power.html OTOH, if that right was forfeited, then there would've been no rush on the Mets part to trade K-Rod. But OTOH maybe the Mets just in cased it to be safe.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 14 2011 07:53 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

batmagadanleadoff wrote: But OTOH maybe the Mets just in cased it to be safe. That's what I think happened.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 14 2011 07:54 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

However, [the Mets] expected that Scott Boras would soon get that list submitted But then OTOH, that line is inconsistent with team K-Rod forfeiting its right to submit a 10 team list. It ain't easy to interpret a contract without the actual contract itself to read.

Ceetar Jul 14 2011 07:58 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

seawolf17 wrote: Boras: "So, Sandy. Just calling to let you know that we've got that list of ten teams just about narrowed down for you, heh heh." Sandy: "Yeah, about that..." One day, I hope someone writes a book about this guy and the behind the scenes stuff. Bet there's some rather intriguing maneuverings going on, much like this.

TransMonk Jul 14 2011 07:58 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Have Boras or K-Rod actually bitched about any of this? Joe Petruccio's take:

soupcan Jul 14 2011 08:02 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Taking into account Boras' history as a knowledgable, wiley agent, they figured he find a way to get that 10 team list submitted and accepted. Well done on Sandy's team's part on recognizing this aspect of the deal and getting it done. What a switch from the previous administration.

Willets Point Jul 14 2011 08:29 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

The best thing about this trade is that now all the top threads on the 'Pool are about K-Rod rather than Jeter. Gradually we may reach a point where the threads are about players currently on the Mets.

Ceetar Jul 14 2011 08:43 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Willets Point wrote: The best thing about this trade is that now all the top threads on the 'Pool are about K-Rod rather than Jeter. Gradually we may reach a point where the threads are about players currently on the Mets. Hopefully by this time next week they're all about Reyes again.

bmfc1 Jul 14 2011 09:10 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Possible identity of one of the PTBNL: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... clen001mic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_McClendon_(baseball) based on: http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/07/a- ... nt=Twitter

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 14 2011 09:20 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Better guess could be Mat Gamel, I think.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2011 09:24 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Better guess could be Mat Gamel, I think. Only... he's the Prince Fielder insurance, I think.

TransMonk Jul 14 2011 09:27 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Better guess could be Mat Gamel, I think. Only... he's the Prince Fielder insurance, I think. Very much this. I don't think he is going anywhere and will be the opening day starter at 1B for Milwaukee in 2012.

metirish Jul 14 2011 09:37 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Love Prince but often think Mo Vaughn when I see his girth .

Benjamin Grimm Jul 14 2011 09:47 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I'm hoping for a starting pitcher and a catcher.

metirish Jul 14 2011 09:49 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm hoping for a starting pitcher and a catcher. I assume you are looking for a catcher to supplant Thole?

seawolf17 Jul 14 2011 10:03 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

metirish wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm hoping for a starting pitcher and a catcher. I assume you are looking for a catcher to supplant Thole? Well, they can't fit back there at the same time.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 14 2011 10:22 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

metirish wrote: I assume you are looking for a catcher to supplant Thole? Well, at least to offer him some competition.

TransMonk Jul 14 2011 10:25 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I'm not totally sold on Thole yet. His hitting and defense are one thing, but the fact that some of our pitchers have better stats when Paulino is catching is equally alarming to me. edited: all to some

Rockin' Doc Jul 14 2011 11:06 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm hoping for a starting pitcher and a catcher. I'm hoping this move helps to secure our shortstop. As for Thole, I'm not sold enough on his defense/game calling to accept him as an everyday player. So if there is a decent catching prospect available, I'm okay with that. I expect the Mets will take the 2 best players available from the list of 5 PTBNL candidates without much concern for position.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 14 2011 11:34 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

If the Brewers had a SS prospect he'd be playing in Milwaukee already.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2011 11:36 AM Re: K-Rod Traded Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 14 2011 11:37 AM

They had one. He can't get on-base with an armed escort, and he's at the moment playing for KC, in exchange for the Dave Bush clone currently inhabiting Zack Greinke's body.

TransMonk Jul 14 2011 11:37 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I think he meant being more secure in keeping Reyes...but you are right.

Ceetar Jul 14 2011 11:49 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

TransMonk wrote: I'm not totally sold on Thole yet. His hitting and defense are one thing, but the fact that some of our pitchers have better stats when Paulino is catching is equally alarming to me. edited: all to some I thought he did a good job with catching last year, and at least wasn't a liability. But maybe it's just a small sample size and that he pitched when the season was mostly over. Catcher-Pitcher relationships confuse me the most. How much they really do, how much is the pitcher just sucking, coincidence that Thole was pitching when they get shelled? Is it Thole's call or did the pitcher/does the pitcher shake him off more _because_ he's sorta a rookie? I wonder how much a veteran/expert like Santana coming back helps.

TransMonk Jul 14 2011 12:04 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Well, I think it depends as much on the pitcher. I'm thinking more specifically on a guy like Pelfrey, who I think will mostly pitch to Paulino for the remainder of the year. I'm guessing in that situation, it's a question of confidence...which Paulino seems to help him with. Maybe Thole didn't get enough of a chance...but maybe Thole lacks a little confidence of his own. For Niese and Dickey, it doesn't seem to matter much who they throw to.

Ceetar Jul 14 2011 12:26 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

TransMonk wrote: Well, I think it depends as much on the pitcher. I'm thinking more specifically on a guy like Pelfrey, who I think will mostly pitch to Paulino for the remainder of the year. I'm guessing in that situation, it's a question of confidence...which Paulino seems to help him with. Maybe Thole didn't get enough of a chance...but maybe Thole lacks a little confidence of his own. For Niese and Dickey, it doesn't seem to matter much who they throw to. here's a thought..maybe Pelfrey misses _Wright_ . He struggled in April and was probably beyond help at that point, but Wright's been known to go to the mound to settle Pelf down or encourage/tough love him.

TransMonk Jul 14 2011 01:10 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

If nothing else, I miss Wright.

Edgy MD Jul 14 2011 02:47 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Sure, but Wright's been around the clubhouse playing his share of cards.

Ceetar Jul 14 2011 02:48 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Edgy DC wrote: Sure, but Wright's been around the clubhouse playing his share of cards. I meant in-game. We all know Wright's a shark when it comes to cards.

MFS62 Jul 14 2011 09:32 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

When asked to name the best ever PTBNL, Buster Olney said "Jessee Orosco is the first who comes to mind". I'll take one of those, please. Later

attgig Jul 15 2011 03:23 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

from mlbtraderumors: Francisco Rodriguez has agreed to waive his $17.5MM vesting option for 2012 in exchange for additional compensation, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (on Twitter). The reliever will hit the open market at the end of the 2011 season. The Brewers can now use Rodriguez without worrying that they'll have to pay him $17.5MM in 2012. The reliever's option would have become guaranteed for that amount if he had finished 55 total games this season, and he finished 34 with the Mets before heading to Milwaukee. woah.... couldn't we have just done that too?

TransMonk Jul 15 2011 03:31 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I think the question is, couldn't he have just done that for us? I don't know that Frankie really wants to be in Milwaukee...but he does really want to be a closer.

attgig Jul 15 2011 03:32 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

TransMonk wrote: I think the question is, couldn't he have just done that for us? I don't know that Frankie really wants to be in Milwaukee...but he does really want to be a closer. would make me think NY would've been a better situation to be a closer in.

TransMonk Jul 15 2011 03:35 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I'm guessing this all goes back to Frankie's ex-agent not turning in the no-trade paperwork on time.

Ashie62 Jul 15 2011 04:24 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Thole makes Paulino look like an all-star.

Frayed Knot Jul 17 2011 04:50 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Frankie made his first appearance as a Beer-maker Sat night ... in the [u:17zy80c1]8th[/u:17zy80c1] inning of a tie game. Got the side 1-2-4 with an infield error as the only blemish. He even came out of it with the win when the Brews scored twice in the bottom half then Axford came on for the save although he gave up two hits and a run plus left the tying run on. In the game again today, again in the 8th, this time with a two-run lead. Gave up a leadoff double and later a walk but also got 2 Ks (one of them Tulowitski) and allowed no runs to score. And again Axford came in for the save and again he was shaky giving up a run before getting the final out - Tulowitski K-ing with 2-on. Where was that Tulo when WE played him?

Edgy MD Jul 17 2011 08:52 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

I'm guessing that no, he wouldn't have done that for us, as we didn't have that sort of leverage.

Ashie62 Jul 17 2011 09:52 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Anyone other than me believe shopping Pelfrey this month may be in the best interests of the future??

Willets Point Jul 17 2011 10:08 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ashie62 wrote: Anyone other than me believe shopping Pelfrey this month may be in the best interests of the future?? If there's a team willing to give some "futures" for Pelfrey, I'm all for it.

Edgy MD Jul 18 2011 05:59 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

I have no doubt that Sanderson Alderson has Pelfrey off of the untouchable list. Whether he finds a good match or not is another matter.

TransMonk Jul 18 2011 07:36 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Ashie62 wrote: Anyone other than me believe shopping Pelfrey this month may be in the best interests of the future??

Benjamin Grimm Oct 10 2011 11:09 AM Re: K-Rod Traded

Latest news has Frankie saying he'd be willing to sign with the Mets this winter. Unless his asking price comes waaaaaaaay down, I don't see it happening.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 10 2011 02:35 PM Re: K-Rod Traded

Tough to find good pabellon criollo and arepas in the Midwest, eh?