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After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in 2012)

metsmarathon Jul 12 2012 08:27 PM

honestly, i don't understand why the NCAA should punish penn state football over teh sandusky scandal, beyond perhaps requiring that anyone with blood on their hands gtfo. it wasn't a football scandal, it had nothing to do with student athletics. it was a criminal coverup, sure, but that's not their purview. let me put it this way. if joe pa was having sex with an intern he hired just to be his fuck-bunny, and even if he used football funds to pay her salary and buy her things, and even if the university covered it up, it still wouldn't be a football problem. it's a criminal issue and will surely also be a civil issue. the criminal is already behind bars, and those who enabled it are getting their comeuppance as well. why punish more innocents? it's bloodlust, nothing more. bobby petrino drunk-crashed his motorcycle which he shared with his intern fuck-bunny. no ncaa repercussions. how is this appreciably different, except in scale? its like getting busted for a dui, and the homeowners association demands you change the color of your house. its unrelated. joe pa's posthumously released letter, while in many ways wrong headed, was right about one thing - its not a football scandal. it's far worse. but its not a football scandal.

Edgy MD Jul 12 2012 09:09 PM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

I tend to agree with you. I'm not sure I've seen 100% of the angles though. And your invocation of fuckbunnies has clouded my mind, anyhow.

Ceetar Jul 12 2012 09:41 PM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Which also means it doesn't need to be ENDLESSLY discussed on _sports_ stations, especially outside of Pennsylvania. Now, if you want to talk about it on news stations, instead of things like Tom Cruise and Katie Homes.. But because he was idolized (by many anyway, I didn't know who he was until this) by so many in the sports community they feel the need to discuss it I guess. Maybe they feel like they want blood/punishment for being duped for liking what turned out to be a person capable of horrible things? I don't get why the NCAA is involved either. But I don't get a lot of things they do and have a general distaste for the way the entire system is run and promoted.

Fman99 Jul 13 2012 04:15 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Edgy DC wrote: I tend to agree with you. I'm not sure I've seen 100% of the angles though. And your invocation of fuckbunnies has clouded my mind, anyhow. I'd like to go on the record as being pro fuck-bunny and anti child-molestation.

metsmarathon Jul 13 2012 06:37 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

i understand why its a sports story, in the same way tiger's transgressions were a sports story - they involved a prominent figure in sports, therefore its a sports story. it affects the college football program, and therefore affects those who root for and against penn state. so its a sports story. what i don't like about it is the notion that this undercuts the idea that you can build a college football rpogram within the rules, by developing student athletes, and by followinghte rules of the NCAA. joe pa showed that you can be successful and still clean in college football (so far as we know). unfortunately, he failed the biggest challenge he would face in that he failed to apply the same morality and high standards to life in general. it doesn't mean everything he trisd to stand up for and build his program around is utter bullshit. it just means he was a coward who couldn't apply the same to the bigger picture, real world stuff that's actually important. and hte bloodlust about it bothers me. the whole notion of, "i'm tired of hearing how clean penn states program was. they're dirty like the rest of them. joe pa is a sham. blow up the whole thing! my school is still awesome!" is wrong. the football program itself played within the rules, and did so successfully. there's just no reason to drag that into the mess. you can still build a successful college football program that does not cheat. penn state showed us that. and it also showed us that, while it's important to play sports with high moral standards, if you don't extend those high moral standards to life, you've failed.

Ceetar Jul 13 2012 06:52 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

metsmarathon wrote: and hte bloodlust about it bothers me. the whole notion of, "i'm tired of hearing how clean penn states program was. they're dirty like the rest of them. joe pa is a sham. blow up the whole thing! my school is still awesome!" is wrong. the football program itself played within the rules, and did so successfully. there's just no reason to drag that into the mess. That's why I don't think it's a all-encompassing, ignore everything else story. I get that it's a sports figure, even if it's a sport that I think is like 18th on my list of importance, but the 24/7 coverage where they repeat much of the same calls and opinions they did last time they talked about? I feel the same way about Tiger and LT and whatever story takes over. The bloodlust is..I dunno, it's like if they give him credit for anything at all they're suddenly 'supporting him'. It feels similar to the Ozzie Guillen Fidel Castro remarks. He wasn't really supporting communism or dictators or any of the crazy evil stuff he did, but it was praise of a bad person and that doesn't fly.

themetfairy Jul 13 2012 07:06 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

For years Joe Paterno's character was used as a selling point for this program, from recruiting to ticket sales to television ratings. If we were sold a bill of goods, then it is an issue. This may well be college football's Watergate, and we will never innocently trust in a program the same way again. Yes, this story is bigger than sports. But it has many, many tentacles.

Ceetar Jul 13 2012 07:11 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

themetfairy wrote: This may well be college football's Watergate, and we will never innocently trust in a program the same way again. nah. People will blindly trust the next 'big thing' and then be shocked and appalled when they peak behind that curtain too. And not just in college sports.

Frayed Knot Jul 13 2012 07:20 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Ceetar wrote: Which also means it doesn't need to be ENDLESSLY discussed on _sports_ stations, especially outside of Pennsylvania. Now, if you want to talk about it on news stations, instead of things like Tom Cruise and Katie Homes.. But because he was idolized (by many anyway, I didn't know who he was until this) by so many in the sports community they feel the need to discuss it I guess. Maybe they feel like they want blood/punishment for being duped for liking what turned out to be a person capable of horrible things? I don't get why the NCAA is involved either. But I don't get a lot of things they do and have a general distaste for the way the entire system is run and promoted. If the games involving the football team are to be discussed outside of the state of Pennsylvania then the actions of those running the program need to be discussed outside the state too. You can't claim that what happens on the field is nationally important but the scandals surrounding it not. (On a side-note I suppose a separate discussion could be held as to WHY the results of local games which should only be of interest to students and alums of those particular colleges is national news in the first place, but somehow it is, therefore this is too.) The larger reason why this IS a sports story is because those who covered up this series of crimes did so specifically to shelter the football program and those who ran it. I'd like to think the ones "endlessly discussing" this might actually learn something during their flogging of the topic about the folly of maintaining a culture of reverence towards sports coaches who, because of recruiting and/or coaching prowess (or really good cheating), win consistently over the years. But instead I suspect that this just means that "Joe Pa" gets crossed off their list as one of the venerated ones ("Hey, how were we to know?") while they continue to give the same unquestioned hands-off treatment to the likes of the sainted "Jimmy V" (despite his forced resignation), or the current "Coach Cal" (ignoring his several vacated seasons due to rampant cheating), or any of the other entrenched and powerful heads of State-U. whose measure of importance and idolatry is considered commensurate with their W/L record.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2012 07:29 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Ceetar wrote: metsmarathon wrote: I get that it's a sports figure, even if it's a sport that I hink is like 18th on my list of importance, but the 24/7 coverage where they repeat much of the same calls and opinions they did last time they talked about? I feel the same way about Tiger and LT and whatever story takes over. Well, the redundancy you're describing is pretty much the reality of listening to oversaturated 24-hour sports radio. They repeat stuff. And really, the hosts, not being the experts they pretend to be, can only look at it from so many facets. Add that to the fact that... there aren't too many other stories! Basketball, football, and hockey are on hiatus. Wimbledon is over, and a for'ner won that. Few give a shit about that anyway. The Tour de France is on, but far fewer give a shit about cycling, and the favorites aren't 'Mericans there either, and the hosts don't know anything about either of those sports anyway. Baseball's on mid-summer recess. So, there's the Freeh's report. Outside of Reggie Jackson's big mouth, it's the only thing rolling off the wire.* And college football and sex are two topics these guys are not shy about speaking to. *And make no mistake, the art of this format is just pontificating about what comes off the wire. If these guys had to find their own news, they'd starve to death.

Ceetar Jul 13 2012 07:37 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

maybe that's why it's bothering me, because it's not even close to approaching _intelligent_ discussion on the topic. I'm clearly setting the bar too high. But yeah, I guess i'm mixing up my distaste for sports radio with the actual story. The story's just too real to be bombarded by with half-assed discussion. I suppose it's not that much worse than dissecting what Dwight Howard may or may not be thinking.

SteveJRogers Jul 13 2012 08:40 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

themetfairy wrote: For years Joe Paterno's character was used as a selling point for this program, from recruiting to ticket sales to television ratings. If we were sold a bill of goods, then it is an issue. This may well be college football's Watergate, and we will never innocently trust in a program the same way again. Yes, this story is bigger than sports. But it has many, many tentacles. Exactly. This is why it's covered, and reacted to, differently than the Petrino, or even the Rick Pitino extortion stories. Because you'd come to expect such nonsense coming from coaches whom routinely get hit with at least rumors of recruiting violations (or worse when it comes to protecting kids both academically and socially) as well as breaking contracts as soon as the next big job opens up to them. Unless you were like Ceetar whom never pays attention to college football, you never heard a single bad thing about the guy (well, maybe as an ego driven perfectionist) who seemed to be content enough with his kingdom in Happy Valley that he never thought of going to a bigger school or the NFL. In a way, no wonder someone like Ceetar would never have heard of the guy because he was never part of the endless background noise of the latest college football or basketball coach in legal or NCAA hot water or looking to go to another program or the NFL despite being under a contract.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2012 08:42 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

I may be in the minority, but I think way too much of this is centered around Paterno and indicting his legacy.

SteveJRogers Jul 13 2012 08:45 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Frayed Knot wrote: (On a side-note I suppose a separate discussion could be held as to WHY the results of local games which should only be of interest to students and alums of those particular colleges is national news in the first place, but somehow it is, therefore this is too.) Well, we'd have to go all the way back to the first office pool for the March Madness (TM) tournament! In all seriousness, the Pandora's Box on that issue has probably been open since the very first Rose Bowl parade.

Ceetar Jul 13 2012 08:49 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

SteveJRogers wrote: In a way, no wonder someone like Ceetar would never have heard of the guy because he was never part of the endless background noise of the latest college football or basketball coach in legal or NCAA hot water or looking to go to another program or the NFL despite being under a contract. a caller on my drive in before I switched to 105.9 claimed that most coaches/programs in NCAA must have had an idea about it otherwise Paterno would've been offered other jobs.

SteveJRogers Jul 13 2012 08:53 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Edgy DC wrote: Basketball, football, are on hiatus. YABUT...YABUT...Free agency, the Draft, transactions and training camps! And the Olympics! Football and Basketball are now 365/7 discussion sports on ESPN! Seriously though, can you imagine if ESPN ever decided to give as much time to baseball talk in January-February as they do basketball and football in July?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2012 09:00 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Paterno's image-- the exception to the usual football-factory business, the "doing it the right way" guy-- wasn't used to sell the program... it built Penn State. More so than Wooden did UCLA, or Bowden did Florida State, or X did X Polytechnic... for multiple generations of alumni, friends of alumni, co-workers, members of the press and general public, Paterno WAS Penn State. And as to the lack of other job offers... well, for the better part of a half-century, he ran a fiefdom that encompassed about 1/3 of a large state and-- thanks to a hyperactive alumni network and decades of St. Joe branding-- extended influence throughout the northeast. What other job would Paterno WANT?

metsmarathon Jul 13 2012 09:09 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Edgy DC wrote: I may be in the minority, but I think way too much of this is centered around Paterno and indicting his legacy. i share in your minority. i don't really care what the verdict and the report means for paterno's legacy, as if that's the greatest concern - how we look back years from now on a college football program from yearas gone by. in a sports sense, the greater impact is on tarnishing the notion that a clean football program can be run and can be successfull, and possibly too hte potential impact of whatever sancitons are unfairly and unjustly levied by the ncaa upon the current students and student athletes at penn state. and all this pales in comparison to the terrible impact that sandusky and the inactions of the penn state leadership had on the lives of countless innocent victims, of whom we can count at least ten (i think). lives were ruined, innocence stolen, and we care about how we'll look back on the now-deceased winninest college football coach? boo fucking hoo.

Edgy MD Jul 13 2012 09:22 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

This is something I wrote to my friend Rich yesterday. [list:3bxwdwsb]I'm not a parent so I admit this doesn't hit as close to home to me. I just worry that if we merely think vindictively against the institutions where this pops up --- the Church, Penn State, Syracuse U. --- we miss the greater issue of where it will pop up next and what we'll do then. I remain convinced, for instance, that if a typical young parent family sees ol' Uncle Alfonse acting a little squirrelly around their kids, their main response would be to make a note to stay away from Uncle Alfonse --- not visit him and if he shows up at a neutral event, keep the kids clear and keep one eye on him, maybe leave early. But the uncomfortable but necessary job of confronting Alf, and seeing if there are any victims and checking on his story and turning to the police and risking tearing the family open with a paucity of evidence --- this would either never happen, or happen way too late when the victims are grown and one courageously speaks out. I wonder if we're maybe where we were on DWIs 40 years ago.[/list:u:3bxwdwsb] Again, I readily admit that I'm not seeing 100% of the angles.

Frayed Knot Jul 13 2012 10:56 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

SteveJRogers wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: (On a side-note I suppose a separate discussion could be held as to WHY the results of local games which should only be of interest to students and alums of those particular colleges is national news in the first place, but somehow it is, therefore this is too.) Well, we'd have to go all the way back to the first office pool for the March Madness (TM) tournament! In all seriousness, the Pandora's Box on that issue has probably been open since the very first Rose Bowl parade. College football and basketball both preceded, and for a long time were thought to exceed in quality, their pro-version cousins. IOW, the notion of a great college team being worthy of national attention dates back to a day long before ESPN, or before the NCAA ever stole the phrase "March Madness". It's actually a remnant of the mostly English tradition of class separation. Their idea of amateurism not only barred those being paid for their efforts but often even those who did manual labor for a living and therefore came upon their muscles as the result of hard work. Barring them kept the sons of Oxford and the sons of Cambridge in competition mainly with each other to decide who was "best". The Olympic ideal of amateurism (phony though it was) as being superior to that of crass professionalism was born of this same elitist view as were college sports in America. Why this view still resonates with so many today confounds me to a degree. I understand the appeal of college sports among those who have a connection with a particular college, but the idea of treating that whole level as merely a different version of a pro sport has always struck me as a bit odd. Yes, a ton of it is ESPN-driven; college hoops & football comprise such a large portion of their programming that their hires tend to be those totally immersed in those sports and their natural inclinations (not to mention their marching orders) are to hype what they're most interested in. But hearing 35-70 y/o "adults" (for lack of a better term) acting all caught up in the youthful rivalries and insider spirit which, for the most part, have nothing to do with them has always seemed weird to me.

cooby Jul 13 2012 11:10 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

As most of you know, I have strong personal ties with Penn State University. And I have admired JoePa right along with most everyone else around here. (here being Central PA, not CPF) But I heartily applaud this comment: lives were ruined, innocence stolen, and we care about how we'll look back on the now-deceased winninest college football coach? boo fucking hoo. metsmarathon, you hit it right on the head.

Mets – Willets Point Jul 13 2012 11:24 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Frayed Knot wrote: I understand the appeal of college sports among those who have a connection with a particular college, but the idea of treating that whole level as merely a different version of a pro sport has always struck me as a bit odd. Yes, a ton of it is ESPN-driven; college hoops & football comprise such a large portion of their programming that their hires tend to be those totally immersed in those sports and their natural inclinations (not to mention their marching orders) are to hype what they're most interested in. But hearing 35-70 y/o "adults" (for lack of a better term) acting all caught up in the youthful rivalries and insider spirit which, for the most part, have nothing to do with them has always seemed weird to me. I mostly agree with this, although I can see how a collegiate team can be a big draw and point of pride in parts of the country that aren't close to big league teams. And maybe even in a big city. I actually really got into college hockey once I moved to Boston because I found the game on the ice more entertaining than the NHL, and the price and atmosphere better than at a Bruins game, so I guess college sports have other attractions as well.

Ceetar Jul 13 2012 11:48 AM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I understand the appeal of college sports among those who have a connection with a particular college, but the idea of treating that whole level as merely a different version of a pro sport has always struck me as a bit odd. Yes, a ton of it is ESPN-driven; college hoops & football comprise such a large portion of their programming that their hires tend to be those totally immersed in those sports and their natural inclinations (not to mention their marching orders) are to hype what they're most interested in. But hearing 35-70 y/o "adults" (for lack of a better term) acting all caught up in the youthful rivalries and insider spirit which, for the most part, have nothing to do with them has always seemed weird to me. I mostly agree with this, although I can see how a collegiate team can be a big draw and point of pride in parts of the country that aren't close to big league teams. And maybe even in a big city. I actually really got into college hockey once I moved to Boston because I found the game on the ice more entertaining than the NHL, and the price and atmosphere better than at a Bruins game, so I guess college sports have other attractions as well. And to an extent it is much lesser in NYC and many pro towns, despite the increase in ESPNesque programming and marketing. Where it loses me is when it's hyped and promoted as being on par with professionals, when it's very very clearly not. So it's treated as a sort of minor league for the NBA and NFL (those being the bigger ones) but it's some sort of cardinal sin for the players that they're making millions off of to get so much as a free jacket from someone or hell a check to help their parents pay the mortgage. And most of the serious players get, at best, a paper diploma with very little actual learning behind it. (Not to say athletes don't get a real degree, but the level of commitment and effort needed to do both is extraordinary and unless a kid is really really gungho about the education, he's going to put his focus in the athletics. I think college, and even minor leagues, are experiencing some what of a change here due to the rising prices of pro sports everywhere. Baseball's still usually the best value, but even that's getting harder. So the cheaper and more fan friendly (due to the lesser draw clearly) minor leagues look appealing. I'm convinced you could become a huge fan of just about any sport given the right situation. You get a bunch of friends into a WNBA team at the same time, and root for and follow them together, go to some games, have some beers, learn the players..you'll become emotionally invested. And that's what makes you a fan. Honestly, I don't know why they don't hand out practically free Liberty tickets with every Knicks ticket.

Frayed Knot Jul 13 2012 12:32 PM Re: Apropos of Nothing in 2012

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I understand the appeal of college sports among those who have a connection with a particular college, but the idea of treating that whole level as merely a different version of a pro sport has always struck me as a bit odd. Yes, a ton of it is ESPN-driven; college hoops & football comprise such a large portion of their programming that their hires tend to be those totally immersed in those sports and their natural inclinations (not to mention their marching orders) are to hype what they're most interested in. But hearing 35-70 y/o "adults" (for lack of a better term) acting all caught up in the youthful rivalries and insider spirit which, for the most part, have nothing to do with them has always seemed weird to me. I mostly agree with this, although I can see how a collegiate team can be a big draw and point of pride in parts of the country that aren't close to big league teams. And maybe even in a big city. I actually really got into college hockey once I moved to Boston because I found the game on the ice more entertaining than the NHL, and the price and atmosphere better than at a Bruins game, so I guess college sports have other attractions as well. Sure. I'm not meaning to put down college sports, I just think their purpose tends to get fucked up when folks start treating them as just a different version of a pro sports league when it serves their purpose (like when THEY are getting tons of money and exposure from it) but then turn around and hide behind the the excuse that they're some kind of character-building amateur outfit whenever scrutiny comes their way. and all this pales in comparison to the terrible impact that sandusky and the inactions of the penn state leadership had on the lives of countless innocent victims, of whom we can count at least ten (i think). lives were ruined, innocence stolen, and we care about how we'll look back on the now-deceased winninest college football coach? boo fucking hoo. What you have to remember is that those who are leading this discussion DO only look at this from a Paterno/legacy viewpoint because their faith in the superiority of college sports is built upon creating larger-than-life legends in the first place.

Met Hunter Jul 13 2012 03:23 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

I may be totally missing the point, but to me it is a football scandal. A football coach was raping young boys on the football grounds. He used the team and all its enormous perks to lure children into his fold. The head coach (at the very least) knew of the sex with young boys on his watch and under his nose and chose to protect the football program, over exposing a child sexual predator. One of his assistant coaches witnessed a rape of a young boy by the football coach in the teams shower and nothing other that discussing it in house was done about it. As far as I'm concerned, screw the program and everything it represents. I could care less if Penn State ever plays another down of football. I draw the line of protecting the brand at the expense of young children. I've always been a college football fan, particularly a Penn State fan. Thats all changed for me knowing what was going on while I was blindly cheering on a team and respecting the leader of that program for his ethics and principles. What a crock of shit. I have five children of my own, but you don't have to be a parent to feel anger toward these people. The predator is a sick fuck. Joe Pa was a selfish scumbag and can rot in hell. My principles are worth more than some stupid fucking football team.

metsmarathon Jul 13 2012 10:16 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

if a mechanical engineering professor was raping young boys in the machine shop, using the faciilities and the history of the program to lure kids into his orbit, if the head of the department knew of it and looked hte other way, if a teaching assistant witnessed it and did virtually nothing, would it be a mechanical engineering scandal? would it mean that the school's mechanical engineering accreditation should be stripped? its a football scandal that has nothing to do with football. and, honestly, almost nothing to do with the ncaa. if penn state were to choose to blow up the program, fine. if massive pressure from the citizenry of pennsylvania were to demand it, fine. if the victims sue for the dismantling of the stadium, awesome. i don't think it falls to the ncaa. i mean, really, the problem went so far beyond the football program - the university president looked the other way while a sexual predator roamed freely on his campus - that if the ncaa were to wave a big stick, it should probably kick the whole fucking school out of college athletics. i could understand if the ncaa were to go as far as to put the program on probation, and to demand that anybody with any trace of blood on their hands not be involved with the school and the football program in any way, lest the school be barred from competition, but if they were to give the death sentence to penn state football, are they really punishing the right people?

Edgy MD Jul 14 2012 08:43 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

I don't necessarily go with the head-of-the-department-looking-the-other-way argument. A report came up in 1998, it was thoroughly investigated by multiple agencies, and he was (quite sadly) cleared. [crossout]Paterno forced his resignation anyway[/crossout]. (This isn't true.) When a second report came up in 2001, when Sandusky was no longer under his authority, Paterno passed it on to the administration. This is certainly less than we all like to think we'd do in a similar situation. Certainly. Also, when Sandusky's career ended, it ended more-or-less honorably when it shouldn't have. The team scored a shutout in a bowl game, and his defense showered him in Gatorade. That sucks and it's pretty shameful, but neither is it the equivalent of years of rape going on that Paterno knew about and grinned about and allowed to happen because it was helping him win football games. Paterno failed to recognized the horror of the problem before him, but the way I see it, hundreds of others must've. And what we've got to do is come to a better understanding as a society of how to recognize this when it appears, how to understand it (because I think we're mostly all pretty terrible at processing it), and how to respond. Because we could dig up Paterno and shoot him 100 times, and maybe we'll all feel great about it, but I'm not sure it would help child one.

Centerfield Jul 16 2012 01:39 PM Joe Paterno

I'm thinking you have to take down the statue.

Edgy MD Jul 16 2012 01:48 PM Re: Joe Paterno

Mind if I merge with the Freeh Report thread?

Met Hunter Jul 16 2012 04:35 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

metsmarathon wrote: if a mechanical engineering professor was raping young boys in the machine shop, using the faciilities and the history of the program to lure kids into his orbit, if the head of the department knew of it and looked hte other way, if a teaching assistant witnessed it and did virtually nothing, would it be a mechanical engineering scandal? would it mean that the school's mechanical engineering accreditation should be stripped? its a football scandal that has nothing to do with football. and, honestly, almost nothing to do with the ncaa. if penn state were to choose to blow up the program, fine. if massive pressure from the citizenry of pennsylvania were to demand it, fine. if the victims sue for the dismantling of the stadium, awesome. i don't think it falls to the ncaa. i mean, really, the problem went so far beyond the football program - the university president looked the other way while a sexual predator roamed freely on his campus - that if the ncaa were to wave a big stick, it should probably kick the whole fucking school out of college athletics. i could understand if the ncaa were to go as far as to put the program on probation, and to demand that anybody with any trace of blood on their hands not be involved with the school and the football program in any way, lest the school be barred from competition, but if they were to give the death sentence to penn state football, are they really punishing the right people? If a mechancal engineering professor was raping little boys, Paterno would have been the first person to out him because it has nothing to do with his narrow world. He would have been sick and disgusted. Joe protected Sandusky not out of a kinship (we hope) for the creep, but to protect his precious empire and his all righteous bullshit football program. It was all about football. Its so disgusting what he did (Paterno) it makes me ashamed to be a sports fan and give even an inkling that Penn State football or any program can even compare in importance to what those young men lost in those showers. Joe created that. Thats his true legacy. His family and the school will pay through their pockets. Just like with the church, this will never go away.

Met Hunter Jul 16 2012 04:47 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

And switch all those titles to "police" and tell me that wouldn't affect any police department. Sandusky was a long time NCAA coach. Someone who used his NCAA coaching and NCAA team connections to lure children into his sick world by using NCAA events as bait. Even raping children on the road at hotels used for NCAA teams. Paterno was a longtime NCAA coach. A longtime criminal accessory to child sex crimes under the NCAA's watch. He represents the NCAA. He rolled the dice with his team and its program and at long last he crapped out.

metsmarathon Jul 16 2012 07:59 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

yeah, i've come around. it was a gross failure of the culture, and the culture needs to be punished. moreover, the culture needs a shot fired across its bow, at other schools, that there are things more important than football. and if they fuck those up, they fuck up football too.

Frayed Knot Jul 16 2012 08:08 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Then, beyond the question of what the NCAA should do, is the question of what they Will do. It's hard for even the folks who follow this stuff to predict how the NCAA will act because they don't seem to follow any predictable pattern and this particular situation doesn't exactly have a precedent. Then there's the thought that the NCAA doesn't have as much power as it used to. The big conferences have effectively become the tail that wags the dog as they wield more and more power these days and the TV deals are what increasingly drive those conferences. How the TV ratings and the networks will react to a Big Ten without Penn State for a stretch of time is going to feed into any decision.

Mets – Willets Point Jul 16 2012 08:23 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

metsmarathon wrote: yeah, i've come around. it was a gross failure of the culture, and the culture needs to be punished. moreover, the culture needs a shot fired across its bow, at other schools, that there are things more important than football. and if they fuck those up, they fuck up football too. This is where I've been leaning, but I like how mm articulated it.

Nymr83 Jul 17 2012 05:55 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

I think the NCAA should demand the removal of anyone involved at all with this from any position at Penn State (whether inside the football program or not) and level a huge whopping fine, but that's it. Punishing the program just punishes the innocent student athletes currently on the team and I don't see how that helps anyone.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 17 2012 06:44 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

The innocent student athletes can transfer. I wouldn't be upset to see the NCAA give Penn State the "death penalty" for a few years.

Frayed Knot Jul 17 2012 07:18 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The innocent student athletes can transfer. One would hope so but that's not always as easy as it sounds. Rules governing how, when, if, and even where a scholarship athlete can transfer can be ridiculously restrictive. You'd think if the whole PSU program gets spiked for a couple of years they'd waive the part about requiring the players to sit out a year when transferring (an eternity to an 18 or 19 y/o) but I don't know that that's a given.

Nymr83 Jul 17 2012 07:23 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Frayed Knot wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: The innocent student athletes can transfer. One would hope so but that's not always as easy as it sounds. Rules governing how, when, if, and even where a scholarship athlete can transfer can be ridiculously restrictive. You'd think if the whole PSU program gets spiked for a couple of years they'd waive the part about requiring the players to sit out a year when transferring (an eternity to an 18 or 19 y/o) but I don't know that that's a given. IF the NCAA waives the transfer rules its less of a punishment, and I'm sure the one or two Penn State kids who are headed to the NFL will appreciate not having to sit a year and just going to another top school to show off. But for the other 50+ guys you are then forcing them to uproot themselves from the SCHOOL (not just football program) where they are enrolled and seeking a degree. I still think it makes no sense to punish the program as a whole.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 17 2012 07:24 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Boo hoo for dumb jocks.

Edgy MD Jul 17 2012 07:27 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

I'll tell you this, I've elected to extend my personal death penalty for Penn State to a second lifetime.

Mets – Willets Point Jul 17 2012 07:44 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Any "student/athletes" who have to transfer would end up getting a better education because Penn State is just a giant bar built around a football stadium.

Ceetar Jul 17 2012 07:55 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Any "student/athletes" who have to transfer would end up getting a better education because Penn State is just a giant bar built around a football stadium. Yeah, but they're going to look to transfer to another similar school. also, doesn't that describe every university ever?

Swan Swan H Jul 17 2012 08:01 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Nymr83 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: The innocent student athletes can transfer. One would hope so but that's not always as easy as it sounds. Rules governing how, when, if, and even where a scholarship athlete can transfer can be ridiculously restrictive. You'd think if the whole PSU program gets spiked for a couple of years they'd waive the part about requiring the players to sit out a year when transferring (an eternity to an 18 or 19 y/o) but I don't know that that's a given. IF the NCAA waives the transfer rules its less of a punishment, and I'm sure the one or two Penn State kids who are headed to the NFL will appreciate not having to sit a year and just going to another top school to show off. But for the other 50+ guys you are then forcing them to uproot themselves from the SCHOOL (not just football program) where they are enrolled and seeking a degree. I still think it makes no sense to punish the program as a whole. When SMU got the death penalty students were allowed to transfer without loss of eligibility. That doesn't guarantee that it would happen should Penn State be similarly punished, but as this scandal is not based on any wrongdoing by the students (unlike recruiting violations) I can't imagine that it wouldn't happen in this case.

Mets – Willets Point Jul 17 2012 08:10 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Ceetar wrote: Mets – Willets Point wrote: Any "student/athletes" who have to transfer would end up getting a better education because Penn State is just a giant bar built around a football stadium. Yeah, but they're going to look to transfer to another similar school. also, doesn't that describe every university ever? But Penn State is the #1 Party School.

Nymr83 Jul 17 2012 08:21 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Mets – Willets Point wrote: Any "student/athletes" who have to transfer would end up getting a better education because Penn State is just a giant bar built around a football stadium. Yeah, but they're going to look to transfer to another similar school. also, doesn't that describe every university ever? But Penn State is the #1 Party School. My school was #1 once (also #2 in worst cafeteria food), we were very proud! (The administration was not so happy though)

Mets – Willets Point Jul 17 2012 08:25 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

My school was ranked among the top schools where students pray regularly (and I believe it was the only school on that list that wasn't religiously affiliated). Needless to say, we never made it on the party school list.

Ceetar Jul 17 2012 08:29 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

we were up there in hard alcohol consumption back in 2001 or so. Also dorms like dungeons. But I think it's the rule rather than the exception that most universities are surrounded by bars and drinking and frats and partying.

Frayed Knot Jul 17 2012 10:29 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Ceetar wrote: Mets – Willets Point wrote: Any "student/athletes" who have to transfer would end up getting a better education because Penn State is just a giant bar built around a football stadium. Yeah, but they're going to look to transfer to another similar school. also, doesn't that describe every university ever? No, just the ones that treat football as their major selling point. Penn State certainly deserves to be smacked around on account of what they did (or, more accurately, didn't do) but the culture that spawned their attitude is certainly not unique to them.

Vic Sage Jul 17 2012 10:35 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

There is no penalty harsh enough to adequately punish child rape, and those that conspire to permit it. None that would satisfy the public's rightful desire for retribution. In this case, the rapist is going to jail forever, and of the 4 alleged conspirators, 3 are facing jail time and the 4th is dead, with his reputation in tatters. Yet we want more. Take down the statue. Hell, dig up Grandpa Joe and paint his corpse, and replace the statue with his carcass, if you want. What will it gain us? As for the NCAA instituting sanctions, they are a body that overregulates, underpolices, and arbitrarily enforces. They are owned by the networks. Do you really want them in charge of non-football related activities on campuses? I don't. Lets leave these keystone klowns out of it. I think our natural and understandable desire to exact even greater consequences are leading us in the wrong direction, and threaten to punish the innocent. If we want a "shot across the bow" of football culture on campuses (and i agree we do), i think a university president in an orange prison jumpsuit is pretty damn persuasive attention getter and cautionary tale. If the criminal justice system fails to act against the conspirators, the civil tort system will impose huge fines in the form of lawsuits by the victims that will likely cripple the school. What I feel should happen is that Penn state's board should elect to shut down its football program on its own, for at least a year, and clean house. A public penance of its own devising (rather than one imposed on it by the NCAA) would go at least some way toward repairing (if not restoring) its tarnished reputation. And the NCAA should allow any students to transfer without penalty.

Edgy MD Jul 17 2012 10:49 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

That's pretty much 94% of where I am. Because we could dig up Paterno and shoot him 100 times, and maybe we'll all feel great about it, but I'm not sure it would help child one. Call it a year of atonement. They can also finance the Penn State Center for the Protection of Children or something.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 17 2012 10:58 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Seen flying over State College today.

metsmarathon Jul 17 2012 11:01 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

well, that's about where i started. i'm still not sure that the ncaa has within it's purview the ability to shutter a program for allowing child rape to go unreported and unabated for a decade. i like to think that the university will do the right thing in this regard and do the shuttering on its own. i have a hard time imagining a scenario where that does not occur. but if it does not, then the ncaa should be next in line to demand it. you're right, the ncaa shouldn't be involved in the conduct of non-intercollegiate-sports-related activities on campus. in a broad sense, this crosses over that line, though, again, i'm not sure a more strict reading of their charter and what not actually would allow for it.

Vic Sage Jul 17 2012 11:07 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Seen flying over State College today. is that threatening an air strike? and by whom? Or is the unidentified airborn "we" a consortium of angels? I don't get it.

metsmarathon Jul 17 2012 11:28 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

clearly its the same civic minded folks who rioted in support of joepa in teh first place.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 17 2012 11:33 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Yeah, flip side of such anyway.

cooby Jul 19 2012 05:50 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Didn't see the plane, but looked for it. Drove past the statue today, just in case it comes down and it was my last chance. I've driven by it dozens of times without so much as a glance, but made it a point to look today. Several people milling about. It's a busy area anyway, right there by the stadium and all, but it seemed like more tourists than regular folks.

themetfairy Jul 19 2012 06:01 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

cooby wrote: Drove past the statue today, just in case it comes down and it was my last chance. I've driven by it dozens of times without so much as a glance, but made it a point to look today. Take some photos, for posterity's sake.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 20 2012 09:46 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Penn State to take down Paterno statue this weekend

Benjamin Grimm Jul 20 2012 09:58 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

I wonder where they're going to put it. Will they melt it down? Or put it in a museum somewhere alongside statues of former Soviet leaders?

Edgy MD Jul 20 2012 10:04 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

I would guess the best thing to do would be to offer it to his family.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 20 2012 10:06 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

They should gift it to the Mets. We could use a statue or two. Of course, ol Fred'll probably put a Jackie Robinson mask over JoePa's mug.

Ashie62 Jul 20 2012 10:42 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

batmagadanleadoff wrote: They should gift it to the Mets. We could use a statue or two. Of course, ol Fred'll probably put a Jackie Robinson mask over JoePa's mug. Bad Ass

HahnSolo Jul 20 2012 12:42 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

batmagadanleadoff wrote: They should gift it to the Mets. We could use a statue or two. Of course, ol Fred'll probably put a Jackie Robinson mask over JoePa's mug. Well, he is from Brooklyn.

Centerfield Jul 20 2012 01:31 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Penn State to take down Paterno statue this weekend This is the first time I'm seeing the quote behind Paterno. Sad and ironic. They'll write that he was a good football coach, but he made Penn State a far worse place.

cooby Jul 21 2012 10:08 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Hmmm....our local paper says they are still milling it over... http://www.centredaily.com/ And obviously, the crowd has thickened since I went by Thursday

Mets – Willets Point Jul 21 2012 10:38 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Jerry Sandusky's real legacy is that he'll be used to justify hyper-vigiliance in treating all men who want to work with kids as criminals.

Edgy MD Jul 21 2012 11:12 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Our diocese fingerprints every employee and volunteer who works with children. I imagine it's effective, but it sure stinks of prior restraint to me, and I've got to think there's a downside we see and ignore and a downside we don't see at all, and there's got to be a better answer. Every time I see this thread title, I think, "After the Love Has Gone." [youtube:3gl5pk6u]DR4Ovy3LarE[/youtube:3gl5pk6u]

Ashie62 Jul 22 2012 09:27 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

The Little league coach scandal a few years ago doesn't help. Single males and other peoples children are just a bad brew now.. Oh, the Paterno statue is in storage and the NCAA sanctions appear to be close. The Ashie guess is death penalty.

cooby Jul 22 2012 10:06 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

there it goes...

SteveJRogers Jul 22 2012 10:25 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Looks like a perp walk photo.

cooby Jul 22 2012 10:55 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

LOL, it does...

Edgy MD Jul 22 2012 02:55 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Forgetting which thread I clicked, I kinda thought it was, then I realized that Whatshisname in Colorado would have his hands shackled like no tomorrow.

Met Hunter Jul 23 2012 08:03 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

So much symbolism with the removal of the statue. Joe running, holding up that one finger. I can almost hear him saying "I'm the only person that matters." Or responding to Curly in City Slickers, "I found the one thing in life that's important. Me." That statue represents not a man, but a leader. Paterno may have been a great booster, but he proved that he was no leader. The name on the library remains. Obviously to symbolize Paterno's silence. Something they request you do upon entry.

Vic Sage Jul 23 2012 08:21 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

NCAA sanctions announced this morning: - 4 years / no postseason, scholarships reduced from 25 to 15/yr; - $60m fine (= 1 year Penn St football revenue), to be used to endow a national charity for sex abuse victims; - wiping out all wins since 1998 (taking away JoePa's wins record)

Edgy MD Jul 23 2012 08:26 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Wow. That last seems odd.

Edgy MD Jul 23 2012 08:33 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Colin Cowherd ?@ESPN_Colin Not only is PSU down to 65 schollies a yr..(huge hit) but starting next yr watch kids transfer at excelerated rate. Cowherd is still the leader in the Race to the Bottom, right?

Vic Sage Jul 23 2012 08:48 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

It's hard to call a winner in such a wide-open race. Edgy DC wrote: Wow. That last seems odd. It's not the first time NCAA has engaged in this Orwellian practice of rewriting history. But in this case, i have to think its warranted, because it directly attacks the "legacy" that JoePa and the others were trying to protect, showing such actions to have not only been repugnant but futile. It also gives the Wins record back to the Grambling coach (i think). There was much internal discussion about the need to get JoePa out of the record books, just as there is to remove the statue and get his name off the library.

Nymr83 Jul 23 2012 09:00 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Vic Sage wrote: NCAA sanctions announced this morning: - 4 years / no postseason, scholarships reduced from 25 to 15/yr; - $60m fine (= 1 year Penn St football revenue), to be used to endow a national charity for sex abuse victims; - wiping out all wins since 1998 (taking away JoePa's wins record) PSU is a public school, so where does this $60 million actually come from? You can claim "football revenues" but presumably those revenues went somewhere else to benefit the school somehow, so is the state/taxpayer now on the hook to either fund 60 million or cut school programs? What if the state or whatever state-controlled body has control says "Fuck You"?

MFS62 Jul 23 2012 09:13 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Vic Sage wrote: It also gives the Wins record back to the Grambling coach (i think). The all time record is held by John Gagliardi, who got most of his wins coaching at St. Johns (Minnesota). Paterno was second. Next was Eddie Robinson of Grambling, Gagliardi and Robinson are considered "Small College" in the link below. Next is Bobby Bowden last of Florida State. http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coachi ... ecords.php Later

Nymr83 Jul 23 2012 09:17 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

[url]http://m.deadspin.com/5928204/the-ncaa-is-using-penn-state-to-justify-its-own-horrid-existence Deadspin says "fuck you NCAA"

Frayed Knot Jul 23 2012 09:25 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

This whole process of the NCAA coming down on PSU in an attempt to (paraphrasing) 'reign in the culture of sports' in college is pretty funny. I thought elevating sports to a cult-like status was the purpose of the NCAA.

Edgy MD Jul 23 2012 09:29 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

So, the NCAA didn't just put an end to pedophilia?

MFS62 Jul 23 2012 09:32 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Didn't see this anywhere, but if those now don't count as wins for PSU, do they count as wins for the teams they played - including Bowl Games? Later

cooby Jul 23 2012 09:39 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Nymr83 wrote: NCAA sanctions announced this morning: - 4 years / no postseason, scholarships reduced from 25 to 15/yr; - $60m fine (= 1 year Penn St football revenue), to be used to endow a national charity for sex abuse victims; - wiping out all wins since 1998 (taking away JoePa's wins record) PSU is a public school, so where does this $60 million actually come from? You can claim "football revenues" but presumably those revenues went somewhere else to benefit the school somehow, so is the state/taxpayer now on the hook to either fund 60 million or cut school programs? What if the state or whatever state-controlled body has control says "Fuck You"? Probably from those of us who pay tuition and/or work there. Sigh.

Ceetar Jul 23 2012 09:49 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

MFS62 wrote: Didn't see this anywhere, but if those now don't count as wins for PSU, do they count as wins for the teams they played - including Bowl Games? Later No, I bet the losses still count for those teams as losses.

SteveJRogers Jul 23 2012 11:00 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Edgy DC wrote: Wow. That last seems odd. I was about to put on my usual "glass houses" schtick as Eddie Robinson supporters were probably pushing for that sort of penalty, but I'm hard pressed to find any "skeletons" in Grambling's closet during Robinson's long tenure there. The only thing that pops up right away on a Google search is that there was a kerfuffle when Grambling tried to "gently push" Robinson out mid-season, but public outcry was so great that he finished out his final campaign.

Frayed Knot Jul 23 2012 11:30 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

In the end I really have no interest in the debate as to whether this punishment is a Goldilocksian too hard, too soft, or just right. Re-writing the books to change the number of wins Paterno is credited for is irrelevant to me. And knowing that the topic of conversation is going to revolve are statements like; 'Well at least they kept the program alive cuz what would Penn State be without football?' (oh, I don't know, maybe they could try being a university), or others who'll view this as just a reason to mentally cut PSU out of the elite crust of football teams for a while because those are the only ones they care about anyway simply reminds me of why I don't follow the sport in the first place. That they did right by the scholarship athletes was good even if a little surprising. Anyone from PSU who wants out can do so without the penalty of being forced to sit out a year and/or get permission as to which schools they can transfer to. And those who choose to remain can keep their 'grant-in-aid' even if they ultimately don't remain with football. A little publicized aspect of sports scholarships is that they are only for one year at a time and can be revoked basically anytime the coach finds someone he thinks is better. If you don't play, we don't pay.

Mets – Willets Point Jul 23 2012 11:38 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Well said, FK.

Swan Swan H Jul 23 2012 11:49 AM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

In addition, schools receiving PSU transfers will likely be able to do so without impacting their own recruiting classes. I would imagine that ten students could not go en masse to the same school, but it's another step to help the current students. “We don’t want to restrict a young man’s choice of schools,” said Kevin Lennon, the NCAA’s vice president of academic and membership affairs. “They obviously find themselves in a very difficult situation. Should they already want to go a program that’s already at 25 [scholarships per year] or at 85 [total], that’s something we would work through with that individual institution. … Our key approach to this is we’re trying not to limit opportunities that students would want to pursue academically and athletically.”

themetfairy Jul 23 2012 12:37 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

Frayed Knot wrote: In the end I really have no interest in the debate as to whether this punishment is a Goldilocksian too hard, too soft, or just right. Re-writing the books to change the number of wins Paterno is credited for is irrelevant to me. And knowing that the topic of conversation is going to revolve are statements like; 'Well at least they kept the program alive cuz what would Penn State be without football?' (oh, I don't know, maybe they could try being a university), or others who'll view this as just a reason to mentally cut PSU out of the elite crust of football teams for a while because those are the only ones they care about anyway simply reminds me of why I don't follow the sport in the first place. That they did right by the scholarship athletes was good even if a little surprising. Anyone from PSU who wants out can do so without the penalty of being forced to sit out a year and/or get permission as to which schools they can transfer to. And those who choose to remain can keep their 'grant-in-aid' even if they ultimately don't remain with football. A little publicized aspect of sports scholarships is that they are only for one year at a time and can be revoked basically anytime the coach finds someone he thinks is better. If you don't play, we don't pay. This

Vic Sage Jul 25 2012 12:36 PM Re: After the Freeh Report (split from Apropos of Nothing in

George Orwell and the NCAA: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/25/opini ... ories.html