Master Index of Archived Threads


why do we suck?

Vic Sage Sep 10 2012 08:47 AM

so i was curious why we are where we are, at this point. I assumed it was our pitching. It's not. We are in the middle of the pack, both home and on the road, by most measures. So the pitching hasn't been GOOD, but it hasn't been terrible, overall. I looked at our hitting. ON the road, we score like the Yankees, near the top of the heap. But at home, we are the worst team in the NL, 2nd worst in baseball only to Seattle. So it seems pretty clear that our inability to score at home has been this season's main culprit. That's not based on HR rate, which even at Citi is middle of the pack or so. So to what do you owe our inability to score runs at home, even after moving in the fences this year? Is it just random? I'm inclined to think so, but i'd be interested in other theories.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 09:10 AM Re: why do we suck?

Vic Sage wrote: So to what do you owe our inability to score runs at home, even after moving in the fences this year? Is it just random? I'm inclined to think so, but i'd be interested in other theories. It's been a weird season. They scored some early, but by June it was tailing off. the Mets underperformed that month, and it was the offense's fault. Best ERA in the league (bullpen was a tick better than league average if I recall) but just didn't score enough runs. I want to say power, but I'm not even sure. (they don't need to find a one-dimensional slugger, but they probably need to replace one of the 0-2 HR position guys with someone that's gonna hit 15-20) we went from 6th last year to 10th this year in runs scored in the NL. we were top 2 in OBP last year. Sure, we lost Beltran and Reyes, but I expected an uptick in power to at least match the run scoring. Maybe that was short sighted, especially after we swapped Pagan for Torres. Ruben doesn't hit for power, and has shown very little improvement over last year. Thole's taken a step back to where he's actually a bad offensive player this year, compared to at least keeping the line moving last year. And everyone's been so freaking streaky! Besides David, who's not having a great second half but at least seems to still sorta getting hits here and there and bases here and there, I think every other regular has gone through stretches where they're like 0-20. I'm sure some of that's bad luck, and just an oddity, but when on any given day you're playing with 23-24 outs, it hurts. This is kind of what I was arguing in another thread about Davis. Since he's sorta gotten it together, he's really minimized the 0-20s and games where he swings and misses at 4 pitches an AB. And he seems capable of running into one for some runs even when he's struggling. They need to work on minimizing these lows. I like Dave Hudgens, but he's got a lot of work to do.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 10 2012 09:12 AM Re: why do we suck?

At some point, David Wright went missing and Mike Baxter became our best offensive player. That's one thing. As for the shitty-at-home factor: I think its a manifestation of the team's lack of confidence in itself. They know they bring less gunpowder to the park every day that the touring clubs do and it depresses them and makes them stink. Also having the Wilpons around probably bothers them.

MFS62 Sep 10 2012 09:45 AM Re: why do we suck?

Could the difference between the hitting numbers at home and on the road be because of the hitting background? I don't have the numbers, but you must have looked at them, Vic. Later

themetfairy Sep 10 2012 09:51 AM Re: why do we suck?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Also having the Wilpons around probably bothers them. This

Vic Sage Sep 10 2012 10:08 AM Re: why do we suck?

MFS62 wrote: Could the difference between the hitting numbers at home and on the road be because of the hitting background? I don't have the numbers, but you must have looked at them, Vic. Later i don't know what numbers one could look at to say its the hitting background. Visiting teams don't seem to have a problem hitting here. I mean, its not a hitter's park overall, but its not the Kingdome either. And the Mets pitching numbers are roughly equivalent in their mediocrity at home and on the road. So i don't get the split. And all the points ceetar makes (even if true) do not explain the extreme home/away split either. that the team doesn't like being near the Wilpons (and, of course, "CAHNFidence") are the closest to a theory that's been proposed, beyond the randomness that haunts baseball in a way most fans and NO ONE in the media wants to acknowledge.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 10 2012 10:14 AM Re: why do we suck?

I mostly was joking about the Wilpon thing but I think its possible that the notion of the Mets just not being as good as their opponents is reinforced by playing in front of fans who also aren't buying it. Not to say they are frauds, but I mean, its objectively true that they haven't got the talent to play with the Washingtons and Atlantas of the league and their fans know it.

Frayed Knot Sep 10 2012 10:25 AM Re: why do we suck?

There also seems to be some truth to the concept of different parts of the game taking turns at sucking and therefore sinking the team in different spots. And, yeah, while you can claim some version of this with just about any team, this NYM season seemed particularly vulnerable to each aspect of the team killing their chances at various times. - Early on it was the bullpen. Not just bad but almost unbelievably bad to the point where not only were leads blown but potential catch-up games were lost as 1 and 2 run deficits turned into insurmountable 5 and 6 run gaps. It both killed what was, at that time, a pretty good starting staff (minus Pelfrey) but also the offense which was near the top in OBA pile. - Post ASG it became the starters. Gee was lost for the season; Santana, even before he was officially lost, was essentially lost; and even Dickey became just merely good for a stretch and not the near automatic win he was both before and since. - And starting around August 1st it became the offense. Wright went from MVP co-fave to ordinary; Duda & Nieuwy stopped slugging and then stopped playing; Murph went into long funks; Tejada slid back a bit; Thole went from meh to to 'I wish I could hit like Ordonez'; and Torres, leaned on even more with the subtraction of Duda-huis, saw his minimal contributions sink even lower. Meanwhile the starters have (mostly) bounced back and the pen has been -- dare I say it? -- Good!

seawolf17 Sep 10 2012 10:33 AM Re: why do we suck?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I mostly was joking about the Wilpon thing but I think its possible that the notion of the Mets just not being as good as their opponents is reinforced by playing in front of fans who also aren't buying it. Not to say they are frauds, but I mean, its objectively true that they haven't got the talent to play with the Washingtons and Atlantas of the league and their fans know it. I often wonder how deep "truth" runs about the "difficulty" of playing in NYC. I'm not talking about we, the Poolers, the intelligentsia of Mets fandom... I'm talking about the whackadoodles who tweet to suggest that Jon Rauch kill himself after he gives up a run. You think that happens in KC or Cleveland? Probably not at this volume. Have they booed Reyes in Florida yet? First 0-for-4 in April here if he signed that deal with us instead and there'd be people ready to put him on the next plane to the DR. That's gotta be grating on guys, no?

Ashie62 Sep 10 2012 10:59 AM Re: why do we suck?

The Wilpons cause us to suck.

Edgy MD Sep 10 2012 11:18 AM Re: why do we suck?

There's definitely a crisis of confidence we're witnessing. Trust me, I also have trouble scoring at home, so I know whereof I speak.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 10 2012 11:24 AM Re: why do we suck?

I don't imagine it would swing more than a handful of games, but could it be that when the Mets play to tie on the road (like bunting the tying run to second when down by one in the ninth) they're less likely to win? Perhaps what I'm trying to ask is: when Terry goes "by the book" at home, is it more damaging than when he does so on the road?

Centerfield Sep 10 2012 11:42 AM Re: why do we suck?

The offense sucks. They are 22nd in runs scored in MLB. Our lineup has no one with an OPS in the 900's. Our clean up hitter is at .752, and it took an incredible surge (mostly after we were out of it) to even get it that high. Our #5 hitter (Duda) is at .716. Jason Bay is at .546. We are lucky Scott Hairston played over his head to an .805 OPS or else we really would have sucked. Even our feel good story at SS is under .700 in OPS. Murphy has a nice looking BA, but his OPS remains in the low .700's. I thought our pitching was pretty good but we are 19th in MLB in staff ERA. This is surprising. I thought we had a pretty good rotation and the bullpen has been solid lately. I'm surprised to see this. So to sum up, we have shitty hitters and below average pitchers. I think the staff is pretty close to being a playoff caliber staff, so maybe just re-stock some bullpen arms and we will be in good shape for 2013. The offense is miles away from being competitive.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 12:04 PM Re: why do we suck?

Centerfield wrote: The offense is miles away from being competitive. Are they? It's easy to get fed up with guys, but Murphy and Thole and Duda have all shown signs of being better. Is it a stretch to think that one or more of them could do that, and the other guys get replaced by guys that will? It's baseball. Sometimes miles away is really inches. it's a balancing act for Sandy to figure out which guys are going to bounce back, and which ones are going to..well, need replacing. While I don't think guys quit, I think once the Mets were basically out of it guys started having different approaches and tinkering a bit (the whole Thole as pull hitter thing) Maybe there's something to home. more media? more homeward responsibilities, lackluster crowd? It's probably just randomness though. It may be the pitchers park thing? I suspect that after a half season or so of success for some possibly limited players with big holes in their games, opposing scouting reports caught on. They played division rival playoff teams in WSH and ATL after the break and they would've been scouting the hardest. pitchers were able to exploit the exposed weaknesses in the hitters, who weren't able to re-adjust. Citi Field being a little more pitcher friendly make it more apparent. They also stopped wanting to get beat by David Wright so through him progressively less pitches in the zone, and as the Mets sunk maybe he started swinging at more and more of them trying to force the issue. I do believe a lot of the "he's tired" reports are more of the mental variety associated with losing. I think Ruben or Daniel probably doesn't say anything in a pennant race, goes to bed an hour earlier and has another red bull. The adrenaline and fun of playing meaningful baseball probably helps too.

metsmarathon Sep 10 2012 12:12 PM Re: why do we suck?

clearly, citi field needs bluer walls. or maybe a more positive vibe. dunno.

TransMonk Sep 10 2012 12:14 PM Re: why do we suck? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 10 2012 12:39 PM

Ceetar wrote: Are they? Yes. Rather than miles I would say at least 3 or 4 players away. The offense is not good. Do some of the players have the potential to someday be better than they are now? Maybe. But mostly, I think we are seeing what we've got to give. The starting pitching was good in the beginning of the year, but even when the team was over .500, the bullpen was one of the worst in the MLB. Now that the bullpen has evened out, the starters are falling back to mediocre. There is maybe a small amount of fan and media influence that is causing them to press at home, but I think it is mostly coincidence.

Centerfield Sep 10 2012 12:19 PM Re: why do we suck?

Duda I am willing to give you. He had such a promising 300 AB's last year, I thought he had the potential to really turn into a middle of the lineup guy. But he has taken a huge step back this year. Which is not to say you should give up on a young player after a bad year, but he is certainly far from being a known commodity. Murphy has had 1500 AB's in the majors. He is what he is. He's a pretty good hitter for average who does not get on base enough to justify his lack of power. He doesn't hit well enough to justify his poor fielding. He is one of these guys that will bounce around and some team will take a flyer on him. Once in a while he may find the right situation and find his way to a .800 OPS season, but he is not someone you build a team around. Thole? I will grant you that Thole has been better, but he has never been anything approaching good. Plus he is getting worse as time goes by. I may be exaggerating a bit but I feel like this entire team except Wright and Davis is made of guys who would be batting 7th or 8th on a championship level team.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 12:48 PM Re: why do we suck?

Murphy isn't that bad a fielder all in all. He's hardly been disastrous at any rate, and if he could put up his career rates that's actually a solid piece. 1500AB is a lot, but it's also only three seasons or so, and a segmented bit at that. I wouldn't be surprised if what we've seen this year is a floor of sorts for Murphy. He's 9th in OPS of qualifying players and his career numbers would have him 6th. He appears to be a student of hitting and If i had to bet on one guy improving and maintaining it, it'd probably be Danny. Thole..I dunno, a guy that's going to get on base like he did before this year is valuable as a catcher. It's not the traditional bopper, sure, but not making outs is nice. Not having a hole in the lineup is nice. He's 18/44 in OBP from 2010-2012, but he's just way down this year. Concussion? I dunno, even if you think Thole sucks, do 25 year old players just vanish like that? He's basically Jason Bay since returning from the concussion except with a couple more singles and when he happens to hit one hard it's a double instead of a homer. .219/.270/.257 over 210 AB. 14/32 BB/K where he was 66/77 before this season. I'm a little wary of Tejada's lack of progress though.

Edgy MD Sep 10 2012 12:58 PM Re: why do we suck?

I never know what to do with the "how many players away?" question. That depends on your feel for who is a good bet to improve and who is a good bet to jettison. The 1983 Mets were dead last in runs in the National League. Davey Johnson replaced Brian Giles with Wally Backman --- a past-due prospect at that point who Johnson had to talk out of quitting a year prior --- and they climbed up to sixth out of 12. One change in the whole lineup. (Well, on second thought, 1.7. He also replaced Hodges/Ortiz with Fitzgerald/Hodges.) Maybe they are four players away. I think the main change they need in the offseason is find the best outfielder that they can afford, and if they pull that off, I'm signing on.

Centerfield Sep 10 2012 01:08 PM Re: why do we suck?

I think implied in the "X players away" statements are the idea that if a current player turns into one of the players they are lacking, then they lack one less player. So if the Mets are 4 players away and the Looney Tunes martians return Jason Bay's ability back to him, we will be 3 players away.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 01:24 PM Re: why do we suck?

Centerfield wrote: I think implied in the "X players away" statements are the idea that if a current player turns into one of the players they are lacking, then they lack one less player. So if the Mets are 4 players away and the Looney Tunes martians return Jason Bay's ability back to him, we will be 3 players away. Also sometimes that player is simply a more solid backup guy, or a real good pinch hitter, or something. People seem to underemphasize how much some bit players can add.

Fman99 Sep 10 2012 01:34 PM Re: why do we suck?

I blame Obamacare.

seawolf17 Sep 10 2012 01:37 PM Re: why do we suck?

Fman99 wrote: I blame Obamacare. Did the Wilpons even realize they could save money by not offering the players health care? They should try that.

Mets – Willets Point Sep 10 2012 01:38 PM Re: why do we suck?

Fman99 wrote: I blame Obamacare. When I saw that Fman had added a post to a thread called "why do we suck?" I was expecting something gross.

Vic Sage Sep 10 2012 01:38 PM Re: why do we suck?

Centerfield wrote: The offense sucks. They are 22nd in runs scored in MLB. Our lineup has no one with an OPS in the 900's. Our clean up hitter is at .752, and it took an incredible surge (mostly after we were out of it) to even get it that high. Our #5 hitter (Duda) is at .716. Jason Bay is at .546. We are lucky Scott Hairston played over his head to an .805 OPS or else we really would have sucked. Even our feel good story at SS is under .700 in OPS. Murphy has a nice looking BA, but his OPS remains in the low .700's. I thought our pitching was pretty good but we are 19th in MLB in staff ERA. This is surprising. I thought we had a pretty good rotation and the bullpen has been solid lately. I'm surprised to see this. So to sum up, we have shitty hitters and below average pitchers. I think the staff is pretty close to being a playoff caliber staff, so maybe just re-stock some bullpen arms and we will be in good shape for 2013. The offense is miles away from being competitive. granted to all of this, but why would the hitters be relatively productive on the road (4th overall, 2nd in the NL to SF) and just god awful at home (next to last overall, dead last in NL)? No one has given me a theory with even a hint of plausibility beyond random chance. and maybe there isn't one.

Edgy MD Sep 10 2012 01:43 PM Re: why do we suck?

But with a sample size that big, it's certainly worth exploring.

Fman99 Sep 10 2012 01:49 PM Re: why do we suck?

Edgy DC wrote: But with a sample size that big, it's certainly worth exploring. That's what she said.

Centerfield Sep 10 2012 01:57 PM Re: why do we suck?

Vic Sage wrote: Centerfield wrote: The offense sucks. They are 22nd in runs scored in MLB. Our lineup has no one with an OPS in the 900's. Our clean up hitter is at .752, and it took an incredible surge (mostly after we were out of it) to even get it that high. Our #5 hitter (Duda) is at .716. Jason Bay is at .546. We are lucky Scott Hairston played over his head to an .805 OPS or else we really would have sucked. Even our feel good story at SS is under .700 in OPS. Murphy has a nice looking BA, but his OPS remains in the low .700's. I thought our pitching was pretty good but we are 19th in MLB in staff ERA. This is surprising. I thought we had a pretty good rotation and the bullpen has been solid lately. I'm surprised to see this. So to sum up, we have shitty hitters and below average pitchers. I think the staff is pretty close to being a playoff caliber staff, so maybe just re-stock some bullpen arms and we will be in good shape for 2013. The offense is miles away from being competitive. granted to all of this, but why would the hitters be relatively productive on the road (4th overall, 2nd in the NL to SF) and just god awful at home (next to last overall, dead last in NL)? No one has given me a theory with even a hint of plausibility beyond random chance. and maybe there isn't one. You know, it's odd. I just looked up the individual numbers. Out of the regulars that I checked, only Davis has stark differences (.582, .893). Tejada and Wright are both about a 100 points better away, but the rest are about what you'd expect. It's odd. Maybe CitiField just sucks. It still is a great pitcher's park and it's hard to hit it out opposite field to RF. This park would have messed with Piazza a lot.

metsmarathon Sep 10 2012 02:01 PM Re: why do we suck?

my money is on a negative atmosphere pervading the fanbase and the whole damned building. its possible that there's a hangover effect from the old walls, i suppose, where they still seem formidable to the players who had played there before, but i think its more likely to be a big ol negativity cloud thing.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 02:11 PM Re: why do we suck?

Edgy DC wrote: But with a sample size that big, it's certainly worth exploring. don't get fooled, it IS a small sample size. Mets through June 4th, or 31 games, were scoring 4.05 runs a game at home. (19-12 record) On the season, 68 games, 3.54. 30-38. It's really just a weird timing about when a streaky team ended up sucking.

Edgy MD Sep 10 2012 02:14 PM Re: why do we suck?

my money is on a negative atmosphere pervading the fanbase and the whole damned building. And, if you're Sandy Alderson and you accept that (ceets seemingly doesn't), what do you do about that? If you're Terry Collins? The thing about psychology is where it can run counter to progressive action. The circumstances may call for restrained and progressive organizational building, but it may take a couple of big bold moves to scare off the ghosts.

Centerfield Sep 10 2012 02:19 PM Re: why do we suck?

Simple solution: Sign or trade for a guy who will make CitiField his bitch. Knock HR's left and right.

seawolf17 Sep 10 2012 02:22 PM Re: why do we suck?

Difficult solution: Knock Citi Field down and ask John Franco to find some guys who will rebuild the old place in one winter.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 02:22 PM Re: why do we suck?

Centerfield wrote: Simple solution: Sign or trade for a guy who will make CitiField his bitch. Knock HR's left and right. Adam Dunn?

Edgy MD Sep 10 2012 02:31 PM Re: why do we suck?

That's certainly a tempting thought. Get a pure power guy who is unimidated by the building and the rest of the lineup relaxes and does the things they can do. It makes just enough sense to try and just little enough to suspect just how lacking and luck-dependent a strategy it is. I imagine that nobody wishes it were that simple more than Omar Minaya and Jason Bay. I'm trying to go down this list of free agent outfielders to see if any can fill that role, and none are really jumping out at me. Do you see anybody? [list:3fbv1kwr]Bobby Abreu Alfredo Amegaza Rick Ankiel Michael Bourn Marlon Byrd Melky Cabrera Johnny Damon Matt Diaz Kosuke Fukudome Jonny Gomes Curtis Granderson Scott Hairston [bigpurple:3fbv1kwr]Josh Hamilton[/bigpurple:3fbv1kwr] Eric Hinske Torii Hunter Raul Ibanez Reed Johnson Andruw Jones Carlos Lee Ryan Ludwick Hideki Matsui Xavier Nady Angel Pagan Juan Pierre Juan Rivera Cody Ross Luke Scott Grady Sizemore Ryan Spilborghs Ichiro Suzuki Nick Swisher B.J. Upton Shane Victorino Reggie Willits Delmon Young[/list:u:3fbv1kwr] Yeah, me neither.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 02:38 PM Re: why do we suck?

Ludwick, maybe a BJ for the right price, maybe Victorino? *shudders a little*

Benjamin Grimm Sep 10 2012 02:40 PM Re: why do we suck?

What is the going price for a BJ these days?

Edgy MD Sep 10 2012 02:40 PM Re: why do we suck?

Ludwick's certainly the most interesting item for those not predisposed to shopping from the top shelf.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 10 2012 02:55 PM Re: why do we suck?

seawolf17 wrote: Difficult solution: Knock Citi Field down and ask John Franco to find some guys who will rebuild the old place in one winter. Hey look, I'm not out there advocating this kinda stuff but just imagine what would happen if CitiField, you know, burned to the ground in some kind of unfortunate, unsolved accident (hopefully after the regular season was over and the employees were off). I can't imagine there'd be a single brick laid in the same way. You know, maybe the plush, carpeted, mahogany locker room gets replicated; and they'd be sure to do more Shake Shack, but man a mulligan on this whole clusterfuck of a building would be in order.

Centerfield Sep 10 2012 03:05 PM Re: why do we suck?

Really? Other than the idiotic OF dimensions and the corny replica of Ebbets Field, I thought the building was pretty nice. In other news, it looks like the Mets have discovered the problem and fixed it. Per Metsblog: Terry Collins told reporters today that he plans to move the team’s batting practice at home to a time closer to the actual start time of the game, with his starter hitting last. Typically, on the road he explained, the team hits roughly 45 minutes before the game. However, at home, it can be as much as two hours and 25 minutes, which, in his estimation, is too large an amount of time.

G-Fafif Sep 10 2012 03:08 PM Re: why do we suck?

Really? Other than the idiotic OF dimensions and the corny replica of Ebbets Field, I thought the building was pretty nice. In other news, it looks like the Mets have discovered the problem and fixed it. Per Metsblog: Terry Collins told reporters today that he plans to move the team’s batting practice at home to a time closer to the actual start time of the game, with his starter hitting last. Typically, on the road he explained, the team hits roughly 45 minutes before the game. However, at home, it can be as much as two hours and 25 minutes, which, in his estimation, is too large an amount of time. I watched Mets BP pretty intently twice in August. I think I saw three home runs hit in all...in batting practice. I also think it was two, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that I missed one. Point is I didn't sense a lot of momentum evaporating as they ceded the field to the visitors.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 10 2012 03:26 PM Re: why do we suck?

I swear I'm not not making this up. The most awesome batting practice display I ever saw in attendance by a home team Met was put on by ..... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bruce Boisclair.

G-Fafif Sep 10 2012 03:51 PM Re: why do we suck?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I swear I'm not not making this up. The most awesome batting practice display I ever saw in attendance by a home team Met was put on by ..... Bruce Boisclair. And clearly that was because Joe Torre made sure to let him hit at 7:55 for those 8:05 starts.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 10 2012 04:09 PM Re: why do we suck?

This is a tiny sample size.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 10 2012 04:12 PM Re: why do we suck?

Teeny tiny.

Ceetar Sep 10 2012 04:55 PM Re: why do we suck?

G-Fafif wrote: I swear I'm not not making this up. The most awesome batting practice display I ever saw in attendance by a home team Met was put on by ..... Bruce Boisclair. And clearly that was because Joe Torre made sure to let him hit at 7:55 for those 8:05 starts. the reports were that Gary Matthews Jr always "won" batting practice with the Mets. Gary Sheffield did well too.

seawolf17 Sep 10 2012 06:00 PM Re: why do we suck?

Ceetar wrote: Simple solution: Sign or trade for a guy who will make CitiField his bitch. Knock HR's left and right. Adam Dunn? I've always wanted him as a Met.

MFS62 Sep 10 2012 10:16 PM Re: why do we suck?

Edgy DC wrote: There's definitely a crisis of confidence we're witnessing. Trust me, I also have trouble scoring at home, so I know whereof I speak. Hmmm. Maybe Edgy has the answer. When the guys are at home with their wives, they're not getting laid as much as they are on the road. And the worse they hit, the less they get. (A Bizarro world Lysistrata) The need doesn't need more hitters. All the guys need is some more nookie. Bring on the Baseball Annies. Later

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 11 2012 05:44 AM Re: why do we suck?

I swear I'm not not making this up. The most awesome batting practice display I ever saw in attendance by a home team Met was put on by ..... Bruce Boisclair. And clearly that was because Joe Torre made sure to let him hit at 7:55 for those 8:05 starts. Never Forget 9/11 ... and Bruce's 23rd inning debut.

Edgy MD Sep 11 2012 08:15 AM Re: why do we suck?

Boisclair may be an interesting precedent for Duda. Bruce never showed Duda's level of power, but both were goofy looking corner outfielders, both were batting practice superstars, and both put up occasional runs of goodness while stuck on struggling Met teams desperate for the sustained run that never came from them. If the pattern holds, Duda will end up starring for the Hanshin Tigers.

Vic Sage Sep 11 2012 08:24 AM Re: why do we suck?

Boisclair offered a bit more contact, much less power, and a much better glove. And he played with Seaver, who gave him total consciousness... so he had that going for him.

Frayed Knot Sep 11 2012 08:08 PM Re: why do we suck?

Back to the CitiField thing - every team in the NL East has a winning record at CitiField except for ... the New York Mets Phils = 17-16 Braves = 22-16 Marlins = 17-16 Nats = 20-15 Mets = 152-161 That right there is a big part of the problem. Now we just have to figure out how to solve it.

Vic Sage Sep 11 2012 08:13 PM Re: why do we suck?

the best way for the Mets to start winning at home would be to do what everybody else does... play the Mets.

Frayed Knot Sep 11 2012 08:14 PM Re: why do we suck?

Then there's the old joke about your team only having three problems 1) They can't win at home 2) They can't win on the road 3) They can't figure out where else to play

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 11 2012 08:28 PM Re: why do we suck?

Maybe a barge? Let's try a barge. It's not home, it's not away, and if this team ends up the same way next year, you just set the thing on fire and start again.

Ceetar Sep 11 2012 08:34 PM Re: why do we suck?

Frayed Knot wrote: Then there's the old joke about your team only having three problems 1) They can't win at home 2) They can't win on the road 3) They can't figure out where else to play We tried that. You don't remember how well the Mets did in Puerto Rico?

Frayed Knot Sep 11 2012 08:35 PM Re: why do we suck?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Maybe a barge? Let's try a barge. It's not home, it's not away, and if this team ends up the same way next year, you just set the thing on fire and start again. With the team still on it of course.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 11 2012 08:38 PM Re: why do we suck?

Frayed Knot wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Maybe a barge? Let's try a barge. It's not home, it's not away, and if this team ends up the same way next year, you just set the thing on fire and start again. With the team still on it of course. /Points to nose //Winks

Edgy MD Sep 11 2012 09:24 PM Re: why do we suck?

Fire at Citi, and they start playing at [crossout]KeyStone Park[/crossout] MCU Park. They escape a few ghosts and they begin a string of sellouts. Simple. They can hire one of their skeezy former clubbies to perform the arson and cash in big time with AIG or whoever insures them.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 12 2012 07:56 AM Re: why do we suck?

The Mets corrupted Edgy.

Vic Sage Sep 12 2012 08:01 AM Re: why do we suck?

bound to happen sooner or later. and it's [crossout:1qdql9mt]KeySPAN[/crossout:1qdql9mt], not [crossout:1qdql9mt]KeySTONE[/crossout:1qdql9mt]... Keystone is where the Mets play.

Edgy MD Sep 12 2012 08:33 AM Re: why do we suck?

Yeah, well, it ain't either now. The Mets make me dream of lager.

bmfc1 Sep 13 2012 05:32 AM Re: why do we suck?

Because that's what ho's gotta do to make money. Wrong thread?

Edgy MD Sep 13 2012 06:28 AM Re: why do we suck?

third in the league in offense in July. Suddenly Thole, Murphy, Wright, Tejada, Nieuwenhuis, and Duda all get a case of the noodlebats at the same time. If it's not a big enough sample size to trace, it sure is a big enough one to cripple the team's season. My new pet theories, all morale based: [list:t6i2zefc][*:t6i2zefc]Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them.[/*:m:t6i2zefc] [*:t6i2zefc]Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them.[/*:m:t6i2zefc] [*:t6i2zefc]The lost faith in Collins.[/*:m:t6i2zefc][/list:u:t6i2zefc] All morale based, because I got nothing else.

Ceetar Sep 13 2012 06:49 AM Re: why do we suck?

Edgy DC wrote: My new pet theories, all both morale based: [list][*]Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them.[/*:m] [*]Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them.[/*:m] [*]The lost faith in Collins.[/*:m][/list:u] All morale based, because I got nothing else. I doubt those things. While players may ponder guys sucking getting playing time, I think they're also sure that Bay could wake up one day and suddenly be good again. The "He's a good guy" bit doesn't fly with fans much, but I think it plays into the teammate angle. If it's morale based, I think it stems from losing Gee to a medical thing.

Frayed Knot Sep 13 2012 07:14 AM Re: why do we suck?

This snapshot of the last 6 games probably provides as good an example as we need of our suckiness: 6 games w/9 runs scored in total 44 hits plus 17 walks -- a not very robust .220 BA and .280-ish OBA but not uniquely horrid for a small sample size and not something that should be 1.5 runs/game horrid What kills things (Part 1) is that 36 of those hits were singles with 3 doubles & 3 HRs thrown in What kills things (Part 2), as anyone who watched even a little could figure out, it was the (lack of) timing of those hits - They were 5-for 43 (.116) with RiSP - As bad as that was, only three of those five RiSP hits managed to knock in a run - No hit scored more than one run as all 3 HRs were solos and 3 other hits (1 single, 2 doubles) knocked in a single run each - The other 38 hits came either with bases-empty or with a man on 1st only

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 13 2012 07:15 AM Re: why do we suck?

Ceetar wrote: My new pet theories, all both morale based: [list][*]Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them.[/*:m] [*]Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them.[/*:m] [*]The lost faith in Collins.[/*:m][/list:u] All morale based, because I got nothing else. I doubt those things. While players may ponder guys sucking getting playing time, I think they're also sure that Bay could wake up one day and suddenly be good again. The "He's a good guy" bit doesn't fly with fans much, but I think it plays into the teammate angle. If it's morale based, I think it stems from losing Gee to a medical thing. Hahahahaha! Right, Bay has something left, and they're broken up over losing a 5th starter. I won't say the downturn coincides precisely with Bay's return, since I think they were exhibiting signs of a team that would struggle as early as the Cubs series prior to the ASB, but they played like absolute shit with him in the lineup and allegedly healthy. Christ, Vinny Rottino would have provided more wins than him. I absoluetly think this team stopped believing in itself and for good reason: That the org had almost no interest in improving them was palpable and they must have realized by now that Terry's frequent admonitions to "play better or we'll find someone who will" was an empty threat.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 13 2012 07:26 AM Re: why do we suck?

Maybe they suck ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . because they suck.

Ceetar Sep 13 2012 07:34 AM Re: why do we suck?

talking about from a athlete standpoint. Maybe it's wool over the eyes, but to accept that Bay will never hit again is to accept that you could wake up tomorrow and never hit again. So much of baseball is getting over and ignoring failure (the 3/10 thing) that I don't know if they look at Bay as an albatross (and it would be far from the most shocking thing if Bay had a good year next year, on any team) And they didn't lose a "fifth starter" they lost a teammate. No different if the guy at your office who's not necessarily good at his job has a Triple Bypass or something and is out for three months.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 13 2012 07:38 AM Re: why do we suck?

Do you know how much pressure ML ballplayers are under? Especially the young guys who haven't hit free agency. Pressure to keep their jobs .. to demonstrate that they're everyday players ... so that they can one day sign an eight figure contract. And these guys, the Murphys and Tholes are pissing it all away, not from a lack of talent .... but because Dillon Gee is out for the season?

bmfc1 Sep 13 2012 07:44 AM Re: why do we suck?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Maybe they suck ... because they suck. Are you suggesting that it's just that the Mets have players with less talent and skill than other teams?

Ceetar Sep 13 2012 07:45 AM Re: why do we suck?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Do you know how much pressure ML ballplayers are under? Especially the young guys who haven't hit free agency. Pressure to keep their jobs .. to demonstrate that they're everyday players ... so that they can one day sign an eight figure contract. And these guys, the Murphys and Tholes are pissing it all away, not from a lack of talent .... but because Dillon Gee is out for the season? No, I'm saying it's more likely than quitting on Collins or Bay's return, and is maybe 1% of the overall reason and that I can see how it would be a little bit of a shot to the gut to lose a teammate/friend to a medical thing. They suck because they're a combination of young/inexperienced, untalented, and slow to make adjustments to the adjustments other teams made off their first half success. But that's a boring reason. Here's another random thought that probably means absolutely nothing. Are they swinging too hard? Have they got caught up in a lack of power that they swing too hard and often end up with bad contact and infield dribblers? Does that pressure you mention manifest itself in guys that may be on the cusp trying to boost their HR numbers thinking it'll earn them next years job?

Edgy MD Sep 13 2012 07:48 AM Re: why do we suck?

My new pet theories, all both morale based: [list][*]Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them.[/*:m] [*]Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them.[/*:m] [*]The lost faith in Collins.[/*:m][/list:u] All morale based, because I got nothing else. I doubt those things. While players may ponder guys sucking getting playing time, I think they're also sure that Bay could wake up one day and suddenly be good again. The "He's a good guy" bit doesn't fly with fans much, but I think it plays into the teammate angle. If it's morale based, I think it stems from losing Gee to a medical thing. I doubt them too. My point is that, while I think this team is demoralized, I'm at a loss as to why that is and why that happened when it did. It's likely a large combination of things that shattered their faith (perhaps realistically) in their ability to keep playing at the level they had been. I do know my guesses are at least as good as the one about "losing Gee to a medical thing."

bmfc1 Sep 13 2012 07:49 AM Re: why do we suck?

Ceetar wrote: They suck because they're a combination of young/inexperienced, untalented, and slow to make adjustments to the adjustments other teams made off their first half success. Yup.

Ceetar Sep 13 2012 07:55 AM Re: why do we suck?

Edgy DC wrote: I doubt them too. My point is that, while I think this team is demoralized, I'm at a loss as to why that is and why that happened when it did. It's likely a large combination of things that shattered their faith (perhaps realistically) in their ability to keep playing at the level they had been. I do know my guesses are at least as good as the one about "losing Gee to a medical thing." sure. Everyone has a different thing that makes them tick, gets them motivated, makes them check out, etc. Some people bounce back better from it, some shake it off better. Shockingly, they're all human beings. They could be dealing with marital problems, a sick parent, a new kid, a nagging injury, depression, bed bugs, and any number of things. Here's a more interesting question (to me anyway) Do you think any of this means anything about how the team will play when it shows up in April next year? Or is what we're seeing now the basis of the saying about how you can't trust what you see in September?

Lefty Specialist Sep 13 2012 08:20 AM Re: why do we suck?

The question regarding the offense isn't why it disappeared, but why it was actually scoring runs in the first place. One thing noted with frequency in the first half of the season was how many runs they scored with two outs. It was a statistical anomaly, and sure enough, it didn't last. There's a randomness factor to that. Secondly, they have no power and no team speed. That makes it hard to score runs in bunches. Thirdly, in the first half, there were guys who were contributing that you wouldn't have expected, like Nieuwenhuis, who was on a pretty good run initially until the league figured out how to pitch him, Hairston, Baxter and even Duda for a while. And David was flirting with .400. All these things flamed out in the second half (Baxter crunching his shoulder in the no-no didn't help). This team has gaping holes. I don't think one player fixes the outfield. By my count, they need three outfielders, a real second baseman and a catcher. And most of a new bullpen. That's a tall order for Sandy to fill. He'll have to get creative.

metirish Sep 13 2012 08:35 AM Re: why do we suck?

How pathetic is the offense? , Christ Almighty, look at this from the UMDB.......home games http://ultimatemets.com/gameresults.php you can't win scoring so few runs obviously.... saw a blurb last night on SNY.....didn't pay a lot of attention but it was something about the Mets becoming one of four teams in like the last 50/100 years(wasn't paying attention) to score so few runs in consecutive home games.....something like that, wasn't good anyway... Grim, how come when I link to what I am seeing in UMDB is goes to blank when I open the link?

Ceetar Sep 13 2012 08:39 AM Re: why do we suck?

Lefty Specialist wrote: The question regarding the offense isn't why it disappeared, but why it was actually scoring runs in the first place. One thing noted with frequency in the first half of the season was how many runs they scored with two outs. It was a statistical anomaly, and sure enough, it didn't last. There's a randomness factor to that. Secondly, they have no power and no team speed. That makes it hard to score runs in bunches. Thirdly, in the first half, there were guys who were contributing that you wouldn't have expected, like Nieuwenhuis, who was on a pretty good run initially until the league figured out how to pitch him, Hairston, Baxter and even Duda for a while. And David was flirting with .400. All these things flamed out in the second half (Baxter crunching his shoulder in the no-no didn't help). This team has gaping holes. I don't think one player fixes the outfield. By my count, they need three outfielders, a real second baseman and a catcher. And most of a new bullpen. That's a tall order for Sandy to fill. He'll have to get creative. They also scored, statistically, way fewer runs with 1-out in the first half. So was no real reason to say a regression meant less runs. Nieuwenhuis and Duda were providing some power early. And while they didn't really have 'speed' exactly, Nieuwenhuis, Wright, Tejada, Bay, Hairston, Murphy, Baxter, Turner all probably possess something of average speed or so. certainly enough for most of them to routinely go first-third. Duda Ike and Thole are pretty slow, but I wonder if, particularly for Duda and Thole, if they're a little bit tentative on the bases too. Maybe they need all that stuff. Maybe someone next year doesn't put up the exact same line as this year. (Thole for instance. concussion?) Murphy and Tejada are probably okay, at least in the sense that it's harder to find an upgrade and the upgrade wouldn't be as large. I doubt we need three outfielders. It's too early to give up on Duda or Nieuwenhuis. Baxter/Hairston could probably be a good platoon or at least a good 20% of the playing time in a rotation of sorts. Maybe Torres..I dunno. He's probably could be a decent 4th OF and defensive replacement especially if Hairston and Duda might be in the corners on a given day.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 13 2012 08:46 AM Re: why do we suck?

metirish wrote: Grim, how come when I link to what I am seeing in UMDB is goes to blank when I open the link? It's an HTML thing. That form is a POST instead of a GET.

Vic Sage Sep 13 2012 09:39 AM Re: why do we suck?

this thread took a turn somewhere. my initial question was why were we so much worse offensively at home (the worst in the league) than on the road (near the top), when CitiField was playing as a slightly but not overly pitching-friendly park, and visiting teams were not suffering the same degree of impact playing here. the only reasonable answers i got were "small sample size", but if 5/6ths of a season is a small sample size, than so is a season. And i'm willing to accept the proposition that an entire season is too small a sample size for the distinction between home/road production to be accurately assessed. But then "park factor" is meaningless, too, right? Anyway, the question devolved into why the Mets suck overall and we started psychoanalyzing the players, the coaches, the gm, etc., but i don't think you need to get into ephemera to answer THAT question. The Mets suck because their players aren't good enough... many analysts said so before the season, and so did some folks here. And if they continue to suck next year, it won't be because they carried their hurt feelings over the medical condition of Dillon Gee into next April, but because they didn't have a significant turnover of personnel. And with so much of their projected payroll tied up in 4 or 5 players (depending on what they do with Dickey and Wright's final year contracts), such turnover seems likely to be an increase in rookies and castoff vets from other teams. Which doesn't bode well for a quick turnaround.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 13 2012 09:50 AM Re: why do we suck?

I agree. While I'd be quite happy to be pleasantly surprised, the most optimistic I can get at this point is to figure 2013 will be spent positioning the team for possible contention in 2014, when the contacts of Bay and Santana are gone.

Edgy MD Sep 13 2012 09:51 AM Re: why do we suck?

Ceetar wrote: Everyone has a different thing that makes them tick, gets them motivated, makes them check out, etc. Some people bounce back better from it, some shake it off better. Shockingly, they're all human beings. They could be dealing with marital problems, a sick parent, a new kid, a nagging injury, depression, bed bugs, and any number of things. "Morale" speaks more to the condition of groups, rather than individuals.

Ceetar Sep 13 2012 10:11 AM Re: why do we suck?

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: Everyone has a different thing that makes them tick, gets them motivated, makes them check out, etc. Some people bounce back better from it, some shake it off better. Shockingly, they're all human beings. They could be dealing with marital problems, a sick parent, a new kid, a nagging injury, depression, bed bugs, and any number of things. "Morale" speaks more to the condition of groups, rather than individuals. groups don't think. it's a collection of different individuals with vastly different thoughts, and my point is that given the situation, many of these individuals have diverted focuses which affects the overall unity of the group. and indeed, the group no longer has the same directive as a whole. We, and the Mets, and Terry, want to see different things from Lucas Duda than they do from Bobby Parnell and David Wright.

Edgy MD Sep 13 2012 10:13 AM Re: why do we suck?

Look up morale for me, please. Thoughts and emotions do indeed have a way of infesting groups. Ask any survivors of the American embassy in Libya. This is really, really silly when we have to open dictionaries.

Lefty Specialist Sep 13 2012 02:24 PM Re: why do we suck?

suck verb \?s?k\ Definition of SUCK transitive verb 4 slang : to be objectionable or inadequate Origin of SUCK Middle English suken, from Old English s?can; akin to Old High German s?gan to suck, Latin sugere First Known Use: before 12th century Related to SUCK Synonyms: bite [slang], smell, stink [slang] Antonyms: rock [slang], rule [slang]

seawolf17 Sep 13 2012 02:30 PM Re: why do we suck?

I'm still pretty sure it's linked to wearing the black unis on John Franco night.

G-Fafif Sep 13 2012 03:09 PM Re: why do we suck?

Sucking and the toll it's taking on co-bloggers. And won't somebody think of the children? My kid, raised in a rabidly blue and orange household, increasingly doesn’t watch at all. He’d rather read, or play with Legos, or do anything else. I don’t bother arguing — watching Andres Torres once again forget how many outs there are isn’t exactly going to make him back into a fan. Joshua goes to sleep under a framed picture featuring shots of Reyes and Wright. We haven’t replaced the Reyes picture, because who would the replacement be? When Wright is also an anachronism, I suspect the picture will just come down, with no replacement at all.

Edgy MD Sep 13 2012 03:49 PM Re: why do we suck?

seawolf17 wrote: I'm still pretty sure it's linked to wearing the black unis on John Franco night. That's my kind of answer.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 13 2012 04:43 PM Re: why do we suck?

G-Fafif wrote: Sucking and the toll it's taking on co-bloggers. And won't somebody think of the children? My kid, raised in a rabidly blue and orange household, increasingly doesn’t watch at all. He’d rather read, or play with Legos, or do anything else. I don’t bother arguing — watching Andres Torres once again forget how many outs there are isn’t exactly going to make him back into a fan. Joshua goes to sleep under a framed picture featuring shots of Reyes and Wright. We haven’t replaced the Reyes picture, because who would the replacement be? When Wright is also an anachronism, I suspect the picture will just come down, with no replacement at all. That was the saddest, most depressingly true piece I've ever seen outta either of youse two. I took YoungerPooper to the 9/11 Dickey game, and found myself faking enthusiasm throughout the game for her... it was deflating.

Vic Sage Sep 14 2012 08:23 AM Re: why do we suck?

i refused to take my kids to any games this year; i didn't want to be charged with child abuse.

metsmarathon Sep 14 2012 09:25 AM Re: why do we suck?

well, i'm not sure if these two stats have been mentioned as yet... on the road, mets pitchers allow a 0.309 babip to the tune of a 0.733 OPS, while mets hitters have gotten a 0.309 babip to the tune of a 0.730 ops. at home, mets pitchers allow a 0.284 babip to the tune of a 0.695 OPS, while mets hitters have gotten a 0.292 babip to the tune of a 0.674 OPS. relative to the road team, the mets do a better job of getting hits when they put the ball in play, they just don't put it in play for (much) power. citi seems to increase strike out rate for batters, but the effect is more pronounced on their opponents than on the mets. so that's not it. yes, they take more walks, but how do they get more hits with what looks like worse contact? is it that, at home, they swing easier, just content to serve the ball into the shallow outfield, whereas on the road they're more likely to swing for the fences? that's like the only thing htat makes sense. i don't see ld% or anything like that on bbref for home/road splits, so the answer may lie therein as well. its just really really odd.

metsmarathon Sep 14 2012 09:44 AM Re: why do we suck?

mets home LD% = 21.9% mets road LD% = 22.7% mets home HR/FB% = 9.5% mets road HR/FB% = 10.5 oddly, for mets pitching, they give up a higher HR/FB% at home rather than away... 11% vs 9.8% mets pitchers must pitch up in the zone more at home - they have a 1.07 GB/FB% at home vs a 1.26 GB/FB% on the road. the batters are more consistent 1.41 GB/FB% home vs. 1.43% GB/FB% road.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 14 2012 10:31 AM Re: why do we suck?

I was wondering if perhaps they sac bunted more at home than on the road (to play for a tie) but that doesn't seem to be the case. Here are the numbers (of successful sacrifice hits) from the last few years: 2006 A 69 2006 H 84 2007 A 75 2007 H 68 2008 A 71 2008 H 75 2009 A 86 2009 H 73 2010 A 77 2010 H 70 2011 A 75 2011 H 85 2012 A 55 2012 H 54

Ashie62 Sep 14 2012 04:40 PM Re: why do we suck?

Citifield was built on an Indian burial ground. Excorcism needed, or have Franco get a bunch of guys to rebuild Shea over the winter.