Master Index of Archived Threads


Pagan traded to the Giants.

metirish Dec 06 2011 08:07 PM

"@Jon_Heyman: Pagan will go to giants for andres torres and ramon ramirez, confirmed (via @Joel_Sherman and @YankeesWFAN)"

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 06 2011 08:12 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Torres sucks ass. Ramirez doesn't look bad but he's a relief pitcher.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 06 2011 08:25 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

With an underrated 2010, crap 2011, and occasionally brilliant fill-in work before that, along with a great-in-the-corners/okay-in-center glove, Torres is Pagan plus 4-5 years, and with walks/pop instead of contact. Ramirez is an effective righty with a nice, moving fastball and bite-y slider, who's been effective everywhere he's gone in the last few years, but doesn't strike out as many guys as you might think with that stuff. Plenty of weak contact, though. He should be damn solid. Selling a LITTLE low, maybe... but not a terrible package to get if you don't believe in Pagan.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 06 2011 08:30 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

I said from the start that they'd come up with another solution after Pagan spent the year with his head up his ass. Doesn't seem like he liked Terry or vice versa, writers say he was surly and distracted all year.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 06 2011 08:39 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

How do the defensive metrics I don't trust like Torres? How big of an attraction with Pagan be to the gheys out there? I mean really.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 06 2011 08:40 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Oh, he's pretty. Those metrics do seem to pretty consistently like Torres (with fewer peaks and valleys in both Dewan Plus-Minus and UZR). Plus? Hits lefties and righties equally well, unlike a certain westward-headed, well-groomed clone of his.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 06 2011 08:54 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Excellent Giants blog Bay City Ball already has a quickie analysis up. (Nothing on Pagan's potential appeal to key demographics.) In essence, the Giants traded Andres Torres for a younger clone version with slightly worse defense. Though, that’s not to say it’s necessarily a bad trade. For one, this should move Melky Cabrera out of CF, which for Giants’ pitchers and their ERAs is a good, nay, fantastic thing. Losing Ramirez impacts the bullpen (third best projected reliever by ZiPS), but the Giants have been pretty decent at digging up relief arms over the past couple of years. I think, all things considered, the Giants would have been better just tendering (and keeping) Torres and Ramirez, but it was clear that the team wasn’t going to go in that direction, at least with Torres. This is probably the best option to not having Torres on the team. Damning with faint praise, maybe, but Pagan has been a pretty good player at times in his career and I really, really like the idea of moving (and I’m assuming, here) Cabrera out of CF.

Vic Sage Dec 06 2011 09:06 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

pagan for torres is sort of a sideways move but Ramirez will help, so overall, its an upgrade.

Frayed Knot Dec 06 2011 09:22 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

"@Jon_Heyman: Pagan will go to giants for andres torres and ramon ramirez, confirmed (via @Joel_Sherman and @YankeesWFAN)" Fuckin' Omar and his Latins ... oh wait! Ramirez is arb eligible and can be a FA at the end of 2012 I suspect Angel to Torres will be somewhat less than a sideways move especially seeing how you're getting several years older - but I suppose we can't ask for two upgrades in one trade.

Vic Sage Dec 06 2011 09:24 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

its a sideways move THIS year. After that, all bets are off.

Edgy MD Dec 06 2011 09:25 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Sure seemed to find his instincts in 2010. It's a mystery, I tells ya.

Ashie62 Dec 06 2011 09:43 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Hasn't Pagan had chronic ulcerative colitis for years. Maybe, just maybe..he wasn't feeling well last year? Who is the Mets CF now?

Nymr83 Dec 06 2011 09:46 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Looks like window dressing, Mets just shuffling the cards and hoping nobody notices they still arent dealing any...

Ashie62 Dec 06 2011 09:48 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Seriously, who starts at CF next. Not Torres, right?

Edgy MD Dec 06 2011 09:49 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Ashie62 wrote: Hasn't Pagan had chronic ulcerative colitis for years. Maybe, just maybe..he wasn't feeling well last year? Who is the Mets CF now? I think it's Torres until further notice. I can't speak to knowingly of the colitis. Though I've often heard tell of its warm smell.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 06 2011 09:50 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Presumably, it's Torres-- he's got more pop and walks more than Pagan, and plays better defense. (Cameron Light?)

Ashie62 Dec 06 2011 09:52 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Edgy DC wrote: Ashie62 wrote: Hasn't Pagan had chronic ulcerative colitis for years. Maybe, just maybe..he wasn't feeling well last year? Who is the Mets CF now? I think it's Torres until further notice. I can't speak to knowingly of the colitis. Though I've often heard tell of its warm smell. He does..it's like Lupus, joked about til you see it...

Edgy MD Dec 06 2011 10:02 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Oh, sorry. I certainly don't joke about colitis. Only about my ignorance.

Ashie62 Dec 06 2011 10:04 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

I guess Nieuwenhuis has a real shot.

attgig Dec 06 2011 10:34 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

seems like the brass soured on Pagan. It was his last year of arb, and he wasn't going to get another contract that was longer. I actually think Torres has a year of arb beyond Pagan. He could get nontendered pretty easily after next year, so either way it seems like a win in the CF department $ & contract wise. torres made $2.2mil in 2011 and pagan $3.5. so post arb $ wise, we're saving an extra mil or so. WAR-wise: Pagan: 2010 - 5.1 (pretty spectacular) 2011 - 0.2 (above average only because he gets extra points for being CF. otherwise below ave). Torres 2010 - 4.6 2011 - 1.3 one interesting note about the war... pagan's defensive war went from 2.2 to -1.7. His defense alone cost us 1.7 games this past year...

smg58 Dec 07 2011 04:13 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Torres has been a bit more consistent on defense, but his best doesn't match Pagan's best in that regard. Torres had an excellent 2010 with the bat, but he strikes out far too often and it's possible the league simply figured out how to pitch to him. I'm not expecting much. Ramirez is the best of the three arms the Mets brought in last night, though.

Edgy MD Dec 07 2011 05:29 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

You know, for 24 hours, Pagan was (according to Terry) our designated leadoff hitter. Now we're down to [list:ltnog4rb][*:ltnog4rb]Tejada (despite his youth and any reluctance the team may have in putting him even more in Reyes' shadow); or[/*:m:ltnog4rb] [*:ltnog4rb]Murphy (despite his general relative lack of speed, post-op gimpiness, and lack of demonstrated baserunning acumen); or[/*:m:ltnog4rb] [*:ltnog4rb]Torres (despite his questionable on-base skills).[/*:m:ltnog4rb][/list:u:ltnog4rb] Nieuewnhius may come fast.

metirish Dec 07 2011 05:55 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Giants fans now get to experience going from Beltran to Pagan.Didn't see it but Sandomir in the Times was tweeting like crazy last night about how SNY were going all out on these moves with wall to wall coverage.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 07 2011 06:53 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Edgy DC wrote: You know, for 24 hours, Pagan was (according to Terry) our designated leadoff hitter. Now we're down to [list][*]Tejada (despite his youth and any reluctance the team may have in putting him even more in Reyes' shadow); or[/*:m] [*]Murphy (despite his general relative lack of speed, post-op gimpiness, and lack of demonstrated baserunning acumen); or[/*:m] [*]Torres (despite his questionable on-base skills).[/*:m][/list:u] Nieuewnhius may come fast. Reyes' absence might expose Terry Collins as another in an uninterrupted line of wee ball cuntbunters. White Willie sez: the Mets would miss Pagan ... but said he ... would use the speedy [34 year old to be] Torres [lifetime OBP - .318; 2011 OBP - .312] in the leadoff spot, where Pagan would have played. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/sport ... llpen.html

Frayed Knot Dec 07 2011 07:09 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

metirish wrote: Didn't see it but Sandomir in the Times was tweeting like crazy last night about how SNY were going all out on these moves with wall to wall coverage. It's December, what else are they going to do? The only other story 'round these parts in mid-week is that every team up to and including the Gay Men's Chorus and the cast of 'The View' has reportedly been offered a spot in the Big East.

metirish Dec 07 2011 07:15 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Frayed Knot wrote: metirish wrote: Didn't see it but Sandomir in the Times was tweeting like crazy last night about how SNY were going all out on these moves with wall to wall coverage. It's December, what else are they going to do? The only other story 'round these parts in mid-week is that every team up to and including the Gay Men's Chorus and the cast of 'The View' has reportedly been offered a spot in the Big East. oh no doubt , they maybe got a tad excited though , again like you said what else are they going to do, moves are moves.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 07 2011 07:18 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Edgy DC wrote: Nieuewnhius may come fast. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he displaced Torres some time before the end of the season.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 07 2011 07:33 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

metirish wrote: metirish wrote: Didn't see it but Sandomir in the Times was tweeting like crazy last night about how SNY were going all out on these moves with wall to wall coverage. It's December, what else are they going to do? The only other story 'round these parts in mid-week is that every team up to and including the Gay Men's Chorus and the cast of 'The View' has reportedly been offered a spot in the Big East. oh no doubt , they maybe got a tad excited though , again like you said what else are they going to do, moves are moves. Some twitty fans were incredulous when they didn;t cut away from whatever programming they had to go live on the Reyes thing.

bmfc1 Dec 07 2011 08:16 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Andres Torres--he's a nice guy: http://blog.sfgate.com/thebigevent/2011 ... he-planet/

metirish Dec 07 2011 08:24 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

bmfc1 wrote: Andres Torres--he's a nice guy: http://blog.sfgate.com/thebigevent/2011 ... he-planet/ that's cool,seems like a good guy, he'll need that positive attitude here.

attgig Dec 07 2011 08:29 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

alrighty. we got the clubhouse leader, but we still need a leadoff hitter...

MFS62 Dec 07 2011 08:41 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

attgig wrote: alrighty. we got the clubhouse leader, but we still need a leadoff hitter... I think we have one in Tejada. He hit .289 as a 19 year old in AA and .280 in his last full year in AAA at age 20. Then he had a .360 OBP last year for the Mets. He's getting better and better. Who knows? Later

Lefty Specialist Dec 07 2011 09:35 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Ruben has no speed to speak of. He's not an ideal leadoff guy. Just like every Met catcher they trot out there is no Piazza, Tejada will always suffer the unfavorable comparison to Jose Reyes.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2011 11:03 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

An ideal leadoff guy gets on base. Speed and power are gravy. The notion of using Torres to bat leadoff, he of the sub .320 OBP, simply because he's fast is quintessential Terry Collins... i.e., stupid. Also stupid would be choosing not to bat Tejada leadoff simply because your trying to protect him from Reyes comparisons. The manager should put the guys in the best possible order to create the greatest number of runs per game. period. then he manages the issues that may arise from that. Not the other way round.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 07 2011 11:17 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Torres steals bases and walks enough to bump .260s BAs to the .340s, OBP-wise (although he does whiff a bunch). If you like your on-base-y types with speed, he's an option. Torres-Tejada might be an interesting 1-2 opener.

Edgy MD Dec 07 2011 11:30 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Enjoy bunting much, Ruben?

attgig Dec 07 2011 12:24 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Torres steals bases and walks enough to bump .260s BAs to the .340s, OBP-wise (although he does whiff a bunch). If you like your on-base-y types with speed, he's an option. Torres-Tejada might be an interesting 1-2 opener. if we're talkinga bout 2010, yes. last year's obp was down at 312. not so good. I'm guessing he gets the nod to be the leadoff guy here, but I'm afraid that his obp will be closer to 312 than 340. either way, it's a far cry from the 350-380 's that reyes gave us pretty consistently.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 07 2011 12:40 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Reyes has never topped .358 in a season, and has a lifetime .341 OBP. Torres missed a ton of time-- and played a ton of the time he did play-- with an Achilles strain/calf bruises last year which seemed to affect his driving the ball; he walked just as much as he has throughout his career, but made LOTS more weak contact (career low LD%, career high GB%, career low-- by a ton-- HR/FB%).

attgig Dec 07 2011 12:45 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Reyes has never topped .358 in a season, and has a lifetime .341 OBP. Torres missed a ton of time-- and played a ton of the time he did play-- with an Achilles strain/calf bruises last year which seemed to affect his driving the ball; he walked just as much as he has throughout his career, but made LOTS more weak contact (career low LD%, career high GB%, career low-- by a ton-- HR/FB%). except for last year. but that said, he's gone now, and i shouldn't compare the new kid in town to reyes. if last year was indeed a fluke (never saw those stats before. thanks for pointing those out), and he can get us 340, I'd be more than happy.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2011 12:58 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Torres steals bases and walks enough to bump .260s BAs to the .340s, OBP-wise (although he does whiff a bunch). If you like your on-base-y types with speed, he's an option. He's got a career .318 OPS, over the course of 1400+ ABs, with 3 teams, over 7 years. Yes, he did peak at .343 OB with the Giants 2 years ago, but now, at age 34, even that meager number will likely a stretch. Not only did Tejada put up a .360 ob% last year, his lack of power (certainly less than Torres) would make him the better candidate to bat 1st, with Torres (a switch-hitter to boot) batting behind him or lower in the order, where his power could be more useful than hitting behind the 8-9 hitters. ultimately, i think lineup construction makes a less than significant difference in overall run production, beyond revealing whatever the manager's thinking is in these areas.

Ashie62 Dec 07 2011 01:16 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Ashie62 wrote: I guess Nieuwenhuis has a real shot. Yes he does

Ashie62 Dec 07 2011 01:18 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

I liked Tejada 2 years ago and still do. He is eager and aggressive with good baseball sense and a degree of cockiness that may work to his benefit.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 07 2011 01:21 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Ashie62 wrote: Ashie62 wrote: I guess Nieuwenhuis has a real shot. Yes he does It's nice to see that Ashie agrees with himself.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 07 2011 01:21 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Ashie62 wrote: Ashie62 wrote: I guess Nieuwenhuis has a real shot. Yes he does It's nice to see that Ashie agrees with himself. Yes, I think so too.

Frayed Knot Dec 07 2011 01:39 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Good shot to be a ML player at some point this year? - Yes. Would have been better still had he not missed the last few months of last season but whatyagonnado. Still some question as to whether he's got the goods to be a true CF though.

Ashie62 Dec 07 2011 01:46 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: Ashie62 wrote: Ashie62 wrote: I guess Nieuwenhuis has a real shot. Yes he does It's nice to see that Ashie agrees with himself. Yes, I think so too. As do I.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2011 03:34 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

as yet another LH bat, Capt Kirk will be competing with Baxter and F-mart for backup OFer duty in the spring. The winner goes north. But we still need a RH bat in the OF; preferably one the can play CF, unless Kirk is the LH Ofer (in which case, a corner RH OFer would be ok). what about bringing back Scott Hairston? He wasn't too bad. a veteran OFer with RH pop and CF ability.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2011 09:57 AM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Supposedly there's a PtBNL or cash going to the Giants in this trade as well.

Ashie62 Dec 09 2011 08:45 PM Re: Pagan traded to the Giants.

Edgy DC wrote: Supposedly there's a PtBNL or cash going to the Giants in this trade as well. So now the Mets have cash?