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Possible 2012 Outfield

metirish Aug 31 2011 08:30 AM

Mets' Jason Bay could move to center field in 2012, team up with Daniel Murphy, Lucas Duda in OF BY ANDY MARTINO DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Wednesday, August 31st 2011, 9:51 AM Imperfect circumstances call for creative solutions, and in recent weeks the Mets have kicked around many ideas for 2012. In that spirit, a well-placed front office source said it is "a possibility" that the Mets will move Jason Bay to center field next year. That remains far from likely, the source said, but its consideration is interesting in what it reveals about the Mets' view of three players: Bay, Daniel Murphy and Angel Pagan. Bay, signed to a four-year, $66 million contract before last season, has not displayed the power he once wielded in Pittsburgh and Boston. He was 0-for-4 in the Mets' 6-0 loss to Florida Tuesday night at Citi Field. But teammates and management continue to be impressed by Bay's leadership and positive clubhouse presence, and the Mets are searching for a way to make his career here work (although they will also likely try to gauge his trade value this winter). As a second team official observed, moving Bay to center would remove the onus to be a slugging outfielder. A center fielder who hits 12-15 homers, runs the bases well and posts a respectable on-base percentage is more acceptable than a corner outfielder who offers that production. As for Bay's defense, advanced metrics and scouts agree that he is a good left fielder - but the scouts say that center could be challenging for him. One metric, defensive runs saved, rates Bay as the National League's third-best left fielder, with two runs saved (Arizona's Gerardo Parra and St. Louis' Matt Holliday are ahead of him). A National League scout who has seen the Mets many times this year said, "He's a pretty good left fielder, but he might not have the speed for center, and that's a pretty big outfield in New York." Within the clubhouse, there was some enthusiasm for the idea. "Jason is our best outfielder," one player said. Bay said that he was willing to do whatever the team asked, but did not otherwise wish to comment on a hypothetical. To be clear: The Mets understand that this move would create a shaky defensive outfield. But they are searching for ways to help Bay, and to include Murphy's bat in the lineup. When Murphy suffered a season-ending knee injury while trying to turn a double play, team brass wondered if he needed another position. GM Sandy Alderson, stressing the need to find a home for Murphy's bat, said that he might move to the outfield. Obviously, Murphy cannot play center. Duda is expected to be in right. So if Murphy is an outfielder, he would be back in left, a position he tried and failed to play in 2009. And if Murphy is in left, Bay is either on another team, or in center. The scout was not enthusiastic about a Murphy-Bay-Duda outfield. "Oh my God," he said. Still, he endorsed the idea of again trying Murphy in left. "We all know Murphy can hit," the scout said. "So stick him in left and see what he can give you. There are a lot of bad (defensive) left fielders." It is also possible that Pagan will return. Although some in the new regime are profoundly unimpressed, Pagan has hit .330 in August after Tuesday night, offering a reminder of the talent that emerged in 2010. It is conceivable that the Mets would offer arbitration to Pagan and keep him in center, make Murphy the second baseman again, and either look to trade Bay or keep him in left. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z1WcJOQyQu

seawolf17 Aug 31 2011 08:31 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Let him try it out in Buffalo for a year first, then we'll think about it for 2013.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 31 2011 08:51 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I suppose Bay's production would be a little more palatable from a center fielder. I think it would be even more palatable from somebody ten years younger and making 5 per cent of Jason Bay's salary. In theory, I like that they're going to explore trading Bay, but in practice I can't imagine them getting anything back other than somebody else's overpaid player. (One of those change-of-scenery deals.) It's hard to see such a deal having too much upside, but I suppose it's possible.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 31 2011 08:56 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

But teammates and management continue to be impressed by Bay's leadership and positive clubhouse presence, and the Mets are searching for a way to make his career here work (although they will also likely try to gauge his trade value this winter). As a second team official observed, moving Bay to center would remove the onus to be a slugging outfielder. A center fielder who hits 12-15 homers, runs the bases well and posts a respectable on-base percentage is more acceptable than a corner outfielder who offers that production. Leadership? Positive clubhouse presence? Who's running this team? Is my boy Jeffie overruling the GM again? Perhaps the Mets could move Bay into the starting pitching rotation. Then there'd be no pressure on Bay to hit.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 31 2011 09:07 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I keep closing my eyes to picture a Murphy-Bay-Duda outfield, but all I see in my mind is a Hieronymus Bosch painting, or Kathy Bates' hot tub scene in About Schmidt, or a gigantic diaper filled with "recycled" blue-and-orange curry.

metirish Aug 31 2011 09:49 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I keep closing my eyes to picture a Murphy-Bay-Duda outfield, but all I see in my mind is a Hieronymus Bosch painting, or Kathy Bates' hot tub scene in About Schmidt, or a gigantic diaper filled with "recycled" blue-and-orange curry. nothing to add to that.....

Benjamin Grimm Aug 31 2011 09:57 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

You know, maybe they would be better off trading Bay for a pitcher with an awful contract. A pitcher who will get $30 million or so over the next two years and will give you 100 bad innings per year. It's still wasted money, but at least it would free up an outfield spot. (This move only makes sense if there's a good enough outfielder ready to fill that spot.)

DocTee Aug 31 2011 10:00 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Victor. Effin. Zambrano.

DocTee Aug 31 2011 10:00 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Or Carlos. Must. Get. Coffee.

Ashie62 Aug 31 2011 10:01 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

That could be a decent oufield offensively although it has a stopgap feel to it, for what I don't know. Now, the over/under on collisions among the three? hmmmm.

metirish Aug 31 2011 10:03 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

DocTee wrote: Victor. Effin. Zambrano. Zambrano 12:$18M, 13:$19.25M vesting player option I was going to say Zito 12:$19M, 13:$20M, 14:$18M club option ($7M buyout) Bay 12:$16M, 13:$16M, 14:$17M club option ($3M buyout) 2014 option guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2013 or 500 PAs in both 2012, 2013 full no-trade clause good luck with all of that GM's.. crazy

Ceetar Aug 31 2011 10:08 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

metirish wrote: Victor. Effin. Zambrano. Zambrano 12:$18M, 13:$19.25M vesting player option I was going to say Zito 12:$19M, 13:$20M, 14:$18M club option ($7M buyout) Bay 12:$16M, 13:$16M, 14:$17M club option ($3M buyout) 2014 option guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2013 or 500 PAs in both 2012, 2013 full no-trade clause good luck with all of that GM's.. crazy best option there is Zambrano (That's Carlos, presumably, not Victor) and simply prevent him vesting (what's the terms?) but I wouldn't take any of those guys. You've gotta find someone that's particularly better than Pelfrey or Gee and that'd you'd rather start. Unless you're pencilling this guy into the Cap's spot that Santana hopefully takes, if not early in 2012, somewhat there after.

Frayed Knot Aug 31 2011 10:12 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Carlos Zambrano probably hits better than Bay at this point.

metirish Aug 31 2011 10:12 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Terms Zambrano receives 2013 player option if 1) he is first or second in 2011 Cy Young vote or if he finishes in top 4 in 2012 Cy Young vote and 2) he is healthy at end of 2012

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 31 2011 10:13 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

The plus side to Zambrano: depending on whether Hairston was brought back, Ol' Ca-Rage-cas would immediately become the team's best righty PH.

G-Fafif Aug 31 2011 10:38 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Though you'd be sacrificing something in the vaunted leadership and positive clubhouse presence department. I wonder if that's Martinospeak for "I don't want to lose a good source." I don't doubt Bay's good-guyness, but honestly, what is he leading them to: fourth place?

metirish Aug 31 2011 10:48 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Yeah that stuff is over rated BS....Mike Jacobs was positive in the clubhouse too.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 31 2011 11:13 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

metirish wrote: Terms Zambrano receives 2013 player option if 1) he is first or second in 2011 Cy Young vote or if he finishes in top 4 in 2012 Cy Young vote and 2) he is healthy at end of 2012 Wow... if the Mets could trade Bay for Zambrano, I'd be inclined to do it. Bay is guaranteed $35 million. Zambrano is only guaranteed $18 million, and it would go up to $37.5 if Zambrano has a very strong 2012. And if Zambrano sucks, you bump him to long relief and he's gone after one year. You still come out $17 million ahead. I don't imagine the Cubs would do a straight-up swap, but maybe if the Mets threw in some cash.

Lefty Specialist Aug 31 2011 11:16 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I keep closing my eyes to picture a Murphy-Bay-Duda outfield, but all I see in my mind is a Hieronymus Bosch painting, or Kathy Bates' hot tub scene in About Schmidt, or a gigantic diaper filled with "recycled" blue-and-orange curry. Me, I see MC Escher drawings.

smg58 Aug 31 2011 12:16 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I keep closing my eyes to picture a Murphy-Bay-Duda outfield, but all I see in my mind is a Hieronymus Bosch painting, or Kathy Bates' hot tub scene in About Schmidt, or a gigantic diaper filled with "recycled" blue-and-orange curry. This.

smg58 Aug 31 2011 12:23 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Benjamin Grimm wrote: You know, maybe they would be better off trading Bay for a pitcher with an awful contract. A pitcher who will get $30 million or so over the next two years and will give you 100 bad innings per year. It's still wasted money, but at least it would free up an outfield spot. (This move only makes sense if there's a good enough outfielder ready to fill that spot.) Depends on how you feel about F-Mart or Nick Evans (or a platoon of them), or what you think Pelfrey could bring back in a trade. I'd take Zambrano for Bay, simply because 2013 is the ETA for a lot of pitching talent and we'd have no bad commitments at that point. But I think the fact that Pagan has been a better hitter than Bay by a comfortable margin, struggles and all, before you even consider what this would do to the Mets' defense, is more than enough reason not to take the Bay in center rumor too seriously.

TransMonk Aug 31 2011 01:02 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Andy Martino wrote: A center fielder who hits 12-15 homers, runs the bases well and posts a respectable on-base percentage is more acceptable than a corner outfielder who offers that production. I hate this line of thinking. A centerfielder who can play centerfield is more acceptable than a corner outfielder who cannot. Offensive goals from your outfield should be cumulative, not based on where the guys play defense. Inversely, you should not be considered an asset at any defensive position based on what your offensive stat line reads.

attgig Aug 31 2011 01:29 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

no way cubs take on bay's salary for Z. they'd be better just dfa'ing him, and paying him for nothing. If they were taking Bay, I think they'd rather try to get rid of Soriano's contract. That I can see happening, but no way we touch him. his only tool is power, and that would disappear in citifield. trading bay would require a zito-ish contract, though I don't see sf eager to trade with us again. How about trading Bay for.... yeah, i got nothing.

Chad Ochoseis Aug 31 2011 01:51 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Carlos Zambrano probably hits better than Bay at this point. Bay's OPS as a Met: .697 Zambrano's OPS, same period: .682.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 17 2011 09:28 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Rumors today say the Mets are considering... ENDY CHAVEZ as a possible fourth outfielder for 2012.

attgig Nov 17 2011 09:41 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Rumors today say the Mets are considering... ENDY CHAVEZ as a possible fourth outfielder for 2012. they're lowering the walls just in time.

Edgy MD Nov 17 2011 10:48 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

TransMonk wrote: Andy Martino wrote: A center fielder who hits 12-15 homers, runs the bases well and posts a respectable on-base percentage is more acceptable than a corner outfielder who offers that production. I hate this line of thinking. A centerfielder who can play centerfield is more acceptable than a corner outfielder who cannot. Offensive goals from your outfield should be cumulative, not based on where the guys play defense. Inversely, you should not be considered an asset at any defensive position based on what your offensive stat line reads. Ah, c'mon, man.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 17 2011 11:10 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Edgy posts more photos of shirtless Mets than everyone else combined.

Edgy MD Nov 17 2011 12:27 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I came back in today just to get my skin shots off the hard drive.

Ashie62 Nov 17 2011 02:22 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Oh the humanity.

Ashie62 Nov 17 2011 05:01 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ashie62 wrote: Oh the humanity. That is unholy skin..

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 22 2011 05:33 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Possible reinforcement comes via Ankiel-route (control-problems-pitcher-to-surprisingly-competent-bat-- peep that climbing slugging/dropping K-rate) OF Adam Loewen, former Oriole/Jay/Son of Anarchy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 22 2011 06:58 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ashie's bullshit has ruined this thread. What about Adam Loewen?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 22 2011 07:13 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Assuming his numbers last year weren't entirely a PCL mirage, he could be second or third in line to make an appearance when someone goes owie next year. And the idea gives me a little half-Kieschnick in my pants.

Edgy MD Nov 22 2011 07:58 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Not a lot of great fu manchus in Mets history. A wispy one on Wally Backman and well-scupted one on Steve Henderson come to mind. I'm sure Piazza wore one at one time or another. Loewen would blow them all out of the water on day one, I think.

Ceetar Nov 22 2011 08:27 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I'm curious what the new 4th option/outrighting rules are actually, as it pertains to Fernando Martinez. I saw one or two suggestions that it's beneficial to the team (i.e. easier to have that 4th option year) but nothing's clear from the official synopsis. Is it possible F-Mart becomes ineligible for it and is forced into a on the roster or on waivers situation? edit: guess I'm wrong, he didn't actually use his 3rd option. Oh well. Willie Mays for CF anyone?

Edgy MD Nov 22 2011 09:01 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

You get a fourth option year if you come up at a young enough age, or some'un. GM Alderson has stated on more than one occasion his confidence that Martinez is option-able this year.

Ceetar Nov 22 2011 09:12 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Edgy DC wrote: You get a fourth option year if you come up at a young enough age, or some'un. GM Alderson has stated on more than one occasion his confidence that Martinez is option-able this year. yeah, but they changed the rules. regardless, I was wrong, we're talking about third option year, not fourth. He didn't use one in 2009.

metirish Nov 23 2011 06:15 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ashie's bullshit has ruined this thread. What about Adam Loewen? hopefully Adam Loewen's bullshit such as it is doesn't ruin the outfield, kidding this is cool though Toronto Blue Jays Loewen was called up to the Blue Jays on September 6, 2011, marking his first trip back to the majors since becoming a position player.[7][8] Loewen made his position player debut on Wednesday, September 7, against the Boston Red Sox. He recorded his first career hit in the 8th inning, against reliever Daniel Bard.[9] In a game against his former team, the Baltimore Orioles, on September 11, Loewen hit his first career home run, a solo shot over the centre field wall off starter Tommy Hunter.[10]

Frayed Knot Nov 23 2011 06:55 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: What about Adam Loewen? Yeah, it wasn't apparent to me via the above post that he had been signed by the Mets or if this were merely speculation. Turns out it's the former. Assuming his numbers last year weren't entirely a PCL mirage, he could be second or third in line to make an appearance when someone goes owie next year. And the idea gives me a little half-Kieschnick in my pants. Not just PCL-inflated but specifically Las Vegas inflated. That place has the rep as one of the best hitters' parks in all of organized baseball. The hope is that, between the late start and reaching his prime years (28 come opening day), his 2011 stats shows he's getting better and not just a one-year fluke. And the problem with the Brooks Kieschnick dream is that his switch from pitching was caused by numerous and severe injuries so I don't think the pitching part of the PH/OF/RP trifecta will ever be an option.

seawolf17 Nov 23 2011 07:42 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Dude's been an outfielder for three years; I had no idea. When I saw the post on Twitter I thought it was a misprint.

TransMonk Nov 23 2011 07:47 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I'm rooting for him.

Fman99 Nov 23 2011 09:54 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Edgy DC wrote: Not a lot of great fu manchus in Mets history. AHEM Lest we forget the FMan Chu. Or Fu Man Jew.

metirish Nov 23 2011 10:26 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

great pic

Frayed Knot Nov 23 2011 10:59 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

metirish wrote: great pic Only if he also draws one on the kid.

Fman99 Nov 23 2011 02:57 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ashie62 Nov 23 2011 03:45 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ashie's bullshit has ruined this thread. What about Adam Loewen? Lighten up Francis.. Loewen is a stiff, albeit a cheap one.

MFS62 Nov 23 2011 08:33 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ashie62 wrote: Lighten up Francis.. Got it, and laughed out loud. One of my favorite all-time movies. Later

Vic Sage Nov 23 2011 09:29 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.

MFS62 Nov 24 2011 08:42 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Vic Sage wrote: Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you. Yep, you got the right movie, Francis. Later

Edgy MD Nov 24 2011 09:28 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I just can't believe there's such a thing as a poor man's Rick Ankiel. Ankiel has one of the most unusual career tracks and it's like Loewen's analogous in almost every way.

Ashie62 Nov 24 2011 10:03 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ankiel can hit though... Maybe Sandy can cut costs further OF/RP? Loewen has to be for organizational depth.

Frayed Knot Nov 24 2011 10:56 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Loewen has been a non-pitcher for 2+ seasons so far; prior to 2009 he had all of 2 pro ABs and has had some 1,300 since while hitting at ~ .267/.363/.426; How is that enough to qualify him as anything at this point yet much less as a "stiff"? Ankiel was younger when he started to make his switch, but essentially sat out from 2001 to 2007 and wasn't much different during his hitting apprenticeship than what Loewen is doing now. This idea that Ankiel's hitting was somehow a known quantity all along while Loewen not only can't hit but also never will manages to be both hindsight and speculation at the same time.

Ashie62 Nov 24 2011 11:07 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

The idea that Loewen will translate into anything more than a marginal major league player at best is delusional. Sandy..shoot higher..

Edgy MD Nov 24 2011 12:59 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ashie62 wrote: Ankiel can hit though... Maybe Sandy can cut costs further OF/RP? Loewen has to be for organizational depth. He certainly has hit in the minors. I thought I made it pretty clear that I spoke of a poor man's Ankiel. Considering how Ankiel has hit the last two years (and even the last five), he looks like a better bet for the money, though without much centerfielding on his résumé. Sandy..shoot smart..

Frayed Knot Nov 24 2011 01:11 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ashie62 wrote: The idea that Loewen will translate into anything more than a marginal major league player at best is delusional. Sandy..shoot higher.. I was unaware that Loewen was guaranteed a starting job to the exclusion of all other contenders.

Ashie62 Nov 24 2011 04:03 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Frayed Knot wrote: Ashie62 wrote: The idea that Loewen will translate into anything more than a marginal major league player at best is delusional. Sandy..shoot higher.. I was unaware that Loewen was guaranteed a starting job to the exclusion of all other contenders. I felt like Loewen was being presented as a serious short term answer and got carried away..Sorry FK Shit, if we're not spending you might as well pencil in Nieuwenhuis in the OF and Reese Havens in the IF The FA list is pretty uninspiring IMHO..

Edgy MD Nov 24 2011 04:32 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I don't know that free agency lists are meant to inspire, but it seems as talent-laden as ever. The only free agent I really have my eye on is the shortstop from New York.

Ashie62 Nov 24 2011 06:15 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I was looking at a list of guys likely to go one year for about 4 million and it appeared grisly I guess thats why they are cheap. I wonder if Sandy is just going to bide time until the homegrowns are ready and fill in a few inexpensive needs in the interim. I mean, do you want Erik Bedard for one year???

Edgy MD Nov 24 2011 06:42 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

No, I want José Reyes for the rest of his career. Else, yeah, absolutely, keep it in the family and (somehow) get healthy.

Ashie62 Nov 24 2011 08:20 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Edgy DC wrote: No, I want José Reyes for the rest of his career. Else, yeah, absolutely, keep it in the family and (somehow) get healthy. That would be a nice Christmas present.

Frayed Knot Nov 24 2011 09:20 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Loewen was signed to a minor league contract* with no guarantees of even making the club. And the piece on Mets.com suggests that, if things work out, he'd likely be slotted to fill the role manned by Willie Harris this past year. IOW, we're really making too much of this here ... especially this early. * and even that's just "according to sources"; the team has yet to announce this signing officially

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 24 2011 09:28 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

He's an actual, honest-to-goodness Met signing with a shot to contribute at the margins, majors-wise. I'm pretty certain that's the spirit in which most-- if not all-- of us were discussing him here. Also, he looks like he could be a candidate to fill the Henry Blanco Memorial "Where'd You Do Your Time?" slot on the roster, aesthetically speaking.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2011 12:41 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Did anyone watch Mets Hot Stove yesterday? Kevin was interviewing Terry Collins, and they were talking about Ruben Tejada. Terry was saying that if Tejada ends up replacing Reyes as the shortstop, he'll have to learn to stay within himself, not try to be Jose Reyes, but to be Ruben Tejada (blah blah blah). Terry said he'll have to continually reinforce the message, and he expects to get help from veteran players who can mentor Tejada, like Angel Pagan or "Carlos Beltran if he's here." Huh? I have to wonder, was Terry having a senior moment? Or did he let something slip? I remember when the Mets traded Beltran, they had asked him if a trade would preclude them from resigning Carlos as a free agent over the winter. But in the two months after the trade, Lucas Duda emerged (to a degree, anyway) and I assumed that the Mets would pencil in right field as a position that's set with a low-cost player. And they wouldn't bring back Beltran to play center, would they? I doubt that we'll see Beltran return in 2012, but Terry did say what he said, and I am curious about what's behind it.

metirish Dec 02 2011 12:43 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Interesting , at the least Beltran could expect two years $20 million?, too rich for the Mets?

Ceetar Dec 02 2011 12:48 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

metirish wrote: Interesting , at the least Beltran could expect two years $20 million?, too rich for the Mets? yeah. I think that's too rich for the Mets. I'd love to see it, I'd love to see them make it work somehow, but it just doesn't seem feasible. Maybe he was just citing Beltran as a guy that was good in that role? Not specifically Beltran but a mentor as good as Beltran?

smg58 Dec 02 2011 01:34 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I would assume that the Mets would go in on another free agent if they don't land Reyes, and Beltran would actually be a good plan B if they don't have to guarantee more than two years. Whether Collins and Alderson have actually discussed that is anybody's guess.

Edgy MD Jan 17 2012 08:32 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Looking back and ahead with Loewen.

Lefty Specialist Jan 17 2012 09:14 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

The Mets starting outfield for 2012 is shaping up with Jason Bay, Andres Torres and Lucas Duda manning the starting sports and right-handed hitter Scott Hairston coming off the bench. The fifth and final outfield spot looks to be up for grabs between Loewen and fellow lefty Mike Baxter. Man, it's gonna be a long year.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 17 2012 09:35 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

An awful lot seems to be depending on Andres Torres, doesn't it? If he can have a 2010 season instead of a 2011 season I kinda like the OF.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 09:35 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: An awful lot seems to be depending on Andres Torres, doesn't it? If he can have a 2010 season instead of a 2011 season I kinda like the OF. I think Bay is the bigger swing guy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 17 2012 09:38 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I dunno. Unless Bay declines further he's gonna be 'OK' out there. If Torres declines we're gonna have problems.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 09:48 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I dunno. Unless Bay declines further he's gonna be 'OK' out there. If Torres declines we're gonna have problems. Torres is financially disposable. Kirk Nieuwenhuis (or someone else) would be here faster than you can blink. If Bay puts up the awful 2011 numbers, it could be bad out there. if he rebounds even 10% (which is still way under his career average) it'll be pretty good.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2012 11:49 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

i could easily see Torres end up batting 7th-8th (with Tejada and Murphy at the top of the order) if he doesn't hit well initially, and being replaced completely if he continues his decline. Whereas Bay is going to get stuck in the middle of our lineup come hell or high water. I'd say his production is the biggest "?" and "!" in the Mets lineup, and will determine the productivity of the "O", while Santana's health will determine the "D".

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 11:54 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Vic Sage wrote: i could easily see Torres end up batting 7th-8th (with Tejada and Murphy at the top of the order) if he doesn't hit well initially, and being replaced completely if he continues his decline. Whereas Bay is going to get stuck in the middle of our lineup come hell or high water. I'd say his production is the biggest "?" and "!" in the Mets lineup, and will determine the productivity of the "O", while Santana's health will determine the "D". Tejada Murphy sounds likely for 1-2, but either way, I figure it's Wright-Ike-Bay to start 3-4-5, with Duda 6th and possibly overtaking Bay. If Collins gets all L-R-L-R happy, you could probably do Ike-Wright-Duda in that case depending on how they're all doing. But I agree on the swing guys. if both Santana and Bay become ! this team will actually be fairly competitive.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2012 12:07 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ceetar wrote: ...if both Santana and Bay become ! this team will actually be fairly competitive. yeah, i guess that depends on your definition of "competitive". If both give us 80% or so of their career averages, i think we'll be a .500 team, but still nowhere near the playoffs. If one approaches that level and the other remains marginal while tying up ABs or IPs, then we'll be significantly less than a .500 team. If both come up short again, we'll be at the bottom of the NLEast barrel.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 17 2012 12:20 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I think the 2012 Mets could end up being the best last place team they've ever had. And yeah, competitive could mean that you have a good chance to win each game that you play, which could lead to a winning record, but it means a different thing if you mean competing to win a playoff berth. That seems extremely unlikely for the 2012 club. In addition to a lot needing to go right for the Mets, a lot would need to go wrong for four other teams.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 12:24 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I think the 2012 Mets could end up being the best last place team they've ever had. And yeah, competitive could mean that you have a good chance to win each game that you play, which could lead to a winning record, but it means a different thing if you mean competing to win a playoff berth. That seems extremely unlikely for the 2012 club. In addition to a lot needing to go right for the Mets, a lot would need to go wrong for four other teams. That's overstating it a bit, but stranger things have happened. It's not like the Mets are completely devoid of talent.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 17 2012 12:28 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Nor are they, unlike a certain Sgt. Pompiano, devoid of honor. #OldSchool

Edgy MD Jan 17 2012 12:40 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Holy shitski. Where have you gone, John Menso?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 17 2012 01:27 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ceetar wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I think the 2012 Mets could end up being the best last place team they've ever had. And yeah, competitive could mean that you have a good chance to win each game that you play, which could lead to a winning record, but it means a different thing if you mean competing to win a playoff berth. That seems extremely unlikely for the 2012 club. In addition to a lot needing to go right for the Mets, a lot would need to go wrong for four other teams. That's overstating it a bit, but stranger things have happened. It's not like the Mets are completely devoid of talent. Well, no. They're just far more devoid of it than anyone else in their division right now.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 01:36 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Ceetar wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I think the 2012 Mets could end up being the best last place team they've ever had. And yeah, competitive could mean that you have a good chance to win each game that you play, which could lead to a winning record, but it means a different thing if you mean competing to win a playoff berth. That seems extremely unlikely for the 2012 club. In addition to a lot needing to go right for the Mets, a lot would need to go wrong for four other teams. That's overstating it a bit, but stranger things have happened. It's not like the Mets are completely devoid of talent. Well, no. They're just far more devoid of it than anyone else in their division right now. hardly.

Edgy MD Jan 17 2012 01:37 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

The Mets don't lag behind their division rivals in talent. They merely exceed them in mercy.

Lefty Specialist Jan 17 2012 01:53 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Everyone seems to assume Murphy playing second and batting second. While I agree he's a good second place hitter, he will be a flaming, Krakatoa-East-of-Java, disaster in the middle of this infield. At least he will be for the 30 games he plays before he gets hurt again. Tell me that you won't be cringing every time a ball gets hit to second.

attgig Jan 17 2012 01:56 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Murphy actually surprised me the few games he played last year at 2nd. he was better than I thought he would be, albiet, that isn't really saying much. if he can stay healthy, it'll be interesting seeing him in there for a whole season, and we'll see if his bat makes up for the glove there.

attgig Jan 17 2012 02:02 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I think the 2012 Mets could end up being the best last place team they've ever had. And yeah, competitive could mean that you have a good chance to win each game that you play, which could lead to a winning record, but it means a different thing if you mean competing to win a playoff berth. That seems extremely unlikely for the 2012 club. In addition to a lot needing to go right for the Mets, a lot would need to go wrong for four other teams. That's overstating it a bit, but stranger things have happened. It's not like the Mets are completely devoid of talent. Well, no. They're just far more devoid of it than anyone else in their division right now. hardly. not that this is any definitive analysis, but.... yeah, we really are relatively devoid of talent http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/ ... t-showdown The final tally 1. Phillies, 58 points 2. Braves, 56 points 3. Marlins, 49 points 4. Nationals, 48 points 5. Mets, 29 points even if the couple of things that you say happen happens, bay would move up maybe one spot? but Santana isn't going anywhere in his ranking.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 02:05 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

that's pretty much the opposite of definitive analysis. I saw that last week, it's so full of anti-Mets bias and just stupidity I couldn't even make it through the whole thing.

TheOldMole Jan 17 2012 02:13 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Krakatoa was actually west of Java.

Edgy MD Jan 17 2012 02:16 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Lefty Specialist wrote: Everyone seems to assume Murphy playing second and batting second. While I agree he's a good second place hitter, he will be a flaming, Krakatoa-East-of-Java, disaster in the middle of this infield. At least he will be for the 30 games he plays before he gets hurt again. Tell me that you won't be cringing every time a ball gets hit to second. And yet, I kind of love it. As Patrick Flood sees it, it's the first-baseyest team in baseball. - Think about the offense! Think about the offense! Don’t think about what an awful fielding team this is going to be — as part of their regular defensive alignment, the Mets will be running out the worst fielding third basemen in baseball, Jason Bay in left field, and then one-time-first-basemen at first base, second base, right field, and catcher. Tejada, Davis, and Torres can all cover their ground and then some, but it’s hard to imagine those three making up for the rest of the defensive booger-eaters.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 17 2012 02:24 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I think the 2012 Mets could end up being the best last place team they've ever had. And yeah, competitive could mean that you have a good chance to win each game that you play, which could lead to a winning record, but it means a different thing if you mean competing to win a playoff berth. That seems extremely unlikely for the 2012 club. In addition to a lot needing to go right for the Mets, a lot would need to go wrong for four other teams. That's overstating it a bit, but stranger things have happened. It's not like the Mets are completely devoid of talent. Well, no. They're just far more devoid of it than anyone else in their division right now. hardly. Which team's roster in this division has close to the same talent level as that of the Mets? Put another way: leaving emotion aside, which lineup/starting rotation would you not trade for the Mets' in a heartbeat?

Edgy MD Jan 17 2012 02:27 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Emotion aside, I go find a useful past-time.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 02:31 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

this is just off the top of my head, but give me the Mets 8 hitters over the Phillies. It's less obvious without Reyes, but still.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 17 2012 02:41 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

And I suppose you'd take the Mets pitchers over the Phillies too?

Lefty Specialist Jan 17 2012 02:47 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

TheOldMole wrote: Krakatoa was actually west of Java. Well, sure, NOW it is.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 02:49 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And I suppose you'd take the Mets pitchers over the Phillies too? The Phillies pitchers are what got them to 100 wins. The Mets scored more runs than them last year, and had a higher OBP. (That's without adjusting for park factor btw) Although they do seem to turn seemingly crappy relievers into contributors, which seems surprising given the stadium.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 17 2012 02:59 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

So, apart from the dominant rotation, superior 'pen, and the fact that Reyes and Beltran don't live here anymore... you'll take the Mets, right? The Phils, by my estimation, have the better player at 5 of the 8 positions (C, 2B, SS, CF, RF), at least... and I think I'm being generous when I say "at least." [And "this guy says things that I perceive as wrong or negative" doesn't constitute "bias."]

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 04:44 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

So, apart from the dominant rotation, superior 'pen, and the fact that Reyes and Beltran don't live here anymore... you'll take the Mets, right? The Phils, by my estimation, have the better player at 5 of the 8 positions (C, 2B, SS, CF, RF), at least... and I think I'm being generous when I say "at least." [And "this guy says things that I perceive as wrong or negative" doesn't constitute "bias."] calling it writing to the narrative if you want, instead of bias. The inconsistency of it for instance. Steven Strasburg has been here 5 minutes. He's thrown less than 100 innings in his career. He's better than Johan Santana? Oh, you're factoring in injury? Josh Johnson was injured almost all of last season. Here's an injury report from August. Since the end of last season, Johnson has been dealing with the effects of some sort of muscular or capsular issue at the back of his shoulder. Even the full offseason didn't help, as Johnson said it's been sore since spring training. Johnson's heavy workload in the two years since he returned from elbow reconstruction are both positive and negative. The Marlins have to figure out how to heal the issue and to keep it from recurring under a normal workload. Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... z1jlHIrfgr Capsular issue? That's what Johan had repaired. It's certainly not out of the question for me to say Johan, who's already had the injury repaired, could very easily be 'better than' Johnson. whatever that means. Johnson hasn't pitched healthy since late 2010 either. I'll obviously give you Hudson and Halladay. The Mets offense has taken a clear hit, but they're also basically adding a healed-back Wright, Ike Davis and a full season of Lucas Duda. The Phillies have Dominick Brown to look at for improvement on their end, but many of the rest of guys are trending downwards and aging. Especially given the state of the two teams right now, I absolutely would rather take the Mets offense. That's the question I was answering. It certainly seems to have more growth potential.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 17 2012 05:36 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I feel like I'm arguing with a billboard-- I keep arguing different things, and yelling louder, and it just says what it says.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 05:39 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I feel like I'm arguing with a billboard-- I keep arguing different things, and yelling louder, and it just says what it says. sorry, why are we changing the argument again? Maybe stop putting words in my mouth and pretend I'm arguing something different? You asked which lineup I wouldn't trade for the Mets. I gave you one. I think the reasons I laid out were pretty fair.

smg58 Jan 17 2012 06:11 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

The Mets offense really is better than a lot of people think, the absence of a leadoff hitter notwithstanding. They outscored the Phillies last year in spite of the park, losing Davis for most of the year, another off year from Wright, and getting basically nothing from Bay. Pitching and defense are other matters entirely, however. I fear that bringing in the walls will expose our pitchers more than it helps our hitters. You would have to think the park is the only reason Wright and Bay have underproduced to think this will work in our favor with the team as it's currently structured, and I just don't see it. I'm not expecting miracles from Murphy at second, but I'm not expecting anything biblical in the other direction either. He'll be below average, but we haven't been above average at second since Valentin in 06 and Murphy can at least hit. I'm much more worried about Duda.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 17 2012 06:30 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Really, it's more my fault. I shouldn't ask-- much less expect-- something I know you can't provide, and I shouldn't get frustrated when you can't provide it, much less go vaguely ad hominem. Going point-by-point... 1) Strasburg pitched-- and pitched very, very well-- at the end of last season. He seems entirely in line to outperform-- or at least give a more predictable positive performance-- than Johan. Santana HAD a capsular issue, has spent more than a year recovering, and appears at this point to be unable to contribute from Day One (at least); Johnson MAY have a capsular issue, pitched into May last year, and pitched live BP a handful of times. Impartial third parties look at the three and rank them without prejudice, and this strikes you as "writing to the narrative;" it strikes me as "a fair evaluation by an impartial third party." 2) The Mets offense has taken a clear hit, but they're also basically adding a healed-back Wright, Ike Davis and a full season of Lucas Duda. Wright has declined for three years running with both bat and glove. Davis may not come back 100 percent, and if he does, he almost definitely won't be quite the player he was at the beginning of last year. Duda has some room to grow as a batter, granted, but is kindasorta wretched with the glove and-- at best-- will match Hunter Pence's offensive value. The Phillies have Dominick Brown to look at for improvement on their end, but many of the rest of guys are trending downwards and aging. Mayberry. Full season of Pence. Wigginton instead of Rule 5 guys backing up the corners. A Jim Thome that OPSed .838 and slugged 15 HR in less than 300 AB. They're all likely better bets than, say, a 70-percent-of-prime Jason Bay or a Josh Thole that matches Ruiz with bat/glove. Especially given the state of the two teams right now, I absolutely would rather take the Mets offense. That's the question I was answering. It certainly seems to have more growth potential. The Mets were a pretty good offense last year; they have lost about 1/3 of what made them a good offense. I'll say this as politely as I can muster: your conclusion makes me think that you either are experiencing really boring hallucinations or have serious vision problems.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 17 2012 06:50 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Jan 17 2012 07:13 PM

smg58 wrote: The Mets offense really is better than a lot of people think, the absence of a leadoff hitter notwithstanding. They outscored the Phillies last year in spite of the park, losing Davis for most of the year, another off year from Wright, and getting basically nothing from Bay. Pitching and defense are other matters entirely, however. I fear that bringing in the walls will expose our pitchers more than it helps our hitters. You would have to think the park is the only reason Wright and Bay have underproduced to think this will work in our favor with the team as it's currently structured, and I just don't see it. I'm not expecting miracles from Murphy at second, but I'm not expecting anything biblical in the other direction either. He'll be below average, but we haven't been above average at second since Valentin in 06 and Murphy can at least hit. I'm much more worried about Duda. I. The Mets are merely carving the cavern out of that cavernous ridiculousity they play in. They're not transforming Citi Field into a Little League-sized diamond, or even a modern Major League bandbox like Citizen's Bank Park. If Met pitchers can't pitch in CF II, that'll say more about their shortcomings than about the shorter dimensions. II. If it turns out that some Met batters altered their swings to combat Citi Field's daunting dimensions, then the new configuration should help the Mets more than their visitors, who were just passing through and, presumably, had no reason to screw around with their swings.

Ceetar Jan 17 2012 06:56 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

1. Strasburg threw 24 innings. That's practically nothing. Miguel Batista pitched to a 2.64 ERA in 30 IP with the Mets. Strasburg is of the same ilk as Tim Tebow, in terms of ESPNs opinion of him. [indent:wh5ah5pl]btw, if we're going to annoint rookies on small sample sizes, Lucas Duda had a higher OPS than every Phillie except Pence and was only .002 behind Mayberry. He was better than Werth and Heyward. It's this sort of inconsistency in analysis that makes me reject it.[/indent:wh5ah5pl] Santana does _not_ appear unable to contribute from day one. That's complete speculation. "He's been throwing and doing his long-toss program," "By mid-month, he will be on the mound, making his progression, like our other pitchers. The shoulder strength is good. I think his spirits are good. Everything is pointing in the right direction. We can keep our fingers crossed that the injuries of last year are behind him, because we need him to lead our rotation." "missed a majority of 2011 with right shoulder inflammation. The plan is for the pitcher to be at full speed, with no restrictions, when pitchers and catchers begin workouts in Fla." Those quotes could easily be about Santana, but they're about Johnson. Yes, he pitched into May but he was shut down late the year before and says he was in pain throughout spring training and until he was shut down. But I'm sure he's fine. No red flags there, of course not. 2. I'll take my chances with Wright considering he played with a broken back for a good portion of last year. He did seem to be making some strides in the second half. There's also the "possible contract year" thing too. I don't see any indication that Davis may not come back 100%. Roy Halladay could trip on his way to his car too and break his ankle. He's healthy. Why wouldn't he be quite the player he was at the beginning of last year? There's a lot unknown about Ike Davis, but I dont know that there's any reason to think he can't do it. Duda has a .815 career OPS, Pence's is .828. Maybe the best he can do is improve .13, but considering he was at .852 last year, I wouldn't bet on it. Thome hasn't played the field since 2004. He's 41. I'm sure he can probably still mash it a bit, but hard to know what the added load of playing the field will do to him. And I imagine even I could probably drag bunt for a hit with him there. I'm willing to wager on this. The Mets will score more runs than the Phillies. Even ignoring park factor.

smg58 Jan 17 2012 07:21 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

batmagadanleadoff wrote: If Met pitchers can't pitch in CF II, that'll say more about their mediocrity than about the new dimensions. I don't think the new dimensions will turn the place into a hitter's park, but what barely passed as mediocrity last year could look a lot worse this year.

Ashie62 Jan 18 2012 01:40 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Johan Santana..128 million dollars of nothing but a hand job. I personally, will be shocked if he is on time or breaks 100 innings. Berry Berry bad signing.

attgig Jan 18 2012 02:14 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ceetar wrote: I'm willing to wager on this. The Mets will score more runs than the Phillies. Even ignoring park factor. $20 to the charity of the winner's choice? I'm in on that wager.

Vic Sage Jan 18 2012 03:21 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

count me in, too.

Ashie62 Jan 18 2012 04:57 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

attgig wrote: Ceetar wrote: I'm willing to wager on this. The Mets will score more runs than the Phillies. Even ignoring park factor. $20 to the charity of the winner's choice? I'm in on that wager. You really think that, or is it from the heart?

Ceetar Jan 18 2012 05:27 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I"m not sure how to make it a 3 or 4 way bet, but sounds good to me.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 18 2012 07:40 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Just for support I will join #TeamCeetar, and will take on Vics call for action.

Edgy MD Jan 18 2012 08:22 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Beyond the park advantage, the Phils' offense has the advantage of batting against the Mets' pitching staff, while the Mets' hitters choke up against the Phils' pitchers for 18 games. The Mets' offense has the advantage of being awesome.

Ceetar Jan 18 2012 08:25 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Edgy DC wrote: Beyond the park advantage, the Phils' offense has the advantage of batting against the Mets' pitching staff, while the Mets' hitters choke up against the Phils' pitchers for 18 games. The Mets' offense has the advantage of being awesome. yeah, but Cole Hamels is basically Miguel Batista when he faces the Mets.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 18 2012 11:25 PM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

I'm in, too. Who's for what, now?

attgig Jan 19 2012 07:47 AM Re: Possible 2012 Outfield

Ashie62 wrote: attgig wrote: Ceetar wrote: I'm willing to wager on this. The Mets will score more runs than the Phillies. Even ignoring park factor. $20 to the charity of the winner's choice? I'm in on that wager. You really think that, or is it from the heart? think that? yes from the heart? not sure what that means, but yes.