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Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Mets – Willets Point Aug 24 2012 05:47 PM

I don't know of any precedent for a trade this big in late August, but apparently the Red Sox and Dodgers are working on a trade that may send Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and Nick Punto to Los Angeles and Rubby De La Rosa, James Loney and prospects Ivan De Jesus and Jerry Sands to Boston. Seems almost too good to be true for the Red Sox who've had a lot of bad blood with the players they'd be giving up.

Swan Swan H Aug 24 2012 05:49 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Mets – Willets Point wrote: I don't know of any precedent for a trade this big in late August, but apparently the Red Sox and Dodgers are working on a trade that may send Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and Nick Punto to Los Angeles and Rubby De La Rosa, James Loney and prospects Ivan De Jesus and Jerry Sands to Boston. Seems almost too good to be true for the Red Sox who've had a lot of bad blood with the players they'd be giving up. Rubby De La Rosa and Tug McGraw should have been contemporaries.

Ashie62 Aug 24 2012 05:49 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Its all over ESPN

Mets – Willets Point Aug 24 2012 05:51 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Swan Swan H wrote: Mets – Willets Point wrote: I don't know of any precedent for a trade this big in late August, but apparently the Red Sox and Dodgers are working on a trade that may send Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and Nick Punto to Los Angeles and Rubby De La Rosa, James Loney and prospects Ivan De Jesus and Jerry Sands to Boston. Seems almost too good to be true for the Red Sox who've had a lot of bad blood with the players they'd be giving up. Rubby De La Rosa and Tug McGraw should have been contemporaries. I wonder if he's any relation to Pedro's friend Nelson De La Rosa?

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2012 06:45 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Isn't Crawford on the DL? And doesn't that mean he can't be traded? Or is was that rule discarded with the last CBA?

Fman99 Aug 24 2012 06:57 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Jeez, "Rubby De La Rosa," or, "rubber of the flower", yeah, man, work that shit!

Frayed Knot Aug 24 2012 08:26 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Mets – Willets Point wrote: I don't know of any precedent for a trade this big in late August, but apparently the Red Sox and Dodgers are working on a trade that may send Adrian Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and Nick Punto to Los Angeles and Rubby De La Rosa, James Loney and prospects Ivan De Jesus and Jerry Sands to Boston. Seems almost too good to be true for the Red Sox who've had a lot of bad blood with the players they'd be giving up. I don't even know where to start with this (proposed) deal. Obviously the Sox are looking to get out from under a whole slew of long and expensive contracts so the balance player-wise doesn't have to come close to being even. Ivan de Jesus Jr is supposedly a good SS prospect and those aren't too easy to find so there's that. But Loney is at least as big an enigma as Crawford and not as good as even the 2012 version of Gonzalez. De la Rosa might be good but I don't think has all that high a ceiling and I don't know anything about Sands. What it would allow Boston to do would be to get the payroll flexibility to seek out next year's FAs to replace the ones they just purchased but already have buyer's remorse about, although who says that round will work out any better plus they'll still owe money to the likes of Lackey and Matsuzaka. Crawford apparently has a no-trade to LA clause which he'd have to waive. As far as the DL thing I think you can deal DL'd guys but only with their permission which, because of the N-T clause, they'd have to get anyway. Crawford is due for TJ surgery next week although the rehab time for non-pitchers is about half the 12 months normally expected for hurlers. Meanwhile the new Dodgers ownership - having already shelled out a stunning $2+ billion for the club - is adding payroll and coughing up big deals for little-known Cuban defectors like there's a lot more where that came from. Wanting to "make a splash" early on can be a good thing but one can go overboard with that line of thinking and I'm wondering how much of a kick in the pants this week's sweep by the Giants plays into all this. And then you wonder how much Bobby is a factor here.

smg58 Aug 24 2012 08:43 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Trading DLed players requires league approval. I don't see that being an obstacle here. Valentine has talked about liking to have "his players," so I don't doubt he had some say in this. But this could backfire on him if Beckett and A-Gone finish strongly.

Frayed Knot Aug 24 2012 08:56 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Beckett, btw, also has full N-T protection (he's 10-and-5) and Gonzalez has partial veto power although, as a SoCal native, you wouldn't think he'd block a trade to LA. The larger point being there are a lot of details to work out beyond just the two clubs agreeing. Gonzalez - signed thru 2018 Crawford - signed thru 2017 Beckett - signed thru 2014 Hell, even Nick Punto is signed thru 2013 Plus the contracts of Papi and Dice-K run out at the end of this year IOW, that's a whopping big pile of cash the Sox would be getting out from under - and that the Dodgers would be taking on (plus Hanley, plus Kemp, plus Ethier, plus Kershaw ...)

MFS62 Aug 24 2012 09:04 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

smg58 wrote: Valentine has talked about liking to have "his players," Benny Agbayani, come on down. Later

Edgy MD Aug 24 2012 09:21 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

The Dodgers would get to carry on the their post-2004 tradition as serving as a rehabilitation spot for former Red Sox heroes. That's worth... something.

Mets – Willets Point Aug 25 2012 08:23 AM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Edgy DC wrote: The Dodgers would get to carry on the their post-2004 tradition as serving as a rehabilitation spot for former Red Sox heroes. That's worth... something. Rightly or wrongly, I don't think Crawford or Gonzalez have ever been "heroes" in the eyes of Sox fans, and they've hated Beckett for longer than they liked him. Deal is finalized according to the Globe.

Edgy MD Aug 25 2012 08:29 AM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Good point. The Dodgers would get to carry on the their post-2004 tradition as serving as a rehabilitation spot for former Red Sox. Full stop.

Frayed Knot Aug 25 2012 01:41 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Reportedly needing only MLB approval for the trade to go through .... IOW - teams and players have all agreed. Commish still has to OK the deal because of the large amount of money heading to LA even through, in the grand scheme of things, the cash will be a relatively small portion of the contracts as a whole.

DocTee Aug 25 2012 02:02 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Quarter of a BILLION dollars and three all-stars involved. The waiver deals are confusing. BoSox placed Gonzalez on waivers-- LAD claimed him, meaning the Sox either had to deal him or pull him back...but I had no idea they could expand the parameters of the trade to include folks the Dodgers had presumably not claimed.

Frayed Knot Aug 25 2012 02:19 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

DocTee wrote: The waiver deals are confusing. BoSox placed Gonzalez on waivers-- LAD claimed him, meaning the Sox either had to deal him or pull him back...but I had no idea they could expand the parameters of the trade to include folks the Dodgers had presumably not claimed. Well of course those other guys had to pass through waivers too - and either have the Dodgers be the "winning" claimant, or for them to go unclaimed entirely which frees those particular players up to be dealt anywhere. Claims go from worst record to best and from own league to the other, so that means that Gonzalez went almost unclaimed for the Dodgers, being in the NL and nearer to the top of the standings than the bottom, to get awarded rights, and the others were either in the same boat or went all the way through cleanly.

seawolf17 Aug 25 2012 03:07 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Sandy can't trick the Dodgers into taking Bay and Santana? He's fired.

Frayed Knot Aug 25 2012 08:17 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Deal done, former Red Sox are in LA, in uniform, and in the game. 1st AB for Gonzalez = 3R HR

Frayed Knot Aug 26 2012 05:12 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Baseball America's synopsis on the minor league players headed to Boston DeJesus is older and less prospect-y than I realized so it appears to be the pitchers, rather than him, who are the centerpieces of this deal. Boston is also getting Troy Loney although he can be a FA at the end of this season. Allen Webster, RHP - Age 22 Ht.: 6-3. Wt.: 185. Selected by Dodgers in 18th round of 2008 draft; signed June 11, 2008. Webster fanned 8.5 batters per nine innings to rank among the Double-A Southern League's leading starters this season. Combine that ability to miss bats with his groundball tendencies—he allowed only one homer and notched a near 2-to-1 groundout-to-airout ratio in his 22 starts—and he profiles as at least a mid-rotation starter or dominant reliever. Converted from shortstop once he turned pro, Webster sits at 92-94 mph with a fastball that sinks and bores in on the hands of righties, while his mid-80s slider features late vertical break. Scouts expect his control and changeup to suffice in a starting role. The Red Sox must add Webster to the 40-man roster in November to shield him from the Rule 5 draft. Rubby De La Rosa, RHP -- Age: 23 Ht.: 5-11. Wt.: 205 -- Bats: R. Throws: R. Signed as international free agent by Dodgers, July 2, 2007. A late-bloomer in every sense of the term, de la Rosa signed out of the Dominican at age 18 and got sent home for disciplinary reasons during his U.S. debut season in 2009. The power-armed righty put things together in 2010, winning Dodgers minor league pitcher of the year honors and making his big league debut the following May. De la Rosa fanned a batter per inning during 13 appearances for Los Angeles as a rookie, but his season ended in early August 2011 when he had Tommy John surgery. He recovered quickly from the procedure and made it back to the Dodgers little more than a year after the surgery. Like Webster, de la Rosa has a high floor based on his raw stuff and control. He sits 92-94 mph, bumps 96, and at his best mixes in a biting slider and sinking changeup. He could develop into the stud closer the Red Sox thought they were trading for when they acquired Andrew Bailey and Mark Melancon last offseason. De la Rosa has three minor league options remaining in case he needs to iron out his control or secondary stuff at the outset of 2013. Jerry Sands, LF/1B -- Age: 24 Ht.: 6-4. Wt.: 225. -- Bats: R. Throws: R. Selected by Dodgers in 25th round of 2008 draft For what he lacks in pure bat speed, Sands compensates for with brute strength. He slugged 35 homers in 2010 to burst on the prospect scene (and tie for third in the minors), then followed that up with seasons of 29 and 24 homers for Triple-A Albuquerque the past two years. The righty-hitting Sands has provided serious pop versus lefthanders (.532 slugging) during a pair of trials with Los Angeles, but big league righties have completely neutralized him at .204/.301/.289 over 165 plate appearances. That split doesn't persist in Triple-A—where Sands has fairly even contact rates, walk rates and isolated slugging averages versus lefties and righties alike—but that could just be the difference in quality between pitchers Triple-A and the big leagues. (The split to monitor for all Albuquerque players is home/road, and on that front Sands batted .248/.319/.473 with 23 homers in 455 PAs away from Isotopes Park during 2011-12.) All of his value must come with the bat because he doesn't shine defensively or on the bases. Fenway Park could be the right venue to maximize Sands' pull-oriented hitting approach because even if he guesses wrong, pop flies to left field often crash off the Green Monster. Ivan De Jesus Jr, 2B/SS -- Age: 25 Ht.: 5-11. Wt.: 200 -- Bats: R. Throws: R. Selected by Dodgers in second round of 2005 draft De Jesus missed the majority of 2009 with a broken leg, and the lost season seemed to also break his momentum to the big leagues. He spent the bulk of the past three seasons in Triple-A—he'll be out of options next spring—batting .301/.354/.416 in 1,266 PAs for Albuquerque and proving capable defense at second base, shortstop and third base. (He batted .264/.315/.348 with five homers and 30 doubles in 649 PAs away from Isotopes Park.) De Jesus throws well enough to play the left side of the infield on a part-time basis, but his quick feet on the double play and average range make him best suited for the keystone. His contact-oriented hitting approach and well-below-average power would not meet the standard of a first-division second baseman, but he's well-equipped to handle a utility role.

Mex17 Aug 27 2012 06:17 AM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 27 2012 02:49 PM

I think that this trade really throws down the gauntlet for the Wilpons, and by extention, is a significant test to Selig's credibility as Commissioner of Baseball. When control of the Dodgers was forcibly taken away from McCourt, a lot of people wondered why the same was not done to Wilpon. Speculation was that Selig's personal relationship with Fred played a role (Bud likes Fred, he does not like McCourt). What we were instead told was that the Mets situation was vastly different as opposed to the Dodgers, with the former being salvagable under current ownership, whereas the latter was not salvageable. Specifically, we were told that once: a) the Wilpons get out from under the threat of liability with regard to the Madoff clawback, and b) the Wilpons finalize the process of lining up minority owners, everything ought to be fine. The Dodgers were sold, in no small part due to the heavy hand of Selig coming down on McCourt, and we have seen what has transpired. The Wilpons are now out from under the threat of liability with the Madoff clawback. The Wilpons have also finalized the process of lining up minority investors. The Mets are in desparate need of TWO new starting outfielders and a completely revamped bullpen. They also need to commit to Wright and Dickey long-term. All of this will cost money. Based upon what we were sold, the money should be there now. We will be watching.

Frayed Knot Aug 27 2012 06:38 AM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 27 2012 06:42 AM

It's also not known at this time whether the way the Dodgers are proceeding constitutes a good plan - in either a business or baseball sense. Most people were stunned by the $2+ billion price tag just to get the team. Now supposedly there's new TV money on the way which, when combined with imported and domestic stars, promises to keep the good times rolling for years to come. But that almost exactly describes what went on a decade or so ago during the previous Texas ownership, one that wound up ending in a sale via bankruptcy court a few years after previously deciding to sell their biggest high-priced star for about 50 cents on the dollar less than 1/3 of the way into his deal. From a baseball standpoint, the biggest winner is this recent blockbuster deal is probably the 2012 & 2013 Dodgers. But, depending on how things break, the biggest loser might be the 2016 & 2017 Dodgers.

Edgy MD Aug 27 2012 06:39 AM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Welcome back, Mex. The distinction between the Mets and Dodgers that I recall being made by MLB is that the Mets re-invested money liberally into the team while the Dodgers' owners pocketed revenue. At any rate, I'm certainly not asking the Mets to behave like the Dodgers.

Ceetar Aug 27 2012 06:44 AM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Edgy DC wrote: Welcome back, Mex. The distinction between the Mets and Dodgers that I recall being made by MLB is that the Mets re-invested money liberally into the team while the Dodgers' owners pocketed revenue. At any rate, I'm certainly not asking the Mets to behave like the Dodgers. it wasn't just revenue they were pocketing if I recall, but basically stealing from the team. Red Sox look to be fairly big winners here, money wise. opens them up to a lot of things. If there's a team in New York frustrated by this deal, it's not the Mets.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 27 2012 06:46 AM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

By my count, this puts their payroll for the next couple of years-- with nowhere near 25 guys signed-- at something like $190M. Am I off?

Mex17 Aug 27 2012 02:46 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Edgy DC wrote: Welcome back, Mex. The distinction between the Mets and Dodgers that I recall being made by MLB is that the Mets re-invested money liberally into the team while the Dodgers' owners pocketed revenue. At any rate, I'm certainly not asking the Mets to behave like the Dodgers. I don't think that they need to go as far as the Dodgers are going, but I do think that they are going to have to loosen the purse strings more than incrementally this off-season in order to fill the holes that they need to fill if they are going to be percieved as viable (by the fans and, perhaps more importantly, by the two players that they are hoping to lock up long term who have the option of walking after 2013).

Frayed Knot Aug 27 2012 04:34 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

But you also don't want to just go spending money for the sake of spending it. Three winters ago the Mets set their eyes on FAs Matt Holliday, John Lackey, & Jason Bay and wound up with the wrong one. But 2 out of the 3 turned out to be 'wrong ones' (not good odds) and, although there were plenty of folks saying at the time that they preferred Holliday, those things are only truly knowable in hindsight. The larger point being that they shouldn't go spreading cash all over the place if the main goal is merely to prove that they still can and will, or because some other team is doing it (how'd it work out for Miami this past year?), or to do it as a way to convince the masses to put down their pitchforks and torches. Probably the best lesson from 'Moneyball' is the idea that it's easier to recover from the player you fail to sign than it is to recover from the one you sign at the wrong price.

Mex17 Aug 27 2012 04:43 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Frayed Knot wrote: But you also don't want to just go spending money for the sake of spending it. Three winters ago the Mets set their eyes on FAs Matt Holliday, John Lackey, & Jason Bay and wound up with the wrong one. But 2 out of the 3 turned out to be 'wrong ones' (not good odds) and, although there were plenty of folks saying at the time that they preferred Holliday, those things are only truly knowable in hindsight. The larger point being that they shouldn't go spreading cash all over the place if the main goal is merely to prove that they still can and will, or because some other team is doing it (how'd it work out for Miami this past year?), or to do it as a way to convince the masses to put down their pitchforks and torches. Probably the best lesson from 'Moneyball' is the idea that it's easier to recover from the player you fail to sign than it is to recover from the one you sign at the wrong price. Agreed, but I think that there might be some ways in which to do it smartly this winter. Look specifically at the "Plan A" that I have in the thread I just started. The problem lately is that everything has been based on the free agent market. Cashen built though trades. Specifically, trading from minor league surplus that took time to build up. Sandy seems to be of the same mindset and we might have enough to pull one good one off this winter. Coulple that with some good but not stratospheric FA contracts and that might be the cocktail for success.

Mets – Willets Point Aug 27 2012 04:54 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Edgy DC wrote: Good point. The Dodgers would get to carry on the their post-2004 tradition as serving as a rehabilitation spot for former Red Sox. Full stop. I'm trying to think -without peeking - what post-2004 Red Sox previously ended up in Dodger blue. Derek Lowe comes to mind, and Nomar Garciaparra was traded from the Red Sox mid-2004 and then made his way to the Dodgers but I'm blanking on anyone else.

Ceetar Aug 27 2012 04:56 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Good point. The Dodgers would get to carry on the their post-2004 tradition as serving as a rehabilitation spot for former Red Sox. Full stop. I'm trying to think -without peeking - what post-2004 Red Sox previously ended up in Dodger blue. Derek Lowe comes to mind, and Nomar Garciaparra was traded from the Red Sox mid-2004 and then made his way to the Dodgers but I'm blanking on anyone else. I believe you're missing the obvious one.

Mets – Willets Point Aug 27 2012 04:57 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Ceetar wrote: Mets – Willets Point wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Good point. The Dodgers would get to carry on the their post-2004 tradition as serving as a rehabilitation spot for former Red Sox. Full stop. I'm trying to think -without peeking - what post-2004 Red Sox previously ended up in Dodger blue. Derek Lowe comes to mind, and Nomar Garciaparra was traded from the Red Sox mid-2004 and then made his way to the Dodgers but I'm blanking on anyone else. I believe you're missing the obvious one. Duh, Manny.

Edgy MD Aug 27 2012 08:28 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Los Angeles Red Sox, Big Shot Boston Dudes from the Last Decade Who Ended up in Dodger Blue: Nomar Garciaparra Shea Hillenbrand Grady Little Mark Loretta Derek Lowe Doug Mienkewicz Mill Mueller Manny Ramirez David Wells and now... Josh Beckett Carl Crawford Adrian Gonzalez Nick Punto

Edgy MD Aug 28 2012 12:48 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Really, if I was a mind to view this trade with covetousness, I'd be jealous of the Sox fans, not those of the Dodgers. Their GM really made a name for himself here, packaging contracts people might want (Gonzalez) with those that are less attractive (Crawford, Lester). A the deadline, the Mets had one of the most attractive contracts in baseball (Dickey) and one of the least (Bay). Could the team have found a way to stitch them together and make a team take both in a deal? I'm not advocating, but if wheeling and dealing gives you a good feeling, that's the sort of play that might have worked strategically.

Frayed Knot Aug 28 2012 02:29 PM Re: Blockbuster Post-Trade Deadline Trade?

Edgy DC wrote: Really, if I was a mind to view this trade with covetousness, I'd be jealous of the Sox fans, not those of the Dodgers. Their GM really made a name for himself here, packaging contracts people might want (Gonzalez) with those that are less attractive (Crawford, Lester). On the other hand remember that Gonzalez was a trade rather than a FA signing (actually, it was kind of both) so getting rid of him so quickly not only lost him but there were also the young guys who were sent away to get him who could still haunt the fans' memory. So on a night when Boston fans might be happy by seeing Beckett make his LAD debut by pretty much laying an egg (3 ER on 7 hits + 3 BBs in 5.2 IP) Sox fans also had to contend with seeing Casey Kelly (the main bait in the AG deal) make his ML debut with the Pads by shutting out Atlanta on 3 hits over 6