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2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2011 03:14 PM

Jeff Bagwell Jeromy Burnitz Vinny Castilla Juan Gonzalez Brian Jordan Barry Larkin Javy Lopez Edgar Martinez Don Mattingly Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Jack Morris Bill Mueller Terry Mulholland Dale Murphy Phil Nevin Rafael Palmeiro Brad Radke Tim Raines Tim Salmon Ruben Sierra Lee Smith Alan Trammell Larry Walker Bernie Williams Tony Womack Eric Young With the underwhelming crop of noobs (in bold), the scuttlebutt among the sportsscribblers is that it's a light ballot this year (well, yeah, it is-- no f*cking Fonzie). So it's likely now or never for Mr. Back-Pocket Coke Vial, Larkin, and the gang, with next year's tidal wave approaching. My ballot: Bagwell, Larkin, Martinez, McGwire, Raines, Trammell. My prediction: I'm thinking it's Larkin, with a 50-percent chance of Raines and/or Morris, with an outside shot at Bagwell.

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2011 03:31 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Raines

Vic Sage Nov 30 2011 03:40 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2011 09:29 PM

YES: Bagwell, Larkin, Martinez, Raines YES, EXCEPT...: McGwire, Palmiero BORDERLINE: Trammell, Morris, Murphy, Walker CLOSE BUT NO CIGAR: Smith, Mattingly, McGriff, J-Gonz FIVE PERCENTERS:Javy Lopez, Tim Salmon, Bernie Williams ONE AND DONE: Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Brian Jordan, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Phil Nevin, Brad Radke, Ruben Sierra, Tony Womack, Eric Young how much ya wanna bet we start getting MFY fan rationales for Bernie Williams?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2011 03:41 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Morris borderline? Really? Fess up, Sage-- you're a whore for the mnustache, ain'tcha?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 30 2011 03:48 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I'm afraid to look up Williams because he'll probably turn out to be one of those guys who's closer than I'd be comfortable with a career MFY coming to HOFness, which means he's probably a first-balloter mocking Raines on the way in.

sharpie Nov 30 2011 03:51 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

MFY love for Mattingly or even Paul O'Neill was greater than for Bernie and neither of those guys are in. Bagwell Raines Larkin Trammell

Vic Sage Nov 30 2011 03:53 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Morris borderline? Really? yeah, really. i think he pitched well for a long time, but was rarely great. His ERA for his era was absolutely nothing special. He walked alot of guys and didn't have a great K/BB ratio. He was an accumulator more than a dominator and yet didn't hit any of the key milestones. But he's been on the ballot for over a decade and his vote count has increased from the 20% range to the 50% range, which is another indicator that "borderline" is the exactly appropriate label for his candidacy. In fact, i'd say it's generous and optimistic but possible. Voters are still suckers for "big wins".

G-Fafif Nov 30 2011 03:59 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: no f*cking Fonzie My very first thought. Well, at least he won't be stiffed come January.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2011 05:56 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2011 06:05 PM

G-Fafif wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: no f*cking Fonzie My very first thought. Well, at least he won't be stiffed come January. My thing is... Phil Nevin over Fonzie? Eric Young? Hell, poor-man's-Eric-Young TONY WOMACK over Fonzie?

seawolf17 Nov 30 2011 06:00 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I saw somewhere where Fonzie was on the ballot...? Voting for six: Bagwell, Larkin, Morris, Murphy, Raines, Trammell.

Ashie62 Nov 30 2011 06:08 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin, McGwire, Morris, Bagwell.

Fman99 Nov 30 2011 06:15 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Bagwell Martinez McGwire Palmeiro Raines

Ashie62 Nov 30 2011 07:10 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Fman99 wrote: Bagwell Martinez McGwire Palmeiro Raines You certainly pumped up your list.

Fman99 Nov 30 2011 07:12 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Yeah I did. So these guys doped up in the 1990s. Guys in the 1950s got their edge from amphetamines. And Ty Cobb was totally fueled by Negro-hate juice. They were all ballers though.

seawolf17 Nov 30 2011 07:23 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

seawolf17 wrote: I saw somewhere where Fonzie was on the ballot...? Voting for six: Bagwell, Larkin, Morris, Murphy, Raines, Trammell. Seven. Add McGwire back in.

bmfc1 Nov 30 2011 07:26 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin, Morris, Murphy, Raines, Trammell.

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2011 07:33 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Vic Sage wrote: Morris borderline? Really? yeah, really. i think he pitched well for a long time, but was rarely great. His ERA for his era was absolutely nothing special. He walked alot of guys and didn't have a great K/BB ratio. He was an accumulator more than a dominator and yet didn't hit any of the key milestones. But he's been on the ballot for over a decade and his vote count has increased from the 20% range to the 50% range, which is another indicator that "borderline" is the exactly appropriate label for his candidacy. In fact, i'd say it's generous and optimistic but possible. Voters are still suckers for "big wins". You know that all his peripheral (ie. non-W/L) numbers would have been better except that he pitched to the score all the time, don't you?

Gwreck Nov 30 2011 08:10 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin Trammell Raines McGwire Palmeiro Martinez

Edgy MD Nov 30 2011 08:19 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Jeff Bagwell Barry Larkin Edgar Martinez Tim Raines Alan Trammell Got nothing against Murphy getting in. Kinda lingered a while over Javier Lopez too.

Valadius Nov 30 2011 08:27 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Bagwell Gonzalez Larkin Martinez McGwire Morris Palmeiro Raines Trammell Walker

MFS62 Nov 30 2011 09:31 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larry Walker (similarity scores include 4 hall of famers - Klein, Mize, Dimaggio and Snider - good enough for me) Lee Smith - yes the rules for saves may have been more lax. But he pitched more than one inning to earn many of his saves, and that extra effort earns him extra consideration in my book. Allan Trammell - should have been voted in long ago. Jeff Bagwell - no scandal? no failed drug tests? no brainer. And his highest similarity score is Carlos Delgado (along with Stargell and Cepeda). Bagwell's entry would make it easier for Carlos to get in. Tim Raines - just a smidgen over the borderline, on the good side. Not this year - Larkin. I know, I know, if he deserves to be in the Hall, then he should be in the Hall. But I'd let Larkin stew in his own juices until the injustice to Trammell has been rectified. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2011 09:36 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2011 09:52 PM

1) Trammell's great, and deserves in. But you're punishing Larkin for being, what? Later, or better? He was both. 2) Okay, so Vic's predicting it, more than he is endorsing it. But the rest of youse guys? Morris? Are you sure you're not mistaking him for Dave Stieb? 'Cause he's not that guy. That guy was better. Morris is the guy who put up a 3.90 ERA during a pitchers' era, led the league in earned runs given up and walks but never in ERA or pitcher WAR, finished top-ten in HR allowed more often than he did in ERA, and is 50th in career IP but only 141st in career WAR.

metsmarathon Nov 30 2011 09:37 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

bagwell *palmeiro larkin walker martinez trammell raines *mcgwire

MFS62 Nov 30 2011 09:46 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: 1) Trammell's great, and deserves in. But you're punishing Larkin for being, what? Later, or better? He was both. Yes he was, But I'm not voting for him until Alan gets in. As Dennis Miller used to say, "That's just my opinion and, I may be wrong" I'm also never going to vote for a player who was primarily a DH, as Edgar Martinez was. Maybe if the lords of baseball see that some of the best of those guys never garner many HOF votes, they'll do away with that silly rule. Probably won't happen, but its one of my baseball dreams. Later

metsmarathon Nov 30 2011 09:55 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

i don't see how you can vote for lee smith but not edgar martinez.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2011 04:38 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Yeah, I'd have to look closer, but I don't remember Smith as the paragon of the multi-inning save that you do. At least, not for the lion's share of his career.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 01 2011 05:59 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

What should be done if, say, Bagwell gets in on this ballot, and then it later becomes known that he was a steroid user? Just askin'. I'd vote for him if I had a vote. And Raines, Larkin, Trammell and Martinez the DH.

HahnSolo Dec 01 2011 06:35 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

batmagadanleadoff wrote: What should be done if, say, Bagwell gets in on this ballot, and then it later becomes known that he was a steroid user? Just askin'. I'd vote for him if I had a vote. And Raines, Larkin, Trammell and Martinez the DH. I don't know what would be done (probably nothing). I bet that's what a lot of voters are thinking, so I would be unsurprised if Bagwell didn't get in at least this year. And I'm with you 100% on who you'd put in.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2011 04:47 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I guess it would become harder to justify withholding votes from those known steroid abusers on the outside.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 01 2011 06:28 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

MFS62 wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: 1) Trammell's great, and deserves in. But you're punishing Larkin for being, what? Later, or better? He was both. Yes he was, But I'm not voting for him until Alan gets in. As Dennis Miller used to say, "That's just my opinion and, I may be wrong" By that logic, you should withhold your vote for Smith until the Vet Committee puts in Quisenberry (who WAS the dominant, multi-inning guy you're thinking of).

SteveJRogers Dec 02 2011 01:40 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: no f*cking Fonzie My very first thought. Well, at least he won't be stiffed come January. My thing is... Phil Nevin over Fonzie? Eric Young? Hell, poor-man's-Eric-Young TONY WOMACK over Fonzie? My own speculation, and this is based on the idea of Warren Spahn apparently getting the same treatment, is that he did spend time in the Independent Leagues and Japan from 2007 through 2010, and that could be the reason for not placing him on the ballot until 2015.

Nymr83 Dec 02 2011 03:57 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Holy Shit!! The forum loads on my blackberry???? Hope you've missed me because now that I figured that out I may be posting again (I'm never home anymore) My Ballot: Bagwell, Raines, Larkin, Trammell NO to Morris, for the reasons Vic elegantly stated. NO to Smith, I'm not ready to put a closer in. NO to Martinez, I haven't gotten over the DH thing, but I do want to keep him on the ballot to have more time to think about him. MAYBE to Walker, I want to look more closely at Walker's Road numbers when I can. The steroid era happened, but I don't know how we seperate who did what and how to deal with those we know did it. I'll pass on the "guilty" (mcgwire, palmiero) for now and ignore accusations against guys where nothing has been shown.

TransMonk Dec 02 2011 04:05 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Nice to see you, Nymr. I agree with his selections.

TheOldMole Dec 02 2011 04:31 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Bagwell, Larkin, Trammel.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 06:43 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Nice to have you back, NYMR.

Mets – Willets Point Dec 02 2011 07:25 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

If I had a vote, I would vote for these fellers: Jeff Bagwell Barry Larkin Mark McGwire Dale Murphy Tim Raines Lee Smith Alan Trammell I'm a pretty liberal HOF voter.

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 06:53 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year. I generally buy into Morris not quite being a Hall of Famer, but I recently watched MLBN's 20 Greatest Games presentation on Game Seven from the 1991 World Series (their choice for No. 2, ahead of Game Six, 1986 WS; behind Game Six, 1975 WS), and listening to Morris (with John Smoltz) reconstruct that night and talk about baseball in general made me want to hear him give an induction speech.

SteveJRogers Dec 03 2011 09:01 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

G-Fafif wrote: Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year. Which is why I'm thinking we'll see that in 2015, because he played professionally in 2010.

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 09:03 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

SteveJRogers wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year. Which is why I'm thinking we'll see that in 2015, because he played professionally in 2010. This will not happen.

SteveJRogers Dec 03 2011 09:07 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

G-Fafif wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year. Which is why I'm thinking we'll see that in 2015, because he played professionally in 2010. This will not happen. It took Warren Spahn more than 5 years after his last MLB game to appear on the BBWAA ballot because he played two more seasons in Mexico and in the St. Louis chain.

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 09:47 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Per the HOF: C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball. Rickey Henderson played in the Atlantic League (Newark Bears) in 2004 and in the independent Golden Baseball League (San Diego Surf Dawgs) in 2005. He was on the 2009 ballot anyway, reflective of his final MLB game having been in 2003. Rules have changed since Spahn's time.

SteveJRogers Dec 03 2011 10:43 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Ah. I stand corrected, and bumed out. Yeah, if Tony Womack is on the ballot, why isn't Alfonzo?

dgwphotography Dec 03 2011 11:12 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Bagwell Raines Larkin Trammell Martinez? Half a player - nope. McGwire & Palmiero? they can buy a ticket like everybody else...

dgwphotography Dec 03 2011 11:14 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I know this is heresy in some parts around here, but I never got the love for Fonzie - he had a few good years, was about 5 years older then reported, and then got fat...

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 11:27 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Because: [list:1boggrah][*:1boggrah]His "good" years were in fact easily the best years of any secondbaseman in Mets history. (And he has a significant legacy at third, too.)[/*:m:1boggrah] [*:1boggrah]The only evidence of him being older was him being foreign and fading in his early thirties. (Nor would that negate his legacy.)[/*:m:1boggrah] [*:1boggrah]He wasn't the only athlete in history to carry extra weight. It happens. Nor did his weight only appear later in his career.[/*:m:1boggrah][/list:u:1boggrah] If you think that's the sum total of the Alfonzo story, you're not being fair. Why the love for any of them?

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 11:31 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Career WAR, as per BB-R.com: Tony Womack: 1.2 Eric Young: 17.0 Edgardo Alfonzo: 28.4

Nymr83 Dec 03 2011 12:43 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I don't think anyone is going to make an argument for Alfonzo in the HOF, but I am not sure why he isn't on the ballot. I remember MVP chants for him one August/September ('98?), I doubt that can be said for Womack or Young, he KILLS those guys on "peak" value. Is there a criteria anywhere for the ballot? Who actually makes the decision as to which players appear on it?

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 01:17 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

There is. They take anybody who plays ten years or more in the bigs, and then eliminate only those who spent the vast majority as reserves, or possibly bullpen backenders. But those are few, and probably over 90% of those who clear the 10-year criterion make the ballot.

dgwphotography Dec 03 2011 01:38 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Edgy DC wrote: Because: [list][*]His "good" years were in fact easily the best years of any secondbaseman in Mets history. (And he has a significant legacy at third, too.)[/*:m] [*]The only evidence of him being older was him being foreign and fading in his early thirties. (Nor would that negate his legacy.)[/*:m] [*]He wasn't the only athlete in history to carry extra weight. It happens. Nor did his weight only appear later in his career.[/*:m][/list:u] If you think that's the sum total of the Alfonzo story, you're not being fair. Why the love for any of them? Saying that his good years were easily the best years of any second baseman in Mets history isn't really saying much considering we never really had any one approaching Rogers Hornsby there. I think that's the issue - he looks so much better than anyone else there, because we really never had anyone that great there. Actually, he started going down hill when he was "27". He had 2, maybe 3 "good" years out of 8 in NY.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2011 02:07 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

He had 2, maybe 3 "good" years out of 8 in NY. More like a complete reversal of that ratio. In eight seasons as a Met: - the first six of which he hit a combined .296/.370/.450. That's starting right out of the box (or out of AA if you prefer) as a 21 y/o. And maybe he wasn't 21 at the time although that's hardly been established. - eliminate those rookie & soph seasons and years 3 thru 6 jump to .305/.389/.477 - go to the peak two seasons (#s 5 & 6) and you get: .313/.404/.520 w/69 & 67 XBHs in those two campaigns while walks were exceeding Ks - only the final two were sub-par, falling a long way to .277/.358/.432 And he played GG-caliber defense at two different positions, neither one of which were the one he played for much of the minors. At worst I'd say 2 great, 4 good, 2 lousy - and even those lousy ones were only so in comparison to what he already established and were really more like average-ish. Put it this way, for a several years span in the late '90s when Jeter was at his peak and when his favorite "Bernie Baseball" was roaming CF in the Bronx, Francesa routinely called Fonzie the best player in NYC The only problem with him was how suddenly and dramatically it ended.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 03 2011 02:10 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

And anyway... the issue is that he looks better than any of the 3 second basemen-- or corner IF, save Bagwell and McGriff-- on the HOF ballot.

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 02:45 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

dgwphotography wrote: Saying that his good years were easily the best years of any second baseman in Mets history isn't really saying much.. Yes it is saying much. The team is 50 years old. And it it's my team, it makes sense to make judgments about "the love" in that context. dgwphotography wrote: ....considering we never really had any one approaching Rogers Hornsby there. Is that to be our standard for appreciating players? Rogers Hornsby had 127.8 win shares in his career. Darryl Strawberry (I think) leads all Mets offensive players with 37.7. I think we can all agree that Edgardo Alfonzo does not tower over history as a Lord of Baseball. But come on. dgwphotography wrote: I think that's the issue - he looks so much better than anyone else there, because we really never had anyone that great there. Or anywhere, apparently. Why love at all? dgwphotography wrote: Actually, he started going down hill when he was "27". He had 2, maybe 3 "good" years out of 8 in NY. What's with the crazy quotes?

Nymr83 Dec 03 2011 02:51 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

When did Alfonzo's age become a question? Just because he got fat and stopped playing well pretty quickly?

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 04:32 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I never got the love for Fonzie Re: "the love" -- Fonzie being the best 2B the Mets ever had (and one of the better 3B they ever had pre-Ventura and -Wright ) coincided with the Mets' ascension from mediocrities to contenders. I don't think it was a coincidence that once Alfonzo became an everyday player, the Mets improved steadily. Throw in that he was a dream in that "does all the little things" way, shuttled between positions as asked and went out in style (buying up ad space atop the caps to thank his fans after signing with San Fran once Phillips didn't bother trying to keep him) -- plus he was thoughtful enough to not come back to haunt us by being better after he left than he was when he was here -- and you have a Met whose halo is pretty sturdy. My particular treasured memory: In June 1997, the Mets were playing the Pirates on Fox, having just recently proven themselves a capable ballclub (over .500, in the Wild Card hunt, days after Mlicki beat the MFYs) and McCarver, still part of the family, was telling Joe Buck that we may be looking at the best all-around third baseman in the National League right now. Buck was snottily dismissive until Fonzie hit the go-ahead homer in the bottom of the eighth, at which point he was all "ah, I see what you mean" to Tim. Aside from the home run and winning that game, just that sense of a Met sneaking up on people and showing we had somebody underrated for a change...stuff like that, that's where the love comes from. Then again, Fonzie's not alone in Left Off The Ballot company from that Met era. On the 2009 ballot (the one that included Rickey Henderson) there was no mention of first-time eligibles Todd Hundley or Rick Reed, each a two-time Met All-Star, the former a franchise power-hitting record-holder, the other a mainstay on two postseason clubs who pitched well in each postseason. Mike Bordick left off the same ballot, but screw him.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2011 05:08 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

In June 1997, the Mets were playing the Pirates on Fox, having just recently proven themselves a capable ballclub (over .500, in the Wild Card hunt, days after Mlicki beat the MFYs) and McCarver, still part of the family, was telling Joe Buck that we may be looking at the best all-around third baseman in the National League right now. Coincidentally, that was the last time the Pirates were on FOX.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 03 2011 06:13 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Fonzie was cool. Potsie was a nerd. Ayyyy

Nymr83 Dec 03 2011 06:32 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Hundley never saw the ballot either? There's some MET HATE going on!

batmagadanleadoff Dec 03 2011 07:18 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

MLB needs a voting ballot to determine who gets on the HOF ballot.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 03 2011 07:27 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

G-Fafif wrote: On the 2009 ballot (the one that included Rickey Henderson) there was no mention of ... Rick Reed ... a two-time Met All-Star ... a mainstay on two postseason clubs who pitched well in each postseason. I'm certain that Reed's inclusion on the 2009 ballot would have prompted some of the most ignorant and mean-spirited comments about Reed and his HOF eligibility.

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 08:10 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Other Mets who I think didn't get a spot on the ballot: [list:1ne0zja2][*:1ne0zja2]Rey Ordóñez (nine seasons, three GGs, fifth in RoY)[/*:m:1ne0zja2] [*:1ne0zja2]Bernard Gilkey (12 seasons, 14th place finish in MVP in 1996)[/*:m:1ne0zja2] [*:1ne0zja2]Lance Johnson (14 seasons, one ASG, 18th place finishin MVP in 1996)[/*:m:1ne0zja2] [*:1ne0zja2]Darryl Hamilton (13 seasons, three-time leader in fielding percentage among centerfielders)[/*:m:1ne0zja2][/list:u:1ne0zja2] Things have just gone to blazes.

G-Fafif Dec 04 2011 12:12 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Rey O needed one more year to qualify for consideration, so we have to let that one go, but the rest is clearly the same insidious anti-Mets bias that failed to acknowledge Ron Hodges's dozen seasons of yeoman backuppery. And what is it the Hall of Fame has against Hodgeses anyway?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 04 2011 08:14 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Other first time HOF eligible Mets who, like Ron Hodges, were excluded from the 1990 ballot: Pete Falcone Mike Vail Craig Swan Jerry Martin First time HOF eligible Mets who did appear on the 1990 ballot: Tug McGraw - 6 votes, 1.4% of the vote; one and done John Stearns - no votes Ken Singleton - no votes Amos Otis - no votes Mike Torrez - one vote; one and done

Edgy MD Dec 04 2011 12:51 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Joe F. Sambito, 11 seasons, hammered down a 3.03 ERA, All Star appearance, drank from the MVP cup in 1979, fifth in Cy Young voting in 1980, appeared in four different post-season series, but, you guessed it, no ballot appearances.

Nymr83 Dec 04 2011 09:29 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

And none of these guys even deserve discussion for the hall, but the point still remains that many are much better than Tony Womack... Do guys like Womack just have a friend who can get their name on the ballot for fun? who knows!

metsmarathon Dec 04 2011 09:50 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

did womack get on the ballot for leading the league in stolen bases? does black ink get you on automatically?

metirish Dec 05 2011 09:07 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

KeithOlbermann Veterans Committee elects Ron Santo!

seawolf17 Dec 05 2011 09:12 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

metirish wrote: KeithOlbermann Veterans Committee elects Ron Santo! They named the Veterans Committee after Keith Olbermann?!?!

metirish Dec 05 2011 09:13 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

KeithOlbermann 12 votes needed: Santo 15, Kaat 10, Hodges 9, Minoso 9, Oliva 8, others less than 3 each #Hall of Fame

metsmarathon Dec 05 2011 09:19 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

well, at least they got santo right.

Edgy MD Dec 05 2011 09:26 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Kaat's kind of astonishing, no? I figured this was a three-man race among Hodges, Oliva, and Santo, with Minoso expected to be a respectable fourth. I'm disappointed in Hodges counted out, but I can accept an argument that places him behind Santo and Oliva. But Kaat?

seawolf17 Dec 05 2011 09:26 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Edgy DC wrote: Kaat's kind of astonishing, no? I figured this was a three-man race among Hodges, Oliva, and Santo, with Minoso expected to be a respectable fourth. I'm disappointed in Hodges counted out, but I can accept an argument that places him behind Santo and Oliva. But Kaat? Kaat even came out himself and said he wasn't a HoFer; referred to himself as a number-three starter.

metsmarathon Dec 05 2011 09:36 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

except in 1969, his first year on the ballot, no player who drew more HOF votes than gil hodges failed to eventually make the hall.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2011 10:24 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

seawolf17 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Kaat's kind of astonishing, no? I figured this was a three-man race among Hodges, Oliva, and Santo, with Minoso expected to be a respectable fourth. I'm disappointed in Hodges counted out, but I can accept an argument that places him behind Santo and Oliva. But Kaat? Kaat even came out himself and said he wasn't a HoFer; referred to himself as a number-three starter. Kaat has a ton of MFY friends in the right low places (Kay for example). Especially using the "same or lesser" arguments with guys like Sutton, Niekro, Blyleven, etc

metsmarathon Dec 05 2011 10:48 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

SteveJRogers wrote: seawolf17 wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Kaat's kind of astonishing, no? I figured this was a three-man race among Hodges, Oliva, and Santo, with Minoso expected to be a respectable fourth. I'm disappointed in Hodges counted out, but I can accept an argument that places him behind Santo and Oliva. But Kaat? Kaat even came out himself and said he wasn't a HoFer; referred to himself as a number-three starter. Kaat has a ton of MFY friends in the right low places (Kay for example). Especially using the "same or lesser" arguments with guys like Sutton, Niekro, Blyleven, etc don sutton 70.8 career WAR, 17.1 3 yr peak phil niekro 96.8 career WAR, 24.3 3 yr peak blyleven 90.1 career WAR, 22.2 3 yr peak jim kaat 41.2 career WAR, 16.3 3 yr peak think about that. 40% of his value over his 25 year career came in that 3 year stretch. h

seawolf17 Dec 05 2011 10:55 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

SteveJRogers wrote: Kaat has a ton of MFY friends in the right low places (Kay for example). Especially using the "same or lesser" arguments with guys like Sutton, Niekro, Blyleven, etc Michael Kay is on the veterans' committee?!?!?!

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2011 11:02 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

seawolf17 wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: Kaat has a ton of MFY friends in the right low places (Kay for example). Especially using the "same or lesser" arguments with guys like Sutton, Niekro, Blyleven, etc Michael Kay is on the veterans' committee?!?!?! No, but get enough people like Kay, Madden, etc in the media hammering the points, that starts planting seeds of "hey, maybe this guy is worth more looks"

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 03 2012 01:04 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Tracking early returns at Baseball Think Factory. Nice trending for Larkin, Raines, and Trammell, even... not so for Walker and Martinez and Williams.

Valadius Jan 03 2012 10:04 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Tracking early returns at Baseball Think Factory. Nice trending for Larkin, Raines, and Trammell, even... not so for Walker and Martinez and Williams. Every single year I forget about this and then follow it obsessively once it's brought to my attention. On another note, I'm so used to seeing Dave Parker on the ballot alongside Dale Murphy, but last year was his 15th on the ballot.

Edgy MD Jan 05 2012 12:49 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

You know, seeing Jack Morris at 63%, I challenge the voters who like his win-loss record (because the statistical argument for him begins and ends there) to ask themselves if maybe he didn't win so many games largely because he was backed through so much of his career by such a wonderful offense/defense combo a second and short, and maybe those guys are the ones you should really be looking at.

seawolf17 Jan 05 2012 01:34 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

The more I look at Morris, the more meh I am. I've always been so confident he's a yes, but maybe not.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2012 04:53 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Jack Morris' career ERA: 3.90 League-average ERA during that time: 3.91 He's a durable guy who pitched pretty well for some very good teams, and had some of his biggest moments on a big stage; IOW, he's a scowling, mustached Suppan with slightly better counting stats.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2012 07:01 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I don't think Morris is even close to being HOF-worthy, I'm amazed he's managed to stay on the ballot this long (well, not too amazed, the writers are pretty ignorant), and I hope he finally gets booted off over the next few years when Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Smoltz, Schilling, and Clemens show up (all clearly better than him.). I don't know when they retired but I'd take Mike Mussina and Kevin Brown over him as well. Maybe even Al Leiter (better peak)

Edgy MD Jan 06 2012 07:29 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

The thing he has going for him is "Most Wins in the 80s" on his calling card. It plays into the hands of those who value wins by pitchers as a trump card over general effectiveness by pitchers, and fall into the very human tendency of viewing history in 10-year blocks. I'm sure Kevin Brown's case would be much stronger if somebody ranked the top winners from 1992-2001, or Ron Guidry's if you framed it 1977-1986. But that's just as artificial a construct.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 08:43 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin smashing the field. Juan Gonzalez looking at taking his two MVPs, 434 homers, and 1404 RBIs and going home. http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/fil ... izmo/P100/

metirish Jan 09 2012 09:01 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Dumb question but........if Larkin wasn't a HOF player last year why is he this year?, providing he gets in of course. In 2010, his first year of eligibility for the Hall of Fame, Larkin was not elected, garnering 51.6 percent of the vote[7] (75 percent is needed for election). In 2011, he received 62.1 percent of the vote,[8] the highest of non-inducted players and third overall. He is considered the top candidate to the Hall of Fame Class of 2012.[9] He will remain eligible to be inducted by the Baseball Writers' Association until 2024. . and what would account for such an increase in needed votes?

Nymr83 Jan 09 2012 09:42 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

AdamRubin on twitter says Bagwell, Larkin, Murphy,Morris. I think that's a TERRIBLE ballot with two guys who don't belong in and ommitting Raines and Trammell. I'm not (yet) an advocate of Edgar Martinez, but I'd take him over Murphy as well

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 10:10 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

metirish wrote: Dumb question but........if Larkin wasn't a HOF player last year why is he this year?, providing he gets in of course. My answer would be: because perspectives evolve and arguments get made in one year that get absorbed in a subsequent year. Tough questions take a while to discuss and chew on. A simpler answer would be because he looks better compared to this group than to others.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 09 2012 12:49 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Bagwell and Raines are headed the right way. And the talk around Raines in public fora (voting and non-voting alike) seems to sound a little to me like the Blyleven talk of the last few years.

sharpie Jan 09 2012 01:04 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin by hisself.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2012 01:05 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

LARKIN ... and him alone.

attgig Jan 09 2012 01:06 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Barry Larkin 495 (86.4%), Jack Morris 382 (66.7%), Jeff Bagwell 321 (56.0%), Lee Smith 290 (50.6%), Tim Raines 279 (48.7%), Edgar Martinez 209 (36.5%), Alan Trammell 211 (36.8%), Fred McGriff 137 (23.9%), Larry Walker 131 (22.9%), Mark McGwire 112 (19.5%), Don Mattingly 102 (17.8%), Dale Murphy 83 (14.5%), Rafael Palmeiro 72 (12.6%), Bernie Williams 55 (9.6%), Juan Gonzalez 23 (4.0%), Vinny Castilla 6 (1.0%), Tim Salmon 5 (0.9%), Bill Mueller 4 (0.7%), Brad Radke 2 (0.3%), Javy Lopez 1 (0.2%), Eric Young 1 (0.2%), Jeromy Burnitz 0, Brian Jordan 0, Terry Mulholland 0, Phil Nevin 0, Ruben Sierra 0, Tony Womack 0.

attgig Jan 09 2012 01:08 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

just some thoughts: NO love for mcgwire... lower than a whole lotta people. who voted for eric young? how does Burnitz, Jordan, Mulholland, Nevin, Sierra, and Womack get even on the ballot, but Olerud not?

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 01:10 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Morris sure seems to have hit a point of no return, though.

seawolf17 Jan 09 2012 01:14 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Good to see the lack of support for Bernie.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2012 01:15 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

attgig wrote: NO love for mcgwire... lower than a whole lotta people. -- Well, we know what that's about. That's about the level he's been at for a couple years now. who voted for eric young? -- The hell with that, what FOUR GUYS voted for Bill Mueller? how does Burnitz, Jordan, Mulholland, Nevin, Sierra, and Womack get even on the ballot, but Olerud not? -- I don't even understand the reasoning behind this 'pre-vote' winnowing process. They used to put just about everyone who qualified on the ballot and let the voters eliminate the non-starters. As long as you played the required 10 years and didn't get caught sticking puppies into the microwave or playing with naked children in the shower you should get your day on the ballot.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 01:23 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

It was ten years, and then they'd remove maybe one or two who were backup catchers that whole time. Now they seem to be a bit more particular about who makes it onto the ballot and remove, it seems, quite a few guys. I think that's a disservice not only to the players who would be at the back end of the ballot but don't get their day in court, but also those at the top, who don't have as large a pool to make them look good next to. I think, psychologically, it's a lot easier for a sportswriter to check seven names out of 100 than seven out of 15.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2012 01:26 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Top Ten Table PLAYER VOTES PCT Barry Larkin 495 86.4% Jack Morris 382 66.7% Jeff Bagwell 321 56.0% Lee Smith 290 50.6% Tim Raines 279 48.7% Alan Trammel 211 36.8% Edgar Martinez 209 36.5% Fred McGriff 137 23.9% Larry Walker 131 22.9% Mark McGwire 112 19.5% I would have preferred to see Raines over Larkin who I always thought missed too much time with injuries, but I don't have a big problem with it.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 01:39 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

That's certainly true, but he was the class of the league at his position for a not insignificant period of time, and there's little more we can ask of a Hall-of-Famer than that. Also went .338 / .397 / .465 // .862 in 78 plate appearances in the going-postal season. Money. Tim Raines behind Lee Smith is troubling. What don't I know about Juan Gone? He seems to be behind at least a half dozen clearly inferior players. Am I forgetting that he was caught smuggling HGH out of Mexico or something?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2012 01:47 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

He didn't get traded to the Mets.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 09 2012 01:48 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Edgy DC wrote: What don't I know about Juan Gone? He seems to be behind at least a half dozen clearly inferior players. Am I forgetting that he was caught smuggling HGH out of Mexico or something? Mitchell Report mention? (Hey, it's more than Bagwell's got attached to HIS name.)

metsguyinmichigan Jan 09 2012 01:54 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I think Gonzalez was implicated somewhere. Canseco's book, maybe? His performance sure did fall off quickly. Never recovered from the year in Detroit. I don't understand why Raines isn't getting more support. I'd say Morris is on the right path, but there are those stacked classes coming up in the next couple of years. You know rare it is for the writers to elect more than two people. And with all the mega stars on the ballots, I can see Jack needing a bunch more years. Do you see them putting Morris in ahead of Maddux, Glavine, Smotz? I think Schilling will be an interesting debate -- and I put him in the Morris category. Clemens should look at the tallies for McGwire and Palmiero and not plan on an induction any time soon.

Mets – Willets Point Jan 09 2012 01:55 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Benjamin Grimm wrote: He didn't get traded to the Mets. I still chuckle at the memory of "JUAN GONZALEZ SIGNS!"

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 02:04 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I think Gonzalez was implicated somewhere. Canseco's book, maybe? His performance sure did fall off quickly. Never recovered from the year in Detroit. It certainly began a downfall, but he went to Cleveland the next year and bounced back very strongly --- 140 RBI, in fact, which would be a Met record by a big stretch. He had one good and two poor partial years after that. http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ju03.shtml

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 02:14 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Neyer offers a way out for voters shy about voting for a potential juicer, evidence or no.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 09 2012 02:26 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I don't think Neyer's idea is any good. Recall elections? You going to unscrew a guy's plaque and take away his HOF ring?

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 02:33 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

It would be pretty cool if they did. If it came to that, things would have to have come to a pretty serious juncture. Rape, murder, child molesting, for instance. It would also be a motivation for dirty guys to come out right NOW!!!! in order to begin rebuilding their reps before being exposed to that deeper disgrace.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 09 2012 02:38 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

So you'd take OJ out of the football HoF?

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 02:46 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

The day I visit the Pro Football Hall of Fame will be the day I really pack it in, self-worth wise. O.J. was found not guilty --- at least on the murder charges. But I'd certainly support Simpson's ejection if there was a fair and honest mechanism subjecting him to scrutiny by the same body that inducted him.

Nymr83 Jan 09 2012 02:57 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Congratulations to Larkin! The travesty against Tim Raines continues and Bagwell is left out as well. The two of them may both be casualties of the steroid era: one for daring to hit like an 80's hitter in the 80's and the other for having big muscles at a time when "everyone was juicing." Hopefully Bagwell gets in next year with his teammate Biggio! Meanwhile, Morris seems to be a BENEFICIARY of the steroid era as the only "justification" I can see for voting for him is to completely ignore the era in which HE pitched and judge him against the pitcher of the late-90's who had to contend with juiced hitters, juiced baseballs, queztec, smaller parks, and sammy sosa's corked bat (joking on that last one)

G-Fafif Jan 09 2012 03:19 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

In 139 games against the Mets, reasonably close to a full season's worth (especially the full season of his MVP year of strike-shortened 1995), Larkin produced at a .279/.346/.393 clip. Scored 70 runs, stole 33 bases, 7 HR, 59 RBI. • 0-for-3 with a walk in the game that mattered most between the Mets and Reds during his career, Game 163 from October 4, 1999. • 2-for-4 with a walk in one of the worst games ever, May 6, 1995, when the Mets held an 11-4 lead (featuring Edgardo Alfonzo's first MLB HR, an inside-the-park job) and lost 13-11. Singled to lead off the decisive ninth, in which the Reds scored three times off Doug Henry. • Made the error that led to the run on April 30, 1988 that nearly caused a riot at Riverfront (Mets won 6-5, Rose, out to argue the call at first on Mookie's grounder, shoved umpire Dave Pallone). • Doubled and scored twice to help build a 3-1 Reds lead that Bobby Bonilla erased on his last-swing homer off Rob Dibble on August 30, 1992, the Sunday night when that creep Dibble tore his turn-back-the-clock vest off his massive body and left it on the Shea grass.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2012 06:51 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Getting close to the limit: Morris has two years left on his eligibility; Dale Murphy just one Trammel has four; Lee Smith five

Nymr83 Jan 09 2012 07:06 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Frayed Knot wrote: Getting close to the limit: Morris has two years left on his eligibility; Dale Murphy just one Trammel has four; Lee Smith five Hopefully the surge of legit hall of famers in the next few years will see Morris go bye-bye and lose eligibility. Murphy seems a goner at this point, he doesn't have enough momentum to get in NEXT year even if you assume some sort of "last chance" jump in support. It'll be sad to see Trammell go, but hopefully the veterans committee will remember him better than the writers have. Smith can hopefully be a casualty of numbers as well, I don't think a 1-iining pitcher has a place in the HOF

Ashie62 Jan 09 2012 07:08 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin? I guess they had to throw someone out there in August.

Fman99 Jan 09 2012 07:13 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Ashie62 wrote: Larkin? I guess they had to throw someone out there in August. Yeah, he's seriously underwhelming to me. Is he really that much better than Alan Trammell?

Nymr83 Jan 09 2012 07:20 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

No, he's not that much better than Trammell, but both deserved to get in. Larkin-Trammell-Ripken were 3 great shortstops before their numbers got dwarfed in a different era by Arod-Jeter-Nomar(remember him? He dropped off a cliff!)

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 07:51 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

If Larkin isn't one of the ten best shortstops in MLB history, I'm a monkey's uncle. Certainly one of the ten best retired ones.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 08:02 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

G-Fafif wrote: In 139 games against the Mets, reasonably close to a full season's worth (especially the full season of his MVP year of strike-shortened 1995), Larkin produced at a .279/.346/.393 clip. Scored 70 runs, stole 33 bases, 7 HR, 59 RBI. • 0-for-3 with a walk in the game that mattered most between the Mets and Reds during his career, Game 163 from October 4, 1999. • 2-for-4 with a walk in one of the worst games ever, May 6, 1995, when the Mets held an 11-4 lead (featuring Edgardo Alfonzo's first MLB HR, an inside-the-park job) and lost 13-11. Singled to lead off the decisive ninth, in which the Reds scored three times off Doug Henry. • Made the error that led to the run on April 30, 1988 that nearly caused a riot at Riverfront (Mets won 6-5, Rose, out to argue the call at first on Mookie's grounder, shoved umpire Dave Pallone). • Doubled and scored twice to help build a 3-1 Reds lead that Bobby Bonilla erased on his last-swing homer off Rob Dibble on August 30, 1992, the Sunday night when that creep Dibble tore his turn-back-the-clock vest off his massive body and left it on the Shea grass. • Has a daughter named Brielle D'Shea Larkin. Chipper isn't the only opponent that liked Shea.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 09 2012 08:03 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin's top-10, bordering on top-5. Trammell's definitely top-15, and on the outer edge of the top-10 borderline.

G-Fafif Jan 09 2012 08:15 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Larkin was one of the greats at his position in his time and as long as I've been watching baseball, but damned if I can remember anything truly signature about him, whether it's episodic or characteristic. Consistently excellent but unless you're a Reds fan, maybe not "memorable". Without the close 1995 MVP vote going his way (Dante Bichette's traditional powerhouse numbers for a surprise playoff team discounted by Coors Field being Coors Field and Greg Maddux having the silly judgment to be a pitcher), I wonder if he would have made it so relatively soon. Was the first SS to win NL MVP since Ernie Banks in 1959, and the last one until Jimmy Rollins in 2007.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 08:58 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Bill James ranking around the turn of the (21st) century, and not including Negro Leaguers, had it this way: [list=1][*]Wagner[/*:m] [*]Vaughn[/*:m] [*]Ripken[/*:m] [*]Yount[/*:m] [*]Banks[/*:m] [*]Larkin[/*:m] [*]Smith[/*:m] [*]Cronin[/*:m] [*]Trammell[/*:m] [*]Reese[/*:m] [*]Appling[/*:m] [*]Boudreau[/*:m] [*]Aparaicio[/*:m] [*]Davis[/*:m] [*]Fregosi[/*:m] [*]Rizzuto[/*:m] [*]Rodriguez (with Nomar Garciaparra and Drek Jeter stuck in here at 17.5 for no good reason[/*:m] [*]Jennings[/*:m] [*]Wills[/*:m] [*]Pesky[/*:m][/list:o] Now, I think we need to consider a list from the likes of Bill James as, at least, somewhat authoritative. I'm perfectly willing to accept Jeter and Rodriguez as having passed him, using James' standard that a guy with a legacy split at more than one position gets the totality of his career ranked at that position. But I also think he passes Mr. Cub in the remaining four years of his career, also. We're left with a top eleven that looks something like: [list=1][*]Wagner[/*:m] [*]Rodriguez[/*:m] [*]Vaughn[/*:m] [*]Ripken[/*:m] [*]Yount[/*:m] [*]Jeter[/*:m] [*]Larkin[/*:m] [*]Banks[/*:m] [*]Smith[/*:m] [*]Cronin[/*:m] [*]Trammell[/*:m][/list:o] Now, for another picture, take away the James pretend-he-only-played-one-position standard, and we look at it with a lot of points Wagner, Rodriguez, Ripken, Yount, and Banks accrued at other positions. Trammell gets himself sneaking into the top ten that way mebbe, probably ahead of Banks. Hardly a throw-out. Great players, these guys. Just didn't have Ripken's publicist. Or Derek Jeter's.

MFS62 Jan 09 2012 09:25 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Who is the "Davis" at #14? I went on Baseball Reference , entered "Davis" and couldn't recognize a shortstop with that last name. Who did I miss? Later

Edgy MD Jan 09 2012 09:44 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

George Davis, a turn-of-the-century Giant, White Sock, and Cleveland Spider, too. Played a big chunk of his career at other positions too.

MFS62 Jan 09 2012 09:56 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Thanks. Like Wagner, Vaughn and Cronin on that second list, just a tad before my time. Later

Chad Ochoseis Jan 10 2012 07:29 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Jim Fregosi, right in there with the Hall of Famers.

MFS62 Jan 10 2012 07:38 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Chad Ochoseis wrote: Jim Fregosi, right in there with the Hall of Famers. I just threw up in my mouth. Later

Edgy MD Jan 10 2012 07:39 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Well, the name Fregosi certainly appeared last night, so I assumed any vomit would have happened then. The other thing that helps frame that list is that Alex Rodriguez, assuming he stays at third another two years, will eventually disappear from it, no longer chasing Honus Wagner as the most accomplished player who ever spent the majority of his career at shortstop, but instead chasing (and I imagine he will have exceeded at that point, if not already) Mike Schmidt as the most accomplished player who ever spent the majority of his career at third. That would only bump Larkin (and Trammell) up a notch. If you include Negro Leaguers, Pop Lloyd would certainly be ahead of him. Maybe one or two others.

seawolf17 Jan 10 2012 08:39 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

If you told me in 1988 that Dale Murphy wouldn't even sniff the Hall, I would have kicked you in the nuts.

Nymr83 Jan 10 2012 08:42 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

What if I'd told you in '88 that Gooden and Strawberry weren't getting in? Good list of Shortstops, where is Rizzuto on that list (and how the hell is he in the hall??)

Edgy MD Jan 10 2012 08:47 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well. OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8. Hanley Ramírez and José Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR.

seawolf17 Jan 10 2012 09:01 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Nymr83 wrote: What if I'd told you in '88 that Gooden and Strawberry weren't getting in? I would have been surprised, but not shocked; they were both only five or so years in at that point. Same with Reyes/Wright now; if they got hit by buses tomorrow, they're not HOFers. But Murphy was, at least to 12-year-old me.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 10 2012 09:08 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

That's why 12-year-olds don't get to vote for the Hall of Fame! Now they just need to take sportswriters out of the mix too.

MFS62 Jan 10 2012 09:10 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Edgy DC wrote: Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well. OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8. Hanley Ramírez and José Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR. Rizzuto was the glue of the infield that won many championships. Never flashy, always steady. He played in an era when shortstop was a defensive position, with hitting secondary. Considering the third and second basemen who played with him (BTW, third baseman Andy Carey passed away the other day) were constantly being platooned by Casey, he was the constant. Later

seawolf17 Jan 10 2012 09:28 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Edgy DC wrote: José Reyes ... 29.3 career WAR. Dude had five ABs for the Cubs in 2006. Don't know how that equates to 29.3 WAR. Told you the stat was flawed.

metsguyinmichigan Jan 10 2012 09:41 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

MFS62 wrote: Chad Ochoseis wrote: Jim Fregosi, right in there with the Hall of Famers. I just threw up in my mouth. Later Well, it shows that the Mets weren't exactly getting a bum. The trade looks horrible now because we know what Ryan became -- and how Fregosi fell apart. But he was a damn good player for a while.

Frayed Knot Jan 10 2012 10:14 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

MFS62 wrote: Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well. OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8. Hanley Ramírez and José Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR. Rizzuto was the glue of the infield that won many championships. Never flashy, always steady. He played in an era when shortstop was a defensive position, with hitting secondary. Considering the third and second basemen who played with him (BTW, third baseman Andy Carey passed away the other day) were constantly being platooned by Casey, he was the constant. The problem with that whole 'he played while they won' argument - especially as it's used for Rizzuto - is that Yanx won nine pennants in the ten years after Scooter was no longer their main guy (he never got as many as 400 ABs after 1953) including six of seven once the team (quite unceremoniously btw) dumped him for good. Tony Kubek for the Hall!!

Frayed Knot Jan 10 2012 10:16 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

seawolf17 wrote: If you told me in 1988 that Dale Murphy wouldn't even sniff the Hall, I would have kicked you in the nuts. Murphy to me is like Mattingly: Five or six HoF seasons to start off their careers but much closer to ordinary after that. Neither should be in IMO.

Edgy MD Jan 10 2012 10:21 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

attgig wrote: just some thoughts: NO love for mcgwire... lower than a whole lotta people. who voted for eric young? how does Burnitz, Jordan, Mulholland, Nevin, Sierra, and Womack get even on the ballot, but Olerud not? Olerud apparently was on last year, and received four votes.

Vic Sage Jan 10 2012 11:38 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

i understand why some writers would choose not to vote for those actually used steroids (by admission, or testing, or naming in the Mitchell report), but to withhold votes from a guy like Bagwell, about whom there is literally NO evidence or even accusation of PED use, simply because he was big and hit HRs in the astrodome, is so exceptionally unfair as to make such voters unfit to wield a vote. And it does not bode well for Sam Champion's buddy, Mr. Piazza, in the future.

Nymr83 Jan 10 2012 11:55 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

You think Piazza won't get in on the first ballot because of steroid suspicions or because of rumors that he was "sam champion's buddy"? Does he make it the 2nd year once the "none of these guys are first ballot" dopes come along? I'm ready to book the hotel room in Cooperstown, I mean why not? I haven't been there in roughly 15 years and when is another Met potentially going in again?

Ceetar Jan 10 2012 12:01 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Nymr83 wrote: You think Piazza won't get in on the first ballot because of steroid suspicions or because of rumors that he was "sam champion's buddy"? Does he make it the 2nd year once the "none of these guys are first ballot" dopes come along? I'm ready to book the hotel room in Cooperstown, I mean why not? I haven't been there in roughly 15 years and when is another Met potentially going in again? yeah, definitely tempting. (next time? Perhaps ~2019 when Beltran's eligible?)

Benjamin Grimm Jan 10 2012 12:02 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I think the point is that if steroid suspicions are keeping Bagwell out, then the same might happen to Piazza.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 10 2012 12:03 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Ceetar wrote: (next time? Perhaps ~2019 when Beltran's eligible?) Well, there's Glavine in 2014...

Edgy MD Jan 10 2012 12:16 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Yeah, definitely book that reservation. You'll also be present for the first-ballot Metly inductions of Shawn Green, Roberto Hernandez, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Jeff Conine, Mike Stanton, and Aaron Sele.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 10 2012 12:28 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Don't be joking. Aaron Sele was never a Met.

seawolf17 Jan 10 2012 12:41 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Don't be joking. Aaron Sele was never a Met. Neither was Tom Glavine.

Chad Ochoseis Jan 10 2012 03:07 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Edgy DC wrote: Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well. OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8. Hanley Ramírez and José Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR. Vern Stephens had a career WAR of 44.5 and led the AL in RBI three times as a shortstop (OK, he played in some hitters' parks, but still...). Bill James wrote a pretty passionate chapter in his Hall of Fame book arguing that Stephens was a better all-around shortstop than Rizzuto, so I'm surprised that he didn't make James' list. metsguyinmichigan wrote: Well, it shows that the Mets weren't exactly getting a bum. The trade looks horrible now because we know what Ryan became -- and how Fregosi fell apart. But he was a damn good player for a while. Yeah, this. Fregosi put up some great numbers before injuries/lack of motivation/etc. took its toll. Sort of an Andruw Jones of the Nixon era.

Edgy MD Jan 10 2012 05:38 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Good point. James had Stephens ranked number 22 through 2000. I'll let his comments speak for him, the first three paragraphs speaking directly to your question. Speaking of drinking men*... in The Politics of Glory, I compared and contrasted Vern Stephens and Phil Rizzuto at perhaps unconsionable length. I know that a lot people who read that book thought that I was saying that Stephens was a better player and a better Hall of Fame candidate than Phil Rizzuto. Obviously I have to take responsibility for the misunderstanding, but it was never my intention to say that. I was trying to present both sides of the argument. Until I developed the Win Shares method (1997–1999), I didn't have any way of determining, to my own satisfaction, whether Rizzuto or Stephens was a better player. Where I am now... well, I can still see it either way. I've decided to rate Rizzuto higher. Stephens at his best was not as good as Rizzuto in 1950. Stephens has more good years, but only because Rizzuto missed three prime seasons to World War II. Stephens and Rizzuto are similar in value, but very different in type — a speedster against a slugger, a defensive player against a hitter, a leadoff man against a cleanup hitter, a player who played in a pitcher's park against a player who plays in a hitter's park, a player who had a good break on playing time against a player who missed three of his bet seasons. When you try to balance them against one another, you can't be sure that you have it right unless you can be sure that you're placing exactly the right weight on each element. Baseball stats don't support that degree of confidence. Stephens, a straight-A student in high school, never made his high school baseball team in Long Beach because he was too small. Famous American Athletes of Today (115h Series, 1949) says that when he was a senior in high school, he weighted less than a hundred pounds, although frankly I find this difficult to believe. Stephens took to swimming several hours a day, anyway, and had a growth spurt when he was 18, after which, playing for an American Legion post, he began to draw the interest of scouts. As a freshman at Long Beach Junior College, he hit .552. Deferred from military service because of a knee injury, Stevens** during the war established himself as perhaps the best wartime position player in the American League, leading the St. Louis Browns to their only American League pennant. In March, 1946, Stephens was holding out for more money and feuding with the Browns at the time that Jorge Pasquel was attempting to raid the major leagues to upgrade the Mexican League. Stephens accepted a bonus, agreed to jump to the Mexican League, signed with Monterrey, and actually played two games in the Mexican League. Stephens father***, however, realized that his son might be making a terrible mistake. Accompanied by Jacques Fournier, a St. Louis scout, Vern Stephens Sr. headed to Monterrey. He quickly persuaded Vern Jr. to return to the states****, but the Mexican authorities refused him permission to re-enter the United States, and implicitly threatened to have him arrested for jumping his contract. Stephens had to sneak across the border, wearing borrowed clothes as a makeshift disguise, to get back to the United States. He returned the bonus he had taken from the Mexican League, made a deal with the Browns, and was allowed to re-join the team, thus avoiding the fate of Max Lanier, Mickey Owen, Sal Maglie, and others. The Browns traded him to the Red Sox, and he drove in a huge number of runs for the Red Sox; I'm sure you all know that. He had an open stance which pulled the ball naturally to left. Fenway suited him. He faded quickly after 1950, died in 1968, and has not been treated kindly or even fairly by baseball historians; the word "carefree" is one of the more pleasant ones to which his reputation has become accustomed. He was not a superstar but he was a well-liked player who could play shortstop because he had the best shortstop throwing arm of his generation. *This is a reference not only to Stephens but to Bill Dahlen, ranked at number 21. **He actually spells it "Stevens" here. James, who supposedly treats his editors notoriously poorly, has a wonderful book here, but the terrible editing is heartbreaking. ***Note the absence of an apostrophe here for instance. ****He lower-cases "states" here. Seriously. James doesn't mention that his draft deferment didn't keep him from pulling his weight in a shipyard during WWII: Also sucked his share of cigs:

G-Fafif Jul 22 2012 07:43 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Barry Larkin, Vicki Santo, Bob Elliott and our own (in the context of his remarks) Tim McCarver each spoke brilliantly at Cooperstown this weekend. Elliott spoke for Canada, Vicki for her late husband's fight against diabetes, Larkin told rich and detailed stories about the vets who helped him as he broke in (great story about Buddy Bell and Dodger Stadium) and Tim confirmed that his sixteen seasons with the Mets were the highlight of his broadcasting career. Plus a lovely video montage for the Kid. Hope MLBN reruns this stuff somewhere, though it's not the schedule or their site. I guess they can always run Kevin Millar and Chris Rose eight more times a day.