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IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Mets – Willets Point
Jun 11 2012 01:42 PM

All right time to shake off the lousy week and realize that we're still three games above .500 in mid-June, and not too many expected the Mets to be above .500 at all this season. Let's make the best of it an bedevil some Rays.

Chris Young and Alex Cobb are your scheduled starters.

Ceetar
Jun 11 2012 01:50 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

stupid fake grass. stupid DH. stupid Florida. Stupid helping the Yankees win their division. Stupid hoping the Yankees help us win ours.

wow, I'm a curmudgeon today.

Is Duda gonna share the DH position? Bay get a day there maybe? Wright for the sake of the 'half day off' thing? At least these are the last three DH games until October.

Ashie62
Jun 11 2012 05:04 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

All pretty much true...not to belabor it, but we do need a SS...

Fman99
Jun 11 2012 07:06 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Bay is the DH (Doesn't Hit).

Ceetar
Jun 11 2012 07:54 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Ashie62 wrote:
All pretty much true...not to belabor it, but we do need a SS...


I'm pretty sure any 'available' shortstop has a restraining order against the Mets signing them at this point.

Frayed Knot
Jun 11 2012 08:27 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

You people do realize that Quintanilla is hitting .314/.442/.514 as a Met -- and that aside from turning Jeter's 80 foot roller into a double the other day (one AB after his 60 foot single) that he's been playing pretty good 'D' too, right?

I mean, yeah it's a small sample size and I'd like to see Tejada back as much as anyone. But, for in the short term anyway, finding a stop-gap SS is way down on the list of priorities.
Certainly it's behind getting the 'power positions' of 1B & LF to say maybe get a ball out of the infield more than once a week. I'd also slot it in back of finding a reliever with an ERA of less than 6.00

Edgy MD
Jun 11 2012 08:30 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I don't know about "you people." This is Ashie's refrain.

If he qualified, Quint would be leading all National League shortstops in OPS. Defensively, the game I was at in Washington, it felt like he was the only real player in the field. Certainly the infield.

Ceetar
Jun 12 2012 05:08 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Frayed Knot wrote:
You people do realize that Quintanilla is hitting .314/.442/.514 as a Met -- and that aside from turning Jeter's 80 foot roller into a double the other day (one AB after his 60 foot single) that he's been playing pretty good 'D' too, right?

I mean, yeah it's a small sample size and I'd like to see Tejada back as much as anyone. But, for in the short term anyway, finding a stop-gap SS is way down on the list of priorities.
Certainly it's behind getting the 'power positions' of 1B & LF to say maybe get a ball out of the infield more than once a week. I'd also slot it in back of finding a reliever with an ERA of less than 6.00


that's actually Q's second 'big' error though It's just bad luck that both came in those spots instead of worthless 2-out dribblers in the second inning. Certainly though it's a race against the clock to see if the bloom comes off Quintanilla's hitting rose and Tejada (or at least Cedeno?) returning.

and i'm still pissed Jeter got a hit on that. I swear 1000 of his hits must be infield squibs that he hit so badly they have so much spin and bounce weird or die in the grass for him to beat out.

Nymr83
Jun 12 2012 06:56 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Edgy DC wrote:
I don't know about "you people." This is Ashie's refrain.

If he qualified, Quint would be leading all National League shortstops in OPS. Defensively, the game I was at in Washington, it felt like he was the only real player in the field. Certainly the infield.


Are you insulting Niewenhuis or was he not in the field that day?

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 06:59 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

"Certainly though it's a race against the clock to see if the bloom comes off Quintanilla's hitting rose and Tejada (or at least Cedeno?) returning."

It's not like either one of those guys is a lock either.

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 07:41 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I'm fine with Q. It's all about the bullpen, bullpen, bullpen...I have no cahnfidence.

Over half of the Mets in 2012 losses have come when the starters have turned a lead or tie over to the bullpen. Yuck!

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 07:52 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Nymr83 wrote:
Edgy DC wrote:
I don't know about "you people." This is Ashie's refrain.

If he qualified, Quint would be leading all National League shortstops in OPS. Defensively, the game I was at in Washington, it felt like he was the only real player in the field. Certainly the infield.


Are you insulting Niewenhuis or was he not in the field that day?


Niewie made a good enough catch at one point, but in general, there was just this seeming contagious lack of cahnfidence as the game progressed, and everybody was letting the ball play them.

G-Fafif
Jun 12 2012 02:23 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Nieuwenhuis-CF
Valdespin-DH
Wright-3B
Duda-RF
Murphy-2B
Davis-1B
Bay-LF
Thole-C
Quintanilla-SS

And Young to pitch.

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 02:34 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Valdespin-DH

This is why the NL never seems to measure up in these inter-league tilts.

G-Fafif
Jun 12 2012 02:36 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

The one guy who seems to love swinging first, seeing the pitch later in the slot where presumably you want somebody who's super selective.

So crazy it might, uh, work?

Ceetar
Jun 12 2012 02:58 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Zobrist scratched.

Jennings 7, Pena 3, Upton 8, Joyce 9, Rhymes 4, Matsui DH, Molina 2, Johnson 6, Rodriguez 5, Cobb 1

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 03:02 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

G-Fafif wrote:
The one guy who seems to love swinging first, seeing the pitch later in the slot where presumably you want somebody who's super selective.

So crazy it might, uh, work?


I don't see why he's DHing and Muffy is playing second.

Ceetar
Jun 12 2012 04:11 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
G-Fafif wrote:
The one guy who seems to love swinging first, seeing the pitch later in the slot where presumably you want somebody who's super selective.

So crazy it might, uh, work?


I don't see why he's DHing and Muffy is playing second.


the groundballs hit to second aren't appreciably easier to handle than the ones hit to short.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 04:25 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I don;t know what this has to do with ss. There's virtually no chance Valdespin would be a worse fielder than Muffy.

Ceetar
Jun 12 2012 04:27 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I don;t know what this has to do with ss. There's virtually no chance Valdespin would be a worse fielder than Muffy.


I think it's practically a given.

Ashie62
Jun 12 2012 04:35 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

This series has disaster written all over it..Team aint hittin..AL Rules and Par..very good opponent.

Prove me wrong Amazins.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 04:43 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Ceetar wrote:
John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I don;t know what this has to do with ss. There's virtually no chance Valdespin would be a worse fielder than Muffy.


I think it's practically a given.


??

Let's go back to what this has to do with SS.

Or not.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 12 2012 04:50 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Rays don't stand a chance tonight. Not with Dickey and his Radically Altered knuckler. We could beat 'em even with eight Jason Bays in the lineup.

metirish
Jun 12 2012 04:52 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I thought Q was giving a decent showing at SS? , Valdespin is one of a few players who shouldn't be playing up here.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 12 2012 05:20 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Rays don't stand a chance tonight. Not with Dickey and his Radically Altered knuckler. We could beat 'em even with eight Jason Bays in the lineup.


Never mind.

Lefty Specialist
Jun 12 2012 05:23 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Young throwing 83 MPH fastballs. I hope this works.

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 05:36 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Second game in a row with a runner on 3d, less than 2 outs, and they don't get the runner in.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 05:48 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

metirish wrote:
I thought Q was giving a decent showing at SS? , Valdespin is one of a few players who shouldn't be playing up here.


Got more homers than the regular second baseman.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 06:47 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

OK, fans let's look alive out there! Big chance for Jordanarama here.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 06:48 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
OK, fans let's look alive out there! Big chance for Jordanarama here.


oooh yeah!

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 06:48 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

TransMonk wrote:
Valdespin-DH

This is why the NL never seems to measure up in these inter-league tilts.

I take it back. NKOTB delivers!

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 06:51 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Clearly a genius DH call by Terry.
I knew it all along.



But another thing, if Muffy is going to not hit HRs I'd like to see him quit striking out while doing so.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 06:54 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Y'know what I hate? ... when the game you're watching is in between innings and the other three you're monitoring are all in between innings at the same time.
It happens more than you'd think is logical.

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 07:04 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Would anybody here object if Collins benched Murphy for a few games and started Valdespin at 2B?

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 07:13 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Nifty pick, but he looked safe to me.

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 07:17 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

His name am Jon Rauch
He big as a couch
Lord help him throw it
To the guy in the crouch

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 07:21 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Mets are into the pen with nine outs to get.

Over/Under on the number of pitchers it'll take to get there: 4.5.

Mets, we need runz.

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 07:21 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Chris Young, oh, Chris Young
Just like that, you're done
A snail's pace is faster
Than the shit that you flung

Fman99
Jun 12 2012 07:23 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Byrdak warming up for the bottom of the 7th. I will be counting the outs nervously.

Hey, wild idea. How about the Mets score some more runs? Is that permitted?

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 07:25 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Fman with a re-write of my post.

Alex Cobb, afraid to throw a strike to Nieuie.

Hey, didn't he direct Sid & Nancy?

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 07:27 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Ask, and you receive.

Jordanny delivers again.

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 07:28 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Valdy is trying to set a record in the category of hits:meaningful hits ratio.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 12 2012 07:29 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

TM/LWFS : Jordany :: JCL : Raconteur/Artiste Dickey

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 12 2012 07:35 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I couldn't explain to you what Gary meant by "reverse English" on that Duda squibber, but I know exactly what he meant.

Bases dranked.

Fman99
Jun 12 2012 07:35 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

YEAH MUFFIE!

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 07:36 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

A bunch of runs. Get some more, Mets!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 12 2012 07:36 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Murphdemption.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 07:37 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Muffy lives.

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 07:39 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 12 2012 07:40 PM

About frigging time... Murphy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 07:39 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Holy Smokes.

Fman99
Jun 12 2012 07:39 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

YEAH IKEY!

TransMonk
Jun 12 2012 07:40 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!



Dang, Ike.

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 07:40 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

About frigging time... Davis.

metsguyinmichigan
Jun 12 2012 07:40 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

TransMonk wrote:
Valdespin-DH

This is why the NL never seems to measure up in these inter-league tilts.


Jordanny says "Take that, Monk!"

Fman99
Jun 12 2012 07:41 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Wow, this whole thing started with two out and no one on base. Good thing I prompted them to, you know, score some runs and shit.

Jason Bay, meanwhile, should choke on a hockey jersey.

metsguyinmichigan
Jun 12 2012 07:42 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Bay really is awful.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 07:46 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

So with nine outs to go and a seven run lead, I'm guessing this game is like a 50/50 toss-up, right?

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 07:46 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Bay is 0 for 15 since coming off the DL.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 07:48 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Nieuwenhuis much better able to see the ball against the ceiling now that the sun has set.

Wait, what?!?

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 07:50 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Gary is reading the forum because he just said what FK just wrote.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2012 07:50 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

bmfc1 wrote:
Bay is 0 for 15 since coming off the DL.


He's the New Ike Davis.

PiggiesTomatoes
Jun 12 2012 07:52 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Let's hope the bullpen can hold it together and they continue the juggernaut tomorrow. Kids and I should be behind the Mets dugout.

PiggiesTomatoes
Jun 12 2012 07:54 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
bmfc1 wrote:
Bay is 0 for 15 since coming off the DL.


He's the New Ike Davis.

After tonight, maybe the Old Ike Davis.

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 07:55 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

PiggiesTomatoes wrote:
Let's hope the bullpen can hold it together and they continue the juggernaut tomorrow. Kids and I should be behind the Mets dugout.

Let us know where you are tomorrow so we can look for you.

Chad Ochoseis
Jun 12 2012 07:56 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Fman99 wrote:
YEAH IKEY!


I'm out of town and not watching the game. How well does that Tampa Bay infield shift work at stopping home runs?

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 08:00 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Chad Ochoseis wrote:
Fman99 wrote:
YEAH IKEY!


I'm out of town and not watching the game. How well does that Tampa Bay infield shift work at stopping home runs?


Maddon didn't play his fielders high enough.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 08:02 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Cesar Ramos pitching.
Looks pretty good considering all those years playing the Joker on the old Batman series.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 08:07 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Man this is turning into a long-ass game!

PiggiesTomatoes
Jun 12 2012 08:08 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

bmfc1 wrote:
PiggiesTomatoes wrote:
Let's hope the bullpen can hold it together and they continue the juggernaut tomorrow. Kids and I should be behind the Mets dugout.

Let us know where you are tomorrow so we can look for you.

We'll be in Sect. 113. How about you?

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 08:10 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

PiggiesTomatoes wrote:
PiggiesTomatoes wrote:
Let's hope the bullpen can hold it together and they continue the juggernaut tomorrow. Kids and I should be behind the Mets dugout.

Let us know where you are tomorrow so we can look for you.

We'll be in Sect. 113. How about you?

I should have been clearer... we'll look for you on TV.

bmfc1
Jun 12 2012 08:11 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

What a nice surprise tonight. 11 runs over the 3 games seemed like a lot. MFY fans should thank us tomorrow.

PiggiesTomatoes
Jun 12 2012 08:14 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

If tonight's any indication, we should be easy to spot. I feel for the Rays. The put a great product on the field but that stadium is in the middle of St. Pete, pain in the ass to get to and out of. They've got to move them to this side of the bay.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 08:15 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

11 is our high for the season.
Of course we've surpassed that in runs allowed several times.

metsguyinmichigan
Jun 12 2012 08:19 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

PiggiesTomatoes wrote:
Let's hope the bullpen can hold it together and they continue the juggernaut tomorrow. Kids and I should be behind the Mets dugout.



That's awesome!

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 08:21 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I am SO HAPPY!

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 08:29 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

[bigpurple:3ej5rpwb]I am SO HAPPY![/bigpurple:3ej5rpwb]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jun 12 2012 08:31 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Wheeeeeeeeeeee!

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 12 2012 08:32 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

bmfc1 wrote:
Gary is reading the forum because he just said what FK just wrote.


There's no doubt, at least in my mind, that Gary lurks here. I've noticed two or three other recent GC references that mirrored comments here, and the nature of the CPF posts and GC's timing is too coincidental.

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 08:48 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Frayed Knot wrote:
Man this is turning into a long-ass game!

I often hear Keith echoing Frayed Knot too.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2012 08:53 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I think it was the "Chin Up" comment in the subject heading that did it for us.
So in honor ...

[youtube:2x4q2dg2]qZBFNbr2blI[/youtube:2x4q2dg2]

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2012 08:57 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

TransMonk wrote:
Valdespin-DH

This is why the NL never seems to measure up in these inter-league tilts.

Valdy force-feeding the good monk some crow tonight. Gotta appreciate his usage of "tilts," thought.

metirish
Jun 13 2012 05:38 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Didn't stay up for this but checking the box score and the Mets get 14 hits and Bay none of them,awful.

Nice win.

Ashie62
Jun 13 2012 08:19 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

bmfc1 wrote:
Gary is reading the forum because he just said what FK just wrote.


Isn't there a member GYC17 with a picture of Mex "In the Booth" for location." ?

Edgy MD
Jun 13 2012 08:23 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Interesting thought. GYC lists "UB, New Jersey" has his location. I think our broadcaster lives in Connecticut, for what that's worth.

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 13 2012 08:38 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I can't imagine Keith going undercover. He doesn't seem like he could resist the urge to reveal his Keithness.

metirish
Jun 13 2012 08:44 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Coehn surely knows about the place, he is mates with a member here.

Ceetar
Jun 13 2012 08:45 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I should print a page of the forum and get Gary to sign it on Friday then!

Edgy MD
Jun 13 2012 08:47 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I guess it's time to come clean.

I'm Keith Hernandez.

MFS62
Jun 13 2012 09:06 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Edgy DC wrote:
I guess it's time to come clean.

I'm Keith Hernandez.

Then I'm Gary Cohen.
Think about it - when was the last time I posted during a game?
(Those of you who have met me, hush.)
Later

Ashie62
Jun 13 2012 10:12 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

I always thought it might be Cohen using the Keith references as a joke and or subterfuge.There, I said it, subterfuge.

Lefty Specialist
Jun 13 2012 11:17 AM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

MFS62 wrote:
Edgy DC wrote:
I guess it's time to come clean.

I'm Keith Hernandez.

Then I'm Gary Cohen.
Think about it - when was the last time I posted during a game?
(Those of you who have met me, hush.)
Later


You've got the Connecticut part down, and you, uh, have the, uh, Connecticut part down.......

Besides, I....er, I mean GARY, can surely multitask during a game. Keith's on his phone texting all the time.

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 13 2012 12:23 PM
Re: IGT Mets & Rays 6/12/12 - Chin up!

Does Gary have a middle name that starts with a Y? Yvonne, perhaps?