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A Very Hot Stove

Are the Mets Becoming the Yankees?

Yes, and I don't like it.	3 votes
Yes, but I don't care. The rules are the rules.	2 votes
Not quite. Talk to me after Manny or Soriano join the team.	13 votes
Not at all. We could stockpile players until hell freezes over but wouldn't be like those fools.	9 votes
Shut up. I don't like to think about it.	3 votes

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 09:50 AM

The Mets have been piling up free agents and superstars for two winters now: Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Wagner, Redman. There is still talk of adding Soriano or Manny into the mix. How do you feel? Are we doing what everyone despises about the Yankees? At least the Mets are spending their money on good players and leaving the Randy Johnsons and Carl Pavanos alone. What about the homegrown aspect of everything? Do you just root for laundry? Will you root for anyone who wears the blue and orange (minus Asshead and a select few)?

Edgy DC Nov 29 2005 09:59 AM

I feel all of those things in different proportions.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 29 2005 10:05 AM

They're behaving like the Yankees, yes. And hopefully it will lead to the same kind of success. I'd take six pennants in ten years, even without the four World's Championships. (I'd want at least one or two, though.) But that doesn't make them the Yankees. As long as they don't start calling Shea a cathedral, and start talking about the magical properties of the uniform, and all that nonsense, they won't be the Yankees. It's not just the big-spending that makes the Yankees hateful. There's so much more, and I can't imagine the Mets taking on that personality, or "aura."

heep Nov 29 2005 10:12 AM

We are starting to feel like the Yanks and I don't like it. Quotes like these make me cough up my breakfast. Jeff Wilpon admitted as much when he said, "We want to create something exciting on the field instead of waiting for the minor-leaguers to produce." As much as the club loves Milledge's trend line, one senior official said, "You're talking about the difference between a Hall of Famer and a guy who's never played a day in the big leagues." The points are well-taken, but from a purist perspective and not a Wilpon business perspective, I personally would rather see the Milledge than Ramirez in the outfield next year. Why are the Wilpons so shortsighted? Do they feel that overshadowed by the Yankees? I do not get it. We needed a presence in the lineup and we got it. We needed a closer and we got the best. We will acquire catcher. We lost draft picks. Ok. We lost a pitching prospect. Ok. Do we need to give up Milledge? Ramirez is is a two tool HOF presence for 3 years. You cannot compare the 2 players, but Milledge has the potential to provide 5 tools and 15 years. I don't like this deal. Does anyone share my thoughts?

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 10:18 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2005 10:23 AM

Hold the phone. I'm hoping not to get another thread that discusses deals and potential deals. Not to be a board Nazi but we have 18 threads like that. I want to know more how you feel about big spending and wheeling and dealing. Suppose Manny...(actually forget Manny, as JD noted he's discussed everywhere)...suppose a superstar FA could be signed or traded for right now who is unquestionably better than Milledge will ever be and is only in his early to mid twenties(ie a Pujols type) How would that make you feel? Maybe I should've left out that laundry question.

Edgy DC Nov 29 2005 10:22 AM

Yup (to heep). The unstated implication of that senior official's statement --- that Ramirez will continue to play like a Hall of Famer and Milledge's lack of big-league experiece (at what --- 19 and 20?) is conclusive and concrete --- is narrow-minded and shallow. Anybody can act only on evidence in front of him. A good businessman in a highly competitive field has to glean the future from trends besides recent bottom-line returns. Outside of baseball, development departments makes exciting dynamic world-changing businesses. Acquisitiions departments prop up tired old exploitative soul-sucking businesses.

MFS62 Nov 29 2005 10:31 AM

Are the Mets becoming the Yankees? Not until obnoxious fans with bad hair from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks, start showing up in droves at Shea Staduim. Later

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 10:33 AM

MFS62 wrote: Not until obnoxious fans with bad hair from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks, start showing up in droves at Shea Staduim. No one like that has EVER rooted for the Mets. Especially not in 1986. Forget the fans and the bandwagoners. There are plenty of silvers out there who root for the Yanks and are intelligent.

Willets Point Nov 29 2005 11:00 AM

The Yankees still have substantial advantages over the rest of the league. Other teams have stocked up on free agents and big names and had it flop (see Orioles, Rangers) or were sucessful briefly but couldn't sustain it (1997 Marlins, 2001 Diamondbacks). Hell, even the Mets 2001-2002 offseason acquisitions were considered bold at the time but lead nowhere near Yankee success. When the Mets can sign an aging all-star with a prohibitive salary on waivers and convince him to be happy coming in off the bench once a week, when the Mets can overpay on gazillion-dollar contract to a first baseman who had one great year and then release him without a care if he flops, and when the Mets can resign all the star players on their own team they want whether developed in the farm or acquired elsewhere by blowing the other suitors out of the water, THEN they'll start being like the Yankees.

old original jb Nov 29 2005 11:04 AM Are the Mets becoming the Yankees?

The difference is still simple. The Mets organization and all true Mets fans hope that the Mets will field a competitive team, appear in the post season, and persevere to a World Series title. There will be true joy when and if the Mets win. Yankee fans (and some of those who run the Yankee organization) feel entitled to win. Each year, the World Series is theirs to lose, and if it doesn't happen rather than the sense of honestlhy pursuing and falling short of a hard goal to which no one should feel entitled, there is the sense of someone having dropped the ball. If they win, it is another day in the office. If they lose, it is "cover your ass and don't take any calls from Tampa." As a Mets fan, no matter how many top tier free agents we get, I know in my heart that no one is every entitled to anything in life except hope.

Nymr83 Nov 29 2005 11:05 AM

heep wrote: We needed a presence in the lineup and we got it. We needed a closer and we got the best. We will acquire catcher. We lost draft picks. Ok. We lost a pitching prospect. Ok. Do we need to give up Milledge? Ramirez is is a two tool HOF presence for 3 years. You cannot compare the 2 players, but Milledge has the potential to provide 5 tools and 15 years. I don't like this deal. Does anyone share my thoughts? we didn't need "a" lineup presence, we needed multiple ones, Delgado is a good addition but i still don't expect us to be in the top 5 in the NL in runs scored. as for Ramirez, all "tools" are not created equal...hitting for average and hitting for power (the two "tools" that i assume you are saying he has) are more important than the others.

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 11:11 AM Re: Are the Mets becoming the Yankees?

="old original jb"]The difference is still simple. The Mets organization and all true Mets fans hope that the Mets will field a competitive team, appear in the post season, and persevere to a World Series title. There will be true joy when and if the Mets win. Yankee fans (and some of those who run the Yankee organization) feel entitled to win. Each year, the World Series is theirs to lose, and if it doesn't happen rather than the sense of honestlhy pursuing and falling short of a hard goal to which no one should feel entitled, there is the sense of someone having dropped the ball. If they win, it is another day in the office. If they lose, it is "cover your ass and don't take any calls from Tampa." As a Mets fan, no matter how many top tier free agents we get, I know in my heart that no one is every entitled to anything in life except hope. I agree with the difference between Met fans and Yankee fans. But I'm wondering something slightly different. Does it bother you that the Mets are picking up all these guys? Is it okay to do so simply because you, as a fan, don't feel entitled to winning a WS?

old original jb Nov 29 2005 11:18 AM And another thing.....

]Are the Mets becoming the Yankees? Not until obnoxious fans with bad hair from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks, start showing up in droves at Shea Staduim. This statement is so wrong in so many ways. There are lots of "well-dressed", "sophisticated", "polished" fans of both teams who despite their fine provenance are masters at being obnoxious and stupid. There are also lots of fans of both teams with "bad hair ", from New Jersey, wearing polyester warmup suits and "gold Joey Botafuco starter kits around their necks" who have good brains and big hearts. No need to make generalizations--(other than the one about Yankee fans feeling a sense of entitlement!) MFS62--it makes me worry that your heart is ten sizes too small.

MFS62 Nov 29 2005 11:38 AM

]MFS62--it makes me worry that your heart is ten sizes too small. Actually, I am a very compassionate person. My heart is as big as the ocean. But sometimes my heart doesn't let my head (or typing fingers) know about it. That was meant as a joke, and if anything was a shot at the so-called "Bleacher Creatures" in Yankee Stadium. And the sports cartoonists in the Daily News have on occasion pictured them as I did. And I did say "obnoxious" fans. But, you're right. You can't generalize. Looks can be deceiving. And I had a feeling I would get some storm and fury from posting that without explanation. Later

old original jb Nov 29 2005 11:40 AM re: Heart as big as the ocean

Glad to hear it and thanks for the explanation, MFS62.

Rotblatt Nov 29 2005 12:04 PM

Nymr83 wrote: we didn't need "a" lineup presence, we needed multiple ones, Delgado is a good addition but i still don't expect us to be in the top 5 in the NL in runs scored. Seriously? Because the difference between us and the 5th best NL team in RS last year was only 18 runs, and personally, I think the difference between Delgado + Nady/Diaz and Mientkiewicz/Jacobs + Cameron/Diaz is greater than 18 runs. I know no one believes me, but our offense wasn't that bad last year (7th in RS in the NL), and we've just replaced the deepest, darkest hole in our offense with a monster. We'll probably come close to leading the league in 1B production, just a year after getting the worst 1B production in the league--that's a HUGE swing for us. Assuming we sign either Molina or Hernandez, we should replace Piazza's production, and I think it's fair to expect that any decline from Cliff will be matched by an increase in production from Beltran and/or Reyes. So IMO, a fair expectation would be the following: league-average offense from C, SS, LF, CF & RF; upper tier offense from 1B & 3B; & terrible offense from 2B. To me, that's easily a top-five offense--were it not for the extreme park effects of Cincinatti & Philadelphia, I'd say a top 3 offense. If we replace Matsui with a capable 2B, I think we WILL be a top 3 offense--and clear 800 RS for the first time since 2000--regardless of park effect. And, of course, our SS, LF & CF all have shots at being well above average at their respective positions.

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 12:12 PM

Matsui's 2006 numbers: .315 BA, 45 doubles, 98 Runs scored (hits in front of the pitcher until the AS break, when he's moved up to second after a minor injury sidelines Beltran for 10 days. Matsui performs so well in that spot that the lineup is adjusted to leave him there and he also bats first on Reyes' days off).

OlerudOwned Nov 29 2005 01:26 PM

Elster88 wrote: Matsui's 2006 numbers: .315 BA, 45 doubles, 98 Runs scored (hits in front of the pitcher until the AS break, when he's moved up to second after a minor injury sidelines Beltran for 10 days. Matsui performs so well in that spot that the lineup is adjusted to leave him there and he also bats first on Reyes' days off). And caaaaaandy rains from the sky.

Elster88 Nov 29 2005 02:50 PM

Yes! Got one vote for shut up! Right around when KC shows up on the blue bar! J/K, KC, hopefully you're in a good mood today.

Zvon Nov 29 2005 02:57 PM

Lol. No way. The Mets are the Mets. We are just once again becoming the better baseball team in New York City.(like the mid to late 80s) Will Wilpon and Omar spoil us? Maybe. But Ive been with this team through thick and thin (------alotta thin). ..........................spoil me!

TheOldMole Nov 29 2005 05:57 PM

I'm with shut up.

Elster88 Dec 02 2005 02:46 PM

I can't open a web page or watch a sports show on TV without tripping over 5 segments crying that Omar is a reckless free spender and that the Mets are made of money. But between Piazza and Cameron leaving the Mets budget can't be much higher than it was last year. To be fair to the media assclowns, I started this thread wondering if the Mets were becoming the new Yankees. They, and this thread, will have a better case if Manny or Soriano do show up. But for now they should STFU because this is beyond beating a dead horse.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2005 02:49 PM

I can't begin to tell you how serene my existence has been since I stopped listening to WFAN. The day the Mets signed Wagner I switched to WFAN for the first time in months. After hearing about 60 seconds of Mike and the Mad Dog I had to switch it off.

Elster88 Dec 02 2005 02:54 PM

Not even just the FAN. It's staggering what's out there. You haven't noticed it while perusing the web?

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2005 02:59 PM

I guess I haven't been perusing all that much either. I don't doubt that there's a lot of crazy talk out there.

Rotblatt Dec 05 2005 07:54 AM

I think with the addition of Lo Duca, we're now at last year's salary. $30M came off the books (including the Cameron deal), IIRC.

Elster88 Dec 05 2005 07:59 AM

Yeah, I started this thread prematurely, assuming either Manny or Soriano were joining the team, as I mentioned above. The Mets haven't really overspent so much, unless you consider their payroll from last year to be overspending (which is debateable, IMHO).

Valadius Dec 05 2005 08:51 AM

The prospect of Soriano joining the Mets grows ever dimmer.

metirish Dec 05 2005 09:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 05 2005 09:39 AM

That's a good thing Val.....Furcal got some nice money from the Dodgers....$39 million for three years...wow

Valadius Dec 05 2005 09:32 AM

Indeed it is a good thing. I can't stand the thought of his defense.

smg58 Dec 05 2005 09:49 AM

We're still below last year. Piazza was ~$16M, the Cameron trade saved us ~$6M, we had $6M in buyouts ($2M apiece to Leiter, Vaughn, and Hidalgo), $4.5M from Roger Cedeno's contract, $4.5M saved on Trachsel's contract, ~$2M from Heredia's buyout plus the $1M we're not paying the Yankees for Stanton, plus ~$9M saved by buying out Mintky, Ishii, and Looper. And I'm probably missing a few things, too. Don't assume we're done dealing.

Elster88 Dec 05 2005 09:49 AM

Tell me we're not still paying Mo.

seawolf17 Dec 05 2005 09:52 AM

Bobby Bonilla comes back on the books in 2009.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 10:00 AM

I don't think we're still paying Mr. Deli Sandwich.

smg58 Dec 05 2005 10:03 AM

We bought out the last year of Mo's contract last season. In that sense we're no longer still paying him, although we did defer some of his money.

Rotblatt Dec 05 2005 10:04 AM

As near as I can figure from the website below, we're at just under $100M. That doesn't include Mo, however, whom I believe we owe $3.75M in 2006. http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004_12_27_mlbcontracts_archive.html Even with Mo, plenty of room there--I figure probably $15M-$20M we could add. Next year, we'll have $23.5M coming off the books between Glavine, Floyd, Matsui & Trachsel. We've definitely got some flexibility here.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 10:06 AM

When do Wright and Reyes become arbitration-eligible?

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2005 10:49 AM

Reyes after '06. Wright most likely not until after '07

Valadius Dec 05 2005 10:57 AM

Well we're gonna have to keep some of that $23.5 million available for Reyes next year - and for Heilman and Seo, for that matter.

seawolf17 Dec 05 2005 10:59 AM

This is going to be blasphemous, but let's see Reyes get a little better before we start throwing long-term big dollars at him.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 11:05 AM

He does need to learn how to draw walks and not strike out as much, but he still deserves long-term moolah. I'd start with $3 million in 2007.

Centerfield Dec 06 2005 10:07 AM

From today's Newsday: By their estimation, the Mets' payroll for next season is roughly at its 2005 level; the 10 players no longer under contract account for more than $30 million, which is what Wagner, Lo Duca and Delgado will make in the coming year. That's no coincidence, either. One Mets official proudly displayed the breakdown and denied the club is merely spending wildly to buy a contender. So much for turning into the MFY's...

Elster88 Dec 06 2005 10:22 AM

...as noted on page 2 of this thread

Centerfield Dec 06 2005 10:25 AM

D'oh. RMPL.

Elster88 Dec 06 2005 10:26 AM

It's all good. The beginning of this thread is a tasty morsel for me to eat. I'm filled with self-loathing everytime I read (about 17,000 times per day) about how the Mets are buying the back pages and the town from the Yanx, because I contributed to it.