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Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-2012)

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2011 02:55 PM

Hmmm... maybe the Mets can bring in a veteran retread to compete for the job in the spring with Nieuwenhuis. If Nieuwenhuis wins the job, the vet stays as a reserve outfielder. And if not, Nieuwenhuis goes back to Buffalo. I can see "Nieuwenhuis" being the trickiest Schaefer name since Mientkiewicz.

Ceetar Nov 02 2011 02:56 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

The Mets have mentioned Nieuwenhuis. Specifically, D3PO implied we'd probably have seen him in September had he not gotten hurt. That suggests to me that if it's May 15th and Pagan ain't cutting it..

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 02 2011 03:04 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I think they hafta let Pagan go and aim higher in CF. I think Pagan could be a fine bench player but prolly not for us anymore.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2011 03:10 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I think they let him go and aim cheaper right now and higher down the road. That could mean [crossout]Niewewnehieuees[/crossout] Newey. It's potentially not a big dropoff up front and it feeds the Reyes fund. I still have this notion of Carlos Gomez.

Frayed Knot Nov 02 2011 03:28 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Even if his bat is or soon will be ready (a question unto itself) the jury seems to be out on whether Nieuwenhuis can be a legit ML CF. Opinions seem to vary from 'Passable' to 'get him to a corner'

Farmer Ted Nov 02 2011 05:07 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

They could always trade for an infielder and convert him to a centerfielder. It worked with Juan Samuel. Right?

Ceetar Nov 02 2011 05:16 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I think they hafta let Pagan go and aim higher in CF. I think Pagan could be a fine bench player but prolly not for us anymore. unless you're swinging some huge trade, I'm not sure there is anyone within the Mets reach to aim at. The prospects may ultimately be destined for the corner, but let's not preemptively force them there by locking up CF. Pagan is actually reasonably cheap, probably provides the best defense/offense combo the Mets can reasonably hope for, and doesn't block any of the prospects. Actually, they haven't tried Murphy in CF yet..

Ashie62 Nov 02 2011 06:30 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Edgy DC wrote: I think they let him go and aim cheaper right now and higher down the road. That could mean [crossout]Niewewnehieuees[/crossout] Newey. It's potentially not a big dropoff up front and it feeds the Reyes fund. I still have this notion of Carlos Gomez. Cody Ross? type B

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 02 2011 07:25 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Geez, Ceetar the Mets can't reasonably hope for anyone better than Pagan? I'd accuse you of a lack of imagination were it not for that Murphy remark. I'll go on record here and say there are lots of possibilities. Lots and lots of them.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2011 08:58 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I think Ross is good thinking, but I think is pretty comparable to Pagan. Never as good a defender as Pagan in 2010 but not as bad as Pagan was in 2011. (And I insist he was.). But I can't see him coming in for fewer $ or years.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 02 2011 09:14 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

That the front office has lost faith in Pagan is palpable, and I'd guess something that would come into play if/when they consider otherwise comparable players.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2011 09:23 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I can see the folks that brought Castillo and Ollie Perez to camp maybe still sticking with him, lost faith and all, setting him up to have the job taken from him. But man, I'm starting to get all irrational about this Gomez notion. Somebody redirect me. Coco? McLouth?

Ceetar Nov 02 2011 09:35 PM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Edgy DC wrote: I think Ross is good thinking, but I think is pretty comparable to Pagan. Never as good a defender as Pagan in 2010 but not as bad as Pagan was in 2011. (And I insist he was.). But I can't see him coming in for fewer $ or years. Ross doesn't rate real well as a CFer either. and it's not like Pagan was bad before 2010. the defensive numbers are heavily in his favor. I wouldn't be against a guy like Ross taking AB against lefties, but you'd have to pay him more than Pagan anyway so if you're going to play him as a regular, it's probably really an upgrade, and it's definitely not if Pagan even plays average defense. Platoon wise..Hairston's practically free and hits lefties just as well. who else is better than Pagan, appreciably, that is worth spending money on? Nate McLouth? nah.. Coco Crisp? Not great, but an upgrade defensively..made about ~5 million a year and had a bad 2011.. David DeJesus could be intriguing, down 2011 and injured 2010, but actually a pretty good player. Don't know if recent history keeps his price down, but he's type B.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2011 06:21 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Ceetar wrote: Nate McLouth? nah.. Coco Crisp? Not great, but an upgrade defensively..made about ~5 million a year and had a bad 2011.. David DeJesus could be intriguing, down 2011 and injured 2010, but actually a pretty good player. Don't know if recent history keeps his price down, but he's type B. I hear you about McLooty, but I'm not thinking just about getting batter in center, but getting cheaper and maybe getting more value for less munnny and hoping to re-invest elsewhere. And I suspect that, maybe, once-good players coming off debilitating injuries are the new undervalued resources in the marketplace --- even as I understand an athletic position like center may not be the place to play that card.

Ceetar Nov 03 2011 07:00 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Edgy DC wrote: I hear you about McLooty, but I'm not thinking just about getting batter in center, but getting cheaper and maybe getting more value for less munnny and hoping to re-invest elsewhere. And I suspect that, maybe, once-good players coming off debilitating injuries are the new undervalued resources in the marketplace --- even as I understand an athletic position like center may not be the place to play that card. perhaps. Does 4 million mean we get a better bet SP? From the sounds of it Alderson has budgeted out what he wants to spend on each 'hole' but presumably an extra 4 million might help get a 'better' guy at one of the spots. If you could find a good defensive specialist type guy, or maybe someone with a high OBP that doesn't necessarily hit that much? Everytime I think about it I keep coming back to Pagan being the best all-around option.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2011 07:13 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: I hear you about McLooty, but I'm not thinking just about getting batter in center, but getting cheaper and maybe getting more value for less munnny and hoping to re-invest elsewhere. And I suspect that, maybe, once-good players coming off debilitating injuries are the new undervalued resources in the marketplace --- even as I understand an athletic position like center may not be the place to play that card. perhaps. Does 4 million mean we get a better bet SP? From the sounds of it Alderson has budgeted out what he wants to spend on each 'hole' but presumably an extra 4 million might help get a 'better' guy at one of the spots. If you could find a good defensive specialist type guy, or maybe someone with a high OBP that doesn't necessarily hit that much? Everytime I think about it I keep coming back to Pagan being the best all-around option. By those terms (def. spec.), I think about Carlos Gomez, but don't know his availability. But he'll get $3 million or so this year while Pagan will likely get $5-6. The Moneyball A's went with a chump-change-making Terrence Long.

Ceetar Nov 03 2011 07:32 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I think Pagan's getting closer to 4 in arbitration, but my guess is the Mets and him agree to something before that anyway right around that much. Gomez could be interesting, but I'd like someone with a higher career OBP than .291.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 03 2011 07:34 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Maybe. But every vibe I'm getting (not that I have an infallible vibe meter) says that the Mets have little to no interest in bringing Pagan back next year.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2011 07:38 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Part of that is that Adam Rubin writes as much every chance he gets. He could be working from overwhelming evidence, but he could be just amplifying himself as he continues. Beat writers have been so prone.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2011 07:46 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I think Pagan's getting closer to 4 in arbitration, but my guess is the Mets and him agree to something before that anyway right around that much. Gomez could be interesting, but I'd like someone with a higher career OBP than .291. So would everybody, but he has the potential to make his team's pitchers better everyday, is young enough that a new batting coach and approach might coax some offensive life from him, and can share the position until things solidify. But I think we're all thinking short-term solution until Nieuwenheis gets his shot. Or part of a shot. And Den Dekker behind him. (Only other Met with a space in his surname: Paul Lo Duca.)

smg58 Nov 03 2011 07:51 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Pagan is projected to command something like $4.7M in arbitration. He was worth far more than that in 09 and 10. He's been a better player than Grady Sizemore in each of the past three seasons. Hell, he's been a better player than Jason Bay in the past two. If you think he was dealing with nagging injuries all year, and I'm inclined to think he was, then simply dropping him would be silly. You're not likely to upgrade the position while simultaneously saving money. Thinking of him as a fourth outfielder would require having three outfielders who are better, and right now the Mets don't have any.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2011 07:54 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Well, I'm inclined to think Duda Duck is better --- wooden defense and constipated face and all --- but your point generally holds.

smg58 Nov 03 2011 07:59 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Duda certainly has the potential to be better, if his bat turns out to be legit and more consistent playing time in the OF improves his defense.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 03 2011 08:09 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

What kind of injury do you have that makes you throw the ball to the wrong base every time there's a play to be made?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 03 2011 08:11 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Maybe a fly flew up his nose and is sitting on his brain.

metirish Nov 03 2011 08:13 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

In other Pagan news his designer beard still looks sharp.

TransMonk Nov 03 2011 08:32 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I haven't heard anything out of Milwaukee suggesting that they will breakup the platoon of Morgan and Gomez in center. Having Braun and Hart in left and right allows them to play the hot hand and focus on defense and speed in center. I think the Brewers will spend some money this offseason, but I think it will be on upgrades to the infield rather than center.

smg58 Nov 03 2011 08:37 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

This conversation is eerily similar to one I had when the Mets traded Jay Payton in 2002, which ended with me saying something to the effect of: "I didn't say he doesn't have rocks in his head, I just said he was our best outfielder."

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 03 2011 08:49 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Doncha think there's something to the notion that as long as we know what Pagan is likely to prove on the upside and down, it might be better to gamble with someone else's up & down? I like good Pagan quite a bit but even if you argue he's our best OF, a player who does his job as poorly as Pagan did last year is not going to help anyone.

seawolf17 Nov 03 2011 08:51 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

I'm upset we didn't trade Pagan last year when we had the chance.

Ceetar Nov 03 2011 09:07 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Doncha think there's something to the notion that as long as we know what Pagan is likely to prove on the upside and down, it might be better to gamble with someone else's up & down? No. I'd rather the ups and downs we know. Don't buy into the grass is always greener on the other team argument. And I think Pagans upside, and the possibility of that upside, is much greater than say Sizemore's or whoever we could get.

metirish Nov 03 2011 09:09 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Jesus, even Pagan's agent wouldn't sound that optimistic.

Ceetar Nov 03 2011 09:15 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

metirish wrote: Jesus, even Pagan's agent wouldn't sound that optimistic. you mean even Sizemore's agent wouldn't sound that optimistic.

metirish Nov 03 2011 09:17 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Ceetar wrote: metirish wrote: Jesus, even Pagan's agent wouldn't sound that optimistic. you mean even Sizemore's agent wouldn't sound that optimistic. Ha

Ceetar Nov 03 2011 09:26 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

sizemore: "He had arthroscopic surgery on his right knee in early October, but he could still be ready for spring training next year. " Hey, bring him in on a minor league deal and let's see, but certainly don't pay him.

Vic Sage Nov 03 2011 10:24 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

And I think Pagans upside, and the possibility of that upside, is much greater than say Sizemore's or whoever we could get. that's just the crack talking. put the pipe down. Maybe a fly flew up his nose and is sitting on his brain. that made me laugh out loud. wait, were you talking about Pagan or Ceetar?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 03 2011 10:39 AM Re: Prospect Lists of 2011-2012

Does it matter?

Edgy MD Nov 04 2011 08:21 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Edgy DC wrote on 4/8/2011: Centerfield: Rick Ankiel replaces Nyjer Morgan (dumped at the end of camp for Cutter F. Dykstra) but is looking like a bench player at this point in his career. Off the juice, he’s spent the last two seasons bouncing between teams, hurt, and absolutely useless against lefties (hitting like a pitcher, to be honest). I imagine Hairston will help him against lefties. How much, I don’t know, but he needs it. Ankiel went to Port St. Lucie High School of all places, so look for him to catch on with the Mets a little bit during his long trip into the sunset. Andy Martino wrote on 4/4/2011: His is a name loaded with Disney drama and back-page dishonor, but Rick Ankiel could be the right outfielder for the price. Team insiders - while noting that Pagan might still return, and that they have not contacted Ankiel’s agent or decided to pursue him - have not shot down the notion, and point out that Ankiel, the free agent who earned $1.5 million last season with the Washington Nationals, might be precisely the type of short-term replacement for Pagan that the Mets are seeking. Get in line with your wild-ass speculation, Tracky!

Frayed Knot Nov 04 2011 01:20 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

MLB.com on Grady Sizemore - ... expects to be completely healthy by the start of Spring Training and is keeping his options open for 2012. Sizemore's agent, Joe Urbon, said the interest in his client's services is best described as "steady" and he has heard from a number of clubs... [adding] that there is not a timetable for a decision. - One option for Sizemore could be shifting from center field to left or right if it's the right fit. He could also seek a one-year incentive-based deal that would make him a free agent at the end of the 2012 season. Sizemore might believe his value will increase for the '13 season with improved health and full season under his belt. - He has had two knee surgeries -- one on each knee -- in the last year and a half, including microfracture surgery on his left knee last year. He also suffered a sports hernia and a right knee injury. He is recovering from an Oct. 3 arthroscopic procedure on his right knee, which had a bone bruise and was part of the reason he was off the field for most of the second half of the season. - "The microfracture is not an issue," Urbon said. "He's as structurally as sound as you can be, and nothing he has suffered is chronic. He missed parts of three years. I'm not going to dismiss health, nor should it be, but it will all be cleared up by due diligence."

Edgy MD Nov 04 2011 01:24 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

I'll take that with a mine of salt.

smg58 Nov 04 2011 01:26 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Ankiel's defense was strong last year, and he's still got as good an outfield arm as anybody, but it's tough to get excited about a .650 OPS.

Edgy MD Nov 04 2011 01:37 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Yeah, but isolate him against righties and that shoots up to .678, so...

Edgy MD Nov 07 2011 02:40 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Yoenis Cespedes? [youtube]mD_ZrcUZv94[/youtube]

Frayed Knot Nov 07 2011 03:24 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

You're a little late on that video as it was pulled earlier today, presumably by the folks who made it. What you still can catch up on is Kevin Goldstein's rather humorous write-up on it for 'Baseball Prospectus' As for whether the player is a good as this mini-film implies is still up in the air.

Edgy MD Nov 07 2011 05:52 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

You're a little late with that Goldstein link. As I included it on the guy's name.

Ceetar Nov 07 2011 06:57 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

intriguing, but given the interest by others I'm not sure the Mets are in a position to buy on hype.

MFS62 Nov 07 2011 09:21 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

A guy at work told me that Jon Heyman just reported that the Mets will tender Pagan. Not sure whether it was twitted, tweeted or (since it was Heyman) twatted. Can anyone provide a link or confirmation? Later

Ceetar Nov 07 2011 09:39 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

MFS62 wrote: A guy at work told me that Jon Heyman just reported that the Mets will tender Pagan. Not sure whether it was twitted, tweeted or (since it was Heyman) twatted. Can anyone provide a link or confirmation? Later I believe Rubin 'reported' this as well. But it's not actually..'news' to be reported. I don't think Sandy spoke or anything, it's just further speculation.

smg58 Nov 08 2011 05:16 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Ceetar wrote: intriguing, but given the interest by others I'm not sure the Mets are in a position to buy on hype. Given that Aroldis Chapman is still more hype than results, and the Blue Jays invested substantially in a Cuban shortstop who may or may not make the majors at all, I'd let somebody else do the buying.

MFS62 Nov 08 2011 07:24 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

smg58 wrote: Given that Aroldis Chapman is still more hype than results, and the Blue Jays invested substantially in a Cuban shortstop who may or may not make the majors at all, I'd let somebody else do the buying. I still remember when the Mets passed on obtaining Luis Tiant for $25,000. (He was available in that year's equivalent of the Rule V draft) There are Cuban players, and then there are Cuban players. A competent scouting organization should be able to determine which ones are worth the investment. Later

Edgy MD Nov 08 2011 08:08 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

They're all more hype than results. Sooner or later, you consult with your scouts and make big decisions.

Edgy MD Nov 08 2011 08:19 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Andy McCullough says that the Mets had a scout at the Cespedes workout. Hopefully, they didn't fire him afterwards.

Ceetar Nov 08 2011 08:36 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Edgy DC wrote: Andy McCullough says that the Mets had a scout at the Cespedes workout. Hopefully, they didn't fire him afterwards. funny, I know I heard a couple of tweets that were screaming about the Mets not having a scout there. Doesn't take much to rile people up. Sandy's been pretty good about doing his due diligence though. big fan of the informed decision.

Edgy MD Nov 08 2011 08:40 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Screamers. Waddayagonnado?

Ceetar Nov 08 2011 08:47 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Edgy DC wrote: Screamers. Waddayagonnado? Trade them to the Yankees for a CrazyTradeProposer to be named later.

MFS62 Nov 08 2011 09:40 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Screamers. Waddayagonnado? Trade them to the Yankees for a CrazyTradeProposer to be named later. That reminds me, we haven't had a 2011- 2012 Mets WATP thread yet. The "Bay for ..." thread never gained momentum. Anyone want to start one? Or rename that one? Later

Frayed Knot Nov 09 2011 06:29 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

MFS62 wrote: smg58 wrote: Given that Aroldis Chapman is still more hype than results, and the Blue Jays invested substantially in a Cuban shortstop who may or may not make the majors at all, I'd let somebody else do the buying. I still remember when the Mets passed on obtaining Luis Tiant for $25,000. (He was available in that year's equivalent of the Rule V draft) There are Cuban players, and then there are Cuban players. A competent scouting organization should be able to determine which ones are worth the investment. If all it took were "competent scouting" to determine whether a player was going to be a star at some point in the future then none of these 'can't miss' players would ever miss instead of many of them missing. Now we're dealing with a case of a rarely-if-ever seen before Cuban player where you've got little or no background data, a good possibility that you're taking his claimed age on mere faith, and where a decision needs to be made based on one or maybe two mass-attended workouts. Oh yeah, and the price now is probably in the ten$ of million$. Meanwhile ... the video is back!! The original at just over 20 minutes [youtube]kREZHmOR1bg[/youtube] and the edited version at a mere 17+ [youtube]aW9ge8l3jY8[/youtube] Apparently the thing was pulled not for secrecy reasons but because of objections to some of the rap lyrics in the background and especially to - get this - the scene near the end where a pig is being roasted.

MFS62 Nov 09 2011 07:20 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

That scene was put in the video specifically to drive away any Vegan baseball scouts. Later

batmagadanleadoff Nov 09 2011 10:27 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Cespedes might be all that. But I could edit a highlight film to make Benny Agbayani look as good as Babe Ruth. (And Benny's got the stomach part down pat).

Frayed Knot Nov 19 2011 02:42 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Indians said to be "closing in" on a new one-year deal for Grady Sizemore.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 06 2011 09:19 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

John Harper (I think) said this morning that the Mets have about $20 to $25 million that they can spend this winter on players, but that about $10 million of that will go to Angel Pagan and Mike Pelfrey. And I still have to wonder... why? Is that really the best way to spend $10 million? I think you have to consider the non-tender.

Vic Sage Dec 06 2011 09:36 AM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

consider it? I'd insist on it. or at least trade them after arb. We'd be better served going forward to see what the kids can do in those slots, because the upsides of these guys is not impressive enough to wait around to see again, for the price.

Nymr83 Dec 06 2011 12:16 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

I'm very down on Big Pelf, I'd deal him for a reliever that I thought could help or a longshot prospect that someone else has given up on but the Mets think may still pan out.

seawolf17 Dec 06 2011 01:20 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Nymr83 wrote: I'm very down on Big Pelf, I'd deal him for a reliever that I thought could help or a longshot prospect that someone else has given up on but the Mets think may still pan out. I'd trade him for a backup beer vendor.

bmfc1 Dec 06 2011 01:27 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

Nymr83 wrote: I'm very down on Big Pelf, I'd deal him for a reliever that I thought could help or a longshot prospect that someone else has given up on but the Mets think may still pan out. I don't think I've ever disliked a Met as much as I dislike Mike Pelfrey. He wears a Mets uniform so I hope he wins 30 games next year but for right now, I would be thrilled if he was no longer a Met and they got something in return for him. I know that there's a logical argument for keeping him but I don't care.

sharpie Dec 06 2011 01:56 PM Re: Following an Angel (split from Prospect Lists of 2011-20

I don't think I've ever disliked a Met as much as I dislike Mike Pelfrey. I guess you weren't around for Jim Fregosi, Vince Coleman, Roberto Alomar, Aaron Heilman. I could go on.