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Manny to the Mets is an AWFUL idea

HappyRecap Nov 11 2005 12:07 PM

I have to question the sanity of anyone who thinks that the Mets should deal for Manny Ramirez. Here are the facts: 1) He is not a good fielder. Not debatable at all. 2) Huge contract. Why pay for the backend of his deal when we didn't want to pay him that much when he signed with Boston in December of 2000? 3) His batting average has dropped 57 pts over the last four year to this past year where he batted under .300 (.292) and that was with Ortiz hitting behind him which he he won't have in NY. Overall, he is 34, has DH written all over him and is ill-suited for Shea.. I say no way to Manny. Just one Met fans opinion. HappyRecap

Elster88 Nov 11 2005 12:29 PM

Welcome aboardick. RMPL.

ScarletKnight41 Nov 11 2005 12:42 PM

Welcome HR!

MFS62 Nov 11 2005 12:43 PM

Welcome, Rookie. Now get up on the table in the middle of the room and sing your school fight song. Later

Edgy DC Nov 11 2005 02:59 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 11 2005 06:54 PM

Just one Met fan's undebateable opinion.

Nymr83 Nov 11 2005 03:21 PM

NOT trading for Manny if the opportunity presents itself would be stupid. f* his fielding, f* his contract, f* his "diva" personality...he is one of the best hitters in thegame and that is exactly what the Mets need.

Zvon Nov 11 2005 03:42 PM

144 RBIs...thats alot a run production......... But the Mets don't [u:5cec58128b]need[/u:5cec58128b] him, as far as Im concerned. The NY Post today sez that Manny is low on the Mets cause his family lives in NY and he feels that it would be a distraction. Thats wack. Just Manny bein Manny, I guess.

KC Nov 11 2005 03:42 PM

f* Manny

Mex17 Nov 11 2005 03:52 PM

Nymr83 wrote: NOT trading for Manny if the opportunity presents itself would be stupid. f* his fielding, f* his contract, f* his "diva" personality...he is one of the best hitters in thegame and that is exactly what the Mets need. What he said.

KC Nov 11 2005 04:43 PM

Why do we need Manny - his eye-popping-roto-woody stats are gonna what? He can go do his cute two finger pointing somewhere else and cost another team a boat load of money and players, you can still have your roto-woodies.

TheOldMole Nov 11 2005 05:13 PM

Happy - what a great name. Welcome.

TheOldMole Nov 11 2005 05:14 PM

Nymr....what about "f* his fielding, f* his contract, f* his "diva" personality" for a sig line?

seawolf17 Nov 11 2005 05:42 PM

Are you all on crack?!? We're talking about Manny Ramirez here. I'd pay him $50 million if I was the Wilpons. Career BA: .314 League Career BA: .273 (the league average during his career) Number of Mets with a lifetime BA over .300: ONE (John Olerud .315) Career OBP: .409 League Career OBP: .343 Number of Mets with a lifetime OBP over .400: ONE (John Olerud .425) Career SLG: .599 League Career SLG: .436 Number of Mets with a lifetime SLG over .550: ZERO (Mike Piazza .542) Career OPS: 1.008 League Career OPS: .780 Number of Mets with a lifetime OPS over 1.000: ZERO (John Olerud .926) He instantly becomes the most dangerous offensive player ever to wear a Mets uniform... and he's only 33. B-R.com lists only one player, Juan Gonzalez, with a similarity score over 860 to Man-Ram... and it's only 913. That's because there has never been a hitter like Manny. I'd put him on my team, and I'd put him on my team now.

KC Nov 11 2005 06:20 PM

>>>Are you all on crack?<<< Good lord no, I only free base. These arguments need to distinguish what direction a team is going in (or where an individual poster wants it to go - next year - the year after) and who is a great player or not. It's not rocket science and it doesn't need to be spelled out like that wolfie, we know the stats - I just don't see the Mets going in the direction of taking Manny off the Sawx' hands. Fuck them, they won their World Series with him. Deal with him, send him to the Yanks for all I care.

Nymr83 Nov 11 2005 06:49 PM

seawolf17 wrote: ONE (John Olerud .315) ONE (John Olerud .425) ZERO (John Olerud .926) the moral of Seawolf's post? John Olerud is the best met ever.

cooby Nov 11 2005 06:50 PM

And Manny could be second best

Edgy DC Nov 11 2005 06:59 PM

Mike Piazza has taught me (among many other lessons) that coming into town as a .300-.400-.500 doesn't mean you're going to continue mark up the town as one.

Nymr83 Nov 11 2005 07:53 PM

the offensive decline for catchers (usually linked to getting more and more frequently injured) does always seem to set in earlier than it does for other players. manny's career line is .314/.409/.599....i'd take .280/.380/.540 which would be a dropoff of .034/.029/.059 from his career and .012/.008/.055 from this past year. he hasn't had an OPS+ under 143 since before the strike, his lowest as a Red Sock was 152 in 2004, even if he declines i have no reason to believe he'll do so at the speed that others seem to be suggesting.

rpackrat Nov 11 2005 07:58 PM

As alsways, however, the question is what you have to give up to get him. With no offense intended to Happy Recap, the idea that the Mets should under no circumstances get Manny is just stupid. As others have pointed out he is one of the best hitters in the history of the game. But certainly his age, his contract, and his lack of defensive ability all reduce his value, i.e. what you should be willing to give up to get him. If the Sox are willing to let him go in a salary dump, e.g., straight up for Cameron, go for it. If they demand Milledge and Petit, say no thanks.

Nymr83 Nov 11 2005 08:19 PM

i'm reluctant to trade milledge, i'd say YES to an offer of Cameron and Petit, i think most here agree with that? what about Cameron, Petit, and Bannister? too much?

metirish Nov 11 2005 08:26 PM

It would be fun to see Manny pissing all over the tomato plants in the bullpen...Manny being Manny..

Rotblatt Nov 12 2005 06:07 AM Re: Manny to the Mets is an AWFUL idea

Welcome aboard, Happy! With regards to his contract, it's likely that the Sox would take on some portion of it, ala the Yanks with Vazquez (I think they're paying $3M a year or so to AZ for him). So we won't actually be paying him $20M per year. We'd still be paying him a shitload, true, but we'd get a little relief. And while sure, he's starting to decline as a hitter, in all likeliehood, he'll still be one of the best hitters out there over the next three years--that's just how good he's been, as seawolf makes clear. Willie McCovey is most similar by age, although unlike Manny, he had a history of injuries and never hit for average. Anyway, in his 34-36 seasons, he managed to put up OPS+'s of 103 (injured half the year but still with 18 HR), 162 (383 AB, 29 HR, .409 OBP) & 162 (344 AB, 22 HR, .416 OBP). Shit, if all we had to give up was Cameron, Petit & pay him $17M per year, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat--crappy defense or not.

KC Nov 12 2005 06:38 AM

Hasn't Manny, his staff, the press and/or a combination of the three said that he has no desire to come to the Mets? If he thought his life was hell with the media and no privacy in Boston (which was probably a lot of crock, but really 'Manny being Manny' - I hate that stupid shit by the way) then what makes everyone think it's going to be more pleasant in NY for him after going 0-4 on a Sunday night in the Subway Series getting swept by the Yankees? If he ends up here and they don't give up a lot, fine. But I'm not going to get myself all lathered up and dream about it either because I don't think it will have a happy ending.

seawolf17 Nov 12 2005 07:11 AM

I just don't get what's not to love about this guy. We spooge all over Carlos Bonilleltran -- and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because I still think he'll be great -- but when you have the chance to add one of the premier offensive players in the game, you do it, and you don't let a 20-year-old outfielder stop you.

KC Nov 12 2005 07:19 AM

Spoogin' and on crack - anyone else want to paint some more for the word picture of the anti-Manny-to-the-Mets fan?

seawolf17 Nov 12 2005 07:22 AM

I'm not even 100% sure why I'm getting all defensive over him all of a sudden... I just can't say unequivocably that it's an "awful" idea. Asking Al Leiter to play 150 games at second base in 2006 is an "awful" idea. Signing Darryl Strawberry to a minor-league deal "just in case he rediscovers his stroke" is an "awful" idea. Adding a guy who goes .310/.420/.600 on a regular basis and drives in runs just by falling out of bed is never, ever, ever, ever an awful idea.

cooby Nov 12 2005 07:26 AM

Asking AL Leiter to play 1.5 games at pitcher is a bad idea, but I digress. I want Manny on my team. Not only does he instantly improve the team, he is fun to watch. And come on, his defense is not that bad. Stop watching ESPN highlights and watch him over the course of a season to make your judgments on that. And stealing Pedro and Manny from the Red Sox just tickles my fancy; I am that sick of them already

Frayed Knot Nov 12 2005 07:45 AM

]I just don't get what's not to love about this guy Maybe that he's already overpaid - and that he's not going to suddenly start getting better at age 34 - and that his defense - oh yes it IS that bad - will pop up even more as he goes from the smallest LF in baseball to one of the larger ones - and that we don't have the luxury of the DH to hide him - and that he considers running out hits and grounders as something to do only on an occasional basis Look, it's not a question of not wanting a bat like his, it's a matter of not wanting him considering the price it'll probably take to get him. If he was a FA this year not only would he NOT get the money on a per/yr bases that he's making now but you have to cough up players for him as well. IOW, without a substantial discount, you'd be paying for him twice and I'm tired of getting "name players" only because we're willing to pick up the oft-ugly back end of huge contracts. P.S. For the first time in years, I kinda like our existing OF.

Edgy DC Nov 12 2005 11:26 AM

Our outfield needs more depth, not more heft. ]then what makes everyone think it's going to be more pleasant in NY for him after going 0-4 on a Sunday night in the Subway Series getting swept by the Yankees? Wait. Is he going to play against the Yankees? I have to rethink this.

OlerudOwned Nov 12 2005 11:59 AM

Nymr83 wrote: ="seawolf17"] ONE (John Olerud .315) ONE (John Olerud .425) ZERO (John Olerud .926) the moral of Seawolf's post? John Olerud is the best met ever. Damn straight

Willets Point Nov 12 2005 12:00 PM

I'm FULL of AWE regarding the trade for Manny.

Edgy DC Nov 12 2005 01:49 PM

This should be obvious, but I'd say no, Olerud is not the best Met ever, he's a good object lesson that you can leave a nice flavor if you arrive in town just as you've put your growing pains behind you, at your peak, and leave before you start do dramatically decline. And, if you're a hitter, it's good to do so during an offensive upsurge throughout the league.

OlerudOwned Nov 12 2005 01:56 PM

Edgy DC wrote: This should be obvious, but, no, Olerud is not the best Met ever, he's a good object lesson that you can leave a nice flavor if you arrive in town just as you've put your growing pains behind you, at your peak, and leave before you start do dramatically decline. And, if you're a hitter, it's good to do so during an offensive upsurge throughout the league. John Olerud is the best New York Met to ever have his name used in my CPF tag. He just slighty edged out Frederick Owned.

KC Nov 12 2005 02:11 PM

He's the 35 best Met ever, and will likely drop when the 2005 rankings are done. http://www.kcmets.com/CPFRankingProj/RankNu04.pdf

Frayed Knot Nov 12 2005 03:05 PM

Actually, none of the active guys are close enough to Johnnie O. to catch & pass him this year, and it quite possibly won't happen after '06 either. Cracking the top 40 ain't easy and JO's 3 NYM seasons were so impressive that he remains the top ranked CPF player with 4 or fewer years at Shea.

Nymr83 Nov 13 2005 12:46 AM

Edgy DC wrote: This should be obvious, but I'd say no, Olerud is not the best Met ever, he's a good object lesson that you can leave a nice flavor if you arrive in town just as you've put your growing pains behind you, at your peak, and leave before you start do dramatically decline. And, if you're a hitter, it's good to do so during an offensive upsurge throughout the league. he is the best Met ever on a per-year basis in my mind. every other great met hitter had some BAD years here to go with the good.

KC Nov 13 2005 04:52 AM

>>>Actually, none of the active guys are close enough to Johnnie O. to catch & pass him this year<<< I knew I was typing out of my ass when I said it ... I always get caught.

abogdan Nov 13 2005 11:25 AM

Going by Baseball Prospectus' long term Pecota projections from last season, they had Manny being worth 55.5 VORP in 2005, declining steadily to 45.9 in 2006, 2007 in 36.3 and 26.3 in 2008. Manny actually had a VORP of 68.6 in 2005, so if anything you would probably want to adjust those long term projections upwards a few ticks. Cameron, was projected at 24.4 in 2005, 13.3 in 2006, 12.9 in 2007 and 8.9 in 2008. Cameron ended 2005 at 22.5, pretty much in line with his projection. Even without increasing the projections because of Manny's better than expected 2005, a move from Cameron to Manny would add 73.4 runs to the Met offense over what a replacement player would give them. Now, this does not take into account defense, which will obviously favor Cameron. But there's no way Cameron will save the Mets 70+ more runs than Manny would defensively. I'd much rather see the Mets take on Manny's contract than commit to $33 million over the next three years to a soon to be 35 year old relief pitcher.

Elster88 Nov 14 2005 07:31 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: Maybe that he's already overpaid It's not my money ]- and that he's not going to suddenly start getting better at age 34 He doesn't need to get better, just stay roughly the same or decline only slightly. ]- and that his defense - oh yes it IS that bad - will pop up even more as he goes from the smallest LF in baseball to one of the larger ones True enough. But he's not the worst outfielder ever. I've seen him make nice plays from time to time. ]- and that we don't have the luxury of the DH to hide him I don't think Boston DH'ed him either. ]- and that he considers running out hits and grounders as something to do only on an occasional basis This is of course not unique to Manny. I agree with seawolf. I like bats. Our offense needs a big bat.

HappyRecap Nov 14 2005 07:46 AM Manny stats

Whoever posted about how he is a .314 hitter hasn't seen the last few years. And to compare, Piazza is still a .311 hitter for his career but in no way do you think of him as that. Same with Manny. Someone else posted Cameron for Manny straight up if it was a salary dump situation. That would be liveable but giving up anything else is ludicrous. HappyRecap

Edgy DC Nov 14 2005 08:03 AM

Yes, Manny hasn't DH'd as much the last three years after being a DH more than half his time his first few years. Not because his fielding has improved, but because Boston has an even more frightening defensive player in David Ortiz. He's unlikely to improve at this point in his career.

Frayed Knot Nov 14 2005 08:32 AM

"It's not my money" No, but it's the team's money which is, of course, what we're talking about here. On a base level I don't care what kind if money these guys make ... except that a contract that size simply has to affect what other moves can be made - and the fact that the team that already has that contract (and is virtually printing money up there) has decided on several occasions that having the $20mil/per is better than having him. 29 other teams came to that same conclusion when he was offered on waivers 2 years back. "He doesn't need to get better, just stay roughly the same or decline only slightly." The point is to try and avoid those overblown dot-com era deals rather than pick one up just as the player reaches the age where he's likely to move from overpaid to vastly overpaid as he advances through his mid-30's. "I don't think Boston DH'ed him either." Not much recently due to Ortiz, but at least they'd have the option to do so as a way to hide his flaws over the next 3 seasons. We'd have no such out. " [not running out hits] is of course not unique to Manny." No, but he could be the worst offender in MLB "I like bats. Our offense needs a big bat." And if he comes at a big enough discount he's something to consider.

Elster88 Nov 14 2005 09:54 AM

="Frayed Knot"]"It's not my money" No, but it's the team's money which is, of course, what we're talking about here. On a base level I don't care what kind if money these guys make ... except that a contract that size simply has to affect what other moves can be made - and the fact that the team that already has that contract (and is virtually printing money up there) has decided on several occasions that having the $20mil/per is better than having him. 29 other teams came to that same conclusion when he was offered on waivers 2 years back. Yeah. Maybe with only three years left though the Mets will change their mind. If we can get him at around 15 mil. per year I think it would work. Replaces Piazza's contract and there is still enough left to do some things.

rpackrat Nov 14 2005 12:07 PM

]Whoever posted about how he is a .314 hitter hasn't seen the last few years. Yes, you've got us there. His batting average over the last 3 years is only .309, not .314.

Nymr83 Nov 14 2005 01:25 PM

his OBP and SLG both put Mets players to shame. he'd become the best hitter in the NL East the moment he arrived and probably 2nd in the entire National League (Pujols) 3rd if Bonds plays the whole year reasonably healthy.

Elster88 Nov 14 2005 01:42 PM

You know damn well that David Wright is the best hitter in baseball.

Nymr83 Nov 14 2005 08:34 PM

not yet...soon...