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Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games Ever

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2012 03:15 AM

50 years from the Mets junk drawer by Chris Jaffe May 14, 2012 This year marks the 50th anniversary of the National League’s first expansion franchises of the 20th century, the New York Mets and the Houston Astros. As befitting a golden anniversary, it’s a natural enough to look back on the franchises. The Astros we’ll save for later. They're in their final season in the NL after all, so a 50th anniversary retrospect might not be as nice as an NL summation of their days. Let’s focus on the Mets for now. There is neither time nor space to recount the entire franchise history of the Mets, of course. That would take many volumes. Instead, let’s set a more modest and attainable goal, recounting some of the stranger and more unlikely moments in Mets franchise history—the odds and ends of their first half-century—a junk drawer for the club, if you will. The following is not intended as any sort of “greatest hits” for the Mets. Far from it. Frankly, listing their greatest moments strikes me as a bit boring. Almost all of the people who have any interest in the Mets can already name them. There’s the 1969 Miracle Mets championship, the 1973 “Ya Gotta Believe” pennant winners, the 1986 “The Bad Guys Win” champions, the clubs that fought memorable postseason battles in 1999, 2000, and 2006, and so on. That’s not junk drawer stuff. That’s trophy case stuff. Let’s go after the little nuggets one easily can miss. Here they are, submitted for your approval, listed in chronological order. The junk drawer May 12, 1962: Mets pitcher Craig Anderson has a nice day in today’s doubleheader. Pitching in relief in both contests, he picks up a pair of wins. I hope he enjoys it while it lasts, because after today he’ll never win another game. He loses 19 straight decisions, including 16 this year, before being drummed out of baseball. May 2, 1963: Skipper Casey Stengel decides to do something different. He inserts catcher Choo Choo Coleman in the batting order’s leadoff slot. To this day, it’s still the only time any catcher has led off for the Mets. New York wins, 10-3. June 26, 1963: After all these years, it’s still WPA’s choice for the best one-game performance by a Mets batter when Tim Harkness comes through in the clutch against the Cubs. In a 14-inning marathon, Harkness is 4-for-7, including a perfect 3-for-3 after the ninth. His biggest moment by far comes in the bottom of the 14th. The Mets trail by two runs thanks to an inside-the-park homer by Chicago star's left fielder, but New York loads the bases with two out for Harkness, who promptly hits a walk-off grand slam. His WPA on the day: 1.107. It’s by far the greatest of the 259 games in which Harkness ever plays. Aug. 9, 1963: Jim Hickman hits a walk-off grand slam for the Mets, an achievement that’s extra special because it ends the 18-game losing streak of Roger Craig, the team’s best pitcher in their early horrible years. Sept. 12, 1963: Ouch. Juan Marichal is a one-man wrecking crew today. The Giants star not only tosses a complete-game shutout against the Mets, but he also hits a home run along the way. It will take New York many years to solve Marichal, who wins his first 19 decisions over the Mets. May 5, 1965: In the 20th century, there are only three games featuring: 1) two Hall of Fame starting pitchers tossing complete games against each other, 2) a final score of 1-0, and 3) the only run coming when a Hall of Famer hits a homer. One of those three games happens here as Jim Bunning guides the Phillies past Mets hurler Warren Spahn, 1-0. Bunning truly does guide the Phillies, as he not only tosses a shutout, but is the man who hits the home run. It’s part of a stretch where Bunning allows four runs total in eight complete-game victories over New York. Oct. 2, 1965: The Mets season ends with one of the greatest pitching duels of all-time. The Phillies and Mets fight each other to a scoreless draw, ending in a 0-0 tie after 18 innings. Both starting pitchers, Chris Short for the Phillies, and Rob Gardner for the Mets, last 15 innings. It’s the only game in the last 90 years in which both starters have a Game Score over 110: 114 for Short and 112 for Gardner. April 15, 1968: A few years after playing in one of the longest scoreless games ever, the Mets find themselves in the longest 1-0 game ever. They lose to Houston in 24 innings. Even worse, the game’s only run scored on an error, shortly after a balk and a pair of intentional walks. Sept. 15, 1969: Just five days ago, the Miracle Mets stormed into first place in the NL East, and today they have one of their most unlikely wins in their storybook season. Cardinals pitcher Steve Carlton is utterly dominating, fanning 19 Mets. Despite his brilliance, St. Louis loses, 4-3. Nine days later, Carlton will face this same Mets team again, and the result will be the shortest outing of his 700-plus career starts: 0.1 innings as the Mets readily chase him from the game. In between those Carlton starts, Pirate pitcher Bob Moose no-hits New York. May 13-15, 1970: Rather famously, after 50-plus years of baseball, the Mets have never thrown a no-hitter. That makes what happens here that much stranger as Met pitchers Gary Gentry and Tom Seaver toss back-to-back one-hitters. Chicago’s Ernie Banks gets an eighth-inning single off Gentry on May 13, and after the Mets enjoy a day, off Philadelphia catcher Mike Compton singles against Seaver in the next game. Compton has just 18 career hits. Seaver had a more famous one-hitter the year before when Cub scrub Jim Qualls scratched a ninth-inning single to ruin a perfect game. But as obscure as Qualls is, he still managed 13 more career hits than Compton. Aug. 7, 1972: Apparently, there is always a new way to lose a ballgame, as the Mets discover when they fall, 3-2, to the Cardinals in 13 innings on the rare walk-off inside-the-park home run. Ted Sizemore is the man who scampers around the bases to end it. Aug. 21, 1972: Happy birthday, Jim Beauchamp! The veteran backup celebrates his 33rd birthday in style. At the tale end of a middling career that’s seen him hit nine homers in over 300 games, Beauchamp knocks out homers in two consecutive at-bats, including a game-winning walk-off shot. He’ll homer again tomorrow, too, before transforming back into a pumpkin. July 21, 1975: Mets third baseman Joe Torre has a knack for hitting the ball to the wrong person today, as he grounds into a record four double plays, helping the Mets lose to Houston. Sept. 5, 1975: For one day at least, Jerry Grote has a knack for hitting the ball to the right person. The Mets catcher ties a record by reaching base three times against St. Louis, all on Cardinals errors. Those are the only errors St. Louis makes on the day, as the Mets win, 5-2. Sept. 16, 1975: Since 1950, quite a few baseball games have ended on a walk-off walk, but none have happened as late as this one. The Mets top the Expos 4-3 when Montreal’s Don DeMola walks Del Unser with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 18th inning. Aug. 15, 1976: It’s the greatest day of Bud Harrleson's life. Before today’s game against the Reds, he gets married. During the game, he scores the only run in a 1-0 Mets win. May 5, 1978: In the ninth inning, Lenny Randle does the impossible for the Mets, hitting a triple on a count of four balls and two strikes. Randle, his Mets teammates, the umpiring crew, and the official scorekeeper all lost track of the count. Phillies pitcher Tug McGraw realizes what’s going on but isn’t going to complain. Randle makes him pay anyway with his triple. The Phillies win anyway, 9-4. June 30, 1979: The Mets top the Cubs, 9-8 in 11 innings. It was just 3-3 after 10 innings, and then the Mets scored six in the top of the 11th and unexpectedly had to hang on for dear life in the bottom of the frame. Aug. 4, 1982: The Mets help Joel Youngblood make history. First he gets a hit for New York in a day game at Wrigley Field. Then the club trades him to Montreal. He joins the team that day, and gets a pinch-hit for them in Philadelphia that night, becoming the first person to get hits for two teams in one day. Oct. 1, 1982: It might be the best pitchers' duel of the 1980s. After nine innings, not only are the Mets and Phillies locked in a scoreless tie, but pitchers Terry Leach and John Denny are each twirling one-hitters. The Mets get a run off a single against a reliever in the 10th for the 1-0 win. April 28, 1985: This begins a pattern for the mid-1980s Mets, improbably wild marathon games they end up winning. They top the Pirates 5-4 in 18 innings. Both teams run out of position players along the way. Pittsburgh uses starting pitcher Rick Rhoden as a pinch-hitter, and New York uses aged pinch-hitter Rusty Staub in the outfield for the last several innings. July 4, 1985: The Twilight Zone comes to Atlanta. In a 19-inning game bordering on the surreal, the Mets take until 4 AM to top the Braves, 16-13, despite numerous Atlanta comebacks. Most bizarrely, at 3:30 AM in the 18th frame, the Braves are down by a run with two outs, and the pitcher is due up. Because they have no position players left, career .074 hitter Rick Camp comes to the plate. After two quick strikes, he hits an unlikely game-tying home run. The Mets score five in the top of the 19th and hold off another Atlanta rally. The game ends with Camp at the plate again representing the tying run, but this time striking out. July 27, 1985: The Mets top the Astros, 16-4. Despite scoring in four separate innings, all 16 Mets runs are unearned, thanks to five Houston errors. June 10, 1986: Boom! Tim Teufel hits a walk-off grand slam for the Mets, allowing them to win 8-4 in 11 innings. July 22, 1986: Time for another weird extra-inning game. Due to a series of early-game pinch-hitters and later-game ejections, the Mets end up with just seven position players, two of whom are catchers. So they put Gary Carter at third base, and let relievers Roger McDowell and Jesse Orosco alternate between pitching and playing a corner outfield slot. This unorthodox defensive alignment beats the Reds, 6-3. After all the weird extra-inning wins in 1985-86, we shouldn’t be so surprised the Mets won the Game Sixes in the 1986 NLCS and World Series. May 28, 1989: A walk-off balk? Yeah, a walk-off balk. In the bottom of the 12th, Roger McDowell does just that with a runner on third to cause the Mets to lose, 4-3. As it happens, the Mets will suffer through a second walk-off balk on June 16, 2011 when D.J. Carrasco surrenders one in the 10th inning. June 25, 1989: The Mets go an entire game without recording a single defensive assist. Extreme flyball pitcher Sid Fernandez is on the mound. April 23, 1992: Since 1950, there have been only four 1-0 games that ended on a walk-off hit-by-pitch. The Mets win one of them right here over the Cardinals. An added bonus: this was a 13-inning 1-0 game that ends with a walk-off hit-by-pitch. Aug. 1, 1996: Even the early Mets never looked this bad. The club commits a franchise-record seven errors in a 13-9 loss. Only six runs are earned. May 11, 1999: There can be only one. Today Mets starting pitcher Bobby Jones faces off against Colorado starting pitcher Bobby Jones in baseball’s first ever match-up of identically named hurlers. The New York Jones has the better career, but the Colorado Jones has the better day, winning 8-5. May 20, 1999: That’s just Robin Ventura being Robin Ventura. In a doubleheader, the Mets third baseman makes history by belting a grand slam in both games. He’d previously hit a slam on consecutive days with the White Sox and later would famously hit a grand slam single in the 1999 NLCS against the Braves. June 9, 1999: It’s the most famous moment in Bobby Valentine’s career. After getting ejected from the game by the umpires, he makes a fake mustache out of those eye-black stickers players wear, puts on some glasses and manages the game from the bench anyway. The Mets win in extra innings, and Valentine gets a suspension. Oct. 1, 2000: It’s not the strangest way to end a game, but since it’s Game No. 162, it also ends the season, giving it extra points. The Mets top the Expos, 3-2, in extra innings on a walk-off error by Montreal. That’s not how you want to enter an offseason. June 15, 2002: This one belongs because it is an oddity, but the backstory is so well known I’m tempted to leave it out. This is the first game Yankee pitcher Roger Clemens faces the Mets since throwing a piece of broken bat at Mike Piazza in the 2000 World Series. There’s a bunch of talk about whether Mets pitcher Shawn Estes should plunk Clemens. He doesn’t. Instead, he belts a home run and shuts out the Yankees for an 8-0 Mets win. Sept. 3, 2002: The Mets set a record no one wants when they drop their 15th straight home game. Then they win the second game in today's doubleheader to end the streak. Aug. 13, 2003: Star catcher Mike Piazza returns from an injury that kept him out for three months, and his timing is perfect as tonight is Italian Night at Shea Stadium. Not only is it Italian Night in the stands, but Piazza makes sure it is on the field as well, belting a homer and driving in five runs in the Mets’ 9-2 win. June 25, 2005: It’s a record many didn’t even think was possible. In the second inning, the Mets improbably get three sacrifice flies in one inning in an interleague game against the Yankees. They can get three sacrifices because Yankee outfielder Bernie Williams drops one of the flies, giving the Mets an extra out. Aug. 26, 2007: The Mets have surrendered over 69,000 hits in their franchise history, but perhaps none are as unlikely than this. Leading off the fifth against the Mets, obese 44-year pitcher David Wells lays down a bunt and beats out an infield single. The hit raises Wells’ career average to .121. June 12, 2009: It’s the Luis Castillo Game. The Mets are one out from an 8-7 win over the Yankees when Alex Rodriguez hits an easy pop-up to second baseman Castillo. Somehow, he muffs it, and because runners were going with two outs, two come around to score for a highly unexpected 9-8 Yankee win. July 8, 2009: Oops. In a game broadcast on ESPN, New York’s Alex Cora fouls a ball off the chin of sideline reporter Erin Andrews. She goes to the hospital but is released after suffering only some bruises. Aug. 23, 2009: In the bottom of the ninth against the Phillies, the Mets' Jeff Francoeur hits into the rarest play in baseball, the unassisted triple play. July 6, 2010: Johan Santana has a pretty nice day. Not only does he throw a complete-game shutout, but he hits his first home run in it, as well. Aug. 13, 2010: The Mets have zero no-hitters and 34 one-hitters in franchise history, but perhaps none of the near-misses for a no-hitter is as galling as this one. Philadelphia pitcher Cole Hamels gets the lone safety against R.A. Dickey of the Mets. Sept. 27, 2011: It’s a deeply unpleasant loss for the Mets. After surrendering a go-ahead run to Cincinnati in the top of the 13th, here’s what happens to the Mets in the bottom of the inning: Walk, caught stealing, walk, balk, walk, walk, line drive double play. It’s tough to draw four walks in an inning and not score, but damned if that isn’t what happened. History instructor by day, statnerd by night, Chris Jaffe leads one of the most exciting double lives imaginable; with the exception of every other double life possible to imagine. Despite his lack of comic-book-hero-worthiness, Chris enjoys farting around with this stuff. His new book, Evaluating Baseball's Managers is available for order. Chris welcomes responses to his articles via e-mail. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/artic ... nk-drawer/

Edgy MD May 20 2012 11:44 AM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

The Guy who Authored This Article wrote: June 26, 1963: After all these years, it’s still WPA’s choice for the best one-game performance by a Mets batter when Tim Harkness comes through in the clutch against the Cubs. In a 14-inning marathon, Harkness is 4-for-7, including a perfect 3-for-3 after the ninth. His biggest moment by far comes in the bottom of the 14th. The Mets trail by two runs thanks to an inside-the-park homer by Chicago star's left fielder, but New York loads the bases with two out for Harkness, who promptly hits a walk-off grand slam. His WPA on the day: 1.107. It’s by far the greatest of the 259 games in which Harkness ever plays. Not to take anything away from Harkness, but the greatest one-man/one-day freak show was Fonzie's 6-6, right?

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2012 12:45 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Edgy DC wrote: June 26, 1963: After all these years, it’s still WPA’s choice for the best one-game performance by a Mets batter when Tim Harkness comes through in the clutch against the Cubs. In a 14-inning marathon, Harkness is 4-for-7, including a perfect 3-for-3 after the ninth. His biggest moment by far comes in the bottom of the 14th. The Mets trail by two runs thanks to an inside-the-park homer by Chicago star's left fielder, but New York loads the bases with two out for Harkness, who promptly hits a walk-off grand slam. His WPA on the day: 1.107. It’s by far the greatest of the 259 games in which Harkness ever plays. Not to take anything away from Harkness, but the greatest one-man/one-day freak show was Fonzie's 6-6, right? Not according to WPA. Most of Fonzie's six hits probably came with the Mets already up, thus generating low marginal WPA #'s. Harkness's three extra inning hits were highly valuable WPA-wise, given the sudden death nature of being the home team in a tied extra-inning game. WPA is a bullshit stat, though, if you ask me; a by-product of randomness. Unless you can prove that hitters are clutch, and are able to elevate their skills in key game situations, another bullshit concept, if you ask me.

Edgy MD May 20 2012 01:46 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

That's the grace of it, though, right? If there's no such thing as clutch performance besides random luck, it will even out over a season and a career. If it doesn't, over a sustained period, there's your evidence.

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2012 02:27 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Edgy DC wrote: That's the grace of it, though, right? If there's no such thing as clutch performance besides random luck, it will even out over a season and a career. If it doesn't, over a sustained period, there's your evidence. Not sure what you're getting at, or whether you're for or against the existence of the clutch hitter. A little help?

Edgy MD May 20 2012 02:37 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

I'm neither for nor against the existence. I think if such a creature exists, the stat can measure it. If such a creature does not exist, the stat can establish that. You ask for evidence, and the stat seems to be the sort of tool built to search for evidence.

HahnSolo May 20 2012 02:44 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Nice list. No "They win the damn thing" game?

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2012 02:55 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Edgy DC wrote: I'm neither for nor against the existence. I think if such a creature exists, the stat can measure it. If such a creature does not exist, the stat can establish that. You ask for evidence, and the stat seems to be the sort of tool built to search for evidence. I didn't ask for any evidence. I already know that there is no evidence to support the existence of the clutch hitter. And evidence aside, the existence of a clutch hitter, from a logical standpoint, from an intuitive standpoint, doesn't hold water. Because if a batter had the ability to elevate his hitting in order to bring home the runner on third base, then he'd know enough about the importance of being that runner on third base in the first place. And so therefore, he'd try just as hard in those at bats when no one was on base to get to third base on his own. If a batter had the ability to bat better at key moments, why wouldn't he use those "magic clutch powers" to hit safely at all times, instead of limiting his use of the clutch to RISP's. Wouldn't he wanna bat 1.000 for the season? Wouldn't he wanna hit a homer every time up? And where the hell is the pitcher in all of this? Clutch hitting proponents act as if the pitcher is a superfluous bystander in all of this, without the ability to clutch up himself, and offset the batter's clutchness. With no say or sway in how the at bat ends up. It's all supposedly on the batter's clutchness, who apparently has total control of the at bat. It's absurd. And illogical.

RealityChuck May 20 2012 03:18 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I didn't ask for any evidence. I already know that there is no evidence to support the existence of the clutch hitter. Most people who study sabermetrics -- including Bill James -- say there it. And evidence aside, the existence of a clutch hitter, from a logical standpoint, from an intuitive standpoint, doesn't hold water. Because if a batter had the ability to elevate his hitting in order to bring home the runner on third base, then he'd know enough about the importance of being that runner on third base in the first place. And so therefore, he'd try just as hard in those at bats when no one was on base to get to third base on his own. Piss poor logic. You can't hit triples to order. But you can hit a single or a sacrifice fly to bring a runner in. If a batter had the ability to bat better at key moments, why wouldn't he use those "magic clutch powers" to hit safely at all times, instead of limiting his use of the clutch to RISP's. Wouldn't he wanna bat 1.000 for the season? Wouldn't he wanna hit a homer every time up? Sure he would, but that's irrelevant, since those aren't going to happen. But batters are human beings. Some get nervous in clutch situations. Some love being in them. If a batter gets flustered by the situation, then he's going to be worse when they come up. And if he seeks out the situation, he's going to be better. Choking in sports is a known psychological issue. Just ask Rick Ankiel why he's not on the mound these days. It has to do with thinking about things you should be doing automatically. Ankiel forgot how to throw a baseball -- a talent he'd been doing for years -- and started to think about the aspects of it instead of just throwing the ball. He is an extreme case, but clearly there are players who overthink matters when faced with pressure. On the other hand, there should be players who are more comfortable when the pressure is on, and are thus able to hit better in those situations. There are no numbers, not because it doesn't exist, but because no one has yet devised a way to quantify a clutch situation. RISP is not necessarily clutch (if you team is ahead by ten runs, it doesn't matter if you drive in anyone else).

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2012 03:20 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Because if a batter had the ability to elevate his hitting in order to bring home the runner on third base, then he'd know enough about the importance of being that runner on third base in the first place. And so therefore, he'd try just as hard in those at bats when no one was on base to get to third base on his own. If a batter had the ability to bat better at key moments, why wouldn't he use those "magic clutch powers" to hit safely at all times, instead of limiting his use of the clutch to RISP's. Wouldn't he wanna bat 1.000 for the season? Wouldn't he wanna hit a homer every time up? And where the hell is the pitcher in all of this? Clutch hitting proponents act as if the pitcher is a superfluous bystander in all of this, without the ability to clutch up himself, and offset the batter's clutchness. With no say or sway in how the at bat ends up. It's all supposedly on the batter's clutchness, who apparently has total control of the at bat. It's absurd. And illogical. Well, if that's your definition of clutch, then yes, it's absurd to think it exists. I think of clutch as a situation more than a personality trait. But if a player is "clutch" I think it means that his knees won't get wobbly when the game is on the line. It's not that he's likely to do better in such situations, but he's also less likely to do worse. Keith Hernandez was clutch. So was Mike Piazza. Is there a stat that can prove it? I would doubt it. But they had a fire in their eye when the game was on the line. They wanted to be at the plate at that big moment. I don't know that that's true of everyone.

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2012 03:47 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Keith Hernandez was clutch. So was Mike Piazza. Is there a stat that can prove it? I would doubt it. But they had a fire in their eye when the game was on the line. They wanted to be at the plate at that big moment. I don't know that that's true of everyone. I would've wanted Keith or Piazza up in a key situation at least as much as you would've. Not because I thought they were clutch hitters. But because I thought that, at least in their primes anyway, they were great hitters. They were all-stars, frequently generating MVP caliber seasons. And they hit will in the clutch, however that term is defined, not because they were clutch hitters, but because they were great hitters. They hit well in the clutch and in the non-clutch and on Tuesday afternoons and Saturday evenings and in May and August, too. Great hitters outhit their peers in most situations. If clutch hitting --again, however you choose to define that term -- is truly its own independent skill, apart from regular old hitting, then over the course of 100+ years of MLB, and all of the thousands and thousands of hitters who played the game, you'd find many, many hitters that were terrific in the clutch over a statistically meaningful number of AB's, yet who sucked everywhere else. Essentially, there'd be a boatload of players with lifetime .325 BA's in the clutch and higher RBi/PA rates in the clutch than in the non-clutch, who were overall .250, .260 lifetime hitters. These combined traits don't exist. I didn't ask for any evidence. I already know that there is no evidence to support the existence of the clutch hitter. Most people who study sabermetrics -- including Bill James -- say there is. Bill James most definitely is a non-believer. James' philosophy on clutchness can be paraphrased as folllows: "Clutch hits exist. Clutch hitters don't". And evidence aside, the existence of a clutch hitter, from a logical standpoint, from an intuitive standpoint, doesn't hold water. Because if a batter had the ability to elevate his hitting in order to bring home the runner on third base, then he'd know enough about the importance of being that runner on third base in the first place. And so therefore, he'd try just as hard in those at bats when no one was on base to get to third base on his own. Piss poor logic. You can't hit triples to order. But you can hit a single or a sacrifice fly to bring a runner in.. I didn't literally mean "triple". I meant that he'd use his clutch powers to get on base to eventually be that runner on third. It's just as important to be the runner in scoring position as it is to be the batter that drives him in.

Ceetar May 20 2012 04:04 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Essentially, there'd be a boatload of players with lifetime .325 BA's in the clutch and higher RBi/PA rates in the clutch than in the non-clutch, who were overall .250, .260 lifetime hitters. They don't exist. Aha, but you can only measure specific cases. What's 'clutch'? Even if we're pretending that there is some mental switch a player can actively flick and not just some unknowing change or adjustment he makes without an active decision to do so it's impossible to know what a given player determines is an important situation. (After all, don't they say players are really processing all these things subconsciously anyway, because to actively think "hmm, looks like a curveball on the inside corner, I should swing" would never be fast enough to actually swing.) So how can you measure what's important? Even the player may not know what's clutch. I know I personally (assuming there is any correlation to "real life" pressure and baseball pressure) have thought I felt calm at moments when I might have cause to be nervous. And exhibiting signs of nervousness despite outwardly thinking i'm fine. (say not sleeping before a big test or presentation) So to think to measure something where we don't even know the qualifications is silly. And the out and out obvious clutch situations are so few and far between that no player truly gets a meaningful sample size of them. Game sevens? do or die elimination games? And then you can be locked in and still subject to the whims of luck. You can hit a blast to the outfield only to have the outfielder there to make the play..but then a fan can grab teh ball over the fence and the umpire can not tell and rule it a home run. Clutch for hitting it that far? unclutch for being likely an out? clutch for it being ruled a home run anyway? or is that not a clutch situation because it was only game on of the ALDS and it was only the 8th inning and the deficit was only one run? Or is it clutch because it's a rookie player on a big market team? How do you measure that? I don't think you can. Doesn't mean clutch doesn't exist.

Edgy MD May 20 2012 04:13 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Unless you can prove that hitters are clutch, and are able to elevate their skills in key game situations, another bullshit concept, if you ask me. batmagadanleadoff wrote: I didn't ask for any evidence. Please don't jerk me around. I'm not young.

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2012 04:20 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Ceetar wrote: Essentially, there'd be a boatload of players with lifetime .325 BA's in the clutch and higher RBi/PA rates in the clutch than in the non-clutch, who were overall .250, .260 lifetime hitters. They don't exist. Aha, but you can only measure specific cases. What's 'clutch'? ... How do you measure that? I don't think you can. Doesn't mean clutch doesn't exist. Does it really matter how clutch is measured? So long as you think that a player can elevate his performance in a certain situation -- whatever that situation is and however you define that situation -- I'd counter with: why won't the player always elevate his performance instead of waiting around for that situation? If everybody waited around for a teammate to get to second or third before they gave it their all, then they'd get shutout every game. I read some of these articles on clutch hitting and I'm supposed to come away believing that the best players get hits whenever they want to, and it's all as easy as flicking the switch that turns on the bathroom light.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 20 2012 04:22 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Well, yeah, it's difficult-- perhaps impossible-- to prove that clutch doesn't exist. It's also difficult to prove that ghosts DON'T exist, there ISN'T any other intelligent life in the universe, and that there is NO soul alive who thought Dillon Gee's goatee looked terrible. But it's fair to say there is no real evidence* proving the positive sides of these arguments, isn't it? *As pleasant as it can be, it's not exactly objective... so I'll rule out "good feeling in the belly when you see them coming up in a high-leverage situation" as a piece of "real evidence."

Ceetar May 20 2012 05:06 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

but not having real evidence is not the same as evidence for the opposite. (provided of course, that the opposite of clutch hitting is no clutch hitting. Leaving aside the idea that perhaps it's not possible to elevate your game, but maybe it's possible to psych yourself out and play worse) At one point we didn't possess the tools and understanding to know that dinosaurs walked the earth, that reservoirs of certain rocks deep in caves could be an energy source, or that there was another continent way across the sea from Europe (well, from a Eurocentric view anyway). Perhaps clutch hitting is like the idea that thunder is the anger of the gods and it's a story made up to explain something we don't quite understand yet. But perhaps there is a nugget of truth to at as well. Just because some extrapolate that nugget into a ridiculous narrative about some players raising their game doesn't mean the whole concept is complete bull. It's easy to come to a conclusion based on facts and think there's nothing else to learn, but that's not always true either. There's certainly evidence that the narrative is wrong. But does it disprove the entire concept of clutch? I don't think so. I'm not quite sure how to measure or define it, but that's not to say it's not possible either. What if it's simply subtle? What if 'clutch' ends up being worth say the total of one more hit over a season full of AB? What if the whole difference is players that are calm and collected in the clutch simply sleep better at night and are therefore more rested and alert than the average player? What if it's not a lifetime trait? Maybe there's a time in your life where everything's pretty harmonious. you're happily in love, your kids are safe and doing well, you feel good and happy and cheerful. Prehaps that's calming in a way that exhibits itself in performance, or perhaps it doesn't last long enough to outdo luck and all the 'extra' hits you get are hard hit linedrives into gloves. But these things don't go into box scores. What would Dwight Gooden's splits look like in games he was out partying the night before versus games he wasn't?

Frayed Knot May 20 2012 05:18 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

** RealityChuck wrote: Most people who study sabermetrics -- including Bill James -- say there is. ** BatMags wrote: Bill James most definitely is a non-believer. James' philosophy on clutchness can be paraphrased as folllows: "Clutch hits exist. Clutch hitters don't". I suspect what Chuck is remembering is an article* James wrote (5 or 6?) years back where he essentially challenged the Sabremetric community to not simply accept the advances and claims made by the older generation of number crunchers over the last few decades a new orthodoxy never to be challenged. In the same way that James himself challenged earlier things that everyone in baseball "Knew", today's up-and-comers should do the same to his work and that of his contemporaries. About concepts like clutch hitting he wrote that; “Let’s not be too sure that we haven’t been missing something important”, a statement that marks him as maybe a bit agnostic about the concept but not a renouncer of his earlier claims as some who read the piece at the times seemed to think he was saying. * Search the net for James's 'Underestimating the Fog' to see if it's available. As for the whole Fonzie/Harkness debate; I see nothing wrong with saying that Harkness's wild day was better than Edgardo's on account of Tim's day including several clutch hits (doesn't get much better than X-inning grand slams) as compared to Fonzie's better raw stat line which occurred during a 2-touchdown blowout.

Edgy MD May 20 2012 08:03 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

There's a debate?

Frayed Knot May 20 2012 08:06 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Not to take anything away from Harkness, but the greatest one-man/one-day freak show was Fonzie's 6-6, right? Is that above quote not the basis for most of this thread?

Edgy MD May 20 2012 08:11 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Yes. And the discussion that ensued has taken us far afield from anything remotely relating a Harkness-Alfonzo debate, with nobody really mentioning either player or either performance. I totally just threw that out there. I readily concede to the Harkness position of Mr. Jaffe. I'm even heading out to buy some Harkness tables tomorrow.

Frayed Knot May 20 2012 08:24 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

Edgy DC wrote: Yes. And the discussion that ensued has taken us far afield from anything remotely relating a Harkness-Alfonzo debate, with nobody really mentioning either player or either performance. Yes, and I discussed the question about the existence (or not) of clutch hitting and then briefly went back and added my two cents about the Alfonzo v Harkness debate. Would I have been better off using 'discussion', 'question', 'topic' instead of 'debate' or was any term sufficient to send this into one of those threads which devolves into a maddening argument about the argument?

Edgy MD May 20 2012 08:42 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

I conceded. And I don't think anything I wrote would qualify as maddening.

Vic Sage May 20 2012 09:33 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

regarding "clutch"... good hitters hit good. the rest is chaos.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 20 2012 11:58 PM Re: Some of the Quirkiest, Irkiest and Perkiest Mets Games E

And my point was that it's damn near impossible to PROVE any negative.