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Slappy beats Papi
| Willets Point Nov 14 2005 02:03 PM |
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Your 2005 American League Most Valuable Player is Alex Rodriguez.
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| rpackrat Nov 14 2005 02:08 PM |
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Much as I hate to admit it, it's almost certainly the right choice.
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| Elster88 Nov 14 2005 02:12 PM |
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Me too.
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| Centerfield Nov 14 2005 02:36 PM |
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What is amazing is that I know quite a few MFY fans that were rooting against A-Rod in the MVP race. I hear "The choker doesn't deserve it" and other garbage like that. It's astonishing how unfairly a player of his caliber is treated in this town...and it shows how badly some fans are in need of a scapegoat.
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| Willets Point Nov 14 2005 02:47 PM |
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And then the Mets can sign Clemens to a one-year contract! The Mets would rule then, although you'd have to hold your nose to cheer for them.
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| Rotblatt Nov 14 2005 03:06 PM |
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Boo.
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| Elster88 Nov 14 2005 03:09 PM |
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I thought I was the only one who felt this way.
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| Elster88 Nov 14 2005 03:10 PM |
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Why? If it's pure Yankee-hatred I can understand that. I'd be surprised if you thought Ortiz was more deserving. Fo shizzle.
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| MFS62 Nov 14 2005 03:14 PM |
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Slappy wins?
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| Rotblatt Nov 14 2005 03:18 PM |
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Nah, A-Rod clearly should have won the award. It's pure Yankee hatred. Well, tempered with a little Ortiz love. He was just fun to watch last year. A-Rod was only fun to watch during the post-season.
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| Frayed Knot Nov 14 2005 03:25 PM |
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MVP voters (2 per city) list their top 10.
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| Elster88 Nov 14 2005 03:41 PM |
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Somewhat refreshing. I'm sure I'd be sick of it if they were gloating about it. There are just so many ways to hate Yankee fans.
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| Valadius Nov 14 2005 04:09 PM |
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This is utter bullshit.
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| Elster88 Nov 14 2005 04:14 PM |
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I think ARod had good numbers down the stretch too. But only in games where they were way up or way down, right? Benitez couldn't get it done in the clutch either.
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| rpackrat Nov 14 2005 04:18 PM |
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David Ortiz, as much as I like him, was somewhat LESS valuable than Slappy as an offensive player, and he didn't even play defense. There is absolutely no way that Ortiz shoudl have won, other than pure Yankee hatred (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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| mlbaseballtalk Nov 14 2005 05:46 PM |
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I still wonder how the media/fans would have treated him if things had turned out differently back in the 2000/2001 offseason You know, it'd probably be worse than it is now as fans/media would be blaming ARod for -Lack of pitching signed for 2001, therefore no replacement for the departing Mike Hampton -Despite great overall numbers a percieved "softness" of his home power numbers due to hitting in a pitching park and of course -Shouldn't he have gotten the Mets into the postseason by NOW? Steve
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| metirish Nov 15 2005 09:34 AM |
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Not surprising that Rodriguez is getting pretty much hammered in the papers today, his conference call with reporters yesterday and his bit on M&MD was pure bullshit, IMO he came accross as if he were being persecuted just for being A-Rod......
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| Elster88 Nov 15 2005 09:41 AM |
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The hate for ARod is unbelievable. While watching MNF with a couple of buddies yesterday, one of them, who is very sports-intelligent and a Met fan, insisted he would not want ARod on his team (and we were doing this in the hypothetical where he doesn't cost $25 mil per year).
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| metirish Nov 15 2005 09:49 AM |
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That's the thing Elster, it's not just fans that call him "the cooler" but wasn't that term coined by a former Rangers teammate?
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| Elster88 Nov 15 2005 09:52 AM |
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I didn't know that. I can chalk that up to his teammate either thinking ARod is a whiny prick (understandable and possibly true?) or jealous of his money and ladies (also understandable). But there's no excuse for an intelligent fan saying he wouldn't want ARod on his team when money is out of the equation.
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| Yancy Street Gang Nov 15 2005 09:54 AM |
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Would you say the same thing about Roger Clemens? (Forget his age, let's say it's the Roger Clemens of five years ago.) His talent is undeniable, yet he'd be a hard guy to root for.
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| ScarletKnight41 Nov 15 2005 09:57 AM |
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I don't particularly like Slappy, but he's not evil in the way that Clemens is evil. Throwing at people's heads is a whole different matter.
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| Elster88 Nov 15 2005 09:58 AM |
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True...but I was talking about ARod. When ARod hits Mike Piazza in the head with a fastball and then throws a bat at him in the World Series, then there is an excuse not to want him on your team. I don't put trying to knock a ball out of a guy's glove (and then lying like a 5 year-old caught stealing a cookie) in the same ballpark with Asshead's history.
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| MFS62 Nov 15 2005 10:16 AM |
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This gets me into the definition of most valuable.
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| Elster88 Nov 15 2005 10:18 AM |
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Benitez has a similar rap. I think there is a strong argument that he's not the most valuable on his own team because of Rivera, but I'd take him to play short over wunderkind Jose Reyes (blasphemy, I know).
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| Edgy DC Nov 15 2005 10:20 AM |
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No, I think most agree.
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| Willets Point Nov 15 2005 11:10 AM |
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Get him to sign up here. We'll set him straight.
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| rpackrat Nov 15 2005 02:13 PM |
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The idea that a closer, even one as good as Rivera, meant more to his team than a superstar everyday player, is laughably silly.
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| Nymr83 Nov 15 2005 02:43 PM |
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unless you were to put rivera on some team where there are no good hitters i have to agree.
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| Edgy DC Nov 28 2005 09:40 AM |
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Yankee fan decries typical Yankee fans.
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| MFS62 Nov 28 2005 10:49 AM |
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Why is it that when folks write about good/ great players who had a bad post season, they keep forgetting Gil Hodges' o-fer in a World Series?
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| Vic Sage Nov 28 2005 11:34 AM |
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This is one of those discussions that drives me crazy. IMO, the notion that an MVP is based on the type of team he plays on is ludicrous. When Branch Rickey said to Kiner, "we finished last with you, we can finish last without you", did that provide any basis for understanding the kind of player Kiner was, relative to every other player in the NL that year? Was it Kiner's fault he played on such a bad team that his Herculean performance couldn't lift the team out of the cellar? Most winning teams have a guy that, for a multitude of reasons (including "intangibles" like charisma and leadership), would be considered "most valuable" by the players on that team. Certainly Jeter is seen that way by Yankme fans and the media, and he had a lot to do with his team making the playoffs. Of course, his contributions would've been meaningless this year without the more productive 2-way play of the 3bman playing next to him. So giving Jeter the credit is the logical fallacy of over-crediting "the last straw". If the MVP is simply that "special guy" on the best team of a given year, then the players of the division-winning teams should each nominate 1 guy, and then the players should vote for the MVP from amongst such nominees. But that was not why the MVP was created. It was created in a more literate and literary era, when a phrase like "most valuable" was merely a way to say "the best", because how could the best player NOT be the most valuable one? This is borne out by the early voting history of the award, where it was often given to players on non-championship teams. It was only later that the illiterati decided to apply a narrower construction, and it became more difficult for great players on losing teams to be given due consideration for the award. Now, there is an "Aaron Award" or something, that, theoretically, goes to the best hitter in each league. I believe it was created, in part, to repair the problem created by the MVP voters who created their own self-imposed limitations on MVP eligibility by making team success a significant criteria for the award. But this new award is of such low stature and visibility, and is equally limited in its definition (insofar as it ignores defense and "intangibles" that should otherwise go into a discussion of the BEST PLAYER AWARD), as to fail in its objective. The Aaron is equivalent to a Silver Slugger, without a positional component. The MVP is a "BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE" award... and team performance should be irrelevant to such a discussion. It's about picking the MOST VALUABLE player in baseball, not most valuable to a particular team. If you put Jeter, Papi and A-Rod up for auction (assuming economic rationality on the part of the bidders), do you really doubt that A-Rod would go for the highest price? What do you think that has to say about relative "value"?
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| Rotblatt Nov 28 2005 11:42 AM |
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I'm with you, Vic.
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| Valadius Nov 28 2005 11:57 AM |
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I agree. Team performance should have nothing to do with the MVP award. What should have to do with it, though, is whether the player is personally responsible for winning games: clutch hits, walk-off home runs, game-saving defensive plays, that kind of thing.
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| Edgy DC Nov 28 2005 12:04 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 28 2005 12:20 PM |
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Such foolish GMs --- if they exist --- would be unlikely to have a team otherwise good enough that alleged playoff choking matters.
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| Elster88 Nov 28 2005 12:17 PM |
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I think the idea of a player being a choker in the playoffs was created (and is only given any credence) on the radio, on the internet, and in Steinbrenner's office (Mr. May, indeed).
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| Vic Sage Nov 28 2005 01:04 PM |
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but that, too, is the fallacy of the last straw. "clutch" is a function of sample size, not an innate character trait, until data studies prove otherwise; walk-off HRs are worth no more than the HRs hit earlier in the game; game-saving defensive plays may occur in the first inning, and recognized only in retrospect, and are not quantifiable except in the most subjective of analyses. I agree that an MVP is more than just stats, but the further afield from quantifiable production that you go in considering other aspects of what makes someone the "best player", the greater the burden of proving such criteria are legitimate.
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| Edgy DC Nov 28 2005 01:11 PM |
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Well, I agree mostly. Walkoff homers are indeed hard to establish as worth more than homers hit earlier in that game --- but, by definition, they are more valuable than homers in gerneral because they always come in wins. Homers in general may frequently come losing efforts. That's a truth worth exploring for it's actual weight, though it likely won't bear that much weight.
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