Master Index of Archived Threads


The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculation)

bmfc1 Nov 27 2011 07:00 AM split segment

Murray Chass does not recommend that the Red Sox hire Bobby V.: http://www.murraychass.com/?p=4056

A Boy Named Seo Nov 27 2011 10:44 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

bmfc1 wrote: Murray Chass does not recommend that the Red Sox hire Bobby V.: http://www.murraychass.com/?p=4056 'Cuz he doesn't like him, pretty much. OK. I'd love if BV got the Sox job. I could like them again.

Gwreck Nov 27 2011 10:50 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

I dislike giving credit to Murray Chass, but Marty Noble had many similar complaints about Valentine when discussing him at the Faith and Fear Tuesday event a year or two ago.

metsguyinmichigan Nov 27 2011 11:24 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Chass seems pretty bitter. After the second loss, which dropped the Mets into a wild-card tie and sent them on to a season-ending five-game losing streak, McRae told reporters, “They don’t like us. Their coaches don’t like Bobby. Not only don’t they like us, they don’t like our manager and it gives them extra incentive. They want to kick our butts. Everybody has added incentive to beat us, and we’re still in the position we’re in.” Earlier in the season, McRae said, “He’s not a typical manager. He does weird and goofy things. . . . I’m not saying he’s right or wrong. He’s a different type manager and it’s our job to adjust to what he’s doing.” This is not damning to me. I didn't think managing was a popularity contest with the rest of the league. Valentine kept his job and was at it later that season when he targeted Todd Hundley, the Mets’ catcher, for his sarcastic criticism, singling him out to reporters as someone who needed to get more sleep, meaning he was out running around and drinking. Todd had problems, If I recall. "His reputation also includes the way he deals with reporters. A reporter who covered him in Texas told me a long time ago that Valentine has a divide-and-conquer strategy by which he pits the writers against each other and divides them into two groups: those who will do his bidding and those who won’t. Guess which group gets Bobby’s leaks?" This is the way many sources work. Welcome to reporting, Murray. They are Bobby’s Boys, and they will write anything to make Valentine happy because he makes them happy by leaking stories to them. Valentine’s interview with the Red Sox provided Bobby’s Boys with their latest opportunity to extol his virtues. Translation: It's not my fault that my competition repeatedly scooped me. While it’s a fact that Valentine managed the Mets to two consecutive wild-card berths in 1999 and 2000 and the World Series in 2000, it’s also a fact that in 14 years with the Rangers and the Mets he never managed a team that finished in first place. You kind of don't need to manage a team into first place with the wild card, which Valentine did twice. I think more people were impressed that he got that particular Mets team into the World Series.

Edgy MD Nov 27 2011 11:25 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

That's a complete hatchet job --- right down to the pointless parenthetical swipe at Bill James --- from a guy with a strange propensity for holding grudges.

Ashie62 Nov 27 2011 02:49 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Edgy DC wrote: Although we've never seen his ballroom moves. Or Rose Bowl Parade cheerleading..

Frayed Knot Nov 27 2011 03:05 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

From Chass's piece * [veteran manager]: “I’d burn out my bullpen in a minute to kick his ass.” -- and if Bobby's team is my team I'd invite the opposing skipper to do so every time cuz we'll come out better in the long run * In the same conversation, one of the managers remarked, “Valentine’s team has to be 10 games better than anyone else because everyone hates him and plays harder to beat him.” -- Does anyone really actually believe this crap? ... not that sentences like this aren't said but that (by implication) teams/managers actually give up winnable games by not always trying all that hard against managers they do like and only try really hard when there's something personal on the line (and to the tune of 10 games no less)?

Ceetar Nov 27 2011 04:16 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

From Chass's piece * [veteran manager]: “I’d burn out my bullpen in a minute to kick his ass.” -- and if Bobby's team is my team I'd invite the opposing skipper to do so every time cuz we'll come out better in the long run * In the same conversation, one of the managers remarked, “Valentine’s team has to be 10 games better than anyone else because everyone hates him and plays harder to beat him.” -- Does anyone really actually believe this crap? ... not that sentences like this aren't said but that (by implication) teams/managers actually give up winnable games by not always trying all that hard against managers they do like and only try really hard when there's something personal on the line (and to the tune of 10 games no less)? sure..I mean, Tony LaRussa's teams in '06 and '11 had to be so much better than everyone else right?

metirish Nov 27 2011 04:47 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Then Lucchino asked me a question. “What do you think of him?” he asked. Ha! and we all know what Chass thinks of Valentine, it is well documented.

metirish Nov 27 2011 05:39 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Why is Chass highlighted on here?

Frayed Knot Nov 27 2011 06:46 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

From Ian Browne at MLB.com -- Barring a major surprise, either Bobby Valentine or Gene Lamont will be named Terry Francona's successor at a press conference sometime within the next few days. Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington plans on having his first manager in place before baseball's Winter Meetings, which start on Dec. 5 in Dallas.

G-Fafif Nov 28 2011 05:49 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Coincidence that Chass is linked here in that I was discussing him yesterday with someone who used to work with him, who said, in so many words, that he was...well, me using that unattributed conversation to take a shot at Chass would be akin to Chass cherrypicking stray recollections, many of them unattributed, to take shots at Valentine. Chass regularly obsesses on Valentine's not finishing first, ignores that his teams always improve when he arrives and did make the playoffs in consecutive years (never mind the championship in Japan). With five teams in each league's playoffs now, I like how he says there's a "greater emphasis on finishing first." The greater emphasis is going to be on getting one of those playoff spots, I would think, and if you can finish first, all the better. But either way, the Braves passing the Mets in 1999 and 2000 is not the sole predictor of success for the Red Sox not having to face a one-game elimination round in 2012. As Gwreck noted, Noble, who spent a lot more time around the manager than Chass did, was not a fan of Valentine's, though when he explained it to our little group in 2010, he was specific in his criticisms and sounded eminently reasonable about it. But at no point did Noble question Valentine's baseball acumen. "Bobby's boys" might carry water for Valentine. His detractors might shoot down his candidacy. But Chass seems in this for the grudge and the slights, perceived, imagined or genuine. And since when is it a manager's job to make sure other teams like him? This may or may not have anything to do with anything, but the Terry Collins we got in 2011 seemed worlds removed from the Terry Collins we heard about from Anaheim circa 1999. Some people (particularly those looking to get back to the top of their profession) take stock and evolve as necessary. I get the impression that's what Collins did. I have no idea if that applies to Valentine, but for someone who transformed three different franchises on two different continents, I wouldn't put any learning past him.

themetfairy Nov 28 2011 06:18 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

IIRC, Noble went as far to say that Bobby could get 3-5 extra wins out of a group of players than other managers could, which could be the difference between making and not making the playoffs. As Greg said, Noble didn't let his personal dislike of the man cloud his judgment of Bobby's abilities as a manager.

metirish Nov 28 2011 07:06 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Dan Shaughnessy in the Globe says it's got to be V, which will further rile the faithful. Valentine is the right Sox fit By Dan Shaughnessy Globe Columnist / November 22, 2011 E-mail|Print|Reprints|Comments (153) Text size – + He is married to the daughter of Ralph Branca, who threw the gopher ball to Bobby Thomson at the Polo Grounds in 1951. His first roommate in professional baseball was Bill Buckner, when the two were drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1968. He managed the Texas Rangers, who were once managed by Ted Williams. He also managed the New York Mets, who inflicted immeasurable pain to our region in 1986. Is there any doubt that Bobby Valentine is destined to be the next manager of the Boston Red Sox? No. There can be no doubt. This is a man directly connected to the two most infamous moments in baseball’s 20th century. And that is only one of the reasons that he is the perfect fit to be the 45th manager in the storied history of the Boston Red Sox. The Sox trotted out Bobby V at 5:30 yesterday afternoon for one of those goofy media auditions (be mindful that it infuriates the Patriots when the Sox grab attention on any NFL game day). Following in the footsteps of the immortal Pete Mackanin, Dale Sveum, Sandy Alomar Jr., Torey Lovullo, and Gene Lamont, Valentine met with the once-carnivorous Boston press corps after spending the day answering questions for the deep thinkers in the Sox baseball operations department. It appears that Bobby V passed the audition with baseball ops. He certainly pleased the media. The only question that remains is . . . How did Valentine do with the soccer-lovin’, NASCAR-obsessed, sports-radio-listenin’, low-talkin’, absentee owner of the Red Sox? Hope Bobby V didn’t go all Sveum and spit tobacco juice into a Styrofoam cup during lunch. Valentine has to get the job. There’s still a possibility the Sox could trade for John Farrell. Lamont is coming to town today for a second interview, and Lovullo is technically still in the mix. Sox general manager Ben Cherington has backed off his Thanksgiving deadline and it’s likely the Sox will name their new manager early next week, comfortably in advance of the annual baseball meetings. But it’s got to be Valentine. Like Larry Lucchino, Bobby V knows he is the smartest guy in the room. He has managed more than 2,000 big league games, taken a team to the World Series, and been named manager of the year. He was an absolute god when he managed in Japan (think of Jerry Lewis in France), but he opted to leave the perfect, safe gig overseas so that he would have one more chance at the big leagues. This is that chance. Valentine desperately wants this job. If we can quote Don Henley we can say that Bobby V would walk on his lips through busted glass to get to the corner office at Fenway Park.Continued... Here’s Valentine’s answer when he was asked why he would want to manage the Red Sox: “Well other than they have one of the best teams in baseball, one of the best organizations in baseball, one of the greatest venues in baseball, with a great winning tradition over the last 10 years, there’s really no reason that I want to be here.’’ He will be 62 next season. He was raised and still lives in Stamford, Conn., where he was an athletic legend, great at baseball and football. He was supposed to replace O.J. Simpson in the backfield at Southern Cal, but he opted for baseball. Valentine’s fast track to major league stardom was derailed when his leg exploded while playing for the Angels in 1973. He sees everything that happens on a baseball field. He did a spectacular job turning the Rangers around in 1985 and took an underwhelming Mets team to the World Series in 2000. He believes in the Warren Zevon theme of “I’ll Sleep When I’m Dead.’’ New York City folks who endured the tragedy of the fallen towers in 2001 will tell you that Bobby Valentine was the real deal when it came to caring for victims after the attacks. For once in his life, he was all action, little talk. Not bad for a guy who’s often been portrayed as a fraud and a poser. Bobby V got off a couple of whoppers yesterday. He claimed not to remember much about his experience managing the ’02 Mets. This would be like Terry Francona, circa 2020, saying he can’t quite remember his last year managing the Red Sox. The ’02 Mets made the 2011 Red Sox look like the noble gang from “Remember the Titans.’’ Stop the search. Bobby Valentine is the guy. Enough with the charade. Enough with the soft parade of Mackanins, Sveums, and Alomars. Cherington needs to pass Go, collect $200, and name Bobby Valentine manager of the 2012 Red Sox. He’s smart and qualified. He is destiny’s child in Boston baseball’s nuclear winter of 2011-12. Dan Shaughnessy can be reached at dshaughnessy@globe.com. © Copyright 2011 Globe Newspaper Company.

G-Fafif Nov 28 2011 07:51 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

He is married to the daughter of Ralph Branca, who threw the gopher ball to Bobby Thomson at the Polo Grounds in 1951. His first roommate in professional baseball was Bill Buckner, when the two were drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1968. He managed the Texas Rangers, who were once managed by Ted Williams. He also managed the New York Mets, who inflicted immeasurable pain to our region in 1986. Impressive how he got there. "Think Shaughnessy, think...the Branca thing kinda works if you don't stare too hard at it, the Buckner thing definitely works, the Mets thing goes with the Buckner thing...how can I fit the Rangers in with this? Hmmm...TED WILLIAMS! OMG, Danny boy, you did it again!"

Fman99 Nov 28 2011 10:48 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

G-Fafif wrote: Coincidence that Chass is linked here in that I was discussing him yesterday with someone who used to work with him, who said, in so many words, that he was...well, me using that unattributed conversation to take a shot at Chass would be akin to Chass cherrypicking stray recollections, many of them unattributed, to take shots at Valentine. Chass regularly obsesses on Valentine's not finishing first, ignores that his teams always improve when he arrives and did make the playoffs in consecutive years (never mind the championship in Japan). With five teams in each league's playoffs now, I like how he says there's a "greater emphasis on finishing first." The greater emphasis is going to be on getting one of those playoff spots, I would think, and if you can finish first, all the better. But either way, the Braves passing the Mets in 1999 and 2000 is not the sole predictor of success for the Red Sox not having to face a one-game elimination round in 2012. As Gwreck noted, Noble, who spent a lot more time around the manager than Chass did, was not a fan of Valentine's, though when he explained it to our little group in 2010, he was specific in his criticisms and sounded eminently reasonable about it. But at no point did Noble question Valentine's baseball acumen. "Bobby's boys" might carry water for Valentine. His detractors might shoot down his candidacy. But Chass seems in this for the grudge and the slights, perceived, imagined or genuine. And since when is it a manager's job to make sure other teams like him? This may or may not have anything to do with anything, but the Terry Collins we got in 2011 seemed worlds removed from the Terry Collins we heard about from Anaheim circa 1999. Some people (particularly those looking to get back to the top of their profession) take stock and evolve as necessary. I get the impression that's what Collins did. I have no idea if that applies to Valentine, but for someone who transformed three different franchises on two different continents, I wouldn't put any learning past him. So what you're saying is, Chass is a wanker, right? It's OK, you can say it.

Edgy MD Nov 28 2011 12:32 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

G-Fafif wrote: He is married to the daughter of Ralph Branca, who threw the gopher ball to Bobby Thomson at the Polo Grounds in 1951. His first roommate in professional baseball was Bill Buckner, when the two were drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1968. He managed the Texas Rangers, who were once managed by Ted Williams. He also managed the New York Mets, who inflicted immeasurable pain to our region in 1986. Impressive how he got there. "Think Shaughnessy, think...the Branca thing kinda works if you don't stare too hard at it, the Buckner thing definitely works, the Mets thing goes with the Buckner thing...how can I fit the Rangers in with this? Hmmm...TED WILLIAMS! OMG, Danny boy, you did it again!" This is the post that I was thinking of writing, but was late to the party. The Yankees should hire Art Howe, because he managed the Mets who were once managed by Casey Stengel and another time managed by Joe Torre. It's FATE!

G-Fafif Nov 29 2011 05:28 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Bobby Valentine, who was traded to the Mets three days after Tom Seaver retired Art Howe in his final game as a Met for six more years...and Howe managed the Mets the year the A's played the Red Sox in the playoffs...and Seaver was on the Red Sox the year they lost to the Mets in the World Series...and Ted Williams once managed the Rangers...anyway, he's going to be the Red Sox' next manager, sources indicate.

Mets – Willets Point Nov 29 2011 08:22 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Sweet Valentine, bah, bah, bah!

Valadius Nov 29 2011 08:41 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

I still can't understand why it took so long for him to land another managerial gig.

Edgy MD Nov 29 2011 08:53 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Well, the Japan job was nothing to sneeze at. I hope he knows who Scutaro is this time.

bmfc1 Nov 30 2011 03:32 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

The last two managers who lead the Mets to the World Series are employed by other teams while the Mets are managed by Terry "Bunty" Collins. I have manager-envy.

Ashie62 Nov 30 2011 05:30 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Heres to hoping Bobby V can make things miserable for the MFY's.

Ceetar Nov 30 2011 05:39 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

bmfc1 wrote: The last two managers who lead the Mets to the World Series are employed by other teams while the Mets are managed by Terry "Bunty" Collins. I have manager-envy. yes, but the next one's still employed by the Mets.

metirish Nov 30 2011 07:01 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

WOW, the comments coming form the fans up there is mind boggling, a lot are fixated on the Chass column and the stupid "how many days in first place", others are convinced that Valentine is nothing more than a bridge to Madden or Farrell. It would seem that the trend is negative on V.

Ceetar Nov 30 2011 07:09 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

metirish wrote: WOW, the comments coming form the fans up there is mind boggling, a lot are fixated on the Chass column and the stupid "how many days in first place", others are convinced that Valentine is nothing more than a bridge to Madden or Farrell. It would seem that the trend is negative on V. I believe through 2007-2008 the Mets spent the most time in first place. I think the 2011 Red Sox as well.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2011 08:00 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

How could Chass have so much juice? He's writing a blog on a personal website, for cripe's sake.

metirish Nov 30 2011 08:06 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Edgy DC wrote: How could Chass have so much juice? He's writing a blog on a personal website, for cripe's sake. I bet his blog got a big jump in hits the last week though.

metirish Nov 30 2011 08:29 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Finn not a fan , geez http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_a ... lenti.html

G-Fafif Nov 30 2011 08:33 AM segment for split

How could Chass have so much juice? He's writing a blog on a personal website, for cripe's sake. Heavens to Betsy, Murray Chass does not write a blog. He says so like a lunatic right here: This is a site for baseball columns, not for baseball blogs. The proprietor of the site is not a fan of blogs. He made that abundantly clear on a radio show with Charley Steiner when Steiner asked him what he thought of blogs and he replied, “I hate blogs.” And when you've said it to Charley Steiner, you've said it all.

Vic Sage Nov 30 2011 08:34 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

they don't deserve Bobby. Idiots.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2011 12:04 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

metirish wrote: Finn not a fan , geez http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_a ... lenti.html That's some awful work organized kind of awfully.

metirish Nov 30 2011 12:42 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Edgy DC wrote: Finn not a fan , geez http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_a ... lenti.html That's some awful work organized kind of awfully. yes, it's awful Is Bobby V. the right choice? 2. If he manages a team or two that ends its season with a collage of champagne celebrations and duck boat rides, the answer will have to be in the affirmative a few lines later Again: Is he the right choice? I doubt even Lucchino and Cherington are certain of that now, particularly the latter, who knew what he was getting into when he accepted the Red Sox' GM job but probably didn't expect to be overruled publicly on his first major decision. Jesus, I suppose if he wins he's the right choice.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2011 01:34 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Number two seemed like a re-write of number one.

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2011 03:08 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Just awaiting the details & confirmation on the Bobby BoSox deal - and on the details of Ventura's contract. Just five new managers this off-season: two "retreads" (BV & Ozzie), two "newbies" Ventura & Matheny), plus Sveum who is really a newbie although had previously managed briefly as an interim. TEAM 2011 Mgr STATUS 2012 Mgr RED SOX Terry Francona - since 2004 Option not picked up =#FF0000]Bobby Valentine - Details TBA YANX Joe Girardi - since 2008 Signed thru 2013 Same ORIOLES Buck Showalter - since 2010 Signed thru 2013 Same RAYS Joe Maddon - Since 2006 Signed thru 2012 Same BLUE JAYS John Farrell - Hired Oct ‘10 Signed thru 2013 Same TIGERS Jim Leyland - Since 2006 Signed thru 2012 Same WHITE SOX Ozzie Guillen - since 2004 Contract terminated via mutual consent Robin Ventura - "multi-year" contract TWINS Ron Gardenhire - Since 2002 Signed thru 2013 Same ROYALS Ned Yost - Since May ‘10 Signed thru 2012 Same INDIANS Manny Acta - Since 2010 Signed thru 2012 + 2013 option Same RANGERS Ron Washington - Since 2007 Signed thru 2012 Same MARINERS Eric Wedge - first season Signed thru 2013 Same A’s Bob Melvin - hired June ‘11 Signed thru 2014 Same ANGELS Mike Scioscia - since 2000 Signed thru 2018 Same METS Terry Collins - first season Option picked up thru 2013 Same BRAVES Fredi Gonzalez - first season Signed thru 2013 Same MARLINS Jack McKeon - since 6/20/11 Not re-hired for 2012 Ozzie Guillen - signed thru 2015 NATIONALS Davey Johnson - took over 6/26/11 Signed w/org but not as manager Option picked up for 2012 PHILLIES Charlie Manual - since 2005 Signed thru 2013 Same CUBS Mike Quadde - since 2010 Signed thru 1012 - Fired =#FF0000]Dale Sveum - Signed thru 2014 BREWERS Ron Roenicke - first season Signed thru 2012 + ‘13 option Same PIRATES Clint Hurdle - first season Signed thru 2013 Same CARDINALS Tony LaRussa - since 1996 Retired =#FF0000]Mike Matheny - 2 yrs + 2014 option REDS Dusty Baker - since 2008 Signed thru 2012 Same ASTROS Brad Mills - since 2010 Signed thru 2012 w/option for ‘13 Same DODGERS Don Mattingly - first season Signed thru 2013 Same DIAMONDBACKS Kirk Gibson - hired Aug ‘10 Signed thru 2012 + ‘13 option New deal thru '14 w/options for '15 & '16 GIANTS Bruce Bochy - since 2007 Signed thru 2012 Extended thru 2013 PADRES Bud Black - since 2007 Signed thru 2013 + options for ‘14 & ‘15 Same ROCKIES Jim Tracy - since May ‘09 Signed thru 2013 Same

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2011 03:30 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Edgy DC wrote: Finn not a fan , geez http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_a ... lenti.html That's some awful work organized kind of awfully. The thing about that piece is that he's reluctant to come right out and say that this will turn out to be a bad choice probably because he, like the non-believer who still attends church regularly, wants to hedge his bets just in case he's wrong. Instead he seems like one of the many who claims to know what Bobby is like by selected anecdotes he has read about from afar so, absent any real evidence of his unfitness, he'll throw those out so as to stake his claim early on. Glass & mustache reference? - Check. Compare an off-field marijuana story with recent in-dugout beer problems? - Hey, it kinda fits so I'll run with it. Smartest guy in the room stories? - Always easy to use plus has the added bonus of not having to prove it.

metirish Dec 01 2011 01:42 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

A valentine for Bobby http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... d-sox-mets

Mets – Willets Point Dec 01 2011 01:53 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England.

metirish Dec 01 2011 01:55 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England. Ha! must say I am surprised that the Boston fan it seems would rather a paper cut out like Lamont(insert any baseball lifer) over Valentine. With their passion for the game I thought they would latch on to Bobby.

Vic Sage Dec 01 2011 01:56 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England. welcome back, WP.

Mets – Willets Point Dec 01 2011 02:02 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Vic Sage wrote: Mets – Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England. welcome back, WP. Thanks. But it's MWP now.

metirish Dec 01 2011 03:57 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

themetfairy Dec 01 2011 04:27 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

My Dinner With Bobby

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 01 2011 06:29 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Mets – Willets Point wrote: Well, at least there are sensible baseball writers in England if not in New England. welcome back, WP. Thanks. But it's MWP now. Do you have, like additional parts now? (But, yeah, seconded.)

MFS62 Dec 02 2011 07:48 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

My Dinner With Bobby Did you serve wraps? He invented them, y'know. http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/20 ... -invention Later

Mets – Willets Point Dec 02 2011 11:06 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Sports coverage from The Nation. As far as I know, Valentine's position in Stamford was mostly ceremonial so I'll take some of this with a grain of salt. Also, Republicans are lousy public servants but great baseball managers.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 11:33 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Even if the job was ceremonial, nothing is merely ceremonial when it comes to Bobby V., as my avatar photo suggests. Meanwhile, Keith Olberman absolutely creams Valentiine, focusing on one play from the 2000 World Series. Was the call questionable? I distinctly recall questioning it myself at the time. Was it "the dumbest World Series managerial move since Casey Stengel completely messed up his 1960 pitching rotation"? Get a grip, Boston Market Boy. A more level-headed look comes from Matthew Callan at Amazin' Avenue.

metirish Dec 02 2011 11:39 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Not surprised with Keith Olberman, last night on twitter he seemed to be siding with Chass, like they are buddies or something.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 11:47 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Sawx fans shouldn't be linking to these columns as examples of why their team went wrong, but to celebrate that the move has provoked a wave in the ocean of YLDBs. Let 'em hate.

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2011 11:55 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Bobby gets a two-year deal with the Sawx plus club options for 2014 & 2015 (making the odds of a Joe Maddon hiring next season not as easy as some Hub fans would like to believe). Also has chosen to wear #25 for his "friend and old roommate" Tony Conigliaro (sez the NYTimes) although it's not clear exactly where their careers crossed paths. TEAM 2011 Mgr STATUS 2012 Mgr RED SOX Terry Francona - since 2004 Option not picked up =#FF0000]Bobby Valentine - Signed thru 2013 + club options for '14 & '15 YANX Joe Girardi - since 2008 Signed thru 2013 Same ORIOLES Buck Showalter - since 2010 Signed thru 2013 Same RAYS Joe Maddon - Since 2006 Signed thru 2012 Same BLUE JAYS John Farrell - Hired Oct ‘10 Signed thru 2013 Same TIGERS Jim Leyland - Since 2006 Signed thru 2012 Same WHITE SOX Ozzie Guillen - since 2004 Contract terminated via mutual consent Robin Ventura - "multi-year" contract TWINS Ron Gardenhire - Since 2002 Signed thru 2013 Same ROYALS Ned Yost - Since May ‘10 Signed thru 2012 Same INDIANS Manny Acta - Since 2010 Signed thru 2012 + 2013 option Same RANGERS Ron Washington - Since 2007 Signed thru 2012 Same MARINERS Eric Wedge - first season Signed thru 2013 Same A’s Bob Melvin - hired June ‘11 Signed thru 2014 Same ANGELS Mike Scioscia - since 2000 Signed thru 2018 Same METS Terry Collins - first season Option picked up thru 2013 Same BRAVES Fredi Gonzalez - first season Signed thru 2013 Same MARLINS Jack McKeon - since 6/20/11 Not re-hired for 2012 Ozzie Guillen - signed thru 2015 NATIONALS Davey Johnson - took over 6/26/11 Signed w/org but not as manager Option picked up for 2012 PHILLIES Charlie Manual - since 2005 Signed thru 2013 Same CUBS Mike Quadde - since 2010 Signed thru 1012 - Fired =#FF0000]Dale Sveum - Signed thru 2014 BREWERS Ron Roenicke - first season Signed thru 2012 + ‘13 option Same PIRATES Clint Hurdle - first season Signed thru 2013 Same CARDINALS Tony LaRussa - since 1996 Retired =#FF0000]Mike Matheny - 2 yrs + 2014 option REDS Dusty Baker - since 2008 Signed thru 2012 Same ASTROS Brad Mills - since 2010 Signed thru 2012 w/option for ‘13 Same DODGERS Don Mattingly - first season Signed thru 2013 Same DIAMONDBACKS Kirk Gibson - hired Aug ‘10 Signed thru 2012 + ‘13 option New deal thru '14 w/options for '15 & '16 GIANTS Bruce Bochy - since 2007 Signed thru 2012 Extended thru 2013 PADRES Bud Black - since 2007 Signed thru 2013 + options for ‘14 & ‘15 Same ROCKIES Jim Tracy - since May ‘09 Signed thru 2013 Same

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 12:03 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Frayed Knot wrote: Also has chosen to wear #25 for his "friend and old roommate" Tony Conigliaro (sez the NYTimes) although it's not clear exactly where their careers crossed paths. Apparently during an abortive comeback with the '76 Pads.

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2011 12:23 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 02 2011 12:37 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Also has chosen to wear #25 for his "friend and old roommate" Tony Conigliaro (sez the NYTimes) although it's not clear exactly where their careers crossed paths. Apparently during an abortive comeback with the '76 Pads. Probably a ST deal because Tony C isn't listed as playing in '76 In fact, he had almost no minor league time at all. Dude played one season at Class A as an 18 y/o (in Wellsville, NY?? in 1963) and was in Fenway the next year hitting .290 w/45 XBHs He continued sailing along (minus that whole missed season and a half thing) knocking 160 HRs by age 25 before his career ended abruptly in the middle of 1971 following an off-season trade to the Angels. He doesn't re-surface again until four years later back with the BoSox, splitting time between Boston & Pawtucket which represented his only other official minor league service. He was 30 at that point and he never played again. 15 years after that he was dead.

metirish Dec 02 2011 12:24 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

There's speculation that Buckner might join the staff , he and Bobby are close and have been for years.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 02 2011 12:29 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Edgy DC wrote: Meanwhile, Keith Olberman absolutely creams Valentiine, focusing on one play from the 2000 World Series. Was the call questionable? I distinctly recall questioning it myself at the time. Was it "the dumbest World Series managerial move since Casey Stengel completely messed up his 1960 pitching rotation"? Get a grip, Boston Market Boy. Didn't Abbott tag Rivera in the Timo game the night before?

Edgy MD Dec 02 2011 12:35 PM

So he did.

Mets – Willets Point Dec 02 2011 12:38 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Olberman seems to overlook that Valentine managed the team of back-ups and scrubs into the World Series in the first place.

HahnSolo Dec 02 2011 12:48 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Edgy DC wrote: So he did. I was thinking that as I read it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2011 01:28 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Meanwhile, Keith Olberman absolutely creams Valentiine, focusing on one play from the 2000 World Series. Was the call questionable? I distinctly recall questioning it myself at the time. Was it "the dumbest World Series managerial move since Casey Stengel completely messed up his 1960 pitching rotation"? Get a grip, Boston Market Boy. Didn't Abbott tag Rivera in the Timo game the night before? Geez, Olbermann is a tool sometimes.

themetfairy Dec 02 2011 01:35 PM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

My Dinner With Bobby Did you serve wraps? He invented them, y'know. http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/20 ... -invention Later I know. We discussed it in the interview.

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 06:21 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

My real disappointment that day in Valentine wasn't so much his failure of tactics, but rather his failure in gamesmanship --- a talent that had come to appear to be an asset but on this night he was outgamed by a troll like Clemens. Clemens had to be ejected, but the umps were too stunned and confused to throw the switch instantly and after that were in recovery mode. Valentine needed to find some way --- with six umps to appeal to and Dean of Discipline Frank Robinson in the box seats near the (I think) first base dugout --- to get Clemens (justifiably) tossed. Whether that meant going apeshit crazy, whether that meant taking your argument individually to each of the six umps, forcing them to eventually confab and make the decision together, whether that meant an unprecedented appeal to Robinson, whether that meant pulling his team off the field and risking a forfeit, he needed to press the point to the brink. Valentine's priority was keeping Piazza in the game and (sadly and vainly, I think) keeping himself in. And in such, he backed down from Clemens' brinkmanship. Clemens was eventually fined well beyond a level of folks who actually are thrown out of games, so all of baseball officialdom knew they were wrong. Bobby needed to force them to acknowledge it then and there. Bobby wasn't willing to sacrifice himself. He wasn't willing to sacrifice NLCS MVP Mike Hampton, and so Clemens had him over a barrel and so was rewarded for his villainy. And so, yeah, I was disappointed in Valentine, but I'm not sure which manager would have done better. The real failure there was the umps, and maybe Robinson not making the bold stroke of superseding them and ordering an ejection.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 03 2011 06:34 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

All true. That entire series is still eating at my soul.

MFS62 Dec 03 2011 06:40 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

Edgy DC wrote: The real failure there was the umps, and maybe Robinson not making the bold stroke of superseding them and ordering an ejection. As I remember Robby, he would not have let it pass if he had been the player involved. Later

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2011 06:44 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

So when Olberman says that Abbott "had never faced Rivera or even seen his cutter" it looks like he meant other than the double he smacked off him 24 hours earlier. And even that is above and beyond the idiotic notion that this non-PH move somehow qualifies as one of the worst decisions in history and therefore taints the career of Valentine for all time to come. Yeah, that's some mighty fine research and perspective there ace!

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 06:46 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Meanwhile, Keith Olberman absolutely creams Valentiine, focusing on one play from the 2000 World Series. Was the call questionable? I distinctly recall questioning it myself at the time. Was it "the dumbest World Series managerial move since Casey Stengel completely messed up his 1960 pitching rotation"? Get a grip, Boston Market Boy. Didn't Abbott tag Rivera in the Timo game the night before? Geez, Olbermann is a tool sometimes. I adore Olbermann on many levels, but that article reeks of Valentine at some point big-leaguing KO and KO never forgetting a slight. One of Keith's things when he talks about sports is alluding to "my good friend," and one of his "good friends" in the game is Terry Francona, so maybe there's that, too. Can't fault Payton for homering, but with the bases cleared, there was no longer a rally in progress. It was Rivera for one out with a one-run lead. I wasn't loaded with confidence over Abbott (my thinking was "he got his base hit last night") and wondered what Matt Franco was doing on the roster if you weren't going to use him there, but "dumbest" move in 40 WS years? That's Chassian right there.

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 07:03 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

And while I don't expect much more than a partisan sports column from a partisan TV host, KO is a SABR member and should know better. Instead he starts with the conclusion and looks only at the facts that will get him there. We have enough such sportswriting in the world.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2011 07:06 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

One more crack at Olberman (whom I happen to adore on absolutely no levels but that's besides the point here) " ... when Jay Payton walloped a massive three-run bomb off Mo and all of a sudden the Yankees’ insurmountable 6-0 lead was now a 6-5 heart-stopper" Am I off here in remembering JayPay's HR as a typical YSII special, aka: one which snuck over the RF fence some 300-plus-very-few feet away making KO's above description simply another example of him playing fast and loose with the facts in this story?

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 07:10 AM Re: GM - Managerial Changes/ Speculation

One more crack at Olberman (whom I happen to adore on absolutely no levels but that's besides the point here) " ... when Jay Payton walloped a massive three-run bomb off Mo and all of a sudden the Yankees’ insurmountable 6-0 lead was now a 6-5 heart-stopper" Am I off here in remembering JayPay's HR as a typical YSII special, aka: one which snuck over the RF fence some 300-plus-very-few feet away making KO's above description simply another example of him playing fast and loose with the facts in this story? Not walloped except that "walloped" is a fun word. Massive only in that it made the score close. Bomb...no, not really.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 03 2011 07:48 AM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Between Olbermann's article and what it's forced us to rehash, this has been the WORST RECOLLECTION IN THE WORLD.

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 09:02 AM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Between Olbermann's article and what it's forced us to rehash, this has been the WORST RECOLLECTION IN THE WORLD. Now that's what I call a Special Comment.

Edgy MD Dec 08 2011 09:07 PM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Mets – Willets Point Dec 08 2011 09:18 PM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Spotted grazing on Boston Common.

G-Fafif Feb 11 2012 04:46 AM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

DVR Alert (or just watch): Monday night, 9 o'clock, Bobby V with Bob Costas on MLB Network. Good old days to be discussed in addition to whatever our former skipper is doing now.

metirish Feb 13 2012 05:39 PM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

G-Fafif wrote: DVR Alert (or just watch): Monday night, 9 o'clock, Bobby V with Bob Costas on MLB Network. Good old days to be discussed in addition to whatever our former skipper is doing now. @MLBNetwork Close Valentine on Rickey Henderson not running balls out: "The third time he did that in a Mets uniform was the last time" #Studio42 at 9pE the third time in the third voice?

metirish Feb 13 2012 08:40 PM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Love Valentine but for fucks sake Costas spent half the show trying to put down that moneyball nonsense, had to laugh at how he kept looking for Valentine's agreement in his view of moneyball.

metirish Feb 14 2012 06:07 AM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Noting shocking in this interview but............Costas pressed Bobby on the likelihood that Red Sox Front Office types and ownership like to make "suggestions" to the manager on his line up card....."that happened with the Rangers, it happened with the Mets, Steve Phillips would do it......even Fred Wilpon did it a few times, it's nothing new and for the most part I took on those suggestions, hey how about hinting this guy 6 or 4, sometimes I was looking for answers and they can come from anywhere".....paraphrasing there but that was the gist....it's nothing new Bob.

Mets – Willets Point Feb 14 2012 07:48 AM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Happy Bobby Valentine's Day!

G-Fafif Feb 14 2012 08:07 AM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Hearing Bobby say, "It's not the team with the best players, it's the team that plays best," got me all warm and tingly. Vintage Bobby-ing. And his immediate reaction to losing Game Six in 1999 was the same as mine, except he threw himself onto the floor of his office bathroom and I settled for the living room carpet. His retelling of the Rickey-Olerud "I used to play with a guy who wore a helmet" story, even as it's acknowledged as apocryphal, was all messed up. He had it taking place in Mariner Spring Traning, which would be fine, except they were never in Mariner Spring Training together. Like Keith, Bobby's timelines get a little screwed up...but guys like them are busy being guys like them. It's guys like me who don't do anything worth talking about except fact-check.

Vic Sage Feb 14 2012 08:40 AM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

"It's not the team with the best players, it's the team that plays best," yes, the race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.

G-Fafif Feb 17 2012 12:32 PM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Bill Pennington of the Times on how Bobby V, out of baseball as a player, bounced back into the game -- partly by turning down George Steinbrenner. Valentine reconnected with professional baseball in the early 1980s, he said, completely by accident. Attending another dinner function, this one the annual New York baseball writers’ affair, Valentine ran into a San Diego Padres executive who asked him to tutor minor league infielders. “I was going to be a roving instructor for $10,000,” Valentine said. “I would make eight or nine trips a year. If I had a traditional job, maybe I couldn’t have done that. But with the restaurant I could get away. So I did it.” A year later, he was at the Stamford muscular dystrophy dinner again and ran into Lou Gorman, then a Mets vice president for player personnel. Gorman, like everyone else, asked Valentine what he was doing with himself. Valentine talked about the restaurant and his role with the Padres. “I told Lou that I liked working with the minor leaguers but that the Padres’ farm teams were kind of far away from Stamford,” Valentine said. Gorman told Valentine he could have the same job with the Mets, and he would travel for the most part in the eastern United States. So Valentine became a part-time Mets employee. In 1983, the Dodgers had an opening on their coaching staff. Dodgers Manager Tommy Lasorda, who had been Valentine’s minor league manager in the Pacific Coast League, told his bosses to offer Valentine the job. As a courtesy, the Dodgers called the Mets to ask permission to speak to Valentine, and Gorman took the call. Laughing last week as he told the story, Valentine said: “And Lou says that I can’t be a coach for the Padres’ big club because I’m going to coach in New York for the Mets. Actually, it had never been discussed, but that’s how I ended up on the Mets staff the next season. “I’m telling you, it’s all luck.”

Edgy MD Feb 17 2012 01:00 PM Re: The Bobby Backlash (split from GM-Man. Changes/ Speculat

Valentine or Pennington or the Times editor or I (as reader) seem to have blown it in the next-to-last paragraph, saying "Padres" when he seems to mean "Dodgers."