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Closer - 2006

Centerfield Nov 10 2005 12:19 PM

I didn’t see a Closer thread so I figured I’d start one up. (I know there's a Wagner thread, but I wanted to discuss Hoffman too) This article suggests that lowball offers to Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman could open the door to one of them ending up at Shea. And of course, it may just be a way of driving up interest, but both seem open to coming here. One thing that pissed me off in the article: (listed as “con” for Hoffman) He is 38 and has shown symptoms of Benitezitis - great in regular season, not great in the big spot. In his one trip to the World Series, he gave up a huge home run to Scott Brosius. This is absolute garbage. First of all, it’s not as if Wagner has been lights-out in the post-season, (0-4, 7.71 ERA, 1 blown save in his only save opportunity). So to say this about Hoffman while staying silent on Wagner is simply idiotic. In fact, I remember people making that same "big spot" criticism about Wagner when he struggled a bit last September. And for real, how many closers does this label have to be applied to before the NY media starts realizing blowing saves in big games is something that comes with the territory of being a closer and not some malady exclusive to one guy.

smg58 Nov 10 2005 12:33 PM

I agree about blown saves being part of the territory. I don't think Hoffmann did nearly well enough in an extreme pitcher's park to make me think that he's even equal with other older options like Wickman, Jones, or Gordon who would come much more cheaply. But that has nothing to do with how he pitched in one game in 1998.

Edgy DC Nov 10 2005 12:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 10 2005 02:28 PM

It particularly comes with the territory in the post-season, when, instead of your typical opponent having a winning percentage of .500, they'll likely have a figure more like .610.

MFS62 Nov 10 2005 12:54 PM

He may be more of a LOOGY, but the Mets signed Matt Pershio. ] Former Marlin Matt Perisho agreed to terms with the New York Mets on a split minor league, major-league contract that includes an invitation to big-league spring training in February. The left-hander went 2-0 with a 2.57 ERA in 25 games with Florida and the Boston Red Sox last season. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5820

Nymr83 Nov 10 2005 02:27 PM

even if you wanted to believe that some guys were simply "choke-artists" a single appearence shouldn't be allowed to prove that point. Hoffman doesn't have enough postseason to make a statement one way or the other.

TheOldMole Nov 11 2005 10:31 AM

The thing about the postseason is, you're pitching to hitters who have proven themself -- by being there -- to be the best around, and are incredibly motivated. Saves are not automatic. That's one of the things that makes postseason baseball so great.

abogdan Nov 13 2005 01:14 PM

What's wrong with just sticking with what the Mets have? Will Wagner be that much better than Heilman next year that he's worth adding $11 million or so for the next three years to the team's payroll? Heilman was lights out as a reliever last year, striking out nearly three times as many batters as he walked, with a 2.18 ERA. He's only 27 (happy birthday!), and isn't even arbitration eligble yet. I say give him a shot, and bring in a couple of guys like 'Berto as backup just in case Heilman can't get the job done.

abogdan Nov 17 2005 07:41 AM

[url=http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/57626.htm]Mets meet with Ryan[/url]: ]The Mets had another player meeting last night, this time with B.J. Ryan, a source told The Post. Ryan, one of the best free-agent closers on the market, met with front-office people from the Mets, according to the source. The group went to dinner in New York. Ryan is the fourth known major free agent the Mets have met face-to-face and the first to do it in New York. The Mets have visited closer Billy Wagner in VirginiaVirginia and catchers Bengie Molina in Arizona and Ramon Hernandez in California.

Elster88 Nov 17 2005 08:52 AM

="abogdan"]What's wrong with just sticking with what the Mets have? Will Wagner be that much better than Heilman next year that he's worth adding $11 million or so for the next three years to the team's payroll? Heilman was lights out as a reliever last year, striking out nearly three times as many batters as he walked, with a 2.18 ERA. He's only 27 (happy birthday!), and isn't even arbitration eligble yet. I say give him a shot, and bring in a couple of guys like 'Berto as backup just in case Heilman can't get the job done. I'd rather let Heilman compete for a starting slot and pick up a Ryan. I'm curious what people think, is Ryan > Wagner or the other way around?

abogdan Nov 17 2005 09:08 AM

Ryan > Wagner. Ryan's 4 years younger, will probably cost less, and give you the same or better production.

Elster88 Nov 17 2005 09:10 AM

Me too.

Rotblatt Nov 17 2005 10:33 AM

Yup. I think Ryan's better over the long haul, although Wagner might be better in 2006.

smg58 Nov 17 2005 11:19 AM

If the contract guarantees two years, I'd go with Wagner. If it takes at least three years to get either of them, I'd take Ryan (assuming he'd be a bit cheaper). If the price goes above $30M for Wagner or $25M for Ryan, I'd look at one of the older guys (Gordon, Wickman, Jones) for a short, relatively cheap contract (say two years at $10M or less) while grooming Heilman. I'd also look into Scott Eyre as a lefty setup guy, although a report today said we're not on his short list.

Frayed Knot Nov 17 2005 01:35 PM

To be fair about this folks, Ryan has been a closer for all of one year now and has had a above-league-avg ERA for all of 3, while Wagner has been at or near the top for nearly a decade. So while age, price - or at least perceived price - etc, may make Ryan a better risk in some opinions, let's not go overboard and declare these two to already be equals.

sharpie Nov 17 2005 01:39 PM

Wickman has said that he wants to stay in the midwest and will retire rather than play in another part of the country.

Valadius Nov 17 2005 03:13 PM

BJ Ryan is a strikeout MACHINE.

seawolf17 Nov 17 2005 06:29 PM

Valadius' dad knows B.J. Ryan.

Valadius Nov 17 2005 06:53 PM

No, but he does know Aaron Heilman. We got to chat with him for like 20 minutes before a game once. I got an autographed ball, but GODDAMMIT, he didn't sign on the sweet spot!!!

Elster88 Nov 18 2005 01:36 PM

Hot stove talk on M&MD. BJ Ryan does not want to be a setup guy and is not in love with coming to the Yankees.

Edgy DC Nov 22 2005 11:02 AM

Mets throw it all at Wagner Wine and dine free-agent closer, ready big-dollar pitch BY ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Billy Wagner throws fastballs at 100 mph. Yesterday the coveted free-agent closer began receiving a full-throttle pitch from the Mets that is expected to include a $30 million offer today. Tom Glavine and his wife Chris1 met the Wagners at Westchester County Airport in the morning, then accompanied them on a tour of housing options in Westchester and Connecticut. The couples had lunch in Greenwich. 1 Christine Glavine: While Wagner's wife Sarah2 joined an acquaintance of agent Bean Stringfellow3 at "The Phantom of the Opera" last night, Wagner was to dine in midtown Manhattan with principal owner Fred Wilpon, chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon, GM Omar Minaya and special assistant Tony Bernazard. 2 I can't find a picture of Sarah Wagner, but here's Shonda Schilling: 3 Bean Freakiing Stringfellow! Glavine selected New York over Philadelphia during a recruiting visit three years ago, when the Mets trotted out Mayor Bloomberg4, hockey Hall of Famer Rod Gilbert and then-Rangers goaltender Mike Richter to meet the former fourth-round pick of the Los Angeles Kings. Glavine was swayed in part by the veteran presence in the Mets' clubhouse compared with a relatively youthful Phillies clubhouse then. In Wagner's case, the visit was designed more to accentuate the comforts of suburban living given the closer's small-town roots. 4 On one hand, cool, the mayor is giving us equal time. On the other hand, he's helped the Yanks get get better than Glavine, hasn't he? In advance of the visit, the Mets shipped Wagner a DVD with the theme, "There's no other city like New York." Among the celebrities pitching the Big Apple: country singer Tim McGraw, Queens-born sportscaster Bob Costas, actor Kevin James5 of "King of Queens" and Jerry Seinfeld. 5 I always consult Kevin James before making life decisions. McGraw's hit song "Live Like You Were Dying" and an accompanying video tribute to his father Tug - the inspirational pitcher from the '73 Mets who also played 10 seasons with the Phillies - actually was played each game in Philadelphia during the 2005 season6. 6 So he's already heard that song at every home game this year in Philadelphia and it's supposed to sell him on New York? Heck, I've heard it maybe four times and I'm sick of it. "Hey, Wags, you too can have a stature as big as Tugger in this town if you'd just close out a championship, get brain cancer, and die. The Mets are expected to make the offer to Wagner before he flies out this afternoon. All indications are team brass intends to outbid the Phillies - guaranteeing at least three years at $10 million-$11 million per season, and potentially going to a fourth year like it did to lure Pedro Martinez. Wagner indicated last week that an improved offer from the Phillies was coming early this week, too. New Phillies GM Pat Gillick and manager Charlie Manuel visited Wagner at the closer's home near Charlottesville, Va., last Wednesday and impressed him. Philadelphia's initial bid didn't guarantee a third season, though the '08 option was believed to be easily attainable if Wagner stayed healthy. Wagner also acknowledged interest from the Braves and Red Sox and told ESPN.com he hoped to make a decsion by Dec. 9. "But I'm also willing to sit there and wait to find out who does what with their team. So it could be later," he told the Web site. Before visiting New York, Wagner was thought to be moved by Gillick's in-person pitch and leaning toward returning to Philadelphia, where he's comfortable. He plans to address his situation today at Shea Stadium. Wagner, 34, went 4-3 with a 1.51 ERA and 38 saves in 41 chances last season. "It would definitely be a huge pickup for us," infielder Chris Woodward said. "He's one of the closers that you pretty much consider the game to be over when he comes in. To have that kind of player on your team, you feel like you'll win every time you have the lead. That's a huge advantage. It would be tremendous for us." The Mets have contingency plans if Wagner returns to Philadelphia. They have dined with B.J. Ryan in New York, while free agent relievers Trevor Hoffman7, Tom Gordon8 and Bob Wickman9 also are available. Via trade, the Mets could attempt to obtain Danys Baez from the Devil Rays10. 7 Only short-term. 8 Only short-term and incentive-laden. 9 Pass. 10 Passity pass.

metirish Nov 22 2005 11:20 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 22 2005 11:27 AM

Bob Klapisch thinks the Mets are naive... ] Like a high school senior being recruited by a major college program, Billy Wagner got the full-metal-jacket tour of greater New York on Monday - surveying the Westchester and Connecticut suburbs with Tom Glavine and Jeff Wilpon in the afternoon, before being whisked off to a four-course meal in Manhattan with all the firepower the Mets could muster. By nightfall, Wagner was being courted by five organizational elders, including general manager Omar Minaya, assistant Tony Bernazard and manager Willie Randolph. It was a cosmetically perfect event for the Mets, but otherwise useless in their courtship of Wagner. The closer is in town for one reason only - to find out how much cash, not dinner, the Mets can put on the table. Indeed, that's the most pressing question of this young off-season: Will the Mets go to a fourth year to nail down the game's hardest-throwing lefty? One club source says, "We're not there yet," which could doom the courtship. Wagner told friends he could see himself living in New York, but it won't happen unless the Mets outbid the Phillies by plenty. To get there, Minaya will have to clone the dollar-orgy that pried Pedro Martinez away from the Red Sox last year. Pedro got the same one-on-one recruitment from the Mets - Minaya actually went to his home in the Dominican Republic during Thanksgiving - but it wasn't until the GM coughed up a fourth year that Pedro finally said goodbye to Red Sox Nation. It had nothing to do with the fact that Minaya and Martinez, both Dominicans, spoke in their native tongues. It wasn't New York that sold Pedro. Not once did Martinez mention the theater district or the Statue of Liberty as the reason for turning his back on the world champion Red Sox. The Mets simply wrote a bigger check. That's why the Wagner Tour, so touchingly publicity-conscious, is also so stunningly naïve. Do the Mets really think a sightseeing tour possibly would influence where Wagner plays in 2006? He's a 34-year-old man, not some pale, gawking teenager on his first trip to New York. Wagner has been in the big leagues since 1995, long enough to know a) Manhattan is busy, b) the suburbs are green and c) this is the biggest stage in the baseball universe - loud and obnoxious, passionate and utterly committed all at once. Some can handle the fury here. Many cannot. Wagner is at least interested enough to hear what the Mets have to say later today, when the offer from the Wilpon family finally is handed down. If the Mets are stuck at three years at, say, $30 million-$31 million, the tour will have been a waste of time, money and gasoline. Wagner likely will head back to the Phillies, who are trying to convince him that newly hired GM Pat Gillick can end the 12-year postseason drought. The Mets are working on a much shorter dry spell, but they're still recovering from the effects of the Art Howe dark age. It was the Phillies, not the Mets, who missed the playoffs by one game this past season, and the only way the Mets - who finished six games behind in the wild card and seven behind the Braves in the East - can gloss over that deficit is to pay. And pay. Getting better players helps, too. Minaya is interested in Carlos Delgado and Luis Castillo, both of whom are ready to be dealt by the dollar-starved Marlins. Already, the gutting has begun in Florida, where Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell may be headed to the Red Sox in a deal that will drive the Marlins to their ultimate goal, a $40 million payroll. If Beckett, who suffers from chronic blister problems, can somehow stay healthy, the Yankees have every reason to sweat. But the Marlins aren't blindly generous. The Mets think there's little chance they'll be able to land Delgado or Castillo, not as long as Florida has other options such as the Orioles. "No way they want to send either guy, especially Delgado, within the division," is how one Met executive put it. Manny Ramirez is another possibility, but that quest will take weeks, if not a month or perhaps two, depending on whether the Sox are able to re-sign Johnny Damon. That's why the Mets are looking for closure with Wagner soon - this week, if possible. They have other options, including B.J. Ryan and Danys Baez, although the size and scope of Monday's Tour De Big Apple tells you who the Mets really covet. It's Wagner and his 100-mph fastball. It's his savage hits-to-innings ratio (45 to 75) and his ability to strike out more than a batter an inning. Those are the qualities that make managers dream of the postseason. And, conversely, it's what drains a GM's coffers. Later today, the world will find out exactly what Wagner is worth to the Mets, when the offer finally becomes real. By then, the limousine ride to the suburbs will be history. The dinner in Manhattan will be digested and forgotten, too. There's only one recruitment tool that matters now - the old-fashioned, old-school offer that Wagner can't refuse. E-mail: klapisch@northjersey.com

Valadius Nov 22 2005 11:23 AM

If we get Wagner, I already have a great nickname for him. Stay tuned...

Nymr83 Nov 22 2005 11:27 AM

Ryan's stats, besides k/9, just dont excite me. if we're going outside the organization it should be Wagner, but at what price? do we really want to go 4 years on him at his age?

ScarletKnight41 Nov 22 2005 11:28 AM

Valadius wrote: If we get Wagner, I already have a great nickname for him. Stay tuned... Fine. But Nady is the X-Man. Nothing else will do.

Valadius Nov 22 2005 11:30 AM

Wagner will be an X-Man too... *hint hint*

Edgy DC Nov 22 2005 11:32 AM

Nightcrawler.

Valadius Nov 22 2005 11:32 AM

Ding ding ding!

Edgy DC Nov 22 2005 11:48 AM

Eh. We'll see.

Nymr83 Nov 22 2005 11:50 AM Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Nov 22 2005 12:03 PM

...

seawolf17 Nov 22 2005 12:00 PM

Can't give a guy a nickname if he already has one... I don't know that "Billy Wags" is necessarily Hall of Fame Nickname material, but...

Nymr83 Nov 22 2005 12:04 PM

Rotblatt Nov 22 2005 12:26 PM

]"No way they want to send either guy, especially Delgado, within the division," is how one Met executive put it. I drank that kool-aid initially, but now that the Marlins are selling off all their talent, what difference does it make where they go? I mean, it's clear that they're not going to compete next year, so who cares if they trade to a "rival"? Incidentally, I think the Marlins conceding 2006 is good news for the NL East. We'll have our very own D-Rays to beat up on.

Valadius Nov 22 2005 03:56 PM

Nightcrawler apparently likes what he sees, soon to get an offer from the Mets: Mets set to make offer to closer Wagner NEW YORK (AP) -- The Mets want Billy Wagner to come to New York, and the bullpen ace sounds as if he likes their sales pitch. After two days of meetings with the pitcher and his wife, Sarah, the Mets were set to offer Wagner a contract Tuesday as they try to improve one of their biggest weaknesses from last season. "They're not just trying to put a competitive team on the field, they're going to put a winning team on this field," Wagner said. General manager Omar Minaya believes Wagner is the pitcher to help them do it. "It's a judgment thing," Minaya said at Shea Stadium. "To be a closer I think itself is something that's difficult. But I do believe he has it to be able to do it in this town. "The ability to bounce back, that's what makes closers special." Wagner was 4-3 with 38 saves and a 1.51 ERA last season for Philadelphia, which wants to re-sign him. After spending most of his career with Houston, his two seasons with the Phillies showed the left-hander he could handle pitching in a tough city. "I think if I had an opportunity to play in New York four or five years ago, I probably wouldn't have been as receptive to it," Wagner said. "After the trade of going to Philadelphia and playing there, I believe that's made it that much easier to handle the media, the pressures." Wagner had lunch and dinner with a number of Mets officials Monday, including Fred and Jeff Wilpon and manager Willie Randolph. Minaya, who wouldn't detail what type offer the team would make to Wagner, knows it will be difficult getting him to leave Philadelphia. "It's tough for a player to leave a team that he's already accustomed to, so we have to work even harder," Minaya said. "You have to give a reason why." Wagner mentioned some of the reasons, including his family being comfortable and him being able to reach 400 saves -- he has 284. He also wants to play on a winning team, and the Mets are showing him they expect to be one. "And that's exciting when you know the resources and the things that they're capable of doing," Wagner said.

Elster88 Nov 22 2005 04:02 PM

]"They're not just trying to put a competitive team on the field, they're going to put a winning team on this field," Wagner said. Once, just once, before I die, I want a ballplayer to drop the bullshit and give me something along the lines of Cuba Gooding, Jr's thoughts from Jerry Maguire. Just last week Wagner was saying how impressed he was with Philadelphia's committment to building a better team and improving their staff and blah, blah, blah. STFU and sign a contract. BTW, I think BJ Ryan >> Wagner from a who-should-we-sign view.

Valadius Nov 22 2005 04:03 PM

You know, when you pose against a background with a team logo on it, you're probably leaning towards signing there if you're a free agent: Billy "Nightcrawler" Wagner:

Elster88 Nov 22 2005 04:05 PM

I am happy with Wagner though. He's one of the better closers out there. Little man throws GAS. _____________________________ This was Elster88's last post with the designation of a character from Super Mario Bros.

ScarletKnight41 Nov 22 2005 04:14 PM

Switch Hitter's kids would be Mets fans if Wagner came here.

Centerfield Nov 22 2005 04:23 PM

If I'm the Phillies, I bring in Armando Benitez as part of my efforts to keep Wagner out of New York. Gillick: "Hey Mando, why don't you tell Billy what it's like to be a top of the line closer on championship Mets team..."

Rotblatt Nov 22 2005 04:30 PM

In general, I don't want us to sign anyone until December 7, at which point, we don't have to worry about losing draft picks. Can Omar wait 15 days? On the other hand, can the free agents afford to last that long? I bet Burnett lost some money when Beckett got traded, since the Sox probably won't enter the bidding . . . And if both Manny & Delgado get traded, the market willing to pay Konerko big bucks is going to get a lot smaller. There's less talk of trading for closers, but only because the market's glutted with them. Which is why I think we can wait a while . . .

Nymr83 Nov 22 2005 04:31 PM

just dont throw your fastball down the middle 10 straight times whenever you're in trouble and you'll be fine. i always thought that was Benitez's problem, he had 2 or 3 good pitches but when he got into a "clutch" situation he didn't believe in anything but his heater, hitters eventually catch up to fastballs when they know that its coming.

Frayed Knot Nov 22 2005 04:38 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 22 2005 04:41 PM

]i always thought that was Benitez's problem, he had 2 or 3 good pitches but when he got into a "clutch" situation he didn't believe in anything but his heater, hitters eventually catch up to fastballs when they know that its coming. [deadhorse] Well, seeing as how the stats from Benitez & Wagner are about as identical as 2 closers can be over a 5-6 year period, then it would stand to reason that either Wagner is "choking" in about the same rate as Armando, or that you believe Armando to be so dramatically superior that his stats should be even better did he not have this "problem".[/deadhorse] OK, I give up ... why "Nightcrawler"?

Elster88 Nov 22 2005 04:40 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 22 2005 04:43 PM

]"Hey Mando, why don't you tell Billy what it's like to be a top of the line closer on championship Mets team..." "Hey Schmitty, what's it like to be the greatest third baseman of all time and get booed?" Gimme a break. There are asshole fans in every town. OE: I will only be posting another 19 posts. (much to everyone's delight I'm sure) _____________________________ AN ALMIGHTY 119) KEVIN ELSTER POST

Yancy Street Gang Nov 22 2005 04:42 PM

]OK, I give up ... why "Nightcrawler"? The real name of the X-Men's Nightcrawler is Kurt Wagner. I predict that this nickname will be as infrequently used as "Jake Monster."

Nymr83 Nov 22 2005 04:42 PM

i believe that Benitez had about the same overall talent level as Wagner, BUT i think Benitez had the problem of relying solely on his fastball in big spots and thats what got him in trouble in the clutch when he seemed to be better in low-pressre spots.

Frayed Knot Nov 22 2005 04:47 PM

You'll have a tough time proving the part about how he was better in "non-clutch" situations. As much as Met fans tend to believe otherwise, Armando's bad outings during his stint here were randonly distributed thoughout the year and against a variety of teams rather than being predictable in advance.

Vic Sage Nov 22 2005 04:52 PM

There you go again, Frayedy cat... FACTS. Always with the facts. What do facts have to do with anything?!!

Willets Point Nov 22 2005 04:57 PM

="Frayed Knot"] [deadhorse] Well, seeing as how the stats from Benitez & Wagner are about as identical as 2 closers can be over a 5-6 year period, then it would stand to reason that either Wagner is "choking" in about the same rate as Armando, or that you believe Armando to be so dramatically superior that his stats should be even better did he not have this "problem".[/deadhorse] You need something like this FK: seawolf17 Nov 22 2005 04:58 PM Sometimes -- like specifically when talking about guys I don't like, such as the aforementioned Senor Benitez -- I don't like when people bring stats into the equation. As far as I'm concerned, Armando Benitez blew every single one of his save opportunities as a Met. And that's the way I'll always remember him. Vic Sage Nov 22 2005 05:06 PM But of course that says more about you than about Senor Benitez. seawolf17 Nov 22 2005 05:08 PM Right. But that's (a) my prerogative as a fan, to despise a former player who I think harmed my team, and (b) part of the job of the modern closer. People will only remember the blown saves. Edgy DC Nov 22 2005 05:12 PM Now, now. Speak for yourself, Bobby Brown. OE: What's part of the job of the modern closer? Valadius Nov 22 2005 08:40 PM Omar has reportedly just made an initial offer to Billy "Nightcrawler" Wagner. Frayed Knot Nov 22 2005 10:30 PM That (an offer) was pretty much the plan following his 2-day tour of NYC. Now he likely goes back to Philly to hear a counter-offer. What he wants, of course, is to have one or the other blink and guarantee him a 4th year. I'm betting the initial offers don't have it but Wagner shirley knows that the Mets went there for Pedro. Bottom line on the Armando/Wagner comparison is that their stats (ERA, K/9, WHiP, BAA, Sv Pct, etc.) put them as close to identical twins as 2 closers can get after 6 or so years on the job -- or at least as close as a large, black, Dominican righty and a small, white, West Virginian lefty can get. So if the fan believes that Billy boy's hits given up and blown saves (which, virtually by definition, are going to pop up as often as Armando's did) are somehow going come at times where the fan won't mind then said fan is kidding himself. metirish Nov 22 2005 10:47 PM For what it's worth on MSG they showed the Wagner press conference and then the host said Wags was looking for 5 years,he said the Mets probably offered four years $40 million. Valadius Nov 22 2005 10:48 PM There's no WAY you can guarantee a five-year deal with a closer. No WAY! Nymr83 Nov 22 2005 10:54 PM i really dont like gauranteeing 4 either, i'd give 3 at 30 million with a 4th that kicks in based on innings in the 2nd and 3rd years, maybe a fifth that can be exercized by the club with a buyout abogdan Nov 23 2005 08:41 AM [url=http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/31715.htm]The Post[/url] says the Mets offered 3 for $33 with an year option based on innings pitched that would make the deal worth $44 million. I don't like it. Way too much to give to a reliever who will turn 35 in the first year of the deal. smg58 Nov 23 2005 09:06 AM $11M would be more per year than Rivera or Gagne. And with so many other relievers on the market, too. I couldn't support this if it's true. I hope the Mets remember that Beltran's contract is heavily backloaded, and that Reyes gets arbitration after 06 and Wright after 07. The "win now or die" approach is great if you win now, but... Elster88 Nov 23 2005 09:11 AM I'm currently driving the BJ Ryan bandwagon. Would anyone else like to climb aboard? _____________________________ AN ALMIGHTY 119) KEVIN ELSTER POST Nymr83 Nov 23 2005 01:31 PM i'm not so confident in Ryan. If Wagner will cost this much maybe its time to show Heilman some love and trade for a guy in June if necessary. cooby Nov 23 2005 01:32 PM I have a question: Is Looper officially GONE? (which would make Thanksgiving that much more meaningful) Edgy DC Nov 23 2005 01:35 PM Yes and no. He's a free agent, but hasn't signed with anyone. cooby Nov 23 2005 01:37 PM So there is still some trepidation... Yancy Street Gang Nov 23 2005 01:41 PM If Looper comes back (which I doubt) it'll probably be as an 8th inning guy. Frayed Knot Nov 23 2005 01:42 PM Elster88 wrote: I'm currently driving the BJ Ryan bandwagon. Would anyone else like to climb aboard? Fine with me but I suspect that BJR is content to wait until Wagner sets the benchmark with his deal. If Wags can wrangle $12/per then Ryan can ask for $10, if Billy gets $10 then he knows he's shooting for $8, etc. I think Omar prefers to strike early rather than to bypass Wagner only to wait around for Ryan only to find him almost as expensive and probably with more suitors. cooby Nov 23 2005 01:42 PM Soon enough to blow the game :( metirish Nov 23 2005 01:49 PM No worries Cobby, trepidation could come on the form of Tom Gordon. cooby Nov 23 2005 01:52 PM Cobby? metirish Nov 23 2005 01:55 PM LOL..sorry Cooby.... Valadius Nov 23 2005 03:34 PM I've been on the BJ Ryan bandwagon most of the offseason - until I came up with "Nightcrawler". Well no, actually I still prefer Ryan, but either one looks good to me. Yancy Street Gang Nov 24 2005 07:35 AM From the Daily News: Wagner: It's a 'one-horse race' Billy Wagner criticized the Phillies' efforts to retain him, telling the Mets' Web site his current team is "taking one step back to take one step forward" and calling the Mets' pursuit a "one-horse race." The Phillies were believed to have upped their offer yesterday, guaranteeing a third year at roughly $30 million, but seem reluctant to trump Mariano Rivera's $10.5 million salary. The Mets initially offered three years at more than $30 million with an '09 option. Adam Rubin seawolf17 Nov 24 2005 07:45 AM Great! Omar loves one-horse races. I bet he doubles his offer to Wagner now. Wags: Well, Omar, I really like your offer, and I think I'm going to accept it. Omar: Three years, $30 million. Wags: Sure. That's great. Where do I sign? Omar: Four years, $70 million. Wags: No, seriously, I'm ready to sign. Omar: Five years, $150 million, we name the new ballpark Wagner Stadium. Wags: Um... I guess so. Can I sign now? Omar: Okay, fine! Five years, $200 million. Rotblatt Nov 24 2005 08:04 AM Yeah, I gotta say, when a free agent says "it's a one-horse race" I have two thoughts. Either: 1. The guy is really fucking stupid 2. The guy is desperately trying to shame a second horse into making a push. I'm guessing it's #2 in Wagner's case. Frayed Knot Nov 24 2005 09:21 AM Wagner mentioned in an interview the other day that both Boston & Atlanta had expressed interest - but at the same time said he had no plans for more tour-like visits so who knows how strong their "interest" is, or even if it truly exists. Smart money at this point bleieves he'll wind up in either NY or Philly but stuff like Vlad to Ananheim have a habit of coming out of nowhere. I'd really like to stay away fom a 4th year, or even a Glavine-like option that can be reached by merely decent performance. smg58 Nov 24 2005 10:03 AM Wagner's trying to push up the Phillies' offer, but it would be a major upset at this point if he doesn't sign with the Mets. Hopefully we won't be paying more per year than the Yankees pay Rivera ($10.5M), but we'll see. Edgy DC Nov 24 2005 10:49 AM It was a coded message. See, a Phillie is a horse, and a Met isn't. abogdan Nov 25 2005 08:20 PM The 2006 Met closer won't be B.J. Ryan. [url=http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/369023p-313970c.html]The News[/url] sez he's going to Toronto, 5 years, $47 million. Wow. metirish Nov 25 2005 10:35 PM WOW that's some cabbage for Ryan, Toronto said they had lots of money to spend this off-season, I guess they are spending it, what impact will this have on Wagner? Rotblatt Nov 26 2005 08:41 AM Okay, so that's just crazy. It makes all the other "proven" closers like Wagner & Hoffman & Gordon that much pricier. In this kind of market, I'd just as soon lay low . . . But we're clearly going balls out for Wagner. I still think he's going to wind up a Philly, though, which means we'll probably wind up with an overpayed Hoffman. Frayed Knot Nov 26 2005 08:51 AM I wouldn't have thought that Ryan would get that much per year ($9.4) OR that many years ... much less both. Toronto GM Riccardi, btw, is still denying the numbers or that there's a deal in place -- but that's just prolly because things aren't finalized yet. Rockin' Doc Nov 27 2005 09:02 PM Ryan's deal with Toronto will likely drive up the cost of closers. I think Toronto overextended themselves, both in terms of years and annual salary. They will likely regret this deal, but I could be wrong. Time will tell. I expect Wagner will try to use Ryan's contract to leverage a longer term on his deal. I would like to see the Mets land Wagner, but if they have to garuantee a fourth year, then they should let him go in my opinion. Particularly if they are looking at an annual salary of $11 mil., which I think is absurd. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Still a lot of time left before spring. Rotblatt Nov 28 2005 12:43 PM Huh. Dude over at Hardball Times thinks Ryan's deal may actually be worth it for the Jays. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-ryan-worth-it/ Nymr83 Nov 28 2005 12:53 PM an interesting article with some interesting points, but my response would be this: even if you want a player, he is only worth $1 more than the next highest bid, and i find it hard to believe that anyone else made Ryan a 4 year commitment, much less a 5 year one at that kind of money. Frayed Knot Nov 28 2005 12:59 PM Newsday: BoSox reportedly to make offer to Wagner, maybe as soon as today. sharpie Nov 28 2005 01:15 PM Yeah, but will they take his wife to Phantom of the Opera? seawolf17 Nov 28 2005 01:40 PM Wait. We took Wagner to see Phantom Of The Freaking Opera? Why didn't we just kick him in the nuts and ask him to work in the team store before games? Edgy DC Nov 28 2005 01:44 PM I believe those were the terms of McEwing's last contract. ScarletKnight41 Nov 28 2005 01:50 PM seawolf17 wrote: Wait. We took Wagner to see Phantom Of The Freaking Opera? Why didn't we just kick him in the nuts and ask him to work in the team store before games? ROFL Wolf! I agree with you totally (although my 16-year-old disagrees vehemently - she loves that musical). Yancy Street Gang Nov 28 2005 01:56 PM Nymr83 wrote: an interesting article with some interesting points, but my response would be this: even if you want a player, he is only worth $1 more than the next highest bid. That's not entirely true, Namor. Let's take a fictional player, who likes sunshine, warm weather, and wants to get into the postseason. The Angels offer him $30 million over three years. Are you saying that the Brewers could sign him for $30,000,001 over three? I doubt it. They'd have to sweeten the pot quite a bit for him to opt to toil in Milwaukee. I'm not saying that players aren't mercenary. But other things do factor in as well. Vic Sage Nov 28 2005 02:07 PM Griffey took less to go to Cinncy. Paul O'Neil took less to stay in NY. It happens plenty. Not necessarily out of altruism, or sentimentality, but out of practicality. Moving your family is a huge pain in the ass, and taking your kids out of 1 school and putting them in another can be devastating for them. Some guys just like to work near where they live, rather than have to live where they work. Sure, all things being equal, money talks loudest. But all things are rarely equal. Edgy DC Nov 28 2005 02:30 PM ""Money doesn't talk; it swears." -- Bob Dylan Valadius Nov 28 2005 04:24 PM We got him. Edgy DC Nov 28 2005 04:25 PM Huh? We got Vagner? Vhat is ze source? OE: Ah, ze udder threat. Valadius Nov 28 2005 04:37 PM Should we keep this going as a Bullpen - 2006 thread or let it die now that the need's been addressed? Yancy Street Gang Nov 28 2005 04:40 PM Valadius wrote: Creator of "Jake-Monster" and "Nightcrawler" Oh brother. Elster88 Nov 28 2005 04:41 PM Who the hell is nightcrawler? Valadius Nov 28 2005 04:43 PM Billy Wagner. Kurt Wagner is the given name of Nightcrawler in X-Men. Centerfield Nov 28 2005 04:44 PM Valadius wrote: Should we keep this going as a Bullpen - 2006 thread or let it die now that the need's been addressed? I done started another thread already. Valadius Nov 28 2005 04:47 PM Thanks CF. Elster88 Nov 28 2005 04:47 PM ]Billy Wagner. Kurt Wagner is the given name of Nightcrawler in X-Men. I'll leave that one alone. Yancy Street Gang Nov 28 2005 04:52 PM "Bionic Woman" makes as much sense as "Nightcrawler". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Creator of "Bionic Woman" and "Lint Monster." sharpie Nov 28 2005 04:55 PM Or "Siegfried" (Richard Wagner, the composer, wrote the opera). ---- Creater of "Siegfried" Elster88 Nov 28 2005 04:56 PM Maybe I should add "Creator of Asshead" to my sig line. Johnny Dickshot Nov 28 2005 05:06 PM test Valadius Nov 28 2005 05:08 PM Oh come on now... Rockin' Doc Nov 28 2005 08:57 PM Dickshot - Creator of "Caustic Fucktard" Game over. Thanks to all other contributors, but we already have our winner. That was a classic. If memory serves me, I believe Johnny (as Wide Bee Gee) first used the term "ass clown" on the old CPF. Elster88 Nov 28 2005 11:25 PM I was only kidding. I'm sure that people have called him an asshole long before any of us were born and will continue to long after we are dust. And by "him", I'm referring to a certain bat throwing juicehead psycho pitcher. Valadius Nov 28 2005 11:48 PM Oh, so that's who you meant... by all means, go ahead.