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Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

G-Fafif Aug 31 2011 08:54 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 31 2011 09:13 AM

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 8/30/2011 REYES .335 Braun .331

batmagadanleadoff Aug 31 2011 09:02 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun

It's Reyes against the NL for the league batting championship, not necessarily Reyes against Braun, who might drop down a few slots, or drop out and become irrelevant.

G-Fafif Aug 31 2011 09:12 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun

True, though I'm betting against Murphy making a late surge.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 31 2011 09:18 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Depends. How good is he at black arts?

G-Fafif Aug 31 2011 09:20 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Depends. How good is he at black arts? If black arts include catching fly balls, then not very good at all.

seawolf17 Aug 31 2011 09:26 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

G-Fafif wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Depends. How good is he at black arts? If black arts include catching fly balls, then not very good at all. That almost made me spit coffee out my nose.

metirish Aug 31 2011 10:11 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun has played 124 games, Reyes 100.......if Reyes played the rest out he would be at what 130+.....by comparison Fielder has played 136 games.

G-Fafif Sep 01 2011 12:00 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 02 2011 04:18 AM

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 8/31/2011 REYES .336 Braun .333

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 01 2011 07:19 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun's also gained ground on him in the triples race, albeit somewhat unintentionally. [youtube]QmURgGbd7xM[/youtube]

Benjamin Grimm Sep 01 2011 06:13 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun 1 for 5 today, drops to .331

G-Fafif Sep 02 2011 04:21 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/1/2011 REYES .335 Braun .331

G-Fafif Sep 03 2011 03:47 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/2/2011 REYES .333 Braun .332

G-Fafif Sep 03 2011 10:37 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/3/2011 REYES .333 Braun .331

Benjamin Grimm Sep 04 2011 03:58 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Uh oh... Braun went 3 for 3 today. Up to .335.

G-Fafif Sep 04 2011 06:12 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/4/2011 Braun .335 REYES .333 Nobody else is close.

Edgy MD Sep 05 2011 05:21 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

A 2-5 afternoon gets Ryan Braun from .33403361344537815126050420168067 to .33471933471933471933471933471933.

G-Fafif Sep 06 2011 02:50 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/5/2011 Braun .335 REYES .332

G-Fafif Sep 07 2011 04:44 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/6/2011 REYES .334 Braun .333

Edgy MD Sep 07 2011 05:41 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Thank Heaven for extra innings.

sharpie Sep 07 2011 01:34 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Neither the Mets nor the Brewers (in either league) have had a batting champion.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 07 2011 02:03 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I would have guessed Paul Molitor.

sharpie Sep 07 2011 02:20 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I would've too. He came in second twice, in 1987 when he hit .353 to Wade Boggs' .363 and in 1993 when he hit .332 to John Olerud's .363. The way to beat Paul Molitor in a batting race was to bat .363.

dgwphotography Sep 07 2011 03:06 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

sharpie wrote: I would've too. He came in second twice, in 1987 when he hit .353 to Wade Boggs' .363 and in 1993 when he hit .332 to John Olerud's .363. The way to beat Paul Molitor in a batting race was to bat .363. Looking up his numbers, I found it more than a little strange that after his .353 in 1987, his next 5 highest averages came at 34 and older...

Edgy MD Sep 07 2011 06:16 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

DHing keeps you healthy. Robin Yount hit .331 in 1982, one point behind Willie Wilson. Cecil Cooper hit .352 in 1980 --- an amazing number that he elected to put up the year George Brett hit .390. Also good for second. I'm guessing the Wallbangers didn't like Whitey's Royals.

Ceetar Sep 07 2011 06:47 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Reyes 1/2 2BB up to .335 Braun 0/1 so far down to .332

Ceetar Sep 07 2011 08:24 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/7/2011 REYES .335 Braun .332

Benjamin Grimm Sep 08 2011 04:38 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Jose now has enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title.

G-Fafif Sep 09 2011 05:40 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/8/2011 REYES .335 Braun .329 Murphy has fallen out of the top five. Slacker.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 09 2011 08:39 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Eighth inning in Milwaukee, and the Brewers have only four hits. And Ryan Braun has two of them. 2 for 4 so far, and at .331.

G-Fafif Sep 09 2011 10:49 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/9/2011 REYES .335 Braun .331 Mets posted the race on the CitiVision board after Jose was intentionally walked in the ninth. Can't decide whether that's jinxy.

G-Fafif Sep 10 2011 11:08 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/10/2011 REYES .333 Braun .331 [youtube]Wro3bqi4Eb8[/youtube]

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2011 02:56 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun 0 for 3 so far today. Down to .329.

G-Fafif Sep 12 2011 04:21 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/11/2011 REYES .332 Braun .331 For a dude with a 14-game hitting streak, Jose ain't gainin' much traction -- only one hit per game in 12 of the 14 contests.

G-Fafif Sep 13 2011 03:29 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/12/2011 Braun .331 REYES .329 Braun sits on his ass, Reyes's hitting streak and batting average leadership come to an end.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 13 2011 04:06 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Huh. Maybe Reyes should try sitting on Braun's ass.

G-Fafif Sep 13 2011 07:15 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Huh. Maybe Reyes should try sitting on Braun's ass. If the WWF settled batting races.

G-Fafif Sep 14 2011 04:47 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/13/2011 REYES .333 Braun .329

G-Fafif Sep 15 2011 01:56 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/14/2011 REYES .331 Braun .329

G-Fafif Sep 16 2011 04:48 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/15/2011 REYES .331 Braun .329 Cleverly, neither man played yesterday.

G-Fafif Sep 17 2011 08:27 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/16/2011 REYES .334 Braun .330

Fman99 Sep 17 2011 07:57 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Encouraging. Something worth rooting for, would love to see Reyes bring home the Mets first ever batting title.

G-Fafif Sep 18 2011 05:26 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/17/2011 Braun .333 REYES .332 The guy on a team with everything to play for got three hits, homered and drove in four. The guy on a team with little to play four went hitless and may be rested today.

G-Fafif Sep 18 2011 09:43 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Reyes indeed being rested today. Damn considerate of Collins not to run him into ground in these potentially last days of Jose.

Ashie62 Sep 18 2011 11:01 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Gotta protect that hammy, right?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 18 2011 01:15 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun 3 for 4 so far today. Up to .336.

G-Fafif Sep 18 2011 04:20 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/18/2011 Braun .336 REYES .331

Frayed Knot Sep 18 2011 09:43 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun's last three games: 8 for 13 including 3 HRs

Benjamin Grimm Sep 19 2011 08:31 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun 0 for 4 so far today. Looks like he may not bat again. Average now at .333.

G-Fafif Sep 20 2011 05:22 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/19/2011 Braun .333 REYES .331

Ceetar Sep 20 2011 06:54 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I think the two* days off for Reyes is going to propel him into a hot streak.

G-Fafif Sep 21 2011 06:11 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/20/2011 Braun .332 REYES .331

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 21 2011 02:40 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

0-for-4 so far today, and 1-for-13 for the Cubs series. Braunie's down to a rounded-up .330.

Edgy MD Sep 21 2011 03:00 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braunie, you're doing a great job.

metsguyinmichigan Sep 22 2011 04:37 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Like the 2007 and 2008 team, Reyes is collapsing at the end.

G-Fafif Sep 22 2011 05:56 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/21/2011 REYES .330 (.330097) Braun .330 (.329670)

Benjamin Grimm Sep 22 2011 06:43 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Seven games remaining for the Mets, six for the Brewers. (That inequity will end today; the Mets play this afternoon and Milwaukee is off.)

G-Fafif Sep 22 2011 07:34 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Four of final seven games are day games. Jose in day games: .352 Jose in night games: .322

G-Fafif Sep 22 2011 05:52 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/22/2011 Braun .330 (.329670) REYES .329 (.329480)

metirish Sep 22 2011 05:59 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

G-Fafif wrote: Four of final seven games are day games. Jose in day games: .352 Jose in night games: .322 and gay dames,how does he do in those?

Ashie62 Sep 22 2011 10:28 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

metirish wrote: Four of final seven games are day games. Jose in day games: .352 Jose in night games: .322 and gay dames,how does he do in those? I'm hoping he doesn't do those.

G-Fafif Sep 23 2011 05:24 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

batmagadanleadoff wrote: It's Reyes against the NL for the league batting championship, not necessarily Reyes against Braun. Don't look now... NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/22/2011 Braun .330 (.329670) REYES .329 (.329480) Kemp .326 (.326388)

G-Fafif Sep 24 2011 07:32 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through 9/23/2011 REYES .329 (.329480) Braun .329 (.329091) Kemp .326 (.325862) Stakes? Intrigue? Plenty. Reyes, of course, is trying to become first Mets batting champion (and leave/stay on a high note). Braun is trying to become Milwaukee's first batting champion since Hank Aaron in 1959 did it as a Brave (or the first Brewish as well as Jewish NL batting leader...more on the latter here). And Kemp's got some crazy idea about winning the first triple crown in 44 years (leads in RBI, tied in HR, less than .004 out of BA).

G-Fafif Sep 24 2011 09:01 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

This thing, with the monitoring of at-bat after at-bat in two, now three different cities has a real old-timey feel to it.

G-Fafif Sep 24 2011 03:12 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through Afternoon Games of 9/24/2011 REYES .330 (.329502) Braun .329 (.329091) Kemp .326 (.325862)

G-Fafif Sep 25 2011 05:39 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through Games of 9/24/2011 Braun .331 (.330922) REYES .330 (.329502) Kemp .325 (.325342)

Edgy MD Sep 25 2011 03:13 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Ninth inning single today by Reyes gets him back up to .331.

MFS62 Sep 25 2011 04:26 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

And with a 2 for 3 today, Braun is at .333. Later

G-Fafif Sep 25 2011 07:31 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through Games of 9/25/2011 Braun .333 (.332734) REYES .331 (.330798) Kemp at .324. No triple crown for you!

Frayed Knot Sep 25 2011 07:41 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

G-Fafif wrote: Kemp at .324. No triple crown for you! Almost certainly no TC for Kemp - but that's gotta be about the quietest TC quest in recent memory. It's almost like he fell off the radar after his great 1st half and then snuck back into the verge of winning it before his 1-for-5 today.

Edgy MD Sep 26 2011 08:21 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through Games of 9/26/2011 REYES .334 (.333962) Braun .333 (.332734) Another at-bat possible.

G-Fafif Sep 26 2011 10:51 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through Games of 9/26/2011 REYES .334 (.333962) Braun .334 (.333931)

G-Fafif Sep 28 2011 04:29 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE Through Games of 9/27/2011 REYES .336 (.335821) Braun .335 (.334526)

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 05:49 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Can the Mets trade Dickey to the Pirates for a day?

Gwreck Sep 28 2011 06:29 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

The Brewers ALMOST had the #2 seed clinched, as the Dodgers took a 3 run lead over the D-Backs into the bottom of the 10th. Dodgers closer Javy Guevera gave up a game-winning grand slam to Ryan Roberts of the D-Backs however. Arizona remains 1 game behind the Brewers. Tie goes to Arizona based on head-to-head record. Unfortunately, Braun still has something to play for. Had the Brewers clinched the #2 seed, chances are that he might sit.

attgig Sep 28 2011 06:46 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

down to the final day. a reason to watch the game!

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 07:21 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I'm sure I'm far from correct, but it seems like the worst year for closers ever. (Or the best year from come-from-behind ninth-inning victories, depending on your perspective.)

TransMonk Sep 28 2011 07:40 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Lots of important games today. I guess that's what MLB wants.

HahnSolo Sep 28 2011 10:02 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Acosta/Parnell's inability to shut the door ended up giving Reyes 2 more ABs. Going 1-2 in those spots raised his BA from 335205 to 335820. Those could be 2 difference-making ABs. He also was on deck with Turner at the plate. Without the DP or game-winning hit, he might have gotten another chance last night.

Vic Sage Sep 28 2011 10:39 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Vic Sage wrote: TransMonk wrote: Collins said that if Reyes gets two early hits, he'll probably be pulled so for an ovation (goodbye). is this his attempt to kiss Jose's ass, to try and help the contract process for the offseason? it's bullshit, but whatever, Yogi. Ted Williams' head is spinning in its freezer.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 28 2011 11:37 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Okay, Jose ends the season with 181 hits in 537 at bats. (.3370577) Ryan Braun goes into tonight's game with 187 hits in 559 at bats. (.3345259) Assuming that Braun gets no more than 6 at bats tonight, here's what he has to do to pass Jose: 3 for 3, 3 for 4, 4 for 4, 4 for 5, 4 for 6, 5 for 5, 5 for 6, 6 for 6. A 3 for 5 will not be enough. It would leave him at .3368794.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 11:39 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Do they count the decimal places beyond the third, or do they call that a tie at .337?

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2011 11:40 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

No ties unless there's an actual tie.

dgwphotography Sep 28 2011 11:43 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Just on principle, I want Braun to go 3 for 3 tonight...

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 11:51 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Thinking the same thing. Wouldn't mind Kemp going 7-7, as well.

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2011 11:51 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

dgwphotography wrote: Just on principle, I want Braun to go 3 for 3 tonight... I want him to go 3-for-3, then stay in the game and get another hit on top of it. Something else about rounding off BAs that I heard a couple days ago while listening to a StL broadcast. If you hit say .29957 it goes into the books as .300, but if there's some kind of consecutive streak thing going the same average would NOT count keeping that streak alive. Specifically they were talking about Pujols who has a .300+ BA in each of his first 10 seasons but has been hovering around the .300 mark much of the 2nd half and goes into today at .29965

Benjamin Grimm Sep 28 2011 11:56 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

The classy thing would be for Braun to go 3 for 4, and then stay in the game for the fifth at bat, putting it all on the line. What Terry did today was classless and gutless, but you know what? I still want Jose to win that batting title. (I would, and will, feel differently if I find out that Jose had asked to be removed if he got that first hit.)

TransMonk Sep 28 2011 12:09 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Benjamin Grimm wrote: What Terry did today was classless and gutless, but you know what? I still want Jose to win that batting title. This. Fuck Braun. He's playing for something REAL tonight...and he'll be playing this weekend, has a chance to win an MVP and possibly a ring. If he goes 3 for 3, I'll applaud him. But he's got so much more to play for than a batting title.

holychicken Sep 28 2011 12:39 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I guess I am utterly alone on this, but I think it was a nice thing to do. What it comes down to me is that he was looking out for his player and the fans of his team (although, it seems to have pissed off a number of fans). I want a manager to do that.

TransMonk Sep 28 2011 01:17 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Even if Reyes would have gone 1 for 4, Braun would still need a 2 for 3 or 2 for 4 to win. Let's see how close he gets.

seawolf17 Sep 28 2011 01:21 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

dgwphotography wrote: Just on principle, I want Braun to go 3 for 3 tonight... Edgy DC wrote: Thinking the same thing. Wouldn't mind Kemp going 7-7, as well. That's kinda dooshy, no? You root for your team, and our guy, who we've all been fellating all year. Let one good thing -- a batting title -- happen for this fecking team. Screw Ryan Braun. I hope the Brewers play eighteen innings and he goes 0-for-8 with 8 Ks.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 01:25 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I stop rooting for my team the moment honor gets up and walks out the door. And I haven't --- ahem! --- fellated anybody. Why? What have you heard?

metsmarathon Sep 28 2011 01:29 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

pulling reyes to help him get the title i don't mind so much. its nice for reyes to get, and its nice for mets fans as a whole to have their guy, who we all want back, to get the thing. it just sucks hard for all those people who went out to the game, many of whom may have missed the one sole appearance. and it sucks for the folks at home who have to suffer through fat mike without even the hope of another jose josejosejose jose jose at bat. personally, i don't want braun to win it. i want reyes to get the title. and if not him, i want matt kemp to go 8 for 8 or whatever he has to do, and hit a few homers along the way, to get a triple crown. if my guy ain't winning hte batting title, i want him to lose to a guy who just won the fucking triple crown. i also want to see another MVP award go to a guy on a losing team, to further whittle down that silly little notion, and kemp getting the triple would help that mightily, i would think.

RealityChuck Sep 28 2011 01:45 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Maybe they should put an asterisk beside the number if Jose wins. This was gutless and a disappointment for the fans. Now his record will be tainted (unless Braun goes 0 for 4, so it wouldn't have mattered, but even then, this was the classless thing to do). Maybe MLB should pull a Taffy Wright again (Wright won the batting championship in 1938 according to the rules of the time, but Jimmie Foxx was named the winner anyway, since Foxx had twice the ABs).

seawolf17 Sep 28 2011 01:47 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Ah, get out of here, tainted. Did he reach the AB minimum? Then we're good. He's not the first guy to be pulled before the end of the season to "preserve" a statistical milestone or achievement, nor will he be the last. I'm not saying it wasn't a disappointment -- but that, for me, entirely stems from it being potentially his last game with the franchise, not because of a batting title.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 01:49 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Just the first Met, and that's where the issue gains a new complexion for me.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 28 2011 01:53 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

MFYs did the same thing with Bernie Williams a few years back. It was weak and stupid then, but so was the whole notion of winning a "batting title."

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2011 02:04 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

It's not tainted, just the way it was handled makes the ending less satisfying that it should have been (if it in fact comes to be). It's also not 1958 anymore when BA was the holy grail of offensive baseball so I barely pay attention to who the "batting champion" is these days (couldn't tell you who won any of the last five in either league) which is why I'd rather my guy lose it on the field than win it on the bench.

TransMonk Sep 28 2011 02:07 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Per Metsblog, Terry said Jose asked before the game to be taken out if he got a hit, and so Collins met that request, because ‘he deserves that respect. However, Collins says he felt terrible about the move, knowing fans paid good money to see him play. “I respect the game enough to know people came here to see Jose Reyes,” Collins explained. According to Collins, he felt he earned the respect of his players this summer, and to not repay that respect by ignoring Jose’s request could jeopardize ‘what was built.

seawolf17 Sep 28 2011 02:09 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

That's kinda horseshit reasoning, no? You're in charge, Terry.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 02:13 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

If you don't like it, don't do it, but going ahead and doing it and then throwing Reyes under the bus? What happened to the playing the game right? I'm virtually sure Reyes will deny this, and it will impact negotiations.

metirish Sep 28 2011 02:14 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Reyes asking out somehow makes this stink even more , very disappointing.

TransMonk Sep 28 2011 02:17 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Him asking out and then bunting for a single seems very douchey. This is the type of attitude that leads me to believe he can be bought by the highest bidder this winter.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 28 2011 02:19 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Here's a season that ends with a crisp shutout and a (potential) batting title by a longtime favorite player, and the Mets find a way to give it a sour taste. Nice going! This is the kind of thing that makes me say to myself, "I'm 48 years old. Why do I care about this shit?"

seawolf17 Sep 28 2011 02:22 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Here's a season that ends with a crisp shutout and a (potential) batting title by a longtime favorite player, and the Mets find a way to give it a sour taste. Nice going! This is the kind of thing that makes me say to myself, "I'm 48 years old. Why do I care about this shit?" Not much easier at 35, believe me.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 28 2011 02:37 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

TransMonk wrote: Per Metsblog, Terry said Jose asked before the game to be taken out if he got a hit, and so Collins met that request, because ‘he deserves that respect. However, Collins says he felt terrible about the move, knowing fans paid good money to see him play. “I respect the game enough to know people came here to see Jose Reyes,” Collins explained. According to Collins, he felt he earned the respect of his players this summer, and to not repay that respect by ignoring Jose’s request could jeopardize ‘what was built. What would Derek Jeter have done?

bmfc1 Sep 28 2011 03:03 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Jose Reyes is trending nationwide on Twitter and most are very anti-Jose, including nasty ones from Jim Rome and Greg Zaun. I guess when Braun sat out on Monday when he had the lead, it was OK.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 03:08 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

When you offend Ryan Braun, you offend Greg Zaun, as well as Mo Vaughn, Wallace Shawn, and P.M. Dawn.

TransMonk Sep 28 2011 03:23 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

BOC!!

MFS62 Sep 28 2011 03:34 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

batmagadanleadoff wrote: TransMonk wrote: Per Metsblog, Terry said Jose asked before the game to be taken out if he got a hit, and so Collins met that request, because ‘he deserves that respect. However, Collins says he felt terrible about the move, knowing fans paid good money to see him play. What would Derek Jeter have done? Michael Kay was dumping on Jose. He said he could be ok if the Yanks sat Jeter so he could finish at .300, but what Jose did was not ok. Kay's just jealous that Reyes is better than Jeter. Fuck him. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 28 2011 03:52 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

bmfc1 wrote: Jose Reyes is trending nationwide on Twitter and most are very anti-Jose, including nasty ones from Jim Rome and Greg Zaun. I guess when Braun sat out on Monday when he had the lead, it was OK. A lot of "classless," "disgrace," "piece of sh^t," and the like. Which strikes me as, y'know, a little bit harsh.

bmfc1 Sep 28 2011 03:59 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

CJ Wilson--STFU: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/ ... tect-title

Vic Sage Sep 28 2011 04:01 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Terry said Jose asked before the game to be taken out if he got a hit, and so Collins met that request, because ‘he deserves that respect. However, Collins says he felt terrible about the move, knowing fans paid good money to see him play. great, Yogi. throw Reyes under the bus just as the season ends and contract negotiations are going to start. You couldn't have taken the bullet on this, ya cuntbunter? Or better yet, just shut up?

metirish Sep 28 2011 04:07 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

bmfc1 wrote: CJ Wilson--STFU: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/ ... tect-title from the article, I vaguely remember this 2003 AL: Bill Mueller. Entering the last day, Mueller was at .327, Derek Jeter was at .326, and Mueller's Boston teammate Manny Ramirez was at .325. Mueller and Ramirez didn't start for Boston. Jeter went 0-for-3 for the Yankees to drop to .324. Mueller pinch-hit in the eighth inning -- but only after Jeter was already 0-for-3. Mueller finished at .326 to win the title

Ashie62 Sep 28 2011 04:23 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

TransMonk wrote: Him asking out and then bunting for a single seems very douchey. This is the type of attitude that leads me to believe he can be bought by the highest bidder this winter. This 100%...First inning?

TheOldMole Sep 28 2011 05:27 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Does Terry feel terrible about every other regular he's given the day off to during September so he can look at the callups? Why has this non-issue become an issue?

Willets Point Sep 28 2011 05:57 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

TheOldMole wrote: Does Terry feel terrible about every other regular he's given the day off to during September so he can look at the callups? Why has this non-issue become an issue? Seriously, people just need something to be angry about.

A Boy Named Seo Sep 28 2011 06:02 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

metirish wrote: CJ Wilson--STFU: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/ ... tect-title from the article, I vaguely remember this 2003 AL: Bill Mueller. Entering the last day, Mueller was at .327, Derek Jeter was at .326, and Mueller's Boston teammate Manny Ramirez was at .325. Mueller and Ramirez didn't start for Boston. Jeter went 0-for-3 for the Yankees to drop to .324. Mueller pinch-hit in the eighth inning -- but only after Jeter was already 0-for-3. Mueller finished at .326 to win the title That article reminded me how forgettable and completely unimportant winning a battle title is.

metirish Sep 28 2011 06:30 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Ha, so true Seo, Braun grounded out in his first AB.

metsmarathon Sep 28 2011 06:31 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

i'd like to see the list of hitters who, when locked in such a tight race, and leading, [u:25vq8da8]did [/u:25vq8da8]take the field on the final day.

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2011 06:56 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

metsmarathon wrote: i'd like to see the list of hitters who, when locked in such a tight race, and leading, did take the field on the final day. A number of hitters have done the same over the years. We (me anyway) might not like this but it's hardly the first time. Jose Reyes is trending nationwide on Twitter and most are very anti-Jose, including nasty ones from Jim Rome and Greg Zaun. Fuck Jim Rome, and every other ESPN-ite who only pays attention to baseball when they find something to knock about it. And if he hates this then I'm suddenly changing my mind.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 06:57 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Willets Point wrote: TheOldMole wrote: Does Terry feel terrible about every other regular he's given the day off to during September so he can look at the callups? Why has this non-issue become an issue? Seriously, people just need something to be angry about. This isn't true. How about giving me some credit?

Willets Point Sep 28 2011 06:59 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Willets Point wrote: TheOldMole wrote: Does Terry feel terrible about every other regular he's given the day off to during September so he can look at the callups? Why has this non-issue become an issue? Seriously, people just need something to be angry about. This isn't true. How about giving me some credit? How about you chill out?

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2011 07:10 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun is 0-fer-2 He was also the (pre-scheduled) guest on ESPN's PTI* program today. He refused to take the bash-Reyes bait offered him and also claimed he'd be in there tonight for every AB no matter the score or his progress (easy to say, tempting to back out on if circumstances dictate). Came across as a decent guy even if dressed in his usual douche-wear (leather jacket over t-shirt). * PTI led with the Reyes story which, considering that they rarely lead with anything but football or LeBron, represents a big departure for them.

Vince Coleman Firecracker Sep 28 2011 07:11 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun starts 0-2, basically guaranteeing Reyes will win the title. Karma? Not so much.

themetfairy Sep 28 2011 07:41 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun shouldn't be playing on Rosh Hashanah anyway.

Frayed Knot Sep 28 2011 07:43 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

If you can post, he can play.

themetfairy Sep 28 2011 07:47 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

That only counts when you guys pay me to post.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2011 07:59 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Willets Point wrote: Willets Point wrote: TheOldMole wrote: Does Terry feel terrible about every other regular he's given the day off to during September so he can look at the callups? Why has this non-issue become an issue? Seriously, people just need something to be angry about. This isn't true. How about giving me some credit? How about you chill out? So, that's a no? Did I post something terribly off-balance?

TransMonk Sep 28 2011 08:25 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun 0 for 3. Point moot. Even if Jose played the whole game and never got another hit, he'd still be champion. I'd rather be going to the playoffs.

G-Fafif Sep 28 2011 10:24 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

NATIONAL LEAGUE BATTING RACE FINAL - 2011 REYES, NYM .337 Braun, MIL .332 Jose Reyes of the New York Mets is the National League Batting Champion for 2011 -- for all of 2011.

Ceetar Sep 29 2011 12:42 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

metsmarathon wrote: i'd like to see the list of hitters who, when locked in such a tight race, and leading, did take the field on the final day. Nevermind ones playing meaningless games with a not 100% hamstring and having already hit .486 or so over the last seven days to create that lead?

metirish Sep 29 2011 04:12 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Congrats Jose.....hope you have a few more of these in a Mets uni.

themetfairy Sep 29 2011 06:26 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Here's yesterday's hit -

holychicken Sep 29 2011 06:51 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Willets Point wrote: Seriously, people just need something to be angry about. This is my position. It seems to me that Mets fans don't want to be happy that something good happened to them. They want want to be miserable. Seriously, does a 75 win season or a 76 win season really make a difference? Is anyone (who didn't have money riding on it) really going to look back on this season and say "thank GOD we had 76 wins instead of 75!"? Jose Reyes played to win the only thing that had remotely any type of meaning for the Mets this season. He did what gave him the best shot of winning the battle title, giving Mets fans and the organization something they have never had before. I am glad he did the smart thing and put winning above some "honor" and a tradition that doesn't exist.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 07:15 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

holychicken wrote: Seriously, does a 75 win season or a 76 win season really make a difference? Is anyone (who didn't have money riding on it) really going to look back on this season and say "thank GOD we had 76 wins instead of 75!"? Has anybody made this argument? holychicken wrote: Jose Reyes played to win the only thing that had remotely any type of meaning for the Mets this season. He did what gave him the best shot of winning the battle title, giving Mets fans and the organization something they have never had before. I am glad he did the smart thing and put winning above some "honor" and a tradition that doesn't exist. I disagree with you on what has meaning. I also disagree that putting winning a batting average title above honor is good. You put "honor" in quotes, so we apparently disagree on what is honorable. I'd be happy to discuss that as well.

MFS62 Sep 29 2011 07:20 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Nobody is making much of when Wade Boggs sat out the last 4 days of a season and won the batting title. Later

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 07:27 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Nobody is talking about Albert Belle's corked bats, either. It's not exactly a current issue. Neither is anybody suggesting that Jose Reyes is the first battling average titlist to sit out.

HahnSolo Sep 29 2011 07:50 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Well, you knew this was coming. Who had Rob Parker in the "Reyes isn't Jeter" sweepstakes? [url]http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7032587/new-york-mets-shortstop-jose-reyes-cheated-team-fans-exiting-season-finale-early

Frayed Knot Sep 29 2011 07:57 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

MFS62 wrote: Nobody is making much of when Wade Boggs sat out the last 4 days of a season and won the batting title. They did at the time. I remember calling him "chicken" (in reference to his eating habits) was a big thing among Yankee fans. On the other hand he also had a sore hamstring and a post-season to rest up for.

TransMonk Sep 29 2011 07:58 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

What a completely unnecessary article. How many batting titles does Jeter have again?

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 08:03 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

It was Mattingly chasing him in the batting average race. OF COURSE, people made a big deal.

metsmarathon Sep 29 2011 08:10 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

if i had the time and the inclination, i'd really like to play with rotosheet or bbref and take a look at the yearly batting average winners, and how they played their final game relative to their respective playoff situations and the batting title race. i know there are plenty of players who played and plenty who sat, and there might be a few who exited early. i'd just like to quantify it a bit. researching contemporary relative moral outrage would then be a fun follow-up.

SteveJRogers Sep 29 2011 08:11 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Pics I took of the aftermath of the hit 006 by sjrmets, on Flickr 012 by sjrmets, on Flickr

holychicken Sep 29 2011 08:56 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: holychicken wrote: Seriously, does a 75 win season or a 76 win season really make a difference? Is anyone (who didn't have money riding on it) really going to look back on this season and say "thank GOD we had 76 wins instead of 75!"? Has anybody made this argument? Not here, but I have read elsewhere and heard plenty of people who have said that taking himself out of a game that had yet to be decided was showing a lack of a desire to win. When, honestly, I think it shows the opposite. holychicken wrote: Jose Reyes played to win the only thing that had remotely any type of meaning for the Mets this season. He did what gave him the best shot of winning the battle title, giving Mets fans and the organization something they have never had before. I am glad he did the smart thing and put winning above some "honor" and a tradition that doesn't exist. I disagree with you on what has meaning. Could you list what meaningful things were left for the Mets to accomplish this year that Reyes could have realistically helped achieve at the time he was pulled? Of course, what does and does not have meaning is subjective. But I rarely hear anyone talk about a 75 or 76 win team, but I do hear people talk about batting titles. I have a hard time, using how people look back on the sport as what is "objective", that there was anything more meaningful than the batting title. I also disagree that putting winning a batting average title above honor is good. You put "honor" in quotes, so we apparently disagree on what is honorable. I'd be happy to discuss that as well. It's a game. As long as he is playing within the rules set forth by the league, the idea that it can be dishonorable to use those rules to your maximize your chances of winning befuddles me. You play to win. This article, while it does refer to video games, probably does a better job of explaining my position than I.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 09:04 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Could you list what meaningful things were left for the Mets to accomplish this year that Reyes could have realistically helped achieve at the time he was pulled? Playing something close to a full game for a group of 30,000 fans who showed up for a weekday game to delight in him, celebrate him, love him, photograph him, and express their appreciation for him one more time before he possibly disappears. It's a game. As long as he is playing within the rules set forth by the league, the idea that it can be dishonorable to use those rules to your maximize your chances of winning befuddles me. You play to win. First you say winning doesn't matter --- 76 versus 77 wins is irrelevant --- and then you say you play to win. If you don't see any higher code of honor you'd like the players on your team to display than staying within the baseball rulebook to serve their own wants, then I'm not going to try and evangelize you. I see it different.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 29 2011 09:20 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

attgig Sep 29 2011 09:22 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I hated him leaving. And while it shouldn't, i think what makes me hate it more than anything else is that it was a bunt single. I know it's a part of the game and a hit is a hit, but I think I would've been fine if he hit a home run and left, or even a solid single and left. But when it's a bunt single.... I don't know. just makes it feel worse. Kinda like breaking up a no hitter with a bunt... all psychological i guess.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 09:26 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I want to sleep with that card.

Centerfield Sep 29 2011 09:33 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

It was a shitty thing to do but not a big deal in my book. It should not overshadow the fact that he won.

Chad Ochoseis Sep 29 2011 09:36 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

It's a team game - individual records are interesting only when they're earned in the course of playing the game in a way that helps the team win. Reyes pulling out after the bunt single was cheap because there was no strategic reason to quit - if his hamstring was acting up, he could have sat out the game. Or he could have announced before the game started that he was going to come to bat once and call it a season, whether he got a hit or not. But it sure looks like Reyes' main goal was to inflate his average. Yeah, it's been done plenty of times before. And, sure, the Mets in general are easy targets and get far more abuse than they deserve, and way too much has been made out of this by the media. It still sucked.

metsmarathon Sep 29 2011 09:57 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

on the bright side, at least we know of one 2011 met who could lay down a fucking bunt. its all the more reason to bring him back next year. and if other teams are out there thinking that this knocks reyes down a peg, i'm cool with that too. i want him back. as much as any individual baseball related thing that can happen for the mets this offseason, i want jose reyes back.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 29 2011 09:57 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I want to sleep with that card. After he's done with it, I want to teach that card how to trust and love again.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 10:34 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

"I just want to say I'm humbled and honored to win the batting title," Reyes said in a statement. "It means so much to my family and my country, the Dominican Republic. I have been through a lot over the past few years so this really means a lot to me. It's also very special to be the first Mets player to win a batting title. There have been so many great players throughout our history. I want to thank Terry Collins, my coaches and all my teammates and of course all the Mets fans who have always supported me and been behind me 100 percent." "I said, 'If I go 1-for-1, take me out of the game,'" Reyes said. "And I did that. If I went 0-for-1, maybe I'm still in the game until I get a hit. ... I wanted to stay in the game, but (Mets fans) have to understand, too, what's going on. They have to feel happy about it if I win the batting title. I do that for the team, for the fans too, because they've been supporting me all the way through. I've (had) throughout my career a lot of ups and downs here with a lot of injuries. One thing I do all the time is give 100 percent on the field."

Vic Sage Sep 29 2011 11:16 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I disagree with you on what has meaning. I also disagree that putting winning a batting average title above honor is good. You put "honor" in quotes, so we apparently disagree on what is honorable. this. exactly this. I lose respect for guys who play for individual accomplishments and solely to pad their stats. and that's exactly what he did. He wasn't resting up for the playoffs, or ducking out early cuz he's hurt. he himself said he would have stayed in if he had not gotten a hit that first AB. so this was SOLELY about attaining a personal accomplishment that has nothing to do with the team or the franchise. The notion that this is somehow good for the mets, or for me as a fan, is laughable. I want a guy who wants to win every single day, regardless of standings, and wants a chance to hit every AB that he is able to do so. And if he wins a HR title, or batting title, or cy young, or whatever, as a consequence, then that's great. good for him, and good for the team, and good for me for rooting him on. But if he is actually strategizing about how NOT to play so he can meet some statistical goal, actually abstaining from the competition since he's ahead now, well then i'm not impressed, i'm not rooting for him, and i'm certainly not taking any pleasure from it as a fan of the franchise. have other guys done it too? yeah, of course. but not all of them. and i've never liked it no matter who did it. what kind of hypocrite would i be if i were to applaud it now? I wanted to stay in the game, well, then you SHOULD HAVE, since it was your decision to come out. I do that for the team, No, you did this for yourself, so you can go into free agency with a batting title. for the fans, too... really? you didn't do this for me, Jose. They have to feel happy about it if I win the batting title. not this way we don't. One thing I do all the time is give 100 percent on the field. yeah, except when you decide not to go out on the field. And to all of those who keep saying "chill out", not a big deal, everybody does it... those are standard rationalizations for inappropriate behavior. Why doesn't anything mean anything anymore? what the fuck? chill out? why don't you heat up? If you don't care, you don't care, but stop telling the rest of us "no big deal" simply cuz YOU don't care.

dgwphotography Sep 29 2011 11:42 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Vic Sage wrote: I disagree with you on what has meaning. I also disagree that putting winning a batting average title above honor is good. You put "honor" in quotes, so we apparently disagree on what is honorable. this. exactly this. I lose respect for guys who play for individual accomplishments and solely to pad their stats. and that's exactly what he did. He wasn't resting up for the playoffs, or ducking out early cuz he's hurt. he himself said he would have stayed in if he had not gotten a hit that first AB. so this was SOLELY about attaining a personal accomplishment that has nothing to do with the team or the franchise. The notion that this is somehow good for the mets, or for me as a fan, is laughable. I want a guy who wants to win every single day, regardless of standings, and wants a chance to hit every AB that he is able to do so. And if he wins a HR title, or batting title, or cy young, or whatever, as a consequence, then that's great. good for him, and good for the team, and good for me for rooting him on. But if he is actually strategizing about how NOT to play so he can meet some statistical goal, actually abstaining from the competition since he's ahead now, well then i'm not impressed, i'm not rooting for him, and i'm certainly not taking any pleasure from it as a fan of the franchise. have other guys done it too? yeah, of course. but not all of them. and i've never liked it no matter who did it. what kind of hypocrite would i be if i were to applaud it now? I wanted to stay in the game, well, then you SHOULD HAVE, since it was your decision to come out. I do that for the team, No, you did this for yourself, so you can go into free agency with a batting title. for the fans, too... really? you didn't do this for me, Jose. They have to feel happy about it if I win the batting title. not this way we don't. One thing I do all the time is give 100 percent on the field. yeah, except when you decide not to go out on the field. And to all of those who keep saying "chill out", not a big deal, everybody does it... those are standard rationalizations for inappropriate behavior. Why doesn't anything mean anything anymore? what the fuck? chill out? why don't you heat up? If you don't care, you don't care, but stop telling the rest of us "no big deal" simply cuz YOU don't care. Thank you.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 29 2011 11:50 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Vic Sage wrote: And to all of those who keep saying "chill out", not a big deal, everybody does it... those are standard rationalizations for inappropriate behavior. The reason I'm saying "chill out" is that, relatively, it's a minor transgression. The reason I'm saying "It's no big deal" is because it isn't, rising less to the level of "wrong" and more to the level of "I'd have done differently, probably." The reason I'm not yelling a lot about it isn't because nothing means anything... but because not everything is worth yelling, and writing, and haranguing others about. This isn't about morals... it's about taste. Why doesn't anything mean anything anymore? what the fuck? chill out? why don't you heat up? If you don't care, you don't care, but stop telling the rest of us "no big deal" simply cuz YOU don't care. And how is moralizing loudly and repeatedly when the people around you tell you that they don't care any less of a transgression of manners?

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 11:56 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Well, I'm not yelling. And I'm not haranguing. But I disagree with the notion that there's no moral dimension to this.

Willets Point Sep 29 2011 12:12 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

This is just ridiculous. We really don't need holier-than-thou types making moral issues out of a meaningless baseball game. Just take a moment to look at what you're saying and realize just how petty it is. I seriously have had enough of this forum.

Vic Sage Sep 29 2011 12:17 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Vic Sage wrote: And to all of those who keep saying "chill out", not a big deal, everybody does it... those are standard rationalizations for inappropriate behavior. The reason I'm saying "chill out" is that, relatively, it's a minor transgression. The reason I'm saying "It's no big deal" is because it isn't, rising less to the level of "wrong" and more to the level of "I'd have done differently, probably." The reason I'm not yelling a lot about it isn't because nothing means anything... but because not everything is worth yelling, and writing, and haranguing others about. This isn't about morals... it's about taste. Why doesn't anything mean anything anymore? what the fuck? chill out? why don't you heat up? If you don't care, you don't care, but stop telling the rest of us "no big deal" simply cuz YOU don't care. And how is moralizing loudly and repeatedly when the people around you tell you that they don't care any less of a transgression of manners? So, it's not a moral issue because it's not a moral issue... it's a minor transgression because it's a minor transgression... it's not a big deal because it isn't... The circularity of your logic is making me dizzy. And i didn't use CAPS, so don't accuse me of yelling. And yes, standing up on principle is often considered bad manners by those who are oblivous or insensitive to the principle being espoused. But i can live with that.

Vic Sage Sep 29 2011 12:19 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Willets Point wrote: This is just ridiculous. We really don't need holier-than-thou types making moral issues out of a meaningless baseball game. Just take a moment to look at what you're saying and realize just how petty it is. I seriously have had enough of this forum. then FUCK OFF ALREADY and stop making goodbye speeches. And don't let the cyber door hit you in your virtual ass on the way out.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 12:25 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Willets Point wrote: This is just ridiculous. We really don't need holier-than-thou types making moral issues out of a meaningless baseball game. Just take a moment to look at what you're saying and realize just how petty it is. I seriously have had enough of this forum. I asked you before. What have I said that offends you so? (Tryin' to have a conversation here.)

Vic Sage Sep 29 2011 12:47 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I asked you before. What have I said that offends you so? Willets isn't talking to you, Ed. He's talking to... i mean, about... me. He's had a stick up his ass about me for as long as we've both been on this forum. so don't take it personally.

holychicken Sep 29 2011 12:55 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Playing something close to a full game for a group of 30,000 fans who showed up for a weekday game to delight in him, celebrate him, love him, photograph him, and express their appreciation for him one more time before he possibly disappears. Other than the "one more time before he possibly disappears," you are talking about something he has done roughly 500 times vs something a Met has never done. Again, it is subjective opinion, so it is hard to debate. But to me you are putting something that has happened numerous times above something that a Met has never done. First you say winning doesn't matter --- 76 versus 77 wins is irrelevant --- and then you say you play to win. I never said winning doesn't matter. What I said is that one win is irrelevant. If he did something like this when they still had a shot at the post season, I would be bothered by it. But that batting title is more of a win, for both Reyes and the fans, than win #76. If you don't see any higher code of honor you'd like the players on your team to display than staying within the baseball rulebook to serve their own wants, then I'm not going to try and evangelize you. I see it different. I don't see it as solely a selfish move. It is something that the franchise and the fans will always have now. It's not just his. What I am saying is that what he did is not dishonorable, he played within the rules to win a title.

G-Fafif Sep 29 2011 01:02 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

77 wins, thank you very much. And there were nowhere close to 30,000 in the building. The paid attendance figures have as much to do with reality as Rob Parker.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 29 2011 01:07 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 29 2011 01:09 PM

Vic Sage wrote: So, it's not a moral issue because it's not a moral issue... it's a minor transgression because it's a minor transgression... it's not a big deal because it isn't... The circularity of your logic is making me dizzy. I was responding specifically to the charge that those of us who don't think this is all that big a deal are using the "everybody does it" defense. I wasn't building a case. But, sure, let's do that-- mine is brief. It's not a moral issue because playing for an individual goal in what, frankly, IS an individual sport (offensively, at least) where the guys all wear the same clothes isn't flatly immoral. This is an act that chafes against your very specific principles (shared by some loud, less couth others), not a transgression of an agreed-upon collective moral code. That's why it's a matter of taste. And yes, standing up on principle is often considered bad manners by those who are oblivous or insensitive to the principle being espoused. But i can live with that. So I gather. I'm pretty sure Reyes is okay with what he did, too. I'm not the biggest fan of it, but he hasn't made my personal blacklist.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 29 2011 01:08 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Is Big Brother citing 30,000 people as yesterday's attendance? Believe me, there weren't even 30,000 eyeballs or thumbs in attendance.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 01:10 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

holychicken wrote: Playing something close to a full game for a group of 30,000 fans who showed up for a weekday game to delight in him, celebrate him, love him, photograph him, and express their appreciation for him one more time before he possibly disappears. Other than the "one more time before he possibly disappears," you are talking about something he has done roughly 500 times vs something a Met has never done. Again, it is subjective opinion, so it is hard to debate. But to me you are putting something that has happened numerous times above something that a Met has never done. I think it's a highly significant "other than." It's why many of them showed up. It was how interest was generated for the game. It's how the announcers billed it. It's how my thread title billed it. holychicken wrote: First you say winning doesn't matter --- 76 versus 77 wins is irrelevant --- and then you say you play to win. I never said winning doesn't matter. What I said is that one win is irrelevant. If he did something like this when they still had a shot at the post season, I would be bothered by it. But that batting title is more of a win, for both Reyes and the fans, than win #76. I disagree. A lot of fans disagree. They came to see him with a predisposition to cheer him so profound that they dropped good money for the privilege. They got an ephemeral appearance and very many booed instead, and took little solace in a battle average title completed, in the end, the shade of the dugout. holychicken wrote: If you don't see any higher code of honor you'd like the players on your team to display than staying within the baseball rulebook to serve their own wants, then I'm not going to try and evangelize you. I see it different. I don't see it as solely a selfish move. It is something that the franchise and the fans will always have now. It's not just his. What I am saying is that what he did is not dishonorable, he played within the rules to win a title. Again with the rules. Nobody is claiming this is about the rules. I could cite for you dozens of behaviors far more troubling than this that weren't in contempt of the major league rule book. That's not what's at issue. And if what he did was for the fans, I'm not hearing an overwhelming joy among them. Do you really think that it arguably wasn't a "solely" selfish move speaks well of him? That his last act as a Met wasn't "solely" selfish? This was a dramatic stage which a conspiracy of fate and human will had set up for him to possibly cap his legacy. And he exited it near immediately in an act that you defend as not solely selfish? I think that's pretty disappointing.

TransMonk Sep 29 2011 01:12 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Braun takes high road on Reyes' decision (Quotes before last night's game) The Wisconsin State Journal wrote: "I don't think my opinion really matters about what the ethics of it are," Braun said. "I respect whatever decision he decided to make. Ultimately, he left the door open for me. It's not impossible. I've gotten three hits in a game plenty of times. It's still attainable. It's still a possibility. If he had stayed in the game and gotten multiple hits, it may not have been a possibility at all. I respect whatever decision he decided to make. I'm not really here to judge him." Reyes is being criticized for bunting his way on as well, but once again Braun chose to take the high road when asked about the relatively cheap hit. "That's a part of his game," Braun said. "I don't fault him for that. I can never fault him for trying to get a hit. That's what he does. He's fast, he's an exciting player and I bet you he's gotten plenty of bunt hits this year. I don't think it's anything that's out of the ordinary. I don't think there's anything wrong with that."

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 01:13 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I got no problem with the bunt. And I wouldn't expect Braun to play the victim. He's got to look ahead.

Centerfield Sep 29 2011 01:30 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I don't know if any of this is directed at me but since I'm one of the "not a big deal" guys, I feel compelled to chime in. I acknowledge that it's a shitty thing to do (said so in my first post). If I were Reyes, I would have played. And if my manager had taken me out after a hit or two, I'd put up an objection but I'd secretly be very glad he did so. After all, no matter what anyone says, every person on earth wants to win a batting title. I don't think it's a big deal, not because there's no honor component to it (there is) but because I just don't think the transgression is all that great. Ideally he should play the whole game, but there's a lot of things I'd like to see that just don't happen. I think teams that have clinched have an obligation when playing a contender to put their A team out there and not treat it as a spring training game. I think Rivera should have pitched the ninth yesterday (when is his next game? Saturday? I don't see it realistically affecting his post-season at all). I think sack dances in football are terrible, scripted touchdown celebrations even worse. But when I see these things, I don't get that bent out of shape. And when a player does something great like win a batting title, I don't think that skipping his last few at-bats outweighs the greater accomplishment. But that's my opinion. Others may feel otherwise.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 01:42 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Vic Sage wrote: I asked you before. What have I said that offends you so? Willets isn't talking to you, Ed. He's talking to... i mean, about... me. He's had a stick up his ass about me for as long as we've both been on this forum. so don't take it personally. Well, he's speaking pretty broadly, so I dunno. As fellow Angry Liberals with a Thing for Redheads, I see it as you two having more in common here than most. Maybe you two could meet at the next convention and, you know, square things.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 29 2011 01:43 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Vic Sage wrote: I asked you before. What have I said that offends you so? Willets isn't talking to you, Ed. He's talking to... i mean, about... me. He's had a stick up his ass about me for as long as we've both been on this forum. so don't take it personally. Well, he's speaking pretty broadly, so I dunno. As fellow Angry Liberals with a Thing for Redheads, I see it as you two having more in common here than most. Maybe you two could meet at the next convention and, you know, square things. FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

holychicken Sep 29 2011 02:03 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

G-Fafif wrote: 77 wins, thank you very much. And there we reveal how much I care about it. :)

holychicken Sep 29 2011 02:21 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: I think it's a highly significant "other than." It's why many of them showed up. It was how interest was generated for the game. It's how the announcers billed it. It's how my thread title billed it. Effectively, there is no difference between the last game I saw him in and his last game as a Met. It's something that exists solely in the heads of the (limited) number of fans there. I disagree. A lot of fans disagree. They came to see him with a predisposition to cheer him so profound that they dropped good money for the privilege. They got an ephemeral appearance and very many booed instead, and took little solace in a battle average title completed, in the end, the shade of the dugout. You all are free to feel that way. It would be far from the first time I disagree with other Mets fans. Again with the rules. Nobody is claiming this is about the rules. I could cite for you dozens of behaviors far more troubling than this that weren't in contempt of the major league rule book. That's not what's at issue. Yeah, it's about some, IMO, phony definition of honor that means putting yourself, and the fans, more at risk of losing something that they have never gotten. Do you really think that it arguably wasn't a "solely" selfish move speaks well of him? That his last act as a Met wasn't "solely" selfish? This was a dramatic stage which a conspiracy of fate and human will had set up for him to possibly cap his legacy. And he exited it near immediately in an act that you defend as not solely selfish? I think that's pretty disappointing. Playing baseball, in and of itself, is not even remotely a selfless act. Finishing the game because he wants to defend his "honor" would be a partially selfish act as well. Personally, I wish he had just stayed in the game just so there weren't all this handwringing over it. But, in my eyes, it shouldn't hurt his legacy. He gave us an entertaining offensive year and he did what was the right move to gain the batting title. . .I wouldn't have expected this much consternation because of it either. It's a shame that so many people are making such a big deal out of this. But, then again, people will make a big deal out of a manager making the correct (statistical) move and it going badly. So I guess I should expect it here as well.

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 02:31 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

holychicken wrote: Again with the rules. Nobody is claiming this is about the rules. I could cite for you dozens of behaviors far more troubling than this that weren't in contempt of the major league rule book. That's not what's at issue. Yeah, it's about some, IMO, phony definition of honor that means putting yourself, and the fans, more at risk of losing something that they have never gotten. There is nothing phony about it, and you clearly don't speak for all the fans. Do you really think that it arguably wasn't a "solely" selfish move speaks well of him? That his last act as a Met wasn't "solely" selfish? This was a dramatic stage which a conspiracy of fate and human will had set up for him to possibly cap his legacy. And he exited it near immediately in an act that you defend as not solely selfish? holychicken wrote: Playing baseball, in and of itself, is not even remotely a selfless act. Finishing the game because he wants to defend his "honor" would be a partially selfish act as well. I'd really like to hear about how. It's clear we have very different lexicons. I certainly don't get the continued setting of "honor" in quotation marks. It does have a meaning. It's a shame that so many people are making such a big deal out of this. I can only speak for myself. I'm not making such a big a deal out this.

Elster88 Sep 29 2011 02:40 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Joshua wrote: [Sometimes] the only winning move is not to play.

G-Fafif Sep 29 2011 03:04 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Benjamin Grimm wrote: This is indeed sweet. Do they still do leader cards? And have they been extended into advanced stats?

Edgy MD Sep 29 2011 04:57 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Willets has indeed closed his account. Not to talk about him behind his back, but I'm sorry to see him go. Try as I might, I can't see why this disagreement should be so much more distressing than any others. We're certainly not going to agree on everything. No need to make it or take it personal.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 29 2011 05:07 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

G-Fafif wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: This is indeed sweet. Do they still do leader cards? And have they been extended into advanced stats? Sometimes. Not that I know of.

Vic Sage Sep 29 2011 09:36 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I'm not the biggest fan of it, but he hasn't made my personal blacklist. I haven't damned him for all time. i'm just disappointed in him. i never got the impression that this was who he was. Nobody -- well, nobody HERE... maybe they are on FAN but i stopped listening to that crap ages ago -- is saying what he did is a hanging offense, or that it is somehow against the rules, or all that uncommon, or even that we shouldn't pursue him in free agency because it discloses something about his character (i think it does, but lets leave that aside). some here are simply saying it was a shitty thing for him to do and it taints the accomplishment to some degree. It was cunning instead of courageous; craven instead of competitive; small and selfish instead of big and selfless. But that's on him. What's on US is how we deal with that. And for me, a response of "aw, no big deal, we got a batting champ out of it; chill out, you're overreacting" is not our finest hour either. And if THAT position is all it took to drive Willets out of the pool, i should have tried it years ago. I could have saved myself from enumerable ad hominem attacks because he didn't like what i said about movie lists, or soccer rules, or whatever.

Vic Sage Sep 29 2011 10:11 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

holychicken wrote: 77 wins, thank you very much. And there we reveal how much I care about it. :) yeah, if it had been 76 wins, i would have won the pre-season predictions thread. So, if those freakin Mets had just abstained from taking the field at all that last game, or at least pulled a "JOSE" and left the game after 1 AB, i would've won! and youse guys would've been cool with that... cuz my glory is OUR glory!

metirish Sep 30 2011 05:44 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Willets has indeed closed his account. Not to talk about him behind his back, but I'm sorry to see him go. Try as I might, I can't see why this disagreement should be so much more distressing than any others. We're certainly not going to agree on everything. No need to make it or take it personal. I don't get that at all, did we all miss something?

Edgy MD Sep 30 2011 05:50 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I've been re-reading and wondering too. Before taking it on here, I think he was steamed on Facebook at me and others who didn't like the Reyes move. Certainly seemed so. Before Sage entered the frame, anyhow. I'm not sure if Baby Point #2 has arrived yet, but if not, it's the homestretch. Who wants to supervise collecting for a baby giftie?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 30 2011 06:40 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Let's put Vic in charge of that.

Vic Sage Sep 30 2011 02:54 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

heh heh heh.

Fman99 Sep 30 2011 05:14 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I could have dispelled all this bitterness and drama with a well timed cock joke.

Rockin' Doc Oct 01 2011 01:16 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I thank Jose Reyes for his time as a Met and sincerely hope that he returns to the Mets by signing a new deal this offseason. I congratulate him on a wonderful 2011 season and on winning the NL batting title. Personally, I would have preferred that he play the entire game, rather than getting a hit and removing himself from the game. I think to have played the entire game would have the more honorable thing to do, but it was his decision to make and he is apparently happy with the decision he made. My feeling regarding this are more in line with those of Edgy and Vic, but it isn't all that big deal in the end. It's just that if I were a similar situation (oh to dream) I believe I would have handled it differently by playing. To each his own, I guess.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 01 2011 05:03 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

There’s no honor in baseball. Baseball’s a win at all costs cutthroat competition. If there was any honor in baseball, the sport wouldn’t need any umpires. Because who in the world is in a better position to call balls and strikes than the catcher squatting behind home plate? Was J.C. Martin dishonorable when he declined to call himself out for running out of the baseline? Did anyone here expect Derek Jeter to void his own home run after Jeffrey Maier deflected the in-play ball over the outfield wall? Did anyone here, in their entire lifetime of watching major league baseball, ever see a middle infielder tell the second base umpire that he blew the stolen base call by mistakenly calling the runner out? Ryan Braun had no reasonable expectation that Jose Reyes would play the Mets’ entire last game. This is what happens when Braun fell that far behind an opponent whose team was already eliminated. If Braun, or anybody else has any gripes, they should be griping at Braun for not getting two or three more hits earlier in the season: because the hits in April count just as much as the hits in September.

Edgy MD Oct 01 2011 05:22 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

One level of honor we still have a right to expect, I think, it's that a man a manager puts in the lineup plays until his manager says otherwise, and that a man who is the announced attraction of the day plays some semblance of the game. Folks came to give him love, and like Jackson Browne in "Hold Out," he traded love for glory.

Edgy MD Oct 01 2011 08:17 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

"I would have played the whole game. I'm like, 'Hey, I fought this hard to be in this position and I'm going to see it through to the end.' My personality, I'm going to ride it out. I worked this hard to be this good and put up these numbers, I would like to see it all the way to the end." "I don't think it's lack of confidence with Jose Reyes, but that is the way he wanted to do it. For what reason, I don't know. It could have been outside influences. His agent may have told him, 'If you get up there, if you get a hit your first AB, you come out.' " "He did everything he needed to do, and when you see that coming from another player, you see them putting the team first. 'It's not about me. I've got to push the issue for the team. I put myself in position that puts us in position.' In previous years you just didn't get quite that feeling from [Reyes] being in the other dugout. This year you really did. It was like, 'This man is doing everything he can.' " "It (being a free agent the same offseason as Reyes) )makes for great comparisons. [Reyes] had a great year, but with free agency, you take a year and a career all into consideration. Then on top of that, you take the things you don't see on the field -- the intangibles in the clubhouse, leading the team. Is this guy a winning player? How does he impact the team by himself when he's in the lineup and out of the lineup? They are all great things to compare." "Baseball is not only about numbers. You get paid a lot with numbers, but you get people to fall in love with you and want you around and give you a little bit more money when you can do all the other things along with putting up good numbers." --- Jiminy Rollins Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/rol ... z1ZaQwE0vF

Valadius Oct 01 2011 08:45 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I mean, it would be one thing if there were any meaning to Game 162 this year. There wasn't. This sort of thing has happened with great regularity in baseball going back decades.

Edgy MD Oct 01 2011 09:15 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

There's no meaning in any baseball game except that which you invest in it.

smg58 Oct 02 2011 06:33 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ryan Braun had no reasonable expectation that Jose Reyes would play the Mets’ entire last game. I was under the impression that most people with a slight lead in the batting race going into the last day don't play at all if the game has no playoff implications.

Frayed Knot Oct 02 2011 07:03 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

It varies. There was one BA race years ago (although I've forgotten the specific participants by now) where the leader sat out his game only to see the guy in 2nd get a couple of quick hits in his and take over the lead. This prompted a rushed PH appearance by the by-now former leader but an out put him even further behind and he wound up losing the title. btw, I picked up this 'TransMonk' quote from the IGT of that game: "Francesa says he's now rooting for Braun" I wonder if Francesa was rooting for Mo Vaughn back in '98 when his beloved 'Bernie Baseball' left after 2 ABs and 2 hits in the final game of his season once his (one and only) BA title was in hand. Vaughn went 2-for-4 that day but lost by 2 points.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 03 2011 12:17 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Reyes Has No Reason to Apologize for Batting Title Rob Kirkpatrick I'm amazed by the flack New York Mets shortstop Jose Reyes is getting. I'm especially astounded by the comments from those who should know their baseball history better. Reyes went into game number 162 last Wednesday afternoon leading Ryan Braun of the Milwaukee Brewers in the National League batting race, .336 to .335. In his first at-bat, Reyes led off with a bunt single against the Cincinnati Reds' Edison Volquez to raise his average to .337. Mets manager Terry Collins promptly pulled Reyes for a pinch-runner, as he and his star player had agreed in the event Reyes got a hit in his first at-bat. Reyes hadn't exactly clinched the batting title with his single, but he'd taken a commanding lead: Braun would have to go 3 for 3 or 3 for 4 that night in Milwaukee's game with Pittsburgh, a possible-but-improbable occurrence, to overtake Reyes. Since the odds are statistically against a hitter getting a hit in any given at-bat -- Ty Cobb, owner of the highest career batting average, got a hit in less than 37% of his at-bats -- the chances were significantly greater Reyes would have lowered his average by stepping into the batter's box again than the chances Braun would go 3-4. In short, the shortstop was shrewdly playing the odds, something he put himself in the position to do by carrying the league's highest batting average into the final game. After Braun went 0 for 4 that night and saw his average drop to .332, Reyes claimed the NL batting crown. Yet as soon as he trotted off the field on Wednesday, criticism of the Mets shortstop shot across cyberspace. Comparisons were made to Ted Williams, who carried a .400 average into the final day of the 1941 season but played in both games of a season-closing doubleheader. (Technically, his average was .39955 but officially would have been rounded up.) The famously confident hitter, arguably the best ever, got six hits in eight at-bats in the twinbill to finish at .406; no Major Leaguer has broken the .400 mark for a full season since. Ironically, Williams often was criticized in his day for being overly concerned about his batting average. "Critics noted that if there were a man on second and a hit needed, the great Williams would rather take a walk than try for a hit on a pitch off the plate that would drive in a run," noted "Out of Left Field" columnist Stan Isaacs. "Joe DiMaggio, Stan Musial, Jackie Robinson, and the notoriously-bad-ball hitting Yogi Berra would be logical choices over Williams to hit in such a clutch situation." I've rooted for Reyes over the years but have also been critical of him at times. For such an outstanding player, he can make his share of mental mistakes, which (to be fair) often stem from the aggression that comes with playing the game at a higher speed than everyone else. Speaking of bunts, he seems to approach sacrifice situations as if he was bunting for a hit by dragging it down the line -- a lower-percentage play that can roll foul -- rather than simply squaring around and meeting the ball with his bat to put it in play. But in the case of Reyes's early exit on Wednesday, Williams himself would be the only person who would have the right to criticize Reyes. Everyone else is off base. First off, if Braun had gone for 3 for 4 to climb over Reyes in the batting race... are we really to believe Braun would have stayed in the game for a fifth at-bat to needlessly risk yielding the batting crown back to Reyes? (If you think so, you might want to file for tax-exempt status for your Church of Braun.) As anyone who knows baseball history could point out -- David Schoenfield, for one, pointed this out in a piece for ESPN.com -- there is a long-standing precedent of players sitting out at-bats or entire games to preserve batting titles, including Terry Pendleton in 1991, when he won the NL batting race, the NL MVP, and led the Atlanta Braves to the World Series. Still, that didn't stop plenty of people whose job is to know sports from spouting off on Reyes's character. ESPN's Steve Levy, for one, tweeted after an eventful evening that decided postseason berths: "On a night in which we saw everything that is right and great about baseball,we got the oppositte [sic] from jose reyes. Don't want him on my team." I supposed Levy also wouldn't have wanted a winner like Pendleton on his team. Or Bernie Williams, the former Yankees centerfielder who owns four World Series rings. Manager Joe Torre, who's lionized in New York, removed Williams from the final game of the 1998 season to preserve his lead over Boston Red Sox slugger Mo Vaughan. (While managing the Mets in 1977, Torre also substituted for a young Lee Mazzilli when the rookie led off the team's final game with a double, thus raising his average to .250 -- hardly a number to boldface on the back of a baseball card, but one that tells someone you at least had one hit every four at-bats.) Talk show host Jim Rome also ranted against Reyes in tweets that night: "Jose Reyes?! Are you kidding me? I hope Ryan Braun goes 4-4. And Matt Kemp [who was third in the race] goes 15-17. Laying down a bunt single and call it a day is weak"; and later: "I don't know anyone not pulling for Ryan Braun tonight. Too bad he's 0-3 and Jose Reyes is going to back into a batting title. Bush move." Reyes "backed into" the batting title? In his last four games, he struck six singles, a double, and two home runs in 15 at-bats -- for a .600 average and 1.667 OPS over that stretch. I'm guessing Rome also would say a division winner had backed into the playoffs if it had a ten-game winning streak snapped on the last day of the season. As part of the whole controversy, haters have focused also on how Reyes got his last hit in 2011. (Note Rome's calling out the "bunt single.") For Michael Moraitis's piece on Bleacher Report, a photo caption labels it a "cheap bunt single," as if taking a 90-mph pitch off a Major League pitcher and placing it perfectly between the pitcher, catcher, third baseman, and third-base foul line is an easy task -- as if a bunt single is somehow a lesser hit than, say, a ground ball that takes a bad hop or a seeing-eye single that barely trickles past the second baseman. One wonders why leadoff hitters ever swing away if bunting for a hit is so "cheap" and "easy." This sort of macho posturing from sports commentators is nothing new. It's both hollow and unsustainable. Following the same mindset, shall we criticize the manager who has his batter lay down a sacrifice bunt to move the potential winning run into scoring position rather than (in a more manly fashion) swing away for the fences? Is a pitcher "gutless" for wasting a 0-2 curveball in the dirt rather than (in a more manly fashion) throwing a fastball right down the middle and daring the batter to hit it? When a basketball coach has a late lead, is he "cheap" for having his team run out the shot clock rather than (in a more manly fashion) challenging the other team to a reckless exchange of fast breaks? When a football team is up by three points with thirty seconds left, is the coach taking the "easy" way out by having his quarterback take a knee rather than (in a more manly fashion) dropping back to throw a pass and daring the other team to pick it off? Nevertheless, many are calling Reyes gutless and his title tainted. And in the social architecture of today's media, once writers declare something tainted, it becomes a viral meme regardless of merit. But perhaps the most foolish criticism of Reyes came not from professional "experts" but from the segment of fans at CitiField who booed when he came off the field on Wednesday. Forget the fact Reyes had just all but locked up the franchise's first batting title in its 50-year history, that Reyes was the best player in the league until the All-Star break and battled through injuries in the second half, that (hello, Steve Levy) the Mets have had a far better record with Reyes in the lineup than without him. When the contract of your most crucial player has just run out, other teams are lining up to bid obscene amounts of money for his services, and you're hoping he will give your financially strapped organization a hometown discount, I'm not sure how smart it is to send him off the field with a chorus of boos. Fans pay a lot of money at Major League Baseball games, and they want to see their favorite stars play. But teams always play their subs and prospects at the end of the year, and if you buy a ticket to game 162, you don't expect to see the "A" team unless they're involved in a contest that decides postseason berths. The Mets starting lineup on Wednesday featured Willie Harris, Mike Baxter, Nick Evans, and Jason Pridie. Reyes's longtime teammate David Wright started the game and also was pulled for a pinch-runner after singling. Managers take players off the base paths, rather than in between innings, in such situations so fans have a chance to cheer for them one last time. Instead, Reyes heard boos. When asked about this later, he said, "It's kind of tough. I wanted to stay in the game. But [fans] have to understand, too, what's going on. They have to feel happy about it if I win the batting title. I do that for the team, and the fans, too." Fans usually don't like players telling them what they need to understand, but in this case Reyes is right. This wasn't just his batting title but the team's and the fans'. The Mets had their third losing season in a row and the team has never had a pitcher throw a no-hitter, but fans no longer have to hear a Met has never won a batting title. Unfortunately, there's a chance they also might no longer be able to cheer for Reyes in a Mets uniform. I hope the Mets front office finds a way to re-sign him. If not, he would leave a void that would take years to fill. But no matter whom he plays for the rest of his career, he earned the 2011 National League batting title, fair and square. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-kirkp ... 90677.html

Edgy MD Oct 03 2011 05:40 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

First off, if Braun had gone for 3 for 4 to climb over Reyes in the batting race... are we really to believe Braun would have stayed in the game for a fifth at-bat to needlessly risk yielding the batting crown back to Reyes? (If you think so, you might want to file for tax-exempt status for your Church of Braun.) Braun is neither here nor there, Snarky. I root for Reyes to meet the standard I and other Mets fans hold our team to. Braun, Jeter, or Bill Madlock are players for other teams and therefore highly suspicious to begin with. As anyone who knows baseball history could point out -- David Schoenfield, for one, pointed this out in a piece for ESPN.com -- there is a long-standing precedent of players sitting out at-bats or entire games to preserve batting titles, including Terry Pendleton in 1991, when he won the NL batting race, the NL MVP, and led the Atlanta Braves to the World Series. It's what I expect of Pendleton. It wasn't I look for from Reyes. Still, that didn't stop plenty of people whose job is to know sports from spouting off on Reyes's character. ESPN's Steve Levy, for one, tweeted after an eventful evening that decided postseason berths: "On a night in which we saw everything that is right and great about baseball,we got the oppositte [sic] from jose reyes. Don't want him on my team." Yeah, outside criticism was over the top. I think criticism from within Met fan circles is what matters. And most of it has been fair with a reasonable amount of perspective. I certainly don't want to be thrown in with Levy. Or Jim Rome. Reyes "backed into" the batting title? No, Rome is wrong. Reyes won the title on his ass. As part of the whole controversy, haters have focused also on how Reyes got his last hit in 2011. The bunt is a non-issue (I wish he'd bunt for hits more) and shouldn't be part of the story. But perhaps the most foolish criticism of Reyes came not from professional "experts" but from the segment of fans at CitiField who booed when he came off the field on Wednesday. Few are more anti-boo than me. But this isn't elevating a physical failure to a moral one as most home-player booing is. This was experessing disappointment for the star on the marquee exiting in the first inning of his last game when they came to cheer him on one last time. This was about a broken understanding. This was about disagreeing with a choice. And it was relatively modest. But teams always play their subs and prospects at the end of the year, and if you buy a ticket to game 162, you don't expect to see the "A" team unless they're involved in a contest that decides postseason berths. Yeah, it gets frequently argued that the last game is about looking at prospects. Look at the facts. He was pulled for Justin Turner --- ultimately one of the team's leaders in plate appearances --- not Reese Havens or Jordany Valdespin. Stop it. It was understood publicly that this was to be Reyes' last game. The manager publicly expressed disappointment that Reyes wanted to come out. So this isn't about his manager placing a higher priority on looking at fresh blood. Fans usually don't like players telling them what they need to understand, but in this case Reyes is right. This wasn't just his batting title but the team's and the fans'. The Mets had their third losing season in a row and the team has never had a pitcher throw a no-hitter, but fans no longer have to hear a Met has never won a batting title. No, they have to hear something else. The fans can set their own standards about what they want to hear. Unfortunately, there's a chance they also might no longer be able to cheer for Reyes in a Mets uniform. I hope the Mets front office finds a way to re-sign him. If not, he would leave a void that would take years to fill. And due to a deliberated choice, that void began about six innings before anybody was ready for it.

Vic Sage Oct 03 2011 12:47 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

regarding Edgy's comments above, ditto. Plus: This sort of macho posturing from sports commentators is nothing new. It's both hollow and unsustainable. Following the same mindset, shall we criticize the manager who has his batter lay down a sacrifice bunt to move the potential winning run into scoring position rather than (in a more manly fashion) swing away for the fences? Is a pitcher "gutless" for wasting a 0-2 curveball in the dirt rather than (in a more manly fashion) throwing a fastball right down the middle and daring the batter to hit it? When a basketball coach has a late lead, is he "cheap" for having his team run out the shot clock rather than (in a more manly fashion) challenging the other team to a reckless exchange of fast breaks? When a football team is up by three points with thirty seconds left, is the coach taking the "easy" way out by having his quarterback take a knee rather than (in a more manly fashion) dropping back to throw a pass and daring the other team to pick it off? Nevertheless, many are calling Reyes gutless and his title tainted. And in the social architecture of today's media, once writers declare something tainted, it becomes a viral meme regardless of merit. These are all examples of strategies to increase a team's chances of winning a game. But what Reyes did was to strategize to win a personal accolade. the author conflates the 2 distinct ideas again here: Fans usually don't like players telling them what they need to understand, but in this case Reyes is right. This wasn't just his batting title but the team's and the fans'. The Mets had their third losing season in a row and the team has never had a pitcher throw a no-hitter, but fans no longer have to hear a Met has never won a batting title. I'm a life-long Mets fan, over 50 years of age, and i've got to tell you i was unaware that a Met had never won a batting title. I'm aware we've never pitched a no-hitter, but the batting title thing? nope. Because its an INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISHMENT that may or may not have helped the team win (in this case, NOT so much of that either). But a No-Hitter is invariably a win, and so its a confluence of individual achievement with team success. and when it happens in a playoff race, or post-season game, it takes on mythic proportions. While a batting title, or HR title, or rbi title or ERA title, etc, are all very well, and i'm happy when a Met accomplishes it, they are outcomes that should be applauded retroactively, not goals to be schemed for prospectively. When a player does that, it indicates to me a guy with his priorities askew. The fact that it's often done (reiterated in this article like its a mantra from holy scripture) doesn't mean shit to me. Alot of crappy things are often done. they don't deserve applause for being common. I agree that the bunt should not be controversial, because its a perfectly appropriate form of hit (and frankly should be used more by Reyes, not less), and that the whole affair has been overinflated by outsiders with an anti-met agenda. But just think for a moment how proud you would have been, even if Reyes lost the title, if he had said afterwards, "I'm paid to play baseball. Fans came to see me play baseball. I already missed a quarter of the season this year, and i don't yet know if i'll be back next year, or ever. So I owed it to the fans, to my teammates, to the organization and to myself to go out and play every game, every AB, like its my last, and to come back with my shield or on it. If i win a batting title that way, great. If not, not. I don't play for awards." If he had said and done that, i would have started up a collection for the Wilpons to resign him at any price. If you feel similarly, measure his actual accomplishment against that theoretical position and see how far short it falls. Now, that he failed to be heroic doesn't mark him as a villain, nor deserve branding with the mark of Cain. But it was a missed opportunity and made me sad when i should have been proud.

dgwphotography Oct 03 2011 02:28 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I say this a lot, and I'll say this again: What Vic said.

Rockin' Doc Oct 06 2011 10:09 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

To Edgy and Vic....Yup© A batting title is a nice individual achievement for Reyes. It apparently means a great deal to him, particularly going into free agency, but it means little to me as a fan. I truthfully would have preferred Reyes hit .250 for the year and the Mets have made the post-season, than for him to win a batting title while the Mets finish sub-500 and in 4th place behind the Washington Nationals.

G-Fafif Oct 06 2011 11:02 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

May that awful rat bastard who hit .337 for the Mets before taking off two at-bats atone for his sins this Yom Kippur.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 07 2011 04:45 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I didn't know Jose Reyes was Jewish!

themetfairy Oct 07 2011 05:21 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

He would have to have had the best Bar Mitzvah reception ever....

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 09:04 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Mayor of Bridgeton expands on this thoughts.

metirish Oct 24 2011 09:08 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Mayor of Bridgeton expands on this thoughts. Oh, it's the bullshit generational/Ted Williams thing again.....yawn I suppose my point is this, people don’t finish well today and they rarely finish with honor. Assuming a certain age, our parents or grandparents knew how to finish. They finished careers, raising children, fighting a war, and everything in between. Today, we don’t finish school, careers, marriages, projects or much of anything else. And when we do, many times we don’t do it with honor. please

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 09:17 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

sure, back in the revolutionary war soldiers used to fight with real honor and just stand there on the line waiting to take a bullet. None of these pansy hiding and strategery stuff of the later generations.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 09:20 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Oh, I think he's on to to something. He gets some credit for not counting himself as superior, and some discredit for being overbroad. But I like when folks use a baseball situation to look at how it speaks to bigger issues, without resorting to "Jose Reyes is exactly what's wrong with America today --- with the braids and tattoos and whatnot." He does touch in that direction, certainly.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 09:30 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Oh, I think he's on to to something. He gets some credit for not counting himself as superior, and some discredit for being overbroad. But I like when folks use a baseball situation to look at how it speaks to bigger issues, without resorting to "Jose Reyes is exactly what's wrong with America today --- with the braids and tattoos and whatnot." He does touch in that direction, certainly. I disagree. I don't think he's on to anything but complaining about how much better things were when he was young. He even starts it with "I don't understand their music and movies either" Throws in a bible reference (at least, I assume that's what he meant by Paul?) implies that he doesn't even have email, which is a big red flag of "I'm not really with it", especially as a public figure. And how doesn't he come off as superior? He basically cites no examples of this 'not finishing' thing, besides Reyes. or what constitutes 'honor' as if we should all know exactly what the definition of that is.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 09:38 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

None of those things diminish the point. Ceetar wrote: I disagree. I don't think he's on to anything but complaining about how much better things were when he was young. He even starts it with "I don't understand their music and movies either" Some things are better. Some things aren't. He clearly --- clearly --- frames this as something more. Ceetar wrote: Throws in a bible reference (at least, I assume that's what he meant by Paul?) And that's definitively bad why? implies that he doesn't even have email, which is a big red flag of "I'm not really with it", especially as a public figure. These statements come with a confessional tone. Ceetar wrote: TAnd how doesn't he come off as superior? He basically cites no examples of this 'not finishing' thing, besides Reyes. or what constitutes 'honor' as if we should all know exactly what the definition of that is. Sure he does. ...careers, raising children, fighting a war, and everything in between. Today, we don’t finish school, careers, marriages, projects or much of anything else. And when we do, many times we don’t do it with honor. I don't know why there's should be any controversy about what "honor" means.

metirish Oct 24 2011 09:40 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I think we need Tom Brokaw to tell us how it is.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 09:56 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: TAnd how doesn't he come off as superior? He basically cites no examples of this 'not finishing' thing, besides Reyes. or what constitutes 'honor' as if we should all know exactly what the definition of that is. ...careers, raising children, fighting a war, and everything in between. Today, we don’t finish school, careers, marriages, projects or much of anything else. And when we do, many times we don’t do it with honor. I don't know why there's should be any controversy about what "honor" means. I'm pretty sure people differ on what they think is honorable. And it's heavily rooted in personal belief. he throws out topics that he thinks people don't finish, but not examples. And he's probably wrong. I think we finished this Iraq war better than say Vietnam. Aren't mroe people finishing school and getting degrees, particularly college degrees, than say 30 years ago? I'm not sure what careers or projects he's talking about. Sure, the divorce rate is probably worse, but i doubt the "happily married" rate is better. He'd probably argue that committing to your unhappy marriage and your vows is honorable.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 24 2011 10:00 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

If Ryan Braun had any honor, he woulda went six for six on the last day of the season. Jose Reyes may not be Ted Williams, but Ryan Braun definitely ain't.* *Neither is anybody else, as if it's all of a sudden some big shame not to be Ted Williams.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 10:01 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I guess it makes me a conservative old fuddy duddy, but honor is a really simple concept. It means fulfilling your explicit obligations --- legal, professional, contractual, moral --- even when it grows burdensome.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 10:04 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Ceetar wrote: he throws out topics that he thinks people don't finish, but not examples. And he's probably wrong. I think we finished this Iraq war better than say Vietnam. i think that's yet to be seen. But I don't think he'd cite Vietnam as being within the scope of his definition of an honrable finish.. Ceetar wrote: Aren't mroe people finishing school and getting degrees, particularly college degrees, than say 30 years ago? Maybe females are. Ceetar wrote: I'm not sure what careers or projects he's talking about. Certainly not mine.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 10:07 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: he throws out topics that he thinks people don't finish, but not examples. And he's probably wrong. I think we finished this Iraq war better than say Vietnam. i think that's yet to be seen. But I don't think he'd cite Vietnam as being within the scope of his definition of an honrable finish.. Well, it's over no? But Vietnam would be my counter example of why maybe things aren't quite so different now. Ceetar wrote: Aren't mroe people finishing school and getting degrees, particularly college degrees, than say 30 years ago? Maybe females are. I don't know the stats on this (and maybe if he really wanted to make a point, he should'vel ooked them up) but I think the definition of 'finished' in terms of schooling has changed. And I guess it depends how far back you're going. Ceetar wrote: I'm not sure what careers or projects he's talking about. Certainly not mine. Perhaps mine, as I'm with my fourth company and don't expect to be here until I'm 65 or so. I'm not quite sure what's dishonorable about that though.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 10:09 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Not necessarily anything. And by "certainly not mine," I mean, I have no stability either. Well, it's over no? I don't know what this means. It guess maybe it's kind of over, but not quite. That doesn't mean it was well finished.

Vic Sage Oct 24 2011 11:49 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Maybe I’m just getting old, but I would have held Jose Reyes in much higher esteem if he had played the full nine on the last day of the season, left it all out on the field, taking the risk and regardless of the outcome, walked away as a finisher, with honor and dignity. i said the exact same thing, except without the "maybe i'm just getting old" part, and i didn't have to get into a discussion of "finishing". And I think honor and dignity are concepts that speak quite eloquently for themselves, and those who try to muddy those waters are just rationalizing some less-than-honorable or otherwise less dignified behavior.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 11:57 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Vic Sage wrote: Maybe I’m just getting old, but I would have held Jose Reyes in much higher esteem if he had played the full nine on the last day of the season, left it all out on the field, taking the risk and regardless of the outcome, walked away as a finisher, with honor and dignity. i said the exact same thing, except without the "maybe i'm just getting old" part, and i didn't have to get into a discussion of "finishing". And I think honor and dignity are concepts that speak quite eloquently for themselves, and those who try to muddy those waters are just rationalizing some less-than-honorable or otherwise less dignified behavior. honor is often "my way is the way to do things because It's the way it's always been done and I don't care if the way you've decided to do it works for everyone and harms no one." And there is a difference between you/him thinking Reyes is less honorable, and him actually being less honorable.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 12:01 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I don't know who you're quoting there. But that's nothing to do what I or he or Vic or anybody means. It's really simple. And if I'm a conservative fuddy-duddy, Vic certainly isn't.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 12:21 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: I don't know who you're quoting there. But that's nothing to do what I or he or Vic or anybody means. It's really simple. And if I'm a conservative fuddy-duddy, Vic certainly isn't. people. I dunno. honor is not a black and white thing. Especially when you're talking morality like marrying a woman you knock up or something like that. A simple example that I seem to see a lot. A man may think it's honorable to hold the door open for a woman, and that same woman may see it as misogynistic.

G-Fafif Oct 24 2011 12:29 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

metirish wrote: I think we need Tom Brokaw to tell us how it is. There is honor in this observation.

Vic Sage Oct 24 2011 12:31 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Oct 24 2011 12:41 PM

well, i'm a little on the fuddy side, but i hope not so duddy. Conservative? Nope, never been accused of that. as someone who is an atheist with more than a dash of existentialism in my personal cosmology, and who often sees morality as contextual, a moveable feast if you will, and not about a priori absolutism, i realize i seem to be on the other side of this issue, but i don't think i am. because words have meanings, even if they're just contextual ones. honor is a concept that has a meaning in the martial context that sports emulate, to the extent sports are about a contest of both physical and mental abilities, about helping your team/country/tribe win, and individual sacrifice to achieve that goal. Ask a marine about honor... but beware that if you put "quotes" around the word, he'll knock your fucking teeth out. Now sports are not life and death, and baseball is probably less explicitly military than other sports, especially football (thank you, George Carlin), but the sports culture, from the original Olympiads to the World Cup, to any other event you care to mention, has always raised its athletes in the "no I in team" / combat + self-sacrifice" ethos. And in that context, honor has a meaning. it's not just "honor". And as i said before, if you simply compare Reyes' behavior to what you might idealize the behavior would be in that situation "I'm paid to play baseball. Fans came to see me play baseball. I already missed a quarter of the season this year, and i don't yet know if i'll be back next year, or ever. So I owed it to the fans, to my teammates, to the organization and to myself to go out and play every game, every AB, like its my last, and to come back with my shield or on it. If i win a batting title that way, great. If not, not. I don't play for awards." ... then the shortfall = degree of disappointment. i don't want to continue litigating the issue, but words have meanings, actions have consequences, and things matter.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 12:35 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

As I wrote up there, it means fulfilling your explicit obligations --- legal, professional, contractual, moral --- even when it grows burdensome. Expectations you knew about going in as part of your deal. You want to know what makes it black and white? It's when somebody clearly felt obliged to do it, and would've, except it became too burdensome. It's really of little consequence what Reyes did. But I think it's of bigger consequence that so many would call it justfied when it's not. I don't want to continue litigating it either. But there's little else to talk about. Am I'm really trying hard to dishonorably avoid work.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 12:48 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

well the mayor was taking it well beyond sports and seemingly attacking 'my' generation and using Reyes' last game as the focus for basically calling us unfocused quitters. I don't think there was anything dishonorable it from a batting title thing, given how much he'd hit over the last week or so. I would've liked to see him finish from a Mets fan/last game point of view, but I'm not thinking less of him for it. He's had a long Mets career for me to watch him, and I believe he'll be back. Edgy DC wrote: I don't want to continue litigating it either. But there's little else to talk about. Am I'm really trying hard to dishonorably avoid work. That's pretty much where I'm at. I thought there was something interesting/provoking in that article. I'd been thinking to myself recently about how older people glorify the 'good old days' and seemingly mock kids these days and call teenagers know-it-alls so it struck a chord. I get that there is a black and white definition. But not adapting to changing expectations is not honorable either. Gil Meche might be an example of this. They made an obligation to pay him, he made an obligation to pitch, but it came to a point where that wasn't what best. "Honor" might've been to serve out the year he'd signed to, go through the motions, show up for camp, etc, but instead he walked away.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 24 2011 12:52 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

You know what? I'm convinced. About the Reyes thing, I mean. I kinda think the Bridgeton guy's more than a little full of old-guy shit, but Vic's swung me over.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 12:59 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I'm certainly not saying the guy is Shakespeare, but he was speaking of trends in society at large, and not claiming your generation, whatever that is, started something that undercut his own. Ceetar wrote: I get that there is a black and white definition. But not adapting to changing expectations is not honorable either. I'm kinda lost again. OE: Ah, fuggedit.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 01:07 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: I'm certainly not saying the guy is Shakespeare, but he was speaking of trends in society at large, and not claiming your generation, whatever that is, started something that undercut his own. Ceetar wrote: I get that there is a black and white definition. But not adapting to changing expectations is not honorable either. I'm kinda lost again. I guess it was 'maybe because I'm old' that made me assume he was talking about Kids these days or younger people or something. There is honor in sticking to your commitments, but there is sometimes honor in breaking them. an unhappy marriage, a war that's original goal is incomplete, etc.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 01:30 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I just... you're putting a lot of things on that stupid essay that aren't there.

Ceetar Oct 24 2011 01:40 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: I just... you're putting a lot of things on that stupid essay that aren't there. I'm extrapolating to discuss a topic. I'm not necessarily trying to debunk an argument.

metsmarathon Oct 24 2011 09:05 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Ceetar wrote: A simple example that I seem to see a lot. A man may think it's honorable to hold the door open for a woman, and that same woman may see it as misogynistic. a man may think it's honorable to hold the door open for the next person to walk through. the same woman may be a bitch.

Edgy MD Oct 24 2011 09:36 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Confusing old-fashioned polite gentlemanly chivalry with basic honor is deliberately muddying a very simple and clear thing. But if you want to have a conversation about door-holding....

Ceetar Oct 25 2011 08:31 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Confusing old-fashioned polite gentlemanly chivalry with basic honor is deliberately muddying a very simple and clear thing. But if you want to have a conversation about door-holding.... work has been crazy for the first two hours. I'll havea conversation about door knobs if you like.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 25 2011 12:53 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

We don't pay nearly as much attention to Honor(e) as we used to, and I think that's a damn dirty, sand-smeared shame.

Centerfield Oct 26 2011 10:22 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

This article is crap. It's nothing more than another "things were better in the old days" throw-away piece meant to pander to old people. You could write that article a hundred times and insert any number of different adjectives. This generation has no honor. It doesn't have any pride in finishing. It also lacks tenacity, gumption, character, attention to detail. They lack values, no sense of family, home, respect for elders. These young kids don't know the value of a hard day's work. Spare me. I can almost hear "My Way" in the background. As best I can tell, this seems to be his main point: "It was about finishing and it was about honor. If there is one fundamental difference between the generations, it’s that the last couple of generations don’t really finish well." Ok. We get it. In the old days, things were great. Young kids suck. Got any backup? "If you doubt that, think about Ted Williams of the Boston Red Sox. Heading into the last day of the 1941 season he was batting .400. He could have chosen not to play, risked nothing, and ensured that he ended the season with a .400 average. Instead, he played both ends of a double header, went 6 for 8 and ended the season batting .406. In that instant, a legend was born and no one has gotten to the .400 mark since." Ok, you've got Reyes versus Williams. I'm with you that Williams was honorable and Jose took the easy way out. What else? "I suppose my point is this, people don’t finish well today and they rarely finish with honor. Assuming a certain age, our parents or grandparents knew how to finish. They finished careers, raising children, fighting a war, and everything in between. Today, we don’t finish school, careers, marriages, projects or much of anything else. And when we do, many times we don’t do it with honor." Any numbers? Any stats? Any specifics? Nothing? Because, see, I think the fundamental difference between last generation and this generation was that people of a certain age were purple. They had purple hands, purple arms, purple ears, purple feet and everything in between. Today, we have no purple. No purple clothes, no purple hair or much of anything else. Without backup, articles like this are just filler. Ideas like this are meant to be grumbled to a bartender. When things are intended for publication I like to see substance behind it. For the record, Reyes couldn't have played both ends of a doubleheader in 1941 because he wouldn't have been allowed in the league. He couldn't even ride in the front of the bus. There were no regulations against drunk driving, sexual harrassment, no such thing as a hate crime. Women used to smoke and drink throughout their pregnancies. So forgive me if I don't buy into the Mayor's argument with blind faith. And finally, on the Reyes front, I get Vic's point. And I agree with a lot of it. I would have preferred Reyes to leave it all on the field. To me I would have been more proud of that than I am of his batting title. But I'm still proud of his batting title. I don't get why he gets so much more grief about it than Wade Boggs, or Bernie Williams or anyone else who has done this in the past. I certainly don't think his transgression defines a generation. It is arbitrary and unfair to single out an individual player for doing something that has been common practice. In fact, had Williams or Boggs been called out in the past, I doubt Reyes would have played it the way he did (at least Collins would have covered for him). But now that he's been the whipping boy, I'm sure everyone else will play out their last game.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2011 10:40 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I understand the weaknesses of the article. The list of American mayors who were fine writers is short. But you're putting a lot on him that isn't there. We keep saying it's directed at "kids these days" and it's not. He cites "the last couple of generations" and doesn't exempt himself or his peers. To me, that's going back a ways. And you don't need to tell a black mayor about discrimination, but that's not what he's talking about. He certainly doesn't say all things were better, so we shouldn't be throwing that at him either. The issue to me isn't so much that Reyes walked out. It's that so many folks think that's OK. I'm sure Boggs and Williams got their share of grief. I just don't care, because they weren't representing me.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2011 10:44 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Shame on Boggs.

Ceetar Oct 26 2011 10:51 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

part of it is that people still think batting average means a whole heck of a lot. if Boggs had played and went 2/18 in those last four games, or if Reyes had made two more outs and Braun had actually gone 3/4, it means absolutely nothing in terms of who is 'better'. Reyes got ahead enough that it was possible. Doesn't it speak to his talent that he was able to do so? If you don't like that he sat out, maybe Braun should've had a few more hits going in. Same argument if you don't like a batter styling after a HR. Don't throw him a bad pitch.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2011 11:14 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Do you just not read what I actually write or what?

Ceetar Oct 26 2011 11:29 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Edgy DC wrote: Do you just not read what I actually write or what? maybe I'm not just responding to you. maybe I'm just writing. I don't have a problem with what Reyes did and take offense to the idea that you think there's something wrong with that. He's won the title because he got more H/AB than Braun did, and picking and choosing 2-3 (or even 20) AB to make a case that he somehow doesn't deserve it (as the writer in your link says of Boggs) is just silly. Why not put an asterisk after it because Braun played in 25 or so more games?

Frayed Knot Oct 26 2011 11:44 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I haven't gotten around to reading that linked article yet ... but shenanigans involving batting races and the like have been going on for at least a century now. Nap Lajoie was virtually handed a title over Cobb when an opposing 3rd baseman played back so as to allow Lajoie like 5 bunt hits on the final day in order to overtake Cobb (all because no one liked Cobb). Oh yeah, there was also a free car involved so it wasn't just outsized pride but greed as well. There are other stories as well. Similar arguments were made back when Ripken was approaching Gehrig's record with a combination of old-timers and MFY fans (mostly the latter probably) claiming that Ripken was somehow undeserving of the record on account of sitting out partial games that Gehrig would never do* before going into the usual stuff about DH's, train travel, having to personally mow the grass and drag the field (uphill ... both ways) before the game could be started, and all that other nonsense. I'm with most of the rest of you about not liking the way he/they handled that final day, but these 'charges' against Reyes are neither new nor unique. * Gehrig absolutely did play partial games, sometimes for the usual reasons but also occasionally for the sole purpose of keeping the streak alive - once even being listed a the starting SS during a road game so he could get his AB then be "replaced" by the real SS never having taken the field. Ripken not only had something like a six year-long innings played streak that comprised the first half of his run but played some 98% of the innings it was possible to have played during the 14+ season-long record, a pct higher than that of Gehrig.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2011 11:45 AM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Ceetar wrote: maybe I'm not just responding to you. maybe I'm just writing. No, I actually think you're responding to me. You address me directly sometimes, and chime in with phrases that suggests you're retorting. Ceetar wrote: I don't have a problem with what Reyes did and take offense to the idea that you think there's something wrong with that. So, you're addressing me now? How on earth is my position offensive to you? I read what you write. I honor you with thoughtful responses. Ceetar wrote: He's won the title because he got more H/AB than Braun did, and picking and choosing 2-3 (or even 20) AB to make a case that he somehow doesn't deserve it (as the writer in your link says of Boggs) is just silly. I didn't say he didn't deserve it. Nobody did. Or are you not addressing me here? Frayed Knot wrote: I'm with most of the rest of you about not liking the way he/they handled that final day, but these 'charges' against Reyes are neither new nor unique. You're offending Ceetar.

Ceetar Oct 26 2011 12:45 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

specifically addressing Edgy: You did indeed take offense to my opinion. The issue to me isn't so much that Reyes walked out. It's that so many folks think that's OK aside: I wish he had played the whole game, because of his contract status. I don't care about the batting title thing. That's okay to me. It's a long season. back to addressing Edgy: I'm not saying you said he didn't deserve it. In the article you linked (that I clicked on and read) the author says Boggs title was undeserved. That's what I was referencing. Especially when it's only assumed (at least as of the writing of that article) that he sat out to protect his title, and not the injury that he claimed.

Fman99 Oct 26 2011 12:47 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Isn't this particular napkin full of self induced semen yet?

Ceetar Oct 26 2011 01:03 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Fman99 wrote: Isn't this particular napkin full of self induced semen yet? it was, but then we injected it into Bartolo Colon's shoulder.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2011 01:27 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

Oh, blah.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2011 08:38 PM Re: Reyes vs. Braun & Other Average Troublemakers

I pulled out of this thread because I was so tiresome I was looking at my watch trying to come up with a way to excuse myself from myself. I told this to my wife, and she said that I'm over 40, so I'm allowed to be tiresome. Thanks, Honey, I think.