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Will Gil?

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 04:33 PM

I'm a sucker, I know, but I'm thinking it's a really good chance for Gil Hodges to make the Hall of Fame right now. He's being reviewed with a field of 10 candidates by a 16-member committee, also including Ron Santo, Allie Reynolds, Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant, Buzzie Bavasi, Charlie Finley, Ken Boyer, Minnie Minoso, and Tony Oliva. Upside: [list][*]All, I think, have their arguments, except for Allie Reynolds, who couldn't hold Jerry Koosman's glove, and are among the most serious candidacies when historians review who has been overlooked. But I think history would suggest that Hodges, Santo, and Oliva would top that list. [/*:m] [*]I think Hodges and Santo, for different reasons, have a history of being liked by everyone. But Hodges was liked as a leader, and Santo as a character, so that might help him. [/*:m] [*]Nolan Ryan has joined Tom Seaver in actively campaigning for Hodges. Seaver and Ryan were overwhelmingly elected, suggesting electors have their respect, and their opinions mean something. [/*:m] [*]I don't know who's on that committee, but I know Tommy Lasorda is one of them, and he's endorsed Hodges in the past, actually played with the guy, and loves to pimp the Dodger blue. [/*:m] [*]Nobody's come as close without getting in as Hodges, getting 60% of the BBWAA vote thrice and 50% 11 times. [/*:m] [*]Folks seem to have come around to the understanding of the veteran ballot instruction to consider candidates' playing careers together with their coaching, managerial, executive, scouting and/or umpiring careers. [/*:m] [*]Probably the last chance to vote him in while Joan is on the planet.[/*:m][/list:u] Downside: [list][*]Lasorda can be annoying, and his support may get marginalized under the notion that he's pimping the Dodger blue. [/*:m] [*]Seaver has endorsed Hodges strongly, but never strategically, like giving a dozen interviews in the weeks leading up to vote. Get on the stump, Tom. [/*:m] [*]Sixteen old dudes is a big group to bully into a consensus.[/*:m][/list:u] Announcement coming Monday.

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 04:36 PM Re: Will Gil?

Golden Era Committee Members. Here we go: Players and Managers from the Hall: Hank Aaron, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton, and Billy Williams. Major League Executives: Paul Beeston (lifetime with Blue Jays, currently their CEO), Bill DeWitt (managing partner and chairman of the Orioles, exec in Bush Administration, son of former Browns owner), Roland Hemond (Diamondbacks, Angels, White Sox, Orioles), Gene Michael(Yankees, Yankees, Yankees --- but also played for the Tigers, Pirates, and Dodgers, and managed the Cubs), and Al Rosen (career Indian, but executive for the Yankees, Astros, and Giants). Media Members: Dick Kaegel (Royals writer, cancer survivor), Jack O'Connell (covered the Mets in the 80s with the News and the Record and the Yankees with the Hartford Courant in the 90s), and Dave Van Dyck (Chicago Trib, has supported Jack Morris over Bert Blyleven, for whatever that's worth).

G-Fafif Dec 03 2011 05:26 PM Re: Will Gil?

Gil regularly finished in the upper tier of BBWAA voting and usually ahead (sometimes by miles) of a passel of players who eventually got in. Almost a historical anomaly in terms of voting trends that he never rode that momentum into the Hall. Kind of got stampeded by first-ballot types after a while (back when it was unusual to have first-ballot inductees) and got lost in the shuffle. Tough to be top of mind when you've been gone 40 years, but let's hope he is with those on the committee.

MFS62 Dec 03 2011 07:17 PM Re: Will Gil?

Adding Dick Allen would make that a fun group to discuss. Later

batmagadanleadoff Dec 03 2011 07:23 PM Re: Will Gil?

Former NY Mets Nolan Ryan, Bud Harrelson and Ed Kranepool lobby for Gil Hodges for the Hall of Fame Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z1fWq6mopW

Edgy MD Dec 03 2011 07:48 PM Re: Will Gil?

Golden Era Committee Members. Here we go: Players and Managers from the Hall: Hank Aaron, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton, and Billy Williams. Major League Executives: Paul Beeston (lifetime with Blue Jays, currently their CEO), Bill DeWitt (managing partner and chairman of the Orioles, exec in Bush Administration, son of former Browns owner), Roland Hemond (Diamondbacks, Angels, White Sox, Orioles), Gene Michael(Yankees, Yankees, Yankees --- but also played for the Tigers, Pirates, and Dodgers, and managed the Cubs), and Al Rosen (career Indian, but executive for the Yankees, Astros, and Giants). Media Members: Dick Kaegel (Royals writer, cancer survivor), Jack O'Connell (covered the Mets in the 80s with the News and the Record and the Yankees with the Hartford Courant in the 90s), and Dave Van Dyck (Chicago Trib, has supported Jack Morris over Bert Blyleven, for whatever that's worth). That's a tough group, I think, with a mixture of loyalties. I think Kiner and Lasorda are solid votes. Maybe O'Connell absorbed enough during his tenure in New York. Hopefully Brooks Robinson came away from the 1969 series impressed, and Don Sutton can be buttonholed by his old manager. It's still seven more votes to get to 12. Williams is probably going to put a higher priority on a longtime teammate like Santo, even though the 1960s Cubs already have three Hallers and never won anything. Maybe they'll trade support. Will Dominican Dandy Marichal have any stake in Cuban Comet Minnie Minoso or El Tiante? Lone Latino on the committee, he. Will Yankee execs like Rosen and Michael throw support to the likes of Kaat and/or Reynolds? Stay tuned.

sharpie Dec 05 2011 09:08 AM Re: Will Gil?

Santo in. 12 votes needed. Gil got 9.

bmfc1 Dec 05 2011 09:10 AM Re: Will Gil?

Santo became a lovable, sympathetic figure while Gil simply died young. Gil should have made it long ago.

Edgy MD Dec 05 2011 09:19 AM Re: Will Gil?

BOOOOOOO! In its way, more disappointing to mye than Reyes. Maybe I'm crazy.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2011 11:26 AM Re: Will Gil?

BOOOOOOO! In its way, more disappointing to mye than Reyes. Maybe I'm crazy. Well if it's any help, I think you are. The problem with this whole Gil debate is that it has taken on the same tenor as the ones for 'the Scooter' years ago - and by that I mean that there's really no debate at all. Instead, folks just start with the premise that his qualifications are an already-settled matter and therefore he's being screwed out of what everyone knows is an obvious no-brainer. So then the next logical step involves how one gord about getting him in: who's in charge of campaigning?, is there anyway to stack the committee?, is this the year the dunderheads wake up?, without ever stopping to consider that maybe, just maybe mind you, he's not in for perfectly legitimate reasons. I realize this puts me out of step with just about every Dodger/Met fan born since about 1920 and with all the NYC-area "news" people who are supposed to report the news without their cheerleader costumes on, but I'm totally indifferent to whether or not Gil ever gets in and would prefer to fall on the side of 'NOT' rather than justify another borderline candidate simply because he's our borderline candidate.

Edgy MD Dec 05 2011 11:35 AM Re: Will Gil?

I'm one with the grossly biased cranks, but you are the lone detached seer? Please don't put that on me.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2011 12:08 PM Re: Will Gil?

All I'm putting on you specifically is the part about being more disappointed with the news about Gil than about Jose. On that topic I couldn't possibly disagree more. The parts about framing how the debate (or lack thereof) has taken place are more general in nature but, I believe, quite accurate. Every year this topic comes up and every year (as it did with Rizzuto) the part about whether or not he actually deserves induction are skipped entirely. The only difference with Gil is that, with each short vote, there aren't legions yelling about the result could only be explained by either anti-Yankee bias or anti-Italian bias.

metsguyinmichigan Dec 05 2011 12:13 PM Re: Will Gil?

The Santo vote is disgraceful. Not because he didn't deserve it -- he should have been voted in years ago. But to wait until a few months after the guy dies is just wrong. The honor should have been given to him years ago while he could have enjoyed it. I'm sure this is a bittersweet day for his family.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 05 2011 12:22 PM Re: Will Gil?

It's not the Hall of His Family's Feelings, it's the Hall of Fame.

Edgy MD Dec 05 2011 12:26 PM Re: Will Gil?

I've visited the Hall of His Family's Feelings. In Seattle. Amazing place. Not cheap, though.

G-Fafif Dec 05 2011 12:31 PM Re: Will Gil?

Madden in the Sunday Snooze joined FK in declining to drink the alleged Gil-Aid. Gil Hodges will not be elected to the Hall of Fame. Much as his many local supporters continue to decry his omission from the Hall, the fact is Hodges was no better than the fifth best player on his own team, had less than 2,000 hits in 17-plus years in the big leagues and never led the league in any offensive category even once. Plus, it’s highly unlikely the committee will elect two former Dodgers ? and the late longtime Dodger GM, Buzzie Bavasi, whose teams won eight pennants and four World Series in Brooklyn and L.A., may be the most worthy of any of the candidates on the ballot.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2011 02:40 PM Re: Will Gil?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's not the Hall of His Family's Feelings, it's the Hall of Fame. Also why citing Gil's aging widow is poor ammunition for induction.

Edgy MD Dec 05 2011 02:49 PM Re: Will Gil?

Which I didn't do. I listed it as a reason why it might happen in this go-round, not why it should happen. I'd be happy to discuss why it should happen.

Vic Sage Dec 05 2011 03:34 PM Re: Will Gil?

Madden's opposition to Gil makes me rethink my own. Cuz if he's agin' it, i should be for it. certainly his reasoning is suspect: the fact is Hodges was no better than the fifth best player on his own team, which, even it it were true, still wouldn't disqualify him from the HOF, when you consider some HOF-laden teams like the mid70s Reds. It's not Gil's fault he played with Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Pee Wee Reese and Duke Snider. had less than 2,000 hits in 17-plus years in the big leagues which might be relevant, except it omits the fact that he averaged 30hr/90r/100rbi/280ba with a near .900 OPS and multiple gold gloves during the 12 years when he was a full-time player. Which i'll certainly concede may not be enough to put him into the hOF, but its not nothing, and its not summed up by saying he "had less than 2,000 hits in 17-plus years in the big leagues", nor by the following: and never led the league in any offensive category even once. which is probably true of many HOFers. The "Black Ink" test isn't the only criteria. And he was in the top 10 in HR for a decade. which, again, ain't chopped liver. Madden's comment also misleads by leaving out the fact that Gil lead in many DEFENSIVE categories, on more than one occasion, and even lead in "games played" a few times. But most glaringly, he also fails to mention the fact that the Vet Committee could also consider his managing career which, while brief, took a last place team to the championship. I don't know if all this adds up to a HOFer. If Tino Martinez finished his career with his home town Tampa Bay team, then became their manager and was responsible for their turnaround as a franchise, would he be HOFer, based on both factors? I don't know. And i don't know about Hodges, but the argument against Gil certainly isn't put forth convincingly by Madden, with his usual muddleheaded inarticulate craptacular journalism.

metsguyinmichigan Dec 05 2011 04:20 PM Re: Will Gil?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's not the Hall of His Family's Feelings, it's the Hall of Fame. Did Santo's stats improve over the last year? Or was he deserving all these years, and they just didn't put him in?

Met Hunter Dec 05 2011 05:03 PM Re: Will Gil?

The hypocrisy of the whole process is the bar being raised for some and not others. There are loads of undeserving HOFers going back as far as WWII. Tinkers, Evers and Chance were elected because of a poem. Rick Ferrell, a catcher with less career home runs than his brother Wes, a pitcher. Was he someone's drinking buddy? Rizzuto, Mazeroski, Maranville, Reese. Gil wasn't as good as Reese? The list goes on and on. Red Schoendienst had an average career and went in as a player. Don't tell me the overall package of winning as a player, manager, and longtime coach, didn't get Red elected. Fred Lindstrom, a guy that never received as much as 5% of the vote by writers. But Gil, a great power hitter in his day, when power hitting actualy required power, falls short? It's all a crock of shit.The Hall of Opinions.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2011 06:27 PM Re: Will Gil?

The problem was for years that the Vet's committee was a small group that could easily influenced (one way or the other) by one or two strong opinions, a set-up which spawned the 'buddy voting' Hunter mentions and even the intentionally stacked crew that created the Rizzuto travesty. To combat that they changed things up to give the living HOFers a voice in a much larger panel, But when that group didn't elect enough people for some tastes (something which shouldn't automatically be taken at face value as a sign of failure) they re-re-vamped the committee and are now essentially back to a small select group like the one they started with.

Ashie62 Dec 05 2011 07:29 PM Re: Will Gil?

MFS62 wrote: Adding Dick Allen would make that a fun group to discuss. Later You mean "Richie"?

Edgy MD Dec 05 2011 08:19 PM Re: Will Gil?

I don't think the group needed Allen to be worthy of discussion. But he was certainly better than Allie Reynolds. Dozens of others on the outside were also.

MFS62 Dec 05 2011 09:53 PM Re: Will Gil?

Vic Sage wrote: and never led the league in any offensive category even once. which is probably true of many HOFers. One who comes to mind is Yogi Berra. Later

Edgy MD Dec 05 2011 10:08 PM Re: Will Gil?

Yeah, Vic's post is the one I'd've made if I didn't have a new job and stuff.

Edgy MD Jul 14 2012 03:00 PM Re: Will Gil?

From Ryne Duren's New York Times obituary: Duren remembered how in August 1965, pitching for the Washington Senators, he was hit hard by the Yankees in relief while pitching with a hangover, had some drinks afterward, then left his car on the way home, climbed a bridge and started shouting. The police brought Manager Gil Hodges to the scene to talk him down. A week later, the Senators released Duren, and he was finished in baseball. Gil Hodges talks suicidal drunks off bridges, and got two bridges named after him.

Vic Sage Jul 14 2012 08:46 PM Re: Will Gil?

The legend of Gil Hodges is starting to take on Bill Brasky proportions. In fact, like Brasky, i heard that they used Gil's foreskin as a tarp at Ebbets Field rain outs.

Edgy MD Jul 14 2012 09:09 PM Re: Will Gil?

Maybe, but Duren's autobiography isn't two drunk salesmen pissing at the bar, alcoholic though he was. Must be something to it.

TheOldMole Jul 15 2012 09:21 AM Re: Will Gil?

It's not a Hall of Fame without Gil Hodges in it.