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Who's at Second (2012)?

bmfc1 Jul 26 2011 08:15 AM

Any thoughts on the Mets starting 2B for '12? We know that it won't be Brad Emaus. Beyond that, assume that Ike is back at 1B and Jose is back at SS. Turner? From Amazin' Avenue: Through 6/1: .320/.364/.470 in 107 plate appearances (.349 BABIP) After 6/1: .246/.319/.298 in 192 plate appearances (.284 BABIP) http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/7/26/2 ... -a-starter Murphy? Boy can he "rake" but boy is he a knucklehead. As a fielder, he's a good DH. AA says that Duda should play 1B the rest of the season so Murphy can get experience at 2B. Do you agree that Murphy should move to 2B to prepare for 2012?

TransMonk Jul 26 2011 08:19 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

I think it depends a little on who's playing SS. There's a possibility you can throw Tejada in the mix as well. Murphy gives us the best offense at second (especially against righties), but I think we will still see several players get the chance to play 2B in 2012.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 08:21 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

I think they start with a Turner/Murphy mix. Certainly they've both played well enough to earn that much. Where they finish is another story. I disagree about Murphy being a knucklehead or purely a DH. He's missing a lot but it's not like he brings nothing to the field.

Ceetar Jul 26 2011 08:26 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Edgy DC wrote: I think they start with a Turner/Murphy mix. Certainly they've both played well enough to earn that much. Where they finish is another story. I disagree about Murphy being a knucklehead or purely a DH. He's missing a lot but it's not like he brings nothing to the field. I think Murphy would benefit from one position, as much as his versatility has been valuable this year given the injuries, I think he'd make a couple less mistakes if he could get a little more repetition at one place. I like his range and his aggressiveness. If the season ended right now I agree with AA that it should be Murphy, but the last two months will be very telling. Turner .326/.408/.372 (.780) over the last two weeks. He played with bruised and battered thumbs. I don't think he's "clearly not a starter" I don't think the Mets go outside the organization looking for a 2Bman though.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 26 2011 08:29 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Maybe we see Reese Havens finally. I like the way Tyrna plays and Muffy, but not sure either should be everydayers. Too early to say I think.

bmfc1 Jul 26 2011 08:30 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Good point Ceetar about Turner's thumb injury. I wish he'd stop questioning the bad calls--the umps aren't going to correct their calls and they don't like it when a rookie is demonstrative (Ike is guilty of this, too). I hope that being at one position will help Murphy but when he's in the field, I don't see "baseball smarts" like we often saw with Tejada (FAFIF has a good take on Murphy today).

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 08:34 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

I think he benefits more from moving about, and not living under the challenge of refining himself to master a position under a critical spotlight. Moving about allows him to focus on his hitting, and manage his fielding with a combination of hustle, determination, fear of reduced playing time, and the liberal use of late-inning replacements. In my vision of 2012, he's getting 45% of the starts at second and 20-25% at first, third, and left. But I bet I could show you a pretty nice highlight reel of ten find Murphy plays just from this month --- including shots of him at first, second, and third.

metsmarathon Jul 26 2011 08:39 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

the good thing about murphy's knuckleheadedness is that it's seemingly borne out of trying really really hard. i think that he could be pretty ok given a more full-time assignment to second base, but we'd probably be better off with a murphy turner platoon for next year, with options in the minors.

seawolf17 Jul 26 2011 08:55 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 09:05 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

As the personal sponsor of Jordany's development, I suggest you look more toward 2013 for his ascendency. For one, you may think Murphy is a knucklehead, but JV has out-errored him 28-9. Really, I think this team has been so forced to play flawless in order to win, I don't think we appreciate how cleanly they'd been bringing it most of the summer. I count Murphy in there also.

TheOldMole Jul 26 2011 09:16 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

There has been an instance of a reserve player -- never a regular at any position -- winning a batting title. Billy Goodman of the Red Sox in 1950, with .354.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 26 2011 09:17 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

It's the totality of Muffy's fuckups that makes him so special. He makes dumb baserunning decisions in addition to his many fielding gaffes, not all of which result in errors. My memory of specifics is shot but there were 3 or 4 games early this year that he singlehandedly cost us with one dumb play or another. Am I right? I love that goofy bastard.

Frayed Knot Jul 26 2011 09:25 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Hell, in the last two games alone he's: - dropped one foul pop-up and over-ran another - cut off a throw that probably nails a runner at the plate - tried advancing to 3rd on a come-backer ... and gone 4-for-8 w/2 doubles and 2 RBIs

Edgy DC Jul 26 2011 09:48 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's the totality of Muffy's fuckups that makes him so special. He makes dumb baserunning decisions in addition to his many fielding gaffes, not all of which result in errors. My memory of specifics is shot but there were 3 or 4 games early this year that he singlehandedly cost us with one dumb play or another. Am I right? I love that goofy bastard. What's coming back at me is the caught stealing at third in the midst of the 5-13 start. They got swept in a doubleheader on Friday, had a rainout on Saturday, and were in the process of getting swept Sunday with the Mets down 3-0 in the sixth. Murph led off the inning with a double and was promptly thrown out stealign third. Got his head ripped off in the dugout by Collins. http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 4162.shtml That Collins subsequently came to rely on him so much this season is to his credit. I'm afraid Manuel would have dealt with the situation by pretending Murphy didn't exist.

Edgy DC Jul 27 2011 07:12 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Hard to see Murphy hit the ball hard time after time after time the way he is and think the Mets will be in the market for a scondbaseman next year. I mean, maybe he ends up traded or in left or something, but right now, between Murphy and Turner, the Mets have more secondbaseman than most teams. Throw Tejada and the minor league Mets into the mix, and we are spoiled for choice.

TransMonk Jul 28 2011 07:23 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Always better to have too many options than not enough.

MFS62 Jul 28 2011 07:32 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

metsmarathon wrote: the good thing about murphy's knuckleheadedness is that it's seemingly borne out of trying really really hard. Tim McCarver calls those "errors of enthusiasm". I have always like Murphy's approach to hitting. When I first heard the "not enough power to play a corner infield position" I reminded folks that's what they said about Wade Boggs, too. Mole mentioned Billy Goodman, another example of a guy with no position, who could hit. But IIRC, the year he won the batting title, he mostly played all the infield positions. Aslo- Most of Valdespin's errors have come as a shortstop. I think those might drop significantly if he were moved to second. But 2013 seems about right for his first major league game. Later

Farmer Ted Jul 28 2011 07:48 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Turner.

attgig Jul 28 2011 07:57 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

murph has hit too well not to deserve a spot. they may try a platoon, but i just see turner becoming the bench guy.

smg58 Jul 28 2011 09:37 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

According to the Fielding Bible, Murphy has been exactly average at third, above average at first (especially on bunts), and below average at second (the big issue being turning two). He has turned some routine plays into misadventures, but his overall defense is sound, and I think most people who follow the Mets can see that. And he's proving that his bat can play at this level. The question remains, can he play second base well enough? I do think that's a question the Mets should try to answer this season. He's welcome to prove me wrong, but my current impression of Turner is that he's a fifth infielder on a winning team. I think Tejada's bat needs to develop further before I'd feel comfortable starting him.

Edgy DC Jul 28 2011 09:58 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

You can kind of platoon Turner and Duda down the stretch, with Murphy playing second against righties and first against lefties.

Ashie62 Jul 28 2011 09:59 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

When Sandy sat in the booth a couple of weeks ago he spoke highly of Turner..Not to trade him I'd imagine.

Vic Sage Jul 28 2011 10:05 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

When I first heard the "not enough power to play a corner infield position" I reminded folks that's what they said about Wade Boggs, too. yeah, but Boggs came up and immediately established himself, with an OB% consistently over .400. You do that, you can play a corner. hell, you can play anywhere. The problem for Murphy isn't a lack of "power" (he's got power, just not citified HR power, which few have). His problem has been, until the last 2 months, a lack of consistent production of a level high enough for the positions he can reasonably handle (1b/3b). Those positions are also capably manned in NY by Wright & Davis. So the question is, if he stays with the Mets, is he a supersub, or is he a starting 2bman? I would think the only way to know is to PLAY him at 2b everyday and live with the consequences until you've made that determination. If his recent production represents a new and consistent level of production, then he's Jeff Kent/Dan Uggla, with fewer HRs but higher BA and a robust overall OPS, and so you live with the glove. But if he turns back into a pumpkin and reverts to a LHed Tim Teufel, then maybe he's really a UT guy. Which is not a bad thing to have either.

attgig Jul 28 2011 10:31 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

if we're seriously thinking about murphy for 2b next year, he should start playing there every day now. I don't think he had enough time to get himself readjusted after having a season ending injury playing 2b last year. the only problem is, we're on a good stretch, and it seems like they want to see how well we can do this year (ie, maybe catch up to the braves). if that's the case, murphy's staying put at 1b.

Edgy DC Jul 28 2011 10:54 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Not if they think they can make a better run by putting Duda there some days.

Farmer Ted Jul 28 2011 11:03 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Would it be easier to convert Murph to RF?

attgig Jul 28 2011 11:34 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Farmer Ted wrote: Would it be easier to convert Murph to RF? he was horrible when he was in LF. I do NOT want to see him in the OF ever again. never ever.

bmfc1 Jul 28 2011 11:35 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Keith just said that Murphy is not a 2B and in the off-season has to "work on his corner OF positions... work hard."

attgig Jul 28 2011 11:38 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

hah. exactly what i didn't want....

Edgy DC Jul 28 2011 11:48 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Old Keith seems to believe in that positional DNA shit. Young Keith used to say that leftfield was his favorite positiion.

Frayed Knot Jul 28 2011 12:35 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Farmer Ted wrote: Would it be easier to convert Murph to RF? Easier than what ... - bench-pressing a Humvee? - electing Sarah Palin to national office? - herding Senator Schumer away from TV cameras? ... yeah, probably. But not a whole lot easier than anything else.

Vic Sage Aug 08 2011 10:12 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

now that Murphy's ripped up both knees while playing 2b, do you think that his "klueless kamikaze" style of play renders him a DH in the wrong league?

batmagadanleadoff Aug 08 2011 10:15 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Vic Sage wrote: now that Murphy's ripped up both knees while playing 2b, do you think that his "klueless kamikaze" style of play renders him a DH in the wrong league? Might as well give Murph another crack at second base next year. He can't damage any more knees.

Vic Sage Aug 08 2011 10:16 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

but he might quite literally die.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 08 2011 10:21 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

For sure. He'll be the one to run straight through a fence to catch a ball. The catch'll cost him his life. Didn't I see this in a a baseball movie? But I hope that the Mets find a way to keep him around. I love that guy.

Ceetar Aug 08 2011 10:25 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Nothing has changed.

Rockin' Doc Aug 08 2011 11:17 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Vic Sage wrote: but he might quite literally die. Not if opponents learn how to slide properly. There was nothing purposely dirty in the slide yesterday, but if Costanza had slid and stayed on the base, Murphy never would have got hurt. Yesterday was just seriously bad luck.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 08 2011 11:29 AM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Vic Sage wrote: now that Murphy's ripped up both knees while playing 2b, do you think that his "klueless kamikaze" style of play renders him a DH in the wrong league? The injury had nothing-- NOTHING-- to do with Murphy's style of play. And as ugly as it may look sometimes, said style of play has been generally very effective at the corners this year.

smg58 Aug 08 2011 12:24 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

My impression before yesterday, which hasn't changed, is that Murphy is an good major league corner infielder -- his bat will play with an average glove at third, and while he doesn't have a typical first baseman's power he can at least hold his own there. The Mets have better players at both positions (assuming full health), however, and Murphy had too many misadventures in the outfield. (To be fair, his range in the outfield was actually good; it was the routine plays that turned into triples that chased him back to the infield.) That made taking a look at him a second a reasonable experiment. But he's now blown both knees trying to play the position, and you can only try to fit a square peg in a round hole so many times. I think at this point my plan A would be to look for a team who could use Murphy at third or first and has a comparable bat to spare at a position more suitable for us.

Edgy DC Aug 08 2011 12:37 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

I'm sure they'll entertain offers, but it likely won't be Plan A, since inquiring teams will likely want to wait until spring to confirm his damage wasn't permanent. I disagree at least somewhat with the implication that his ability (or inability) at second somehow brought the injuries on himself.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 08 2011 12:55 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Anyone making such implications should REALLY take a look at both plays-- the Leonard Davis roll from last year and the Constanza one from yesterday-- and ask themselves honestly whether Roberto Alomar or Joe Morgan would have been able to avoid injury in the same circumstance before making any such implications again.

Vic Sage Aug 08 2011 01:13 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

i don't know who might have or might not have been injured on a similar play. I didn't see the play, and don't boast expertise over such matters even if i had seen it. What i do know is that (1) Murphy's flaws as a middle infielder, as they have been reported, are not arm strength or range; he's just shown bad footwork, poor positioning and awkward movement around the ball and around the bag, and (2) he blew out the other knee while playing 2b in the minors on what i think was a similar play. These are facts. draw your own conclusions. But i think a fluid, graceful 2bman is less likely (not immune, just less likely) to get taken out at 2b than an inexperienced, awkward one. I don't really think it's a controversial point, nor did i intend it to be. And while such a result may be purely bad luck, two such similar events may indicate a symptom. I wish him nothing but a speedy and full recovery. Perhaps, since he's run out of knees to blow out, he may then be safe to return to middle of the diamond.

Centerfield Aug 08 2011 01:47 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Murphy one of the better hitters on this team. He has to be in the lineup every day. He's not going to play 1st or third, his best positions, because the other players are better. He's not going to play SS, CF or catcher because of obvious defensive shortcomings. That leaves only second base, where he kind of sucks, or the corner OF positions, where he really sucks. Plus he doesn't really hit all that well for a corner OFer. Plug him in at second unless we can find someone who will give us a hitter who fits better into our plans.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 08 2011 02:05 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

My edge comes not from Ford, but from the fact that something like canon among certain folk that Murphy is reckless to the point of being a danger to himself and net detriment to the Mets... and, as unsightly as some of his misplays can be at times, that just reeks of bullstink. I don't necessarily dispute your larger point, Vic, but on these two plays-- one a little more than a little dirty, and the other just plain freakish-- it just doesn't wash. Last year: [youtube]UQZlmKzrLeU[/youtube] This weekend.

Centerfield Aug 08 2011 02:14 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Rockin' Doc wrote: Vic Sage wrote: but he might quite literally die. Not if opponents learn how to slide properly. There was nothing purposely dirty in the slide yesterday, but if Costanza had slid and stayed on the base, Murphy never would have got hurt. Yesterday was just seriously bad luck. Agreed. Having watched the replay today, I have to agree there was nothing dirty about it. Awkward and shitty, but nothing dirty.

Ashie62 Aug 08 2011 02:22 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Centerfield wrote: Murphy one of the better hitters on this team. He has to be in the lineup every day. He's not going to play 1st or third, his best positions, because the other players are better. He's not going to play SS, CF or catcher because of obvious defensive shortcomings. That leaves only second base, where he kind of sucks, or the corner OF positions, where he really sucks. Plus he doesn't really hit all that well for a corner OFer. Plug him in at second unless we can find someone who will give us a hitter who fits better into our plans. That sums it up pretty well. Justin Turner, what to do...

Edgy DC Aug 08 2011 03:09 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

it's like his spike got caught on the base, storing up up momentum-generated energy in his leg for an instant, and then released (lucky for him, unlucky for Murphy), and changed direction about 25 degrees toward centerfield, popping to into Murphy's knee perhaps twice as hard as it would have had he slid right into it. Strange play, you can fault him for exposing that knee in the first place, but the hit itself was a spike version of getting wounded by a bad hop.

Chad Ochoseis Aug 08 2011 04:19 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: For sure. He'll be the one to run straight through a fence to catch a ball. The catch'll cost him his life. Didn't I see this in a a baseball movie? But I hope that the Mets find a way to keep him around. I love that guy. [youtube]M2dR36mTkyo[/youtube] Not quite through the fence, but close enough.

Ashie62 Aug 08 2011 04:29 PM Re: Who's at Second (2012)?

Edgy DC wrote: it's like his spike got caught on the base, storing up up momentum-generated energy in his leg for an instant, and then released (lucky for him, unlucky for Murphy), and changed direction about 25 degrees toward centerfield, popping to into Murphy's knee perhaps twice as hard as it would have had he slid right into it. Strange play, you can fault him for exposing that knee in the first place, but the hit itself was a spike version of getting wounded by a bad hop. Or being victimized by the Second Spitter.