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Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Finer...)

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 17 2011 08:40 PM Split Frag

Add the 'Cuse to the growing list of big time college sports programs whose assistant coaches like to buttfuck young boys. Jocks. What will they think of next?

Ashie62 Nov 17 2011 09:16 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

soupcan wrote: Yeah...I'm a little excited. So is Bernie Fine...

Centerfield Nov 18 2011 08:13 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

I realize full well that this is my team and I may not be as objective as I might think I am, but to me this situation is clearly different than the Penn State situation. First off, these charges are old, were investigated, and no evidence could be found to corroborate the claims. They were brought by one individual, who provided four names who would support his story, and all four denied any truth to the allegations. No allegations were made that there was any ongoing abuse. No one else came out and reported any prior abuse. To me, this was the right way to handle the situation. Now, in the wake of the Penn State scandal, the accuser's stepbrother comes out and offers a fresh new set of allegations. The University has suspended Fine and is conducting an investigation. I think they are handling the situation as they should. I can't help be skeptical about these new charges. They are from a relative of the original accuser, and they didn't surface back in 2005 during the initial investigation. Why now? You wonder about the timing. Also, in cases such as this, if there is a guilty party, it's not usually limited to isolated incidents. There is usually a track record and a number of victims. I guess we will have to see whether more victims come out, and what the investigation turns up. If Bernie Fine is innocent of these charges, it's a shame his name will forever be tarnished. But if he's guilty of even one inappropriate incident, his ass should go to jail. Immediately. But in light of the recent events at Penn State, based on what I read so far, I'm happy to say I can find no fault in how the administration handled the allegations.

Methead Nov 18 2011 09:05 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Pretty much, CF. Not sure I can add much to that... not without looking like I've got my Orange blinders on.

soupcan Nov 18 2011 11:57 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

I'm on the same page as CF. This is the letter alumni were sent this morning from the Chancellor: Dear Syracuse University Alumni, Last night, we were contacted by an ESPN television reporter regarding allegations dating back to the 1980’s and 1990’s that Associate Head Men’s Basketball Coach Bernie Fine had engaged in inappropriate behavior with a minor, now 39. Following the terrible news that came out of Penn State in the last several weeks, this is clearly distressing to all of us in the Syracuse University community. The news is already being covered widely by the media. I want to tell you what we know and what we are doing about it. First, as has been announced, Bernie Fine has been placed on administrative leave pending a new investigation by the Syracuse Police Department. He has vehemently denied the allegations and should be accorded a fair opportunity to defend himself against these accusations. As we have communicated publicly in response to media inquiries, in 2005, Syracuse University was contacted by an adult male who asserted that he had reported allegations in 2005 of abuse in the 1980’s and 1990’s to the police. That same individual told us that the Syracuse City Police had declined to pursue the matter because the statute of limitations had expired. On hearing of the allegations, the University immediately launched its own comprehensive investigation through its legal counsel. The nearly four-month long investigation included a number of interviews with people the individual said would support his claims. All of those identified by him denied any knowledge of wrongful conduct by the associate coach. At the end of the investigation, as we were unable to find any corroboration of the allegations, the case was closed. Had any evidence or corroboration of earlier allegations surfaced —even if the Police had declined to pursue the matter —we would have acted. As of last night, we became aware that the Syracuse Police have determined to open an investigation, and we will cooperate to the fullest extent with their review of the matter. Let me be clear. We know that many question whether or not a university in today’s world can shine a harsh light on its athletics programs. We are aware that many wonder if university administrations are willing to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing that may disrupt a successful sports program. I can assure you I am not, and my fellow administrators are not. We hold everyone in our community to high standards and we don’t tolerate illegal, abusive or unethical behavior —no matter who you are. As you know, this week, I affirmed Syracuse University’s steadfast belief that all of us have the responsibility, individually and collectively, to ensure that Syracuse University remains a safe place for every campus community member and everyone with whom we interact on a daily basis on campus or in the community as part of our learning, scholarship, or work. We do not tolerate abuse. The dilemma in any situation like this, of course, is that—without corroborating facts, witnesses or confessions —one must avoid an unfair rush to judgment. We have all seen terrible injustices done to the innocent accused of heinous crimes. And we’ve all seen situations where the guilty avoid justice. At this time, all we really know is that a terrible tragedy is unfolding for both the accuser and the accused. I want you to know that we will do everything in our power to find the truth, and —if and when we do find it—to let you know what we have found. Sincerely, Nancy Cantor

metirish Nov 18 2011 12:06 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

That's fine but can CF make a pick in the rock thread?

Methead Nov 18 2011 01:03 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Boeheim has been incredibly vocal about Bernie's innocence. He better be right... he's basically staking his entire career and legacy on it. Big risk, no?

Frayed Knot Nov 18 2011 01:37 PM Split Frag 2

I suppose the good news here is that this situation has already been investigated. On the other hand, an organization claiming to have essentially investigated itself frequently and not surprisingly comes up with the answer that they went in looking for: the one that finds themselves to not be at fault. That said, this situation, despite the obvious similarities, doesn't sound from the beginning the same as the one at PSU, and that one not only started worse but is getting uglier by the minute.

Ashie62 Nov 18 2011 04:14 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Lou Reed "Coney Island "Baby" " I always wanted to play football for the coach. " [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPHbbvQEA1E

Ashie62 Nov 27 2011 12:48 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Conversation of accuser with Fine's wife. It appears Bernie may be very guilty [url]http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/33523037

Ashie62 Nov 27 2011 02:55 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 27 2011 10:47 PM

Accuser slept with Fine's wife?

Methead Nov 27 2011 03:16 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Frayed Knot Nov 27 2011 06:56 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Fine Fired

Ashie62 Nov 27 2011 10:47 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Will Boeheim "retire."

soupcan Nov 28 2011 08:22 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

I'm not 100% sure why there have been calls for Boeheim's firing. If its because he was the head of the program and all this occured under his watch then okay, I understand that but not sure I agree with it. If Boeheim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did not have any knowledge of these abuses then why can't he stay? If it comes out that there was a cover-up or that Boeheim did in fact have knowledge of these things then of course he's gone. Immediately. The one thing that Boeheim did was to call the accusers liars and say that they were financially motivated when this first broke. But if he truly believed in Fine, whom he's worked with for 35 years and been friends with for 50, is that inexcusable? There has since been evidence provided that caused Boeheim to apologize and retract those statements. Not enough?

metirish Nov 28 2011 08:27 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

The one thing that Boeheim did was to call the accusers liars and say that they were financially motivated when this first broke. considering what Fine allegedly did to these kids I think it's not excusable , look at Fine and then look at a 12 year boy, it's awful. Boeheim no doubt is truly shocked and horrified but he should never had said such a thing.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 28 2011 09:03 AM

soupcan wrote: The one thing that Boeheim did was to call the accusers liars and say that they were financially motivated when this first broke. But if he truly believed in Fine, whom he's worked with for 35 years and been friends with for 50, is that inexcusable? There has since been evidence provided that caused Boeheim to apologize and retract those statements. Not enough? Nope. I hope he walks the plank.

soupcan Nov 28 2011 09:59 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

But here's the thing - Boeheim's opinions were based on the investigation done in 2005 in which no evidence was found and the accusations deemed without merit. In retrospect what he said was bad but if you believe him, he had zero knowledge of the abuse and his friend had been cleared of these same exact charges from this same exact guy 6 years ago. Nobody had heard the supposedly 9 year-old tape before yesterday. Of course I'm biased, but how can you fire the guy based on just that statement considering where it was coming from and why he made it? He also said something to the effect that until there is further evidence this is what I believe.... Well, he got the evidence, retracted his statement and apologized for it. He's really got to pay for that with his job and reputation for defending what he thought was a innocent guy?

seawolf17 Nov 28 2011 10:06 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

I just think JCL's going all Adam Rubin for Boeheim's job.

Fman99 Nov 28 2011 10:15 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Seriously. Somebody get Tony Bernazard on the phone and tell him to take his shirt off!

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 28 2011 10:39 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

That sounds ghey.

soupcan Nov 28 2011 02:20 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Mike Waters, sportswriter for the Syracuse Post-Standard on WFAN with Francesa today thinks Boeheim should and will survive this.

Frayed Knot Nov 28 2011 02:43 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

soupcan wrote: But here's the thing - Boeheim's opinions were based on the investigation done in 2005 in which no evidence was found and the accusations deemed without merit. In retrospect what he said was bad but if you believe him, he had zero knowledge of the abuse and his friend had been cleared of these same exact charges from this same exact guy 6 years ago. The key words being "if you believe him". The problem with the PSU situation is that those in charge did know even though if anyone actually screwed up the guts to ask them about it they shirley would have said otherwise - and that when confronted with evidence or even rumors of evidence they chose to ignore and pretend, even if short of flat-out lying, in order to 'protect the brand' and/or the king. Paterno even went into his final day on the job offering to resign at the end of the year to "spare the university of having to worry about him". Doesn't work that way Joe, even for you, and IF Boeheim is guilty of similar knowledge and/or willful ignorance, because such ugliness tends to get in the way of upsetting his holy mission, then he deserves the same fate.

Centerfield Nov 28 2011 03:11 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Reaction from the accuser seems to suggest that Boeheim didn't know. When Boeheim made his statements last week, Davis responded along the lines of "How would he know what happens at Fine's house?". Which is better than "Of course, he knew, they all knew." You'd also think Boeheim wouldn't come out guns blazing if he had reason to know, or suspect, that Fine might be guilty. You would think that anyone who has been part of a coverup would have the sense of mind to issue guarded statements. Maybe I just want to believe that this man who I have been rooting for my whole life cannot possibly be involved in something his horrific. Awful situation any way you cut it.

Frayed Knot Nov 28 2011 04:58 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2011 07:56 AM

I am in no way pretending to know what Boeheim knew and when he knew it, nor do I have a dog in this fight (I care nothing about college sports at all). But a couple of things I do know and/or at least strongly suspect: - both the assumption and flat-out statements at the beginning of the PSU scandal was that none of this was going to touch (no pun intended) Joe Pa either. I'm sure they all thought things were so far in the rearview mirror that there's no way it would come back to bite them. - internal investigations, particularly in the smaller cities & towns that are usually home for top college programs, sometimes find exactly what they set out to find in the first place: that the program and coach are untainted by the crime(s). I realize that it was Syracuse City police (at least I think it is) who did the initial investigation which is at least an extra half-step removed as compared to what the on-campus force would be but, again with the PSU case, half the county execs in Centre County PA were somehow connected to the university and/or the charity involved and had all sorts of reasons not to want to rock the boat. The university if too big a part of the town and there's often a great 'don't bite the hand that feeds you' mentality that evolves over time. - there's a scene in 'The Caine Mutiny' when Fred McMurray's character tries to convince his fellow would-be mutineers that, even though it was originally his idea, the odds of them succeeding in taking control of the ship w/o being arrested later on because, in Fred's words, the captain of a ship at sea during wartime was the most autocratic dictator left on earth and therefore his word would be believed over all of them. No Fred, an entrenched, winning college coach at a big-time, money-making sport is the most autocratic dictator left on earth. Those guys have something approaching absolute power and tend to know everything that goes on with their programs ... until it's convenient to claim not to.

cooby Nov 28 2011 04:59 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

All child molestation scandels are bad. Please stop trying to compare them.

Methead Nov 28 2011 05:36 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

soupcan wrote: Nobody had heard the supposedly 9 year-old tape before yesterday. ESPN and the Post-Standard have had copies since 2003 but didn't say anything about it until now, which is insane by itself. I can't come up with a word to describe how I feel about all of this.

Ashie62 Nov 28 2011 06:45 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: soupcan wrote: The one thing that Boeheim did was to call the accusers liars and say that they were financially motivated when this first broke. But if he truly believed in Fine, whom he's worked with for 35 years and been friends with for 50, is that inexcusable? There has since been evidence provided that caused Boeheim to apologize and retract those statements. Not enough? Nope. I hope he walks the plank. He shoulda just kept his mouth shut. Has Boeheim lawyered up yet?

batmagadanleadoff Nov 28 2011 08:47 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

The Keystone Cops are out. The Feds are now all in on the Bernie Fine scandal. I suppose that one accuser's allegations of bad conduct in Pittsburgh creates the interstate contacts necessary for the US Attorney to assert itself. Also, the Secret Service is now assisting in the investigation, presumably because of its expertise in computer forensics. Time for a thread split? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/sport ... acuse.html

Edgy DC Nov 28 2011 08:49 PM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

One wrinkle is that the accuser seems (to my eyes) pretty unstable. Now, an interested party's observation would be that his seeming instability hurts his credibility. The alternative conclusion is that he's unstable because the abuse and exploitation he's suffered has sent him down a miserable path. And I guess it's really tough for investigators to make that call. But then there's that tape of that phone call. And any detached investigator should have heard enough there to arrest both coachie and wifey. I tend to suspend judgment in these situations. They've got juries for that. And I'll suspend judgment on Boheim, I guess. But that phone call. Whoo, boy.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 28 2011 09:00 PM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

"Nothing Could Be Worse" is a clever title for this counter-thread. But what about "Nothing Could Be Fine"?

soupcan Nov 29 2011 08:16 AM Re: SU Hoops 2011:Nothing Could be Finer than to be in Carol

Edgy DC wrote: But that phone call. Whoo, boy. Yup. Blew the doors off the whole thing.

soupcan Nov 30 2011 07:43 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

I'm hearing rumblings of a very large scandal encompassing the Syracuse police and the DA's office in terms of this being covered up years ago. Possibly both departments worked together to cover it up. Were major players in those offices involved in similar activities as Fine? It looks like the university may have just been caught up in a much larger web of something they were completey oblivious to. This has the possibility of getting much, much uglier

metirish Nov 30 2011 07:50 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

soupcan wrote: I'm hearing rumblings of a very large scandal encompassing the Syracuse police and the DA's office in terms of this being covered up years ago. Possibly both departments worked together to cover it up. Were major players in those offices involved in similar activities as Fine? It looks like the university may have just been caught up in a much larger web of something they were completey oblivious to. This has the possibility of getting much, much uglier Awful , but would not be at all surprising.

soupcan Nov 30 2011 08:17 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

metirish wrote: Awful , but would not be at all surprising. And that's the sad thing right? Because it wouldn't be surprising.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 30 2011 08:21 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

I just found out about all this this morning, and don't really know the details, but... holy crap. How many more college sports/child molestation scandals are going to come out of the woodwork?

metirish Nov 30 2011 08:21 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

soupcan wrote: metirish wrote: Awful , but would not be at all surprising. And that's the sad thing right? Because it wouldn't be surprising. nope, as noted elsewhere comparing scandals isn't good but in Ireland the various governments , cops , organizations were complicit in covering up abuse for years.

soupcan Nov 30 2011 08:49 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

metirish wrote: nope, as noted elsewhere comparing scandals isn't good but in Ireland the various governments , cops , organizations were complicit in covering up abuse for years. To what end? To allow it to continue or to simply not want the fallout from uncovering it? Both?

metirish Nov 30 2011 09:36 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

soupcan wrote: nope, as noted elsewhere comparing scandals isn't good but in Ireland the various governments , cops , organizations were complicit in covering up abuse for years. To what end? To allow it to continue or to simply not want the fallout from uncovering it? Both? both, and it's ongoing, in fact today's Irish Times has the latest from various commissions set up. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing32.html I should add that the Vatican was in on the cover ups too and have pulled their man in Ireland because of a recent critical report.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2011 09:49 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

soupcan wrote: I'm hearing rumblings of a very large scandal encompassing the Syracuse police and the DA's office in terms of this being covered up years ago. Possibly both departments worked together to cover it up. Were major players in those offices involved in similar activities as Fine? It looks like the university may have just been caught up in a much larger web of something they were completey oblivious to. This has the possibility of getting much, much uglier I haven't read this yet, but I read yesterday that the Syracuse Chief of Police in 2002 was a former SU basketball player.

soupcan Nov 30 2011 11:13 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

batmagadanleadoff wrote: soupcan wrote: I'm hearing rumblings of a very large scandal encompassing the Syracuse police and the DA's office in terms of this being covered up years ago. Possibly both departments worked together to cover it up. Were major players in those offices involved in similar activities as Fine? It looks like the university may have just been caught up in a much larger web of something they were completey oblivious to. This has the possibility of getting much, much uglier I haven't read this yet, but I read yesterday that the Syracuse Chief of Police in 2002 was a former SU basketball player. Yes, but the rumor is that he and the DA may have had their own motivations in covering it up, which had nothing to do with the university or the basketball team.

soupcan Dec 01 2011 08:57 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

As if this scandal needed more salacious crap... Link Which Syracuse Basketball Players Had Sex With Laurie Fine? By A.J. Daulerio Nov 30, 2011 5:10 PM One of the stranger aspects of that taped phone conversation between former ball boy Bobby Davis and accused molester Bernie Fine's wife, Laurie, is the apparent revelation that Davis had a sexual relationship with Laurie. He's not the only one—and there might be a sex tape to prove it, a media source tells us. Another source says that at least one media outlet has evidence that Laurie, now 53, had sex with players on many of Jim Boeheim's squads. This was happening as early as 1982the 80's, a third source says. "It was a rite of passage for some to be with Bernie's wife," one of the sources says. As for the sex tape, it apparently features Laurie and another player, and it's been shopped around for years. If any of Laurie's conquests decide to go public, it would be very bad for the Fines—and it could very well mean the end of Boeheim's time at Syracuse. After all, this stuff would've happened on his watch. Those of you who'd like to share details about Laurie Fine's relationships can reach out to us at tips@deadspin.com with "Laurie Fine" in the subject line. Anonymity guaranteed. Unless your name is Derrick Coleman. No idea what the Derrick Coleman reference is all about unless its him in the video.

metirish Dec 01 2011 09:19 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

What a family

Edgy DC Dec 01 2011 04:53 PM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

I think the reference is a crack that a Derek Coleman story would be too hot to sit on.

Methead Dec 01 2011 05:46 PM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

He obviously made whoop-de-damn-do with Laurie Fine.

soupcan Dec 02 2011 06:22 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

Methead wrote: He obviously made whoop-de-damn-do with Laurie Fine. Golf clap!

HahnSolo Dec 02 2011 06:30 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

Methead wrote: He obviously made whoop-de-damn-do with Laurie Fine. BOC

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2011 06:54 AM Re: Nothing Could be Worse (split from Nothing Could be Fine

Wasn't Laurie Fine one of the Three Stooges?