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Resist. Resist. Resist.

Edgy MD Mar 15 2012 10:12 PM

Verducci suggests the NL DH is inevitable. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... index.html Somehow, he didn't mention Jeter's name once.

Ceetar Mar 15 2012 10:25 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

I didn't make it through the whole thing (it's late) I stopped when he seemed to claim the Red Sox got gipped. jipped? anyway, I see it as inevitable too, as much as I hate to see it and would accept any compromise to go to no DH. but with Interleague likely expanding, I don't see how NL teams aren't worn down to actually desire a DH by watching their teams trot out bench guys against the AL for ~15 games a year.

G-Fafif Mar 16 2012 05:26 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Has anybody ever heard a player, manager or coach say, "I prefer the American League style of play" or words to that effect? The hitting ability of pitchers is routinely dismissed and the notion of strategy -- the pitcher bunting or being pinch-hit for -- is scoffed at sometimes but nobody ever says, "I like the slower pace the DH inevitably brings to the game." I keep waiting to be won over by this supposed offensive marvel and four decades in, I still find it a detriment to enjoying baseball.

metirish Mar 16 2012 05:44 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Cheers Greg, I absolutely loath this idea and it seems to be driven in part by the writers this spring. One name , Mr. Koo.

bmfc1 Mar 16 2012 06:53 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

An argument the DH-ers keep making is "everybody else does it." So what? Just because it provides greater opportunities for someone to play in the minors, college or high school doesn't mean that Major League Baseball is better with it than without it. The Player's Union keeps pushing it because it's typically a highly paid position but if they really cared about their union members, they'd campaign for abandoning it in favor of a 26 man roster so that an additional player can be in the major leagues.

Ceetar Mar 16 2012 06:58 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

bmfc1 wrote: An argument the DH-ers keep making is "everybody else does it." So what? Just because it provides greater opportunities for someone to play in the minors, college or high school doesn't mean that Major League Baseball is better with it than without it. The Player's Union keeps pushing it because it's typically a highly paid position but if they really cared about their union members, they'd campaign for abandoning it in favor of a 26 man roster so that an additional player can be in the major leagues. well a 26th man wouldn't make as much as a bench player as the DH would. Everyone does _not_ do it, so I'm not really sure why they bring that up. Not all the minor leagues do it, not all the Japanese leagues do it.

Frayed Knot Mar 16 2012 07:26 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Selected Verducci quotes: - Traditionalists prefer the game without the DH because that's the way the game originated. -- No Tom, those who prefer the game without the DH do so because they think it's a better game that way! Hell, you even admit yourself that by the end of the article but labeling it early on as one preferred only by "traditionalists" implies that there's no thought process in the matter, only a knee-jerk reflex. - A.J. Burnett showed what can happen when an AL pitcher moves to the NL and has to hit. Burnett, traded from the Yankees to the Pirates last month, fouled a ball off his eye while batting last week and suffered an orbital fracture. The highest paid player on the Pirates is now out for two months. In 2008, then Yankees pitcher Chien-Ming Wang broke his foot while running the bases in an interleague game and hasn't been the same since. -- Yeah, because citing two examples which happened four years apart is clear proof of a trend here. If I can find two 2nd-basemen who got hurt sliding over that same span are we also going to ban that too? Also, the same Wang got hurt fielding yesterday so that must be on the list as well. And while we're at it, if Wang was never the same after hurting his foot by running -- BY RUNNING for God's sake! -- I guess it was that injury which caused his shoulder problems then because it was THAT which made him never the same, Tom, not his foot. I'm just doing this to help you Tom, because friends don't let friends quote Hank Steinbrenner. btw - The addition of a DH doesn't create an extra job, it merely changes the description of one of the already existing 750 jobs. I think a lot of this comes down to whoever replaces Bud as Commish. That's assuming he ever does actually leave of course seeing as how he just signed a two-year extension after announcing for about the 3rd or 4th time that the previous one was his last. I'm beginning to think the future owners are just going to continue to prop him up like some kind of Weekend at Bernie's situation. But the thing about Bud is that he's a consensus guy, he doesn't take on any issue (at least not publicly) until he knows he has the votes to run it through. But if it's controversial, if it's 50/50, if some faction is going to strongly object then he's not going to take a stand on it. He's like Clinton on the campaign trail for his second term, running on a platform of school uniforms and V-chips in your TV. Father Knows Best in Chief.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 16 2012 07:29 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Well, no, it's not another position, but it's a career extender for LOTS of older, well-paid folks, and if only for that reason alone, the union ain't turning back to the game as it oughta be. When you take into account the union facet of things AND the every-other-league-in-the-world thing, it really does seem like it is inevitable. I just hope I'm not around to see it.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 07:34 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

If the union position is that the DH means more $$ for players, it just doesn't hold up. Last year the typical American League team outspent it's typical National League counterpart, on average, $85,987,839 to $80,038,371. But that was with two market setting NL teams sitting out the offseason and under existential threats. The National League team actually had the higher median total salary, $86,250,012.50 to $85,707,319.

Ceetar Mar 16 2012 07:46 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

How many real DHs are there? Ones that are specifically DHs, paid as DHs, and you really really really wouldn't want to put them out in the field? Ortiz? Guerrero maybe, but I'd contend that he could, and would, just play a bad OF to keep his bat in the lineup if there was no DH. He'd also work out there and practice out there. He's a DH because it's an option, not a DH because he had no other option. You might be able to say the same about Ortiz, that he'd play a bad 1B even still if he'd been playing a bad 1B there for a years.

TransMonk Mar 16 2012 07:55 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Pujols and Fielder. Maybe not now, but 3-5 years from now for sure. Way play a bad first base if you don't have to?

Ceetar Mar 16 2012 08:14 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

TransMonk wrote: Pujols and Fielder. Maybe not now, but 3-5 years from now for sure. Way play a bad first base if you don't have to? Yeah, but would the Tigers have signed Fielder if they didn't have a DH spot?

TransMonk Mar 16 2012 08:17 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

If I was the Tigers GM, I wouldn't have...at least not for the same length and dollar amount.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 08:24 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Edgy DC wrote: If the union position is that the DH means more $$ for players, it just doesn't hold up.

Ceetar Mar 16 2012 08:26 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Just trying to think of it in terms of Good/Great baseball players that have had their career extended because of the DH. Because if the position gives the world 2-3 more years of Albert Pujols hitting, I could learn to tolerate it. But I think players like Pujols, if he remains that awesome, would be able to at least fake it in the field. Bonds wasn't exactly a good defender for the Giants. Edgy DC wrote: Edgy DC wrote: If the union position is that the DH means more $$ for players, it just doesn't hold up. generally not. Payrolls are payrolls, a high priced DH usually means they look for a bargain at another position.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 08:29 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Well, if a key to this happening is the alleged advocacy of the MLBPA, shouldn't the reality of the salary impact be a big deal?

MFS62 Mar 16 2012 08:45 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Ceetar wrote: Just trying to think of it in terms of Good/Great baseball players that have had their career extended because of the DH. Because if the position gives the world 2-3 more years of Albert Pujols hitting, I could learn to tolerate it. But it also gave us several more years of a Paul Molitor, without which he wouldn't have made the Hall of Fame. He had his arguably best years after he didn't have to play defense, and those added counting stats (and rise in his career BA) put him over the top. I saw the possibility of things like rule-inflated numbers getting players into the Hall and cheapening old records when the rule was first announced - and I was right. Later

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 08:48 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Rusty Staub likely would have made the Hall of Fame given the chance to spend 1981-1983 on an American League team.

MFS62 Mar 16 2012 09:02 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

That's my point. When it comes to entry to the HOF, players should be competing on a level playing field. Some should not have an advantage based on the league in which they play. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 16 2012 09:03 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Edgy DC wrote: Well, if a key to this happening is the alleged advocacy of the MLBPA, shouldn't the reality of the salary impact be a big deal? These ARE baseball guys-- perhaps the actual numbers still aren't as important as the perception of what they SHOULD be?

Mets – Willets Point Mar 16 2012 10:40 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

My question is: why is it that pitchers can't hit well? Is it because they're not enough games and can get in a routine? There are pinch hitters like Rusty Staub in the 80s who did pretty well in limited plate appearances so why can't pitchers do so as well? Do they focus exclusively on training for pitching to the exclusion of hitting? I'm just wondering why this is the case because it's demonstrably true that pitchers can't hit well but there doesn't seem to be a good explanation why other than "pitchers can't hit."

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 11:11 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

You're encouraged to get good at the skills that are going to get you to the bigs. If you're a pitcher who spends a lot time in the cage and taking extra batting practice, maybe your coach will say, "There's a guy willing to do any small thing to help his team win --- maybe I can even get him some at-bats on days when he's not pitching." But I think it's far more likely that he'd say, "There's a guy who's demonstrably not committed to working on his talent because he'd rather spend his time putzing around in the cage." And I think the manager who is finding at-bats for his A-Level pitchers on their days off will be viewed askance by the organization, who'll think he's somehow not committed to their program, subverting the organization by working their players on the development track (hitting) which the scouts and brass in their wisdom decided was not for them, while taking at-bats from players the organization has decided should be advancing as batters. Hard to go against the culture of the organization or the industry and stay alive. I'm sure we all see it in our work.

metsmarathon Mar 16 2012 11:13 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

ugh. dh. ugly.

Mets – Willets Point Mar 16 2012 12:22 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist. Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 16 2012 12:41 PM

It seems like a self-reinforcing thing. Pitchers can't hit. Therefore pitchers shouldn't practice hitting. Therefore pitchers shouldn't even be allowed to hit. What people don't seem to understand about the anti-DH position is that each player should be expected to contribute both at their position on the field and while batting at the plate. This is not football where a player is only on defense or on offense (tangent: although I think I'd like the game more if there were more "60-minute men"). It would be interesting to see an organization that went against the conventional wisdom and encouraged pitchers to be good hitters, perhaps even to the point that they would be an extra weapon as pinch hitters on non-pitching days. It won't happen, I know, but I'd like to see a team try it and succeed.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 12:31 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Baseball would be a far more interesting game with 16-man rosters. Specialization allows people only to be exposed in doing what they're best at. It makes players less human and less relatable, and makes the game far too tedious in the reflexive substitution of players to protect them from doing what they don't excel at and do all the time. It's part of what makes extra-inning games so interesting. As the bench grows thinner, players are pulled out of their comfort zones. The portly redheaded pinchhitter has to play the outfield, the last reliever has to throw five innings instead of one or two, the LOOGy is suddenly up at the plate with this unfamiliar stick in his hand, and the backup catcher is warming in the pen. It's good stuff, if they're not bunting every third batter.

metirish Mar 16 2012 01:52 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

The worst of the worst..... http://www.baseball-reference.com/play- ... gi?id=P5Te and the best http://www.baseball-reference.com/play- ... gi?id=axMR

G-Fafif Mar 16 2012 05:05 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Edgy DC wrote: Baseball would be a far more interesting game with 16-man rosters. And incredibly fascinating with extreme cagefighting.

Ceetar Mar 16 2012 05:19 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

G-Fafif wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Baseball would be a far more interesting game with 16-man rosters. And incredibly fascinating with extreme cagefighting. Danny Herrera and Prince Fielder. go! I wish teams benchjockey'd more.

The Second Spitter Mar 16 2012 07:41 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Ceetar wrote: How many real DHs are there? Ones that are specifically DHs, paid as DHs, and you really really really wouldn't want to put them out in the field? Jim Thome but he'll be playing at 1st this year.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 07:56 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

metirish wrote: The worst of the worst..... http://www.baseball-reference.com/play- ... gi?id=P5Te and the best http://www.baseball-reference.com/play- ... gi?id=axMR Pretty funny to see Tony Armas, Jr. among the worst hitters. What would his dad say?

Ceetar Mar 16 2012 08:33 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

The Second Spitter wrote: Ceetar wrote: How many real DHs are there? Ones that are specifically DHs, paid as DHs, and you really really really wouldn't want to put them out in the field? Jim Thome but he'll be playing at 1st this year. He'll go down with an injury in late April, when Manuel tries to force the offense by putting him there everyday. He'll breakdown, the Phillies won't hit enough to make the playoffs, and the talking heads will run with the story that if the NL had the DH the poor Phillies wouldn't have been unfairly eliminated.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2012 08:39 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

The Phillies have enough pitching to make the playoffs with a below-average offense. We kind of need Thome to not only go down, but to land on Halladay when he does.

Fman99 Mar 16 2012 10:51 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

I detest the DH. It's the biggest travesty in sports. If you can't operate a glove, get off the field, turn in your uniform and go the fuck home.

The Second Spitter Mar 16 2012 10:59 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

^This is shaping up as Selig's final middle finger to the fans. The sorta parting gift that will make him reviled in baseball folklore for eternity.

G-Fafif Mar 16 2012 11:10 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

The DH sucks. Fuck it.

TransMonk Mar 17 2012 05:41 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Overall on this topic, I'm with Greg.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 17 2012 06:18 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Since I only watch Mets games, it's pretty rare that I see a game played with the DH rule, but when I do, I always feel as if the game had been somehow lobotomized.

bmfc1 Mar 18 2012 06:56 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Tonight's Simpsons had a good anti-DH segment.

G-Fafif Mar 18 2012 09:53 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

bmfc1 wrote: Tonight's Simpsons had a good anti-DH segment. "The designated hitter corrupts the purity of an otherwise elegant game." And that was spoken by a robot!

Ceetar Mar 19 2012 06:42 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

G-Fafif wrote: bmfc1 wrote: Tonight's Simpsons had a good anti-DH segment. "The designated hitter corrupts the purity of an otherwise elegant game." And that was spoken by a robot! was it a robot umpire?

m.e.t.b.o.t. Mar 19 2012 06:59 AM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

G-Fafif wrote: bmfc1 wrote: Tonight's Simpsons had a good anti-DH segment. "The designated hitter corrupts the purity of an otherwise elegant game." And that was spoken by a robot! robots know baseball.

Vic Sage Mar 19 2012 12:38 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

and some robots PLAY baseball... http://www.tv.com/shows/the-twilight-zo ... sey-12619/ http://movies.netflix.com/WiPlayer?KID= ... =729849066

Mets – Willets Point Mar 19 2012 12:41 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

Vic Sage wrote: and some robots PLAY baseball... http://www.tv.com/shows/the-twilight-zo ... sey-12619/ http://movies.netflix.com/WiPlayer?KID= ... =729849066 I was expecting a link to pictures of A-Rod.

dinosaur jesus Mar 19 2012 02:57 PM Re: Resist. Resist. Resist.

and some robots PLAY baseball... http://www.tv.com/shows/the-twilight-zo ... sey-12619/ http://movies.netflix.com/WiPlayer?KID= ... =729849066 I was expecting a link to pictures of A-Rod. A robot centaur?