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More Tragic Stupidity

Centerfield Aug 06 2012 10:37 AM

I highly doubt it makes any difference to the victims' families, but it seems especially cruel to be killed, not because you're Muslim, but because some idiot who devoted his life to hating you couldn't tell that you weren't. Awful.

themetfairy Aug 06 2012 10:40 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

There are no words....

TransMonk Aug 06 2012 10:42 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Deplorable and sickening. I just don't get it. It brings the shame of stupidity to my state. Gun control has never been one of my hardcore personal issues, but it is certainly creeping up the list this summer.

metirish Aug 06 2012 10:43 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Centerfield wrote: I highly doubt it makes any difference to the victims' families, but it seems especially cruel to be killed, not because you're Muslim, but because some idiot who devoted his life to hating you couldn't tell that you weren't. Awful. well said. I remember after 9/11 Sikh's were getting beat up and abused in and around the City because ignorant people thought they were Muslim(like that's a valid excuse), and I remember leaders in that community pleading on TV shows for understanding. I worked with a Fellow who was Sikh, he never wore his turban to work(hospital) because he said it just drew negative reactions, really felt bad for him, great guy and great doctor now.

MFS62 Aug 06 2012 10:45 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

How stupid. What a shame. Later

Centerfield Aug 06 2012 11:26 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Some in the military are objecting to the description of this whacko as an "Army Vet". They say since he was kicked out, he shouldn't be called a "vet" but rather "some whacko who got kicked out of the Army because they deemed him unstable". Makes you wonder how a guy this crazy gets clearance to buy firearms.

Gwreck Aug 06 2012 11:43 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Ever wonder why other countries don't have as many of these wacko shootings as we do here in the US? Wait, I have a theory... Condolences to victims and their families/friends/etc.

metsmarathon Aug 06 2012 01:03 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

i have a number of theories, and they don't all start with guns.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2012 02:30 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

I've been traveling today. I hadn't known it had been established that this guy was hoping to kill Muslims. Sickening. How many more lives are lost beyond the attack when one man raises the tensions between communities? My closest Muslim friend is from Wisconsin and I was sick thinking about how he could have been a target. My closest Sikh friend --- a high school classmate with a fantastic dropkick --- also came to mind and I found him using Facebook to publicly mourn. Horrible. The guy wears a turban and a usually thick beard, but he's a respected surgeon, goes to Jets games and roots his heart out, and takes his daughters on Little House vacations. He's very much as American as the next guy, and now he's got to sleep and wonder if one of those daughters is going to get killed for being the other. For fuck's sake, people.

Frayed Knot Aug 08 2012 12:15 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Turns out that the shooter was killed by his own gun, not those of police.

Mets – Willets Point Aug 09 2012 08:19 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Coverage from the Guardian.

Vic Sage Aug 09 2012 08:54 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

so it seems the killer did not confuse Sikhs with Muslims... as a neo-nazi white supremicist, he was simply targeting those who were, um, unwhite. But somehow I don't think that offers the families of the dead any comfort.

metsmarathon Aug 09 2012 10:13 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

on the plus side, it's ok to hate muslims again, i suppose, without feeling too bad about it. ... its a shame this comes so soon after the aurora shootings, as as a stand-alone event, this shooting should do more to cause us to look to what in our country is fostering so much hate, and what we can do about it. however, as this follows so closely on the heels of the other mass-shooting, the dialog is muddied. whereas for both events, gun control is a central issue, the underlying causes are being perhaps glossed over in the media narrative. (not that i relly pay much attention to the media anymore. heck, i can barely pay attention to teh mets) the aurora shootings, and, really, most of hte other mass murders we've witnessed in teh past, should be calls to action to improve the diagnosis, treatment, and care of schizophrenia and other mental disorders. this slightly more recent shooting should be a call to action against hate and intolerance in its many shades and iterations. yes, both killers used guns to murder. they did not kill solely because they had guns. they killed because they were ill, or full of hate. or perhaps both.

themetfairy Aug 09 2012 10:44 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Your point is valid mm. But the fact that these people had such easy access to the guns was certainly a major contributing factor to the killings.

metsmarathon Aug 09 2012 11:15 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

certainly true. guns make it awfully easy to kill. access to a gun, however, does not turn a man into a murderer. and inaccess to a gun does not prevent a man from murdering. many of the greatest acts of murder in this country have been committed without the service of a firearm. guns are too readily available. it's more difficult to get a drivers license than it is to get a gun. (baseless hyperbole perhaps, but is it all that inaccurate?). in addition to improving gun laws, we should crack down on hate, and we should improve the mental health infrastructure in this country. the killer in aurora had apparently prepared explosive and/or incendiary devices to booby-trap his apartment. had he chosen to use those in the theater, it is certainly conceivable the death toll may well have been higher.

themetfairy Aug 09 2012 11:32 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

I'm not disagreeing that these are all important concerns. Here's the problem - with limited resources, one has to triage priorities. What's the lowest hanging fruit? How do you make the largest gains quickly?

metsmarathon Aug 09 2012 11:45 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

yup. i just chafe at the simplisitcated notion (which i do not attribute to anyone here) that "if only there were no more guns, these murderers would not have been able to murder" i chafe too at the similarly simlisiticated notion that arming everyone deters everyone. it didn't work in the wild west, and really throughout the entire course of human history, its only so far worked in terms of abating nuclear war. for now. it certainly wouldn't keep killers from killing, and would almost assuredly lead to more innocent deaths and accidental shootings.

Edgy MD Aug 09 2012 11:52 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

metsmarathon wrote: its only so far worked in terms of abating nuclear war. for now. While nuclear armament has worked so far as a deterrent, it's not as if everyone is armed.

metsmarathon Aug 09 2012 11:56 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

true, and i'm in favor of keeping it that way.

themetfairy Aug 09 2012 12:39 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

It's not that getting rid of guns will keep crazy people from killing. But making guns harder to get and banning assault rifles can help reduce the body counts when these psychos go on their sprees. There's value in limiting the damage. That's step one, IMO.

Ceetar Aug 09 2012 12:41 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

themetfairy wrote: It's not that getting rid of guns will keep crazy people from killing. But making guns harder to get and banning assault rifles can help reduce the body counts when these psychos go on their sprees. There's value in limiting the damage. That's step one, IMO. Means the crazy person likely needs more time and effort to plan/execute his attack while creates more opportunities for someone to be alerted to it as well.

metsmarathon Aug 09 2012 12:58 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Ceetar wrote: themetfairy wrote: It's not that getting rid of guns will keep crazy people from killing. But making guns harder to get and banning assault rifles can help reduce the body counts when these psychos go on their sprees. There's value in limiting the damage. That's step one, IMO. Means the crazy person likely needs more time and effort to plan/execute his attack while creates more opportunities for someone to be alerted to it as well. yes, though, the aurora shooter had lots of time to plan and execute his attack. smoke signals were sent, and seen by a few, but as is often the case, tltl. there is certainly benefit to frustrating hte efforts of killers to kill, and in providing opportunities for them to tip their hands and trip their plans, and in limiting the amount of damage they can do with relative ease. we're certainly on the same page. i wish we were better as a society and as a people in helping hte crazy people before they go off the deep end. of this i am at fault myself. the aurora shooter could have beeen helped before it ever came to that. of this there is little doubt in my mind. the wisconsin shooter as well, though disease of the heart may be a more formidable foe than disease of the mind. i babble. guns. let's have less of them. particularly in the wrong hands.

themetfairy Aug 09 2012 01:09 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

metsmarathon wrote: guns. let's have less of them. particularly in the wrong hands. Amen!

Vic Sage Aug 09 2012 01:23 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

They got guns, We got guns, All God's chillun got guns! I'm gonna walk all over the battlefield, 'Cause all God's chillun got guns! - from DUCK SOUP (1933), lyric by Harry Ruby, based on an old Negro spiritual "All God's Chillun Got Wings". So people have been noticing this problem for a long time. But with a wealthy NRA lobby, and Tea Party congress folk advocating "2nd Amendment solutions" to policies they don't like, its easier said than done to do anything about it.

Mets – Willets Point Aug 09 2012 01:29 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

I think the article I linked to showed evidence that this is not a "crazy person" but someone who rationally has determined that groups of people are inferior and must be eliminated with violence with support of other people who are not crazy (at least medically).

Ceetar Aug 09 2012 01:44 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Mets – Willets Point wrote: I think the article I linked to showed evidence that this is not a "crazy person" but someone who rationally has determined that groups of people are inferior and must be eliminated with violence with support of other people who are not crazy (at least medically). well, that's crazy by my definition.

Vic Sage Aug 09 2012 03:13 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

people who disagree with you and me aren't necessarily "crazy" -- either legally or medically -- to the extent "crazy" has any meaning. They may be hateful and/or evil (to the extent THAT word has any meaning beyond a theological context), but calling them "crazy" seems to me to minimize their responsibility for their actions (e.g., "he couldn't help it, he's crazy!") and reduces their actions to an individualized problem, allowing us to overlook it as a symptom of a more generalized social condition (which is what racism and other hate-based, or -isms really are). Might this guy have been suffering from paranoid delusions resulting from schizophrenia or some other medical condition? Yes, that's possible, but i don't believe ALL people sharing his views have m medical conditions. "crazy" is a sufficient condition, but not a necessary one, to believe this kind of stuff.

Edgy MD Aug 09 2012 03:45 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

I think the (admittedly slim) available evidence suggests that the Aurora shooter should have been kept from making purchases of assault weapons and high volume clips and blah-blah even under most current laws. The evidence on this last guy suggests that WE would do well as a society to have law enforcement keep him and his like under surveillance, but there's enough of them so as to make it near impossible, certainly without the types of prior-restraint intrusiveness to raise all sorts of flags at the ACLU. Maybe a well funded non-profit extra-governmental group could help fill in the gaps, but if we don't put as much or more energy into detoxifying our polarized culture, it'll still be a losing battle. It's been a long time since I thought about Skrewdriver --- the fathers of hate punk and the subject of an ugly fight between two of my closest friends back in college. Claire, ignorant of their history, saw a Skrewdriver tee shirt while shopping for punk records, liked it, and bought it. Seannie almost hit the roof when he saw it. He couldn't get through to her how horrible the people on her shirt were, and she was all "Fuck you, I like the shirt." They hadn't originally openly espoused any of the fascist shit that eventually became their brand, and like much of the link of neo-fascism and the skinhead movement, it snuck up on people. She wouldn't give in that night, but eventually got the message that she was wearing cultural poison. As far out there that their brand of hatred might seem, they were dangerously close to the mainstream, Madness front-man Suggs was a Skrewdriver roadie, and part of the bands entourage once beat Bob Geldof senseless after they opened for Boomtown Rats and didn't like their mix. I'm guessing that hate rock bands are going to have FBI dudes at their shows for the next few months.

Ceetar Aug 09 2012 06:58 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Vic Sage wrote: people who disagree with you and me aren't necessarily "crazy" -- either legally or medically -- to the extent "crazy" has any meaning. They may be hateful and/or evil (to the extent THAT word has any meaning beyond a theological context), but calling them "crazy" seems to me to minimize their responsibility for their actions (e.g., "he couldn't help it, he's crazy!") and reduces their actions to an individualized problem, allowing us to overlook it as a symptom of a more generalized social condition (which is what racism and other hate-based, or -isms really are). Might this guy have been suffering from paranoid delusions resulting from schizophrenia or some other medical condition? Yes, that's possible, but i don't believe ALL people sharing his views have m medical conditions. "crazy" is a sufficient condition, but not a necessary one, to believe this kind of stuff. Personally I'd rather a crazy person than a hateful one buy a gun. But i'm hardly thinking of this as a medical thing either. Life is a delicate and precious thing and to hate it in any form is pretty crazy in my worldview.

Edgy MD Aug 09 2012 08:27 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

If hate were a pathology, we'd all be in the nuthouse.

metsmarathon Aug 09 2012 08:44 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

i hate to be that guy, but the word "crazy" in this context drives me, um, crazy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 13 2012 12:39 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Another day, another automatic weapon mass slaughterning, this one at the Texas A&M campus.

Vic Sage Aug 13 2012 02:21 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

it's unclear that this is a "mass slaughtering"; from what i can see 2 cops and 1 civilian were shot by a person being served an eviction notice (the house was near the campus, not on it). The shooter shot from inside the house... 1 cop injured, 1 killed, 1 civilian killed, before he got shot and taken into custody, later dying. Apparently, an automatic pistol was used. But this was not a situation of some madman walking into a public place and shooting randomly into crowds, like Aurora and the Sikh temple. Not that this distinction matters to the victims here, of course. But this doesn't seem to be a "mass slaughter" story. It's gun violence in America, which is not a new phenomenon... it's horrible, but not new.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 13 2012 02:28 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Another day, another automatic weapon [crossout]mass slaughterning[/crossout] shooting, this one [crossout]at[/crossout] near the Texas A&M campus. Thanks.

DocTee Aug 13 2012 02:47 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Potential crisis averted on my campus: Two Vallejo university students have been arrested on suspicion of possessing explosives material. Vallejo police say 29-year-old Esteban Ugarte and 32-year-old Nicholas Salazar, students at the California Maritime Academy, were taken into custody over the weekend after police received reports of two people firing high-powered rifles at trash cans in their backyard. Lt. Lee Horton tells the Vallejo Times-Herald that officers who responded found eight firearms and components for making pipe bombs. He says the pipe bomb parts were not assembled, but were individually wrapped to make it easy to assemble them later. Ugarte and Salazar were also arrested on suspicion of reckless discharge of a firearm and possession of an assault weapon. Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Poli ... z23Sf1hmAL

Mets – Willets Point Aug 24 2012 07:46 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Shit. As many as seven people may have been shot in front of the Empire State Building this morning.

sharpie Aug 24 2012 08:47 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

So I read about the shootings and thought "that's terrible" and then I realize that mrs. sharpie had a dentist appointment at 9am right across the street from the Empire State Building. Turns out she arrived at the dentists office right before the incident and heard about it while there. After her cleaning she had to stand around in the lobby of that building for about 30 minutes before they let people out. Someone described seeing 33rd Street littered with coffee cups from people running out of the Starbucks and dropping their cups on the street.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 24 2012 08:53 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

sharpie wrote: So I read about the shootings and thought "that's terrible" and then I realize that mrs. sharpie had a dentist appointment at 9am right across the street from the Empire State Building. Turns out she arrived at the dentists office right before the incident and heard about it while there. After her cleaning she had to stand around in the lobby of that building for about 30 minutes before they let people out. Someone described seeing 33rd Street littered with coffee cups from people running out of the Starbucks and dropping their cups on the street. Is she yours? A passerby said that she had just come out of a nearby dentist’s office when she heard a burst of gunfire. “Suddenly I heard two shots or three shots, boom boom boom, and I saw two guys, they go to the floor,” said the passerby, a woman who would give only her first name, Monica. “I was really afraid.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyreg ... lding.html

sharpie Aug 24 2012 08:59 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

No. She heard nothing, she was already in the dentist waiting room when it happened.

MFS62 Aug 24 2012 09:00 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

News shots showed people shortly after walking by like nothing happened or this was a movie scene. Amazing how hardened we have become to things like this. Terrible. Later

themetfairy Aug 24 2012 09:34 AM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Someone described seeing 33rd Street littered with coffee cups from people running out of the Starbucks and dropping their cups on the street. I don't know why, but there is something about this statement that gives me comfort. I've been heartsick about this news since I heard about it. I have visited the Empire State Building. I have shopped in the Empire State Building. I have eaten in the Empire State Building. I have worked in the Empire State Building. I have even raced in the Empire State Building. I'm overwhelmed by what it must have been like for the people in the area this morning, as well as by a certain, "There but for the grace of G-d go I" feeling. Wishing sympathy to the families of those who died and speedy recoveries to the injured.

Mets – Willets Point Aug 25 2012 04:26 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

Apparently all the people wounded outside the ESB were hit by the NYPD. I’m going to wager the NYPD had thorough training in firearms handling and they still messed up. This is why I don't buy into the whole "if everyone carried a gun there would be no gun violence" theory that anti-gun regulation advocates put forth.

Edgy MD Aug 25 2012 08:00 PM Re: More Tragic Stupidity

I would also like to take this time to suggest that cops don't need automatics. Not as their primary anyhow.