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Pauly No (Catching 2012)

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 29 2011 08:34 AM

Tracky this morning relates insubordination by Paulino, refusing to take a bat to pinch hit when asked to by Terry (anonymously sourced, light on specifics). Unnamed Mets Person also expresses surprise (really?) that Paulino provided less power than they'd hoped. Anyway, little secret that Paulino won't be tendered but there's division over whether to look to an acquisition (Shoppach, Rodriguez, Veritek, R Hernandez) or just go with noodle batted Mike Nickeas who's well regarded for his D. The speculation is Thole will catch 60% of the games. Thole IMO was a big disappointment last year on both sides of his game but improved with the stick in the second half, I guess that's encouraging. How do you see the catching going next year?

metirish Nov 29 2011 08:43 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I'd be surprised if they didn't bring in a vet, I like Shoppach but he made $3 million last season, doubt the Mets will bring in a guy making that to mentor.

bmfc1 Nov 29 2011 08:45 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Thole may be the nicest guy around but he doesn't do anything well. He is weak at catching a baseball which is an important part of being a catcher. His arm isn't great. He has little power. Maybe he "runs well for a catcher." If he could hit .300, then we could have the making of a Jason Kendall-like player but he hasn't shown that ability. In other words, I'm not a fan. As for next year, Sandy will say he's looking around and then decide to spend some of their limited resources elsewhere which means a Thole-Nickeas combination. I hope that they trade for a big-time catching prospect soon.

Edgy MD Nov 29 2011 08:47 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I think folks have been way too quick to cash in their chips with Thole in 2011. To me, that's more or less what first-time, full-time catchers look like, and if the rest of the lineup hadn't fallen apart, he would have flown under the radar. (He's pretty analogous to Murphy in 2009, in that regard.) He hit about average for a catcher and caught sub-average, but he's young, cheap, and learning the ropes. If they can find him a better tandem partner than Paulino, I'm cool with seeing the project through. I liked that story. I thought the specifics were enough and the story held together. I'm curious about Chris Snyder. How's his back? Has he signed with anybody yet?

sharpie Nov 29 2011 08:49 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I have no issue with giving Thole one more chance to prove he's a big league starting catcher. None of the names out there are very interesting but I would like some kind of offense out of the back-up catcher. Ramon Hernandez, we need you.

metirish Nov 29 2011 08:50 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Snyder is a Free Agent according to BR, dude made over $6 million last season http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ch02.shtml

metsmarathon Nov 29 2011 09:25 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

i'd look into having a mentor around, but not reaching for one financially. i think we can wait for one to come to us in that regard. it's way too early to give up on thole.

Edgy MD Nov 29 2011 09:28 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

metsmarathon wrote: i'd look into having a mentor around, but not reaching for one financially. i think we can wait for one to come to us in that regard. I support this, though Met fans are gonna go nuts with Alderson coyly playing markets by letting them come to him --- particularly with his own shortstop. What a time to do it.

TransMonk Nov 29 2011 09:57 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I'm alright with giving Thole another year at 60% of the starts. If Paulino wasn't sticking to Warthen's plan last year, then they need to find somebody who will. Personally, I think that if we're bringing back Pelf, he might benefit from having a vet catcher to help him stick to the plan. If we can get one thing out of 2012 rebuild, I'm hoping it is getting the young guys on the pitching staff to be more consistent. I want the vet catcher who is most capable of helping with that. I'm not expecting him to be the go to guy off the bench.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 29 2011 10:09 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2011 10:42 AM

I'm with Edgy-- most catchers don't spring fully-formed from AA, dig? And his contact rate is above MLB average. Even at this stage in his development, he's off some utility, with some room for improvement. (Exactly how much is up for debate.) Also, unless you're in some kind of Brewster's-Millions-y contest, you proudly want Shoppach over Snyder; they're practically the same guy, only the cheaper guy walks a little less and drives the ball more.

Vic Sage Nov 29 2011 10:18 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Jake fox. He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap.

TransMonk Nov 29 2011 10:25 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox. Per BB Ref: November 22, 2011: Signed as a Free Agent with the Pittsburgh Pirates.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 29 2011 10:26 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2011 10:27 AM

Intrigued by who the eff Jake Fox was after he hit like 10 HRs last ST. Pirates just nabbed him, though. Minor League deal. http://www.kget.com/sports/mlb/story/Pi ... 48K4A.cspx Edit, quick draw, TM. Quick draw.

Frayed Knot Nov 29 2011 10:26 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox. He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap. Also has a sub-.290 career OBA (in 500 ABs) with all of 32 games (and 20 starts) at catcher in his career. Sounds to me more like the guy you keep as a utility player who can also serve as your 3rd catcher in a pinch allowing you flexibility with the first two guys without fear of getting caught short if an injury occurs.

Vic Sage Nov 29 2011 10:30 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Frayed Knot wrote: Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox. He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap. Also has a sub-.290 career OBA (in 500 ABs) with all of 32 games (and 20 starts) at catcher in his career. Sounds to me more like the guy you keep as a utility player who can also serve as your 3rd catcher in a pinch allowing you flexibility with the first two guys without fear of getting caught short if an injury occurs. It's the sub-.300 OBP that makes him available cheap. His extensive minor league career shows a well-rounded hitter, and i wouldn't be surprised if he ultimately became one. But i think its a moot point now, because he apparently signed with Pittsburgh last week. DOH!

Ashie62 Nov 29 2011 11:30 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Vic Sage wrote: Jake fox. He's a Nick Evans type with a catcher's mitt. Actually, he's got a pronounced reversed platoon split, hitting RHP better in his career so far. But he's still under 30, with real power, multi-position flexibility (1b/3b/Lf/Rf/C) and will probably be cheap. Sound's like Crash Davis' cousin.

Edgy MD Nov 29 2011 11:35 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

They got all that in Vinny Rottino. Third-string catcheriness. Multi-position flexibility. Puncher's power. And he comes on a minor-league deal and without the OBP impairment.

TheOldMole Nov 29 2011 12:19 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I still think Thole can grow into the job, but if they can get a veteran backup who can hit, call a game, and throw out base runners, I really don't care what they pay him. It's not my money.

Edgy MD Nov 29 2011 12:23 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Sure, but it may be Reyes' money.

Frayed Knot Nov 29 2011 01:27 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

TheOldMole wrote: I still think Thole can grow into the job, but if they can get a veteran backup who can hit, call a game, and throw out base runners, I really don't care what they pay him. It's not my money. If you can land a veteran catcher who can hit, call a game, and throw out base-runners you better not care what they pay him because it's going to be a lot. The trick, of course, is finding one of those -- along with bmfc's "big time catching prospect" who just happens to be available for trade.

smg58 Nov 29 2011 01:59 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

bmfc1 wrote: Thole may be the nicest guy around but he doesn't do anything well. He is weak at catching a baseball which is an important part of being a catcher. His arm isn't great. He has little power. Maybe he "runs well for a catcher." If he could hit .300, then we could have the making of a Jason Kendall-like player but he hasn't shown that ability. In other words, I'm not a fan. As for next year, Sandy will say he's looking around and then decide to spend some of their limited resources elsewhere which means a Thole-Nickeas combination. I hope that they trade for a big-time catching prospect soon. Thole's defensive performance might be a bit skewed by his difficulties catching Dickey, and his OBP is very good for the position, but on the whole he just didn't look like a guy who could be starting catcher on a winning team. That being said, I'm not sure bumping him for a short-term veteran would be preferable to giving him the chance to prove me wrong. The Reds and Yankees have two catching prospects each. The Red Sox have Ryan Lavarnway, on whom opinion is much divided (30 HR power, but questionable with the glove). All those teams would be looking for major league help, though, which means we'd need to replace what we give up. As for Paulino's lost power, well, he did flunk a PED test.

Vic Sage Nov 29 2011 02:53 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Edgy DC wrote: They got all that in Vinny Rottino. Third-string catcheriness. Multi-position flexibility. Puncher's power. And he comes on a minor-league deal and without the OBP impariment. yeah, but i didn't KNOW that, so it doesn't count. on edit: i looked him up. not that it matters, but they didn't get all that with Rottino. He's older, with 39 pretty shitty major league plate appearances to his name, so no real projectability there. And Fox's minor league numbers are significantly better, to the extent that means anything.

MFS62 Nov 29 2011 09:33 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I'd go for Ramon Hernandez. Has catching experience in both major leagues, and I believe he still has some gas in the tank. As for mentoring a catcher, I recall a Joe Garagiola story about Yogi Berra. When he first was learning to catch, Yogi said (according to Joe), "Bill Dickey is learning me his experience". Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 29 2011 09:47 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I've nothing to base this on, but I have a gut feeling you'd have to pay Hernandez more to strictly back up than to start; since he made $3 million last year and is coming off a very solid part-time season, that might make him a bit of a luxury.

MFS62 Nov 29 2011 09:57 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I've nothing to base this on, but I have a gut feeling you'd have to pay Hernandez more to strictly back up than to start; since he made $3 million last year and is coming off a very solid part-time season, that might make him a bit of a luxury. I'm not sure. He's a 38 year old catcher. I think he might be at the point where he's looking to extend his career in a part time role rather than burning it out as a starter. And when he does start, he still can hit and catch. Worth exploring anyhow. Later

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2011 08:06 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 01 2011 06:43 AM

Catcher Chris Iannetta from the Rox to the Angels in exchange for pitcher Tyler Chatwood Jerry DiPoto making his mark.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2011 09:28 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

That Napoli trade worked out so well for them, they gave up Tyler Chatwood to fill the hole it made. (And another $64M to JasonBayWest!)

sharpie Dec 01 2011 07:09 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Then recently-coveted Ramon Hernandez signs with the Rox to take over for Iannetta.

bmfc1 Dec 01 2011 09:15 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Good stuff from Mets Merized: http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/th ... +Online%29

attgig Dec 01 2011 09:18 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

so glad we said no to posada. i do agree though, Ramon Hernandez would've been a good one.

smg58 Dec 01 2011 10:26 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I can't help wondering if the Angels would have taken Bay over Wells for Rivera and Napoli. Wells had the better 2010, but his contract makes Bay look like a bargain. On a somewhat related note, I'm hoping that the Mets apparent interest in a defensive-minded catcher will not lead to 80 games of Jeff Mathis behind the plate.

metirish Dec 01 2011 10:34 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Vernon Wells , he should kiss his agent nightly 2012 33 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim $21,000,000 Player may opt out after 2011 season 2013 34 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim $21,000,000 Player may opt out after 2011 season 2014 35 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim $21,000,000 Player may opt out after 2011 season I'm guessing he won't be opting out.

TransMonk Dec 01 2011 10:47 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Varitek? .264 vs. lefties last year. I don't watch the junior circuit enough to know anything about his defense.

Frayed Knot Dec 01 2011 11:04 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

TransMonk wrote: Varitek? .264 vs. lefties last year. I don't watch the junior circuit enough to know anything about his defense. Beyond awful. He's essentially D-O-N-E

TransMonk Dec 01 2011 12:24 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Enough said.

smg58 Dec 01 2011 12:30 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

metirish wrote: I'm guessing he won't be opting out. He didn't. metirish wrote: Vernon Wells , he should kiss his agent nightly. As for what kind of relationship he has with his agent, one can only speculate.

attgig Dec 01 2011 01:07 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Taylor Teagarden, a righty catcher who was 3rd on the depth charts in texas, has been traded to the O's to backup Matt Weiters for a pitcher who hasn't hit AA yet. He had decent minor league numbers. though, his major league numbers haven't quite lived up to expectations. He may or may not have been an upgrade over Nickeas.

Vic Sage Dec 01 2011 01:55 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Vernon Wells , he should kiss his agent nightly i'd kiss his agent if she was Keira Knightley.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 01 2011 06:25 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

attgig wrote: Taylor Teagarden, a righty catcher who was 3rd on the depth charts in texas, has been traded to the O's to backup Matt Weiters for a pitcher who hasn't hit AA yet. He had decent minor league numbers. though, his major league numbers haven't quite lived up to expectations. He may or may not have been an upgrade over Nickeas. The defense is supposedly great, but there was no role for him on the major-league team, and he's out of options. His minor league numbers were worrying before last year (when he was a 27-year-old third-timer in AAA), when he went .285/.376/.589 over 173 PAs. But overall, he does certainly seem Nickeas-class.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2011 09:01 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

That Mets Merized post about Posada misses the point. He argues that Posada is a better defender than all the Mets current catching options, and that it's folly for the Mets to turn him away because they are shopping for a better defensive catcher. I would dispute that he would be the best defensive option if he joined the Mets tomorrow, but accepting that argument for argument's sake, the point is that the Mets aren't comparing him to their current options on hand. Rather they are acknowledging the defensive limitations of the house options and are therefore looking for better defenders than they are... and better than than Posada is. If you want to show the Mets' folly don't try to establish the shortcomings of Thole and Paulino. The fans and the management know this (even if they aren't necessarily with you on distant third option Nickeas). You should be comparing Posada to other catchers on the catching market. That's who they rejected Posada in favor of. Moreover, they're clearly looking for value, value, value --- somebody you're buying low for the hint of seasons to come, rather than buying high for the shadow of seasons past. Posada ain't that guy. OE: Moreover, both Posada's agent and the Mets deny that there was ever contact. (Not that they don't have an interest in denying it, true or not).

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 13 2011 08:49 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Shoppach signs with the Red Sox. Are we really OK with Nickeas as No. 2?

TransMonk Dec 13 2011 08:52 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Unless you have a couple million dollars to invest, I'm not sure we have a choice.

Vic Sage Dec 13 2011 08:55 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

sure we do -- Koyie Hill, a switch-hitter who hits as badly as Nickeas, but from both sides!

Benjamin Grimm Dec 13 2011 08:56 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Are we really OK with Nickeas as No. 2? Not really. I hope there's some other plan.

Vic Sage Dec 13 2011 09:01 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

chapter 11

Ceetar Dec 13 2011 09:16 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Benjamin Grimm wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Are we really OK with Nickeas as No. 2? Not really. I hope there's some other plan. Lucas May, Kai Gronauer? Or you know, Thole. Perhaps it's a sink or swim type deal for him. He plays 140+ and sees if he can truly, really, be an everyday catcher. (probably would be my guess, even if he's not going to be great) If you're set on not platooning, wouldn't the preference in a backup be a defensive whiz, not a lefty-masher? (Not that Paulino is necessarily that either, .752 against lefties last year. He just wasn't good)

duan Dec 13 2011 10:53 AM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

I don't get being so down on Thole, a .700 ish ops isn't that bad at catcher - especially when it's weighted equally obp/slg and not a barajas esque 250/450 and when he's only 24. Defense wise I don't get to see enough to have a conviction but BP's metrics have him down as being ok. Sure, a lefty masher (how is Ramon Castro these days) would be a nice caddy, but I don't think that's our biggest problem.

Edgy MD Dec 13 2011 12:37 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Defense, lefty mashing, know-the-league-type veteranness. All of these things would be nice to have in a backup. Maybe Nickeas supplies the first and Rottino the second, so maybe I lean a little toward the third, but it'd certainly be nice to find hints of all three in one body.

Rockin' Doc Dec 13 2011 07:57 PM Re: Pauly No (Catching 2012)

Vic Sage wrote: chapter 11 This would have really cracked me up, if it hadn't hit so close to the truth.