Master Index of Archived Threads


Hot Stove Burns?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2011 11:24 PM

The Rays moved backup catcher John Jaso two days ago to Seattle for an undervalued prospect with stuff that suggests that it could dominate in a major-league bullpen, and minor-league numbers that back up that suggestion. Nice move... except that the reason he was undervalued was a substantive rape accusation pled down to "false imprisonment with violence." Rays fan/blogger 'Mobutu Sese Seko' dissects it here with laserlike focus and altogether-appropriate fulmination. Whether a lesson was learned and full punishment endured is anyone's guess, but assuming that either condition has been met is probably a bad one. Lueke might have unjustly spent 42 days in jail, or he might have gotten away with serving only 42 days of a 12-year sentence. If you believe the latter and want to find some solace in his comments since his plea bargain, don't bother. The only thing worse than the insipidly homiletic comments about "lessons" and "moving on" and "faith" his mouth ejaculates is his tendency to describe the accusations in ever more minimizing, vague and trivial terms. ("It was just a freak accident kind of thing"!) In a year's time, he might refer to the prospect of his own trial and a woman's rape as "that thing that was so random!" But, you know, all randomness is God's plan... Josh Lueke is cheap because he's devalued himself, not because of a failure of mathematical analysis, and the Rays front office is passing the savings on to you and hoping that you legitimize the process by cheering anyway... They bought low on someone whose price and worth deserves to stay there.

Ceetar Dec 01 2011 05:13 AM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

it boils down to one thing for me. I don't believe that the guy should be banned from playing baseball for something that it wasn't, and can't be, proven he did. The small market Rays need every advantage they can get, and if can get a reliever they think can help them at an undervalued cost because he's tainted? So be it.

metirish Dec 01 2011 05:54 AM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Ceetar wrote: it boils down to one thing for me. I don't believe that the guy should be banned from playing baseball for something that it wasn't, and can't be, proven he did. . what? While in the Rangers organization Lueke was arrested following a May 2008 incident and charged with having committed rape and non-consensual sodomy. During the investigation Lueke lied to the police by denying he had sexual contact with the victim (an assertion proven false by DNA testing), and he pled no contest to lesser charges of false imprisonment with violence and was sentenced to 42 days in jail, time served prior to making bail.[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Lueke

Ceetar Dec 01 2011 06:52 AM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

I'd have traded Mike Nickeas for him. Guys got a 10.7 K/9 rate in the minors.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 01 2011 04:13 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

So it's optimism about the Mets' prospects, unmitigated cynicism regarding sex crimes accusers? He eventually-- EVENTUALLY, after repeatedly lying about even knowing the accuser -- stipulated to the facts as laid out by Seko in his post (and they are graphic, so I'll refrain from recapping them here).I'm not arguing--or even suggesting--he be banned from baseball, and I don't think Seko isquite doing so, either; but is there a natural right to MLB employ that talent--superseding all othrr imperatives-- buys you?

Ceetar Dec 01 2011 04:52 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: So it's optimism about the Mets' prospects, unmitigated cynicism regarding sex crimes accusers? He eventually-- EVENTUALLY, after repeatedly lying about even knowing the accuser -- stipulated to the facts as laid out by Seko in his post (and they are graphic, so I'll refrain from recapping them here).I'm not arguing--or even suggesting--he be banned from baseball, and I don't think Seko isquite doing so, either; but is there a natural right to MLB employ that talent--superseding all othrr imperatives-- buys you? maybe it's just a belief in the justice system, flawed or not. He made a plea bargain and served the compromised time. He came out the other side with a marketable, and highly desirable, skill. why should a 'false imprisonment with violence' stop someone from buying that skill, presuming of course that there isn't any reason to think the sentence would be something that could affect his using that skill?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 01 2011 06:08 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 01 2011 09:00 PM

Because his skill is only valuable insofar as it entertains, and his overall value as an entertainer may be somewhat compromised by the fact that he's-- lets call a sexually-violent spade a spade here-- a non-convicted rapist. An unrepentant one, at that. I'm not asking that the players who represent the entertainment venture I support be angels, or even decent human beings. I would, however, prefer that they not be visibly, provably abhorrent, other-human-being-violating human beings; I think that it's a fair thing to ask of a franchise I help financially support, and I also think it's fair to withhold my support-- in part or toto-- if the franchise isn't being built in a way that I like, or can abide (and in a way that offends my personal morality much more egregiously than hiring a productive pothead or a hitter with low walk rates would).

Edgy MD Dec 01 2011 06:41 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Nobody is suggesting that he be banned, and it's a cheap distortion to suggest that that's the issue. But I wouldn't want him representing my team or city on the field of honor until he's borne the weight of his transgression through a much darker valley then his words have imply he has walked.

Ceetar Dec 01 2011 07:04 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Edgy DC wrote: Nobody is suggesting that he be banned, and it's a cheap distortion to suggest that that's the issue. But I wouldn't want him representing my team or city on the field of honor until he's borne the weight of his transgression through a much darker valley then his words have imply he has walked. Probably isn't enough for me to demand he meet some sort of 'darker valley', and apparently it wasn't for the Rays either. Especially from one isolated event three years ago. If there were still rumors of him Ben Roethlisbergering his way around bars (and maybe the Rays did do a little background check), it'd be a different story.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2011 07:20 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Yeah, well I'm not the Rays and I don't want to be. Minimizing your actions with what LWFS calls "vague and trivial terms" seems to me to be indifferent enough to count as "Ben Roethlisbergering" around bars. It also makes the "event" far less isolated. You know, look the other way at Ben Roethlisbergering around bars long enough, guys start thinking that they can get away with Jordan van der slooting around the Caribbean. It's really simple. I don't want to root for men who do horrible things. Neither does at least one Rays fan. Good.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 01 2011 10:23 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Another stupid jock getting away with something. Served right after I'd been reading about the pussy Jersey high school footballers who lawyered up so as to play in the championship game despite arrests for engaging in a 9-on-2 stomping incident. They argue that as minors they deserve to have names withheld until proven guilty but their absence in the game would make them appear so. The coach is the father of some NFL douchebag taking up the stompers' cause so you know he's legit.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 02 2011 12:35 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

A few years ago the Clippers signed Ruben Patterson. Decent 3, good defender, whatever. He'd previously pled guilty to trying to rape a woman who was his children's nanny. Second chances and all that, but I was disgusted that asshole was on the team I supported, and I felt zero conflict in tuning the franchise out and changing my LA Clipper entertainment budget from 'a little once in a while' to 'jack shit'. Ceetar wrote: Probably isn't enough for me to demand he meet some sort of 'darker valley', and apparently it wasn't for the Rays either. Especially from one isolated event three years ago. If there were still rumors of him Ben Roethlisbergering his way around bars (and maybe the Rays did do a little background check), it'd be a different story. Not to pile on ya Ceets, but isn't 'one isolated event' one way too fucking many? Where do you draw the line?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 02 2011 12:40 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

"Well, apart from that one time he anally raped that drunk girl while she was passed out in a bathroom, then lied about it until confronted with incontrovertible physical evidence, then talked about it as if it was something that 'happened' to him... he's a pretty solid dude."

Ceetar Dec 02 2011 12:45 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

A Boy Named Seo wrote: A few years ago the Clippers signed Ruben Patterson. Decent 3, good defender, whatever. He'd previously pled guilty to trying to rape a woman who was his children's nanny. Second chances and all that, but I was disgusted that asshole was on the team I supported, and I felt zero conflict in tuning the franchise out and changing my LA Clipper entertainment budget from 'a little once in a while' to 'jack shit'. Ceetar wrote: Probably isn't enough for me to demand he meet some sort of 'darker valley', and apparently it wasn't for the Rays either. Especially from one isolated event three years ago. If there were still rumors of him Ben Roethlisbergering his way around bars (and maybe the Rays did do a little background check), it'd be a different story. Not to pile on ya Ceets, but isn't 'one isolated event' one way too fucking many? Where do you draw the line? I don't know. But people change and grow up too. Michael Vick's making millions. People deserve a second chance. I'm perfectly capable of separating the personal life stuff and the entertainment him helping my team win brings. particularly when it's history and not something he's doing while I'm rooting for him, and when the crime is an unproven case of drunken he said, she said.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 02 2011 01:23 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Michael Vick making millions does not mean he's changed or grown up. If anything, he sounds like the same old arsehole to me. Staying on point, though, it sounds like as long as he's not sodomizing a passed-out girl and lying to cops about it while he's getting a pivotal out for a team you root for in a meaningful game, then it's just 'history' and you have no probs separating it. Gotcha.

Ceetar Dec 02 2011 01:31 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

And I've got no problem if others find they can't root for him, although I think Michael Vick (and plenty of other characters across sports history) is a fair example of how ultimately these types of things are off the field news bytes and when it's go time, it's mostly forgotten. Particularly when you're winning. (Nevermind that 99% of Rays fans will never know about it, since most sports fans aren't paying attention to the personal life stuff) But maybe I'm just a callous person that doesn't really care about other people i don't know and/or assume everyone else I'm rooting for has probably done similar stuff and just didn't get caught. Not ruling that out. It's not really much different than what Johan Santana did, although presumably they were both sober and the evidence that she was unwilling in that case is seemingly less substantial, not that those things matter.

metsmarathon Dec 02 2011 01:33 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

oh please. like none of you guys never accidentally and totally uncharacteristically raped a woman you barely knew and had gotten drunk. it happens to everybody, doesn't it? what's wrong with a guy raping a woman just that one time? it doesn't mean you're a bad guy, does it? why can't we just sweep it under the rug like drunk driving? they're not really major crimes anyway. just things they tell us not to do. like changing lanes without using your turn signal or tearing the tags off of mattresses.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 01:56 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Ceetar wrote: And I've got no problem if others find they can't root for him, although I think Michael Vick (and plenty of other characters across sports history) is a fair example of how ultimately these types of things are off the field news bytes and when it's go time, it's mostly forgotten. Particularly when you're winning. (Nevermind that 99% of Rays fans will never know about it, since most sports fans aren't paying attention to the personal life stuff) But maybe I'm just a callous person that doesn't really care about other people i don't know and/or assume everyone else I'm rooting for has probably done similar stuff and just didn't get caught. Not ruling that out. It's not really much different than what Johan Santana did, although presumably they were both sober and the evidence that she was unwilling in that case is seemingly less substantial, not that those things matter. Of course they matter. What the heck?

Ceetar Dec 02 2011 02:01 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: And I've got no problem if others find they can't root for him, although I think Michael Vick (and plenty of other characters across sports history) is a fair example of how ultimately these types of things are off the field news bytes and when it's go time, it's mostly forgotten. Particularly when you're winning. (Nevermind that 99% of Rays fans will never know about it, since most sports fans aren't paying attention to the personal life stuff) But maybe I'm just a callous person that doesn't really care about other people i don't know and/or assume everyone else I'm rooting for has probably done similar stuff and just didn't get caught. Not ruling that out. It's not really much different than what Johan Santana did, although presumably they were both sober and the evidence that she was unwilling in that case is seemingly less substantial, not that those things matter. Of course they matter. What the heck? whether or not they've consumed alcohol doesn't really matter to me. It's not a crutch to excuse bad decision making.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 02:05 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Well sheesh, it matters to courts. Evidence of consent also matters too. A lot.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2011 02:05 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

It's not the sobriety part that matters as much as the willing/unwilling part.

metsmarathon Dec 02 2011 02:25 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Ceetar wrote: And I've got no problem if others find they can't root for him, although I think Michael Vick (and plenty of other characters across sports history) is a fair example of how ultimately these types of things are off the field news bytes and when it's go time, it's mostly forgotten. Particularly when you're winning. (Nevermind that 99% of Rays fans will never know about it, since most sports fans aren't paying attention to the personal life stuff) are you arguing about how most fans react (or how you perceive them to react) to criminals on tehir favorite teams, or how you yourself react to criminals on your favorite team? i think it's an important distinction. But maybe I'm just a callous person that doesn't really care about other people i don't know and/or assume everyone else I'm rooting for has probably done similar stuff and just didn't get caught. Not ruling that out. It's not really much different than what Johan Santana did, although presumably they were both sober and the evidence that she was unwilling in that case is seemingly less substantial, not that those things matter. i can't fully grasp what you're saying here, or maybe i don't want to. are you saying that since you don't know the history of all of your players, you can either assume they're all rapists or just dismiss those whose raping history you do discover? are you also saying that you find no discernable doifference between one case of rape and sodomy of a woman who was drunked up, which resulted in a honest to goodness criminal investigation and plea to / conviction of the crime of unlawful miprisonment with violence, and a (perhaps specious) case that was investigated and subsequently dismissed by the investigative body? there's a world of difference betweeen being guilty of a felony and being accused of one, especially when the accusation fails to amount to so much as a trial.

Ceetar Dec 02 2011 02:28 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Edgy DC wrote: Well sheesh, it matters to courts. Evidence of consent also matters too. A lot. And you're saying what exactly, that he cheated the system? skated 'free' because he's an athlete? Or that he must be guilty despite there never having been a formal trial but the court agreed to a plea bargain and despite not actually being tried the evidence being presented is all the evidence there is, and is clearly enough to state he's a rapist and deserves more punishment than the justice system was willing to give out?

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 02:33 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

I'm saying what I'm saying. That what you say doesn't matter to you matters to the state and federal courts.

Ceetar Dec 02 2011 02:42 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

Edgy DC wrote: I'm saying what I'm saying. That what you say doesn't matter to you matters to the state and federal courts. we're so far beyond the courts. he's been tried and served. All I'm saying is I'm not passing further judgement on him, that I'd gladly give up a crappy backup catcher for a guy that could seriously help the bullpen, even if he has this incident in his past.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 02:47 PM Re: Hot Stove Burns?

No, that's not all you're saying. You're saying stuff like, "It's not really much different than what Johan Santana did, although presumably they were both sober and the evidence that she was unwilling in that case is seemingly less substantial, not that those things matter."