Master Index of Archived Threads


Awards Week

Frayed Knot Nov 07 2012 09:34 PM

OK it's next week - except for Silver Sluggers which will be tomorrow (Thurs, 11/8). But, just like with the Gold Gloves, they're doing this three finalists stuff for each award by announcing ahead of time who the top three contenders are (top 5 for MVP) for each. And, for the first time, they're going to announce these things live on MLBN at 6 PM each day. I'm not sure I like this method as some years more than three players receive 1st place votes so limiting it ahead of time can take one or more guys out of contention even though an argument can be made. Also not sure I see the point in it all but whatever. Rookies -- Monday Nov 12 AL: Yu Darvish (Tex), Mike Trout (LAA), Yeonis Cespedes (Oak) NL: Todd Fraizer (Cin), Bryce Harper (Wash), Wade Miley (Arz) Managers -- Tuesday Nov 13 AL: Buck Showalter (Bal), Robin Ventura (CHW), Bob Melvin (Oak) NL: Dusty Baker (Cin), Bruce Bochy (SFG), Davey Johnson (Wash) Cy Young -- Wed Nov 14 AL: David Price (TBR), Justin Verlander (Det), Jered Weaver (LAA) NL: RA Dickey (NYM), Gio Gonzalez (Wash), Clayton Kershaw (LAD) So I guess that takes any suspense out of whether a reliever (Kimbrel, Chapman) will be considered MVP -- Thrus Nov 15 Robinson Cano (NYY), Josh Hamilton (Tex), Mike Trout (LAA), Adrien Beltre (Tex), Miguel Cabrera (Det) NL: Ryan Braun (Mil), Chase Headley (SDP), Andrew McCutcheon (Pitt), Yadier Molina (StL), Buster Posey (SFG)

Frayed Knot Nov 08 2012 05:20 PM Re: Awards Week

Silver Slugger Awards C: Posey & Pierzynski 1B: LaRoche & Fielder 2B: Aaron Hill & Cano SS: Ian Desmond & Jeter 3B: Chase Headley & Miguel Cabrera LF: Braun & Josh Willingham CF: McCutcheon & Trout RF: Jay Bruce & Josh Hamilton P: Steven Strasberg DH: Billy Butler

Edgy MD Nov 08 2012 05:42 PM Re: Awards Week

Willingham and LaRoche were always great bats to have around. Always able to produce as long as you didn't ask too much of them. But pencil them in as the number six hitter or the fourth outfielder and they may well surprise you by the end of the season. How and when they became the best hitting firstbaseman and leftfielder in the league is a mystery to me. Good for them, and chalk one each up to Davey Johnson and Ron Gardenhire. Heck, Davey Johnson, special assistant with the Nats back in 2010, probably gets an assist for Willingham.

Frayed Knot Nov 08 2012 07:44 PM Re: Awards Week

Willingham was just always limited by everything else in his game except for his hitting. LaRoche had a legitimately great year all around and should be a top-10 MVP guy. But for the SS it helped him to have Pujols & Fielder leave his league at the same time that Howard & Votto were missing a chunk of the season.

Edgy MD Nov 09 2012 07:24 AM Re: Awards Week

[*]And... Ike Davis sleepwalking through the first two months of the season. [*]And... Freddie Freeman deciding to put off getting better for a year or so. [*]And... Gaby Sanchez getting a blood transfusion from Jason Bay. [*]And... Allen Craig being held up until May 1 to get started. [*]And... Cory Hart spending 1/3 of this season in the outfield. [*]And... Anthony Rizzo spending an absolutely huge chunk of his productivity in the Pacific Coast League. [*]And... The league has a lot of good firstbasemen. Paul Godschmidt and Yonder Alonso too. Brandon Belt ain't bad either, but his ballpark dulls his shine. Things just really fell into place for LaRoche in a way I wouldn't expect them to again. But Davey Johnson sure gets his players to play.

Ashie62 Nov 10 2012 09:41 AM Re: Awards Week

Goldschmidt is close. Belt will figure it out. Dickey deserves it over Kershaw..

Frayed Knot Nov 10 2012 10:26 AM Re: Awards Week

Edgy DC wrote: [*]And... Ike Davis sleepwalking through the first two months of the season. [*]And... Freddie Freeman deciding to put off getting better for a year or so. [*]And... Gaby Sanchez getting a blood transfusion from Jason Bay. [*]And... Allen Craig being held up until May 1 to get started. [*]And... Cory Hart spending 1/3 of this season in the outfield. [*]And... Anthony Rizzo spending an absolutely huge chunk of his productivity in the Pacific Coast League. [*]And... The league has a lot of good firstbasemen. Paul Godschmidt and Yonder Alonso too. Brandon Belt ain't bad either, but his ballpark dulls his shine. Things just really fell into place for LaRoche in a way I wouldn't expect them to again. But Davey Johnson sure gets his players to play. Thing is, it was a good year for LaRoche but not outrageously so. HIs BA & OBA were essentially identical to his career averages (3 & 5 points up) and while his 33 HRs were a career high it was only by one as he did hit 25 or more four times during his other six full ML seasons. In all he's put together some nice years during his nine overall seasons, just done so kind of quietly and doesn't seem to hang around in one spot for very long. Logged time on three different teams in 2009 alone. The odd part may be that his now 28 y/o brother Andy was considered the better prospect coming up but he spent his entire 2012 season split between AAA Columbus & Pawtucket in the Cleveland & Boston orgs not getting a call by either even as both clubs put up very sorry and injured-plagued ML squads. While there he even manned all four IF positions, plus DH, plus logged a scoreless inning of pitching. Problem is he did so while hitting quite mediocre-ly.

Frayed Knot Nov 12 2012 04:53 PM Re: Awards Week Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 14 2012 01:18 PM

RoYs: PLAYER TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd TOTAL Mike Trout Angels 28 0 0 140 Yoenis Cespedes A’s 0 19 6 63 Yu Darvish Rangers 0 9 19 46 Wei-Yen Chen Orioles 0 0 2 2 Jarrod Parker A’s 0 0 1 1 PLAYER TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd TOTAL Bryce Harper Nationals 16 8 8 112 Wade Miley DBacks 12 13 6 105 Todd Fraizer Reds 3 7 9 45 Willin Rosario Rockies 1 2 1 12 Norichika Aoki Brewers 0 2 5 11 Yonder Alonso Padres 0 0 1 1 Matt Carpenter Cardinals 0 0 1 1 Jordan Pacheco Rockies 0 0 1 1

Edgy MD Nov 13 2012 09:37 AM Re: Awards Week

On the other hand...

Benjamin Grimm Nov 13 2012 10:02 AM Re: Awards Week

Eighteen hours until we get the news on Dickey. I'll be driving home from work, listening to NPR. There's very little chance that they'll mention it. If I think of it, I may switch to WFAN, but only briefly. (There's only so much WFAN I can stand.)

Mets – Willets Point Nov 13 2012 10:18 AM Re: Awards Week

Benjamin Grimm wrote: If I think of it, I may switch to WFAN, but only briefly. (There's only so much WFAN I can stand.) It's kind of like staring at the sun, you can do it for a few moments but then you've just got to turn away

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2012 10:33 AM Re: Awards Week

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Eighteen hours until we get the news on Dickey. Actually about 30 hours (from when you wrote that). They're going with 6PM announcements in conjunction with a show on MLBN - so they might not even get around to it until nearly 7 on Wednesday depending on whether they do AL or NL first. I'll be driving home from work, listening to NPR. There's very little chance that they'll mention it. If I think of it, I may switch to WFAN, but only briefly. (There's only so much WFAN I can stand.) Maybe no one can cover it worse than ESPN. I flicked by 'Sportscenter' this morning and caught their announcement of the winners, which led them into a (much longer) retrospective on past rookie greats. Past Baseball rookie greats? Of course not. All of the past winners they thought to be worthy of truly great rookie seasons just happened to be NFL & NBA rookie greats. Apparently a past stellar season from a teenage phenom like Tony Conigliaro wasn't on their radar screen, and the likes of Jackie Robinson, Alex Rodriguez, Ken Griffey, etc. just didn't make their cut in a discussion of great rookie seasons. Certainly can't compare to the likes of Randy Moss & Cam Newton. I then heard them tell me that "coach of the year" would be announced tonight.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2012 10:48 AM Re: Awards Week

Really? Jeeps.

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2012 06:16 PM Re: Awards Week

MoYs MGR TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd TOTAL Bob Melvin A’s 16 12 0 116 Buck Showalter Orioles 12 16 0 106 Robin Ventura White Sox 0 0 12 12 Joe Maddon Rays 0 0 7 7 Joe Girardi Yankees 0 0 5 5 Jim Leyland Tigers 0 0 2 2 Ron Washington Rangers 0 0 2 2 MGR TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd TOTAL Davey Johnson Nationals 23 4 4 131 Dusty Baker Reds 5 14 10 77 Bruce Bochy Giantss 4 10 11 61 Fredi Gonzalez Braves 0 4 5 17 Bud Black Padres 0 0 1 1 Mike Matheny Cardinals 0 0 1 1

Edgy MD Nov 14 2012 07:03 AM Re: Awards Week

Davey in the gravy. Amazingly never won the NL MoY, despite turning both the Mets and the Reds around. Won one for the Orioles in 1997, which was announced the same day he tendered his resignation under duress to Peter Angelos.

TransMonk Nov 14 2012 11:21 AM Re: Awards Week

Per Rubin: NL Cy Young will be announced at 6:47 p.m. ET.

Frayed Knot Nov 14 2012 11:27 AM Re: Awards Week

TransMonk wrote: Per Rubin: NL Cy Young will be announced at 6:47 p.m. ET. I haven't been watching any of these shows that they've put together for RoY or MoY, but they've essentially created a full hour show to read off two names so obviously they use much of that time trying to simulate as much "tension" as possible.

metirish Nov 14 2012 12:09 PM Re: Awards Week

Fuck, I have to leave my house at 6:45, going to miss the announcment..... I watched the first show where they announced the finalists.....yeah, too long, I do like Harold Reynolds though, he's found a good spot on the MLB Network.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 14 2012 12:14 PM Re: Awards Week

Tensions were inadvertently broken via twitter, breaking news prematurely for Gold Glove (Brandon Phillips), NY ROY and NL MOY (congratulatory tweets from nationals official feed). All bs.

Frayed Knot Nov 14 2012 01:12 PM Re: Awards Week

Ever since the NFL draft and 'Selection Sunday' became 'must see' events (for some anyway) in their own right, this trend toward making an entire show out of these silly non-events like an award announcement or the unveiling of a list has become de rigueur for these sports. Besides, what else do these channels have to do with their time?

Frayed Knot Nov 14 2012 01:15 PM Re: Awards Week

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Tensions were inadvertently broken via twitter, breaking news prematurely for Gold Glove (Brandon Phillips), NY ROY and NL MOY (congratulatory tweets from nationals official feed). All bs. So if someone wants to follow the Nats tweets again and see if there's a premature congrats for Gio Gonzalez then we'll know ahead of time. Nats front office probably won't be able to contain themselves if they hit on three in a row this week.

Kong76 Nov 14 2012 03:22 PM Re: Awards Week

Frayed Knot wrote: Besides, what else do these channels have to do with their time? Those hour long shows are just a small step up from an hour-long show of Bucky Dent hightlights.

Ceetar Nov 14 2012 04:36 PM Re: Awards Week

Kong76 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Besides, what else do these channels have to do with their time? Those hour long shows are just a small step up from an hour-long show of Bucky Dent hightlights. i'm surprised there isn't already a Yankees channel that's just an animated GIF of Derek Jeter.

Ashie62 Nov 14 2012 04:39 PM Re: Awards Week

Dickey's trade value peaks in about a half hour.

Gwreck Nov 14 2012 04:52 PM Re: Awards Week

He wins

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 14 2012 04:56 PM Re: Awards Week

Ashie62 wrote: Dickey's trade value peaks in about a half hour. This hit me-- like, viscerally-- just after the joy.

Frayed Knot Nov 14 2012 05:00 PM Re: Awards Week

Not even close as it turned out. 27 1st place votes (of 32) and either 1st or 2nd on every ballot.

Ashie62 Nov 14 2012 05:47 PM Re: Awards Week

Everyone likes a great story.

Frayed Knot Nov 14 2012 05:53 PM Re: Awards Week Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 15 2012 06:16 AM

PITCHER TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th TOTAL R.A. Dickey Mets 27 5 0 0 0 209 Clayton Kershaw Dodgers 2 11 10 1 6 96 Gio Gonzalez Nationals 1 12 6 8 4 93 Johnny Cueto Reds 1 4 10 10 2 75 Craig Kimbrel Braves 1 0 5 5 9 41 Matt Cain Giants 0 0 1 6 7 22 Kyle Lohse Cardinals 0 0 0 2 2 6 Aroldis Chapman Reds 0 0 0 0 1 1 Cole Hamels Phillies 0 0 0 0 1 1

Benjamin Grimm Nov 14 2012 06:37 PM Re: Awards Week

He won it because Chris Christie said nice things about him.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 14 2012 06:41 PM Re: Awards Week

LOL

Frayed Knot Nov 14 2012 06:56 PM Re: Awards Week

Things were much closer on the AL side PITCHER TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd TOTAL David Price Rays 14 13 1 153 Justin Verlander Tigers 13 13 2 149 Jered Weaver Angels 0 2 14 70 Felix Hernandez Mariners 0 0 5 41 Fernando Rodney Rays 1 0 5 38 Chris Sale White Sox 0 0 1 17 Jim Johnson Orioles 0 0 0 5 Matt Harrison Rangers 0 0 0 2 Yu Darvish Rangers 0 0 0 1

TransMonk Nov 15 2012 08:00 AM Re: Awards Week

Let the record show that when the NL Cy Young went head-to-head against the AL Cy Young on 06/02/12, the Mets won 9-1. Dickey: Complete game one-hitter with 12 Ks and no walks. Price: 7 ER over 5 innings with 3 walks. That was one of my favorite (non-no-hitter) games of 2012.

Edgy MD Nov 15 2012 08:07 AM Re: Awards Week

Frayed Knot wrote: PITCHER TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th TOTAL R.A. Dickey Mets 27 5 0 0 0 209 Clayton Kershaw Dodgers 2 11 10 1 6 96 Gio Gonzalez Nationals 1 12 6 8 4 93 Johnny Cueto Reds 1 4 10 10 2 75 Craig Kimbrel Braves 1 0 5 5 9 41 Matt Cain Giants 0 0 1 6 7 22 Kyle Lohse Cardinals 0 0 0 2 2 6 Aroldis Chapman Reds 0 0 0 0 1 1 Cole Hamels Phillies 0 0 0 0 1 1 I don't know if we saw this race as closer than this because we had a stake in it. I've got to think that the greater R.A. Dickey story and his media savvyness/friendliness helped him. It's writers, after all, voting on it. Kind of expected a stray fourth or fifth place vote to go to Strasburg.

Frayed Knot Nov 15 2012 10:03 AM Re: Awards Week

Yeah, I think the raw stats indicated a closer race among the top three but that the totality of the Dickey-story (whacko pitch, old guy, career minor leaguer, missing ligament, etc) made for the bigger gap. I could make a good case for RA, just not sure I could make a 27-2-1 case. And did three voters actually think that Gio (1) and Kershaw (2) weren't in the top five?

Edgy MD Nov 15 2012 10:16 AM Re: Awards Week

Kershaw likely never got considered by those two because his relatively low win total kep' him off the shortlist. Progress, I think. Got to imagine that 25 years ago, he doesn't make the top five.

metsmarathon Nov 15 2012 10:24 AM Re: Awards Week

who's out there giving first place votes to kimbrel and rodney when there are clearly dominant starting pitchers to choose from?

MFS62 Nov 15 2012 10:46 AM Re: Awards Week

metsmarathon wrote: who's out there giving first place votes to kimbrel and rodney when there are clearly dominant starting pitchers to choose from? I heard (don't remember where - ESPN?) that it was their own baseball "Expert" Tim KJerkian who voted for Kimbrel. Later

Edgy MD Nov 15 2012 10:53 AM Re: Awards Week

I have no problem with that. I don't agree that a reliever shouldn't get considered unless no starter steps forward. It's a steeper hill to climb for relievers, but sometimes they climb it.

metsmarathon Nov 15 2012 11:12 AM Re: Awards Week

well, yes. my point is though that the hill was far steeper this year what with the quality of the starters' performances. kimbrel is impressive, but there are many better candidates. and, if i were to vote for a brave, i'd give it to that medlen kid first.

Frayed Knot Nov 15 2012 11:49 AM Re: Awards Week

Voters listing Dickey 2nd: - Tim Brown, Yahoo Sports; LA Chapter -- Voted for Kershaw 1st - Jerry Crasnick, ESPN.com, Philadelphia Chapter (Kershaw) - John Fay, Cincinnati Inquirer, Cincinnati Chapter (Cueto) - Tim Kurkjian, ESPN, Washington DC Chapter (Kimbrel) - Patrick Saunders, Denver Post, Denver Chapter (Gonzalez) http://bbwaa.com/12-nl-cy/

Edgy MD Nov 15 2012 12:11 PM Re: Awards Week

In-tryst-ting: Everybody there except Saunders has a horse in the race, psychogeogrphaically. I'd imagine they'd all deny it, and anyhow, I just made up the word "psychogeogrphaically," but there it is.

metsmarathon Nov 15 2012 12:36 PM Re: Awards Week

Edgy DC wrote: In-tryst-ting: Everybody there except Saunders has a horse in the race, psychogeogrphaically. I'd imagine they'd all deny it, and anyhow, I just made up the word "psychogeogrphaically," but there it is. well, you misspelled it, is what you did.

Edgy MD Nov 15 2012 12:52 PM Re: Awards Week

Ha! Real word after all. I'm going to submit a paper on this vote to Psychogeography Today.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 15 2012 03:12 PM Re: Awards Week

Just had a free hour while Artie was sleeping; made the mistake of using said hour to check out MLB Network's AL MVP roundtable "debate" (with Keith Olbermann, Joe Posnanski, and-- ick-- Chris Russo prominently featured). So, so much "winning matters" stuff, especially from ex-jocks (Harold Reynolds and Sean Casey chief among them). It's enough to make you think that ex-jocks should be eliminated in toto from any EVALUATIVE discussion, and stick only to the how-you-play analysis. Honestly, I'd much rather hear from ex-GMs like John Hart-- or even a Jim Bowden-- when you're talking about player-evaluation. Hell, just ONCE I'd like to hear someone rebut a "you never played the game/you don't know what it's like" argument with a "you never put together a player-eval/three-team trade."

MFS62 Nov 15 2012 03:42 PM Re: Awards Week

Harold Reynolds should not be able to take part in any discussion about award winners. He won a Golden Glove for a year in which he made 18 errors at second base, playing more than half his games on artificial turf. I'm guessing he'd give the award to somone based on reputation. Later

Frayed Knot Nov 15 2012 05:06 PM Re: Awards Week

Sugarpants finishes as high as he could considering he was the guy not invited to the prom. PLAYER TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th TOTAL BUSTER POSEY Giants 27 4 1 0 0 422 Ryan Braun Brewers 3 15 10 4 0 285 Andrew McCutcheon Pirates 0 6 13 11 1 245 Yadier Molina Cardinals 2 6 8 13 0 241 Chase Headley Padres 0 0 0 1 9 127 David Wright Mets 0 0 0 0 7 86 Adam LaRoche Nationals 0 0 0 0 6 86 Craig Kimbrel Braves 0 1 0 0 3 73 Aramis Ramirez Brewers 0 0 0 0 1 47 Also Jay Bruce - 46 Matt Holiday - 34 Aroldis Chapman - 20 Brandon Phillips - 18 Joey Votto - 18 RA Dickey - 16 Clayton Kershaw - 15 Ian Desmond - 15 Michael Braun - 12 Allen Craig - 10 Gio Gonzlaez - 8 Alfonso Soriano - 8 Kris Medlen - 8 Martin Prado - 8 Ryan Zimmerman - 7 Giancarlo Stanton - 7 Carlos Beltran - 6 Aaron Hill - 6 Carlos Ruiz - 4 Jason Heyward - 4 Johnny Cueto - 2 Bryce Harper - 2 Chipper Jones - 1 Miguel Montero - 1 Angel Pagan - 1 Hunter Pence - 1

metsmarathon Nov 15 2012 05:21 PM Re: Awards Week

What one-shovel-less-less-than-a-full-toolshed gave a vote to Raul fucking ibanez?

Frayed Knot Nov 15 2012 05:30 PM Re: Awards Week

And in the AL the BBWAA (in the view of many) keeps the world safe from statisticians with calculators by giving the award to the guy who proved his worth by ... by leading the league in a combination of statistics. PLAYER TEAM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th TOTAL Miguel Cabrera Tigers 22 6 0 0 0 362 Mike Trout Angels 6 21 1 0 0 281 Andrian Beltre Rangers 0 1 16 9 0 210 Robinson Cano Yankees 0 0 6 10 1 149 Josh Hamilton Rangers 0 0 0 3 6 127 Adam Jones Orioles 0 0 1 2 8 124 Derek Jeter Yankees 0 0 2 1 4 73 Justin Verlander Tigers 0 0 0 2 3 58 Prince Fielder Tigers 0 0 0 0 1 56 Also Yoenis Cespeds - 41 Edwin Encarnacion - 33 David Price - 26 Fernando Rodney - 24 Jim Johnson - 22 Alex Rios - 17 Josh Reddick - 14 Albert Pujols - 8 Ben Zobrist - 7 Joe Mauer - 6 Rafael Soriano - 5 Matt Weiters - 4 Felix Hernandez - 2 Jered Weaver - 2 Raul Ibanez - 1

Ashie62 Nov 15 2012 08:17 PM Re: Awards Week

Who voted for Adrian Beltre second?

Ceetar Nov 15 2012 08:21 PM Re: Awards Week

Ashie62 wrote: Who voted for Adrian Beltre second? Sheldon Ocker Akron Beacon Journal

Edgy MD Nov 16 2012 10:49 AM Re: Awards Week

What a holy stink on that Cabrera/Trout thingie. The Times, interestingly, aggregates the story, rather than covering it. Which of course is part of the problem. The more that credible sources become aggregators of information, the fewer credible sources there are providing it. Murray Chass, of course, shits a watermelon.

Ceetar Nov 16 2012 11:50 AM Re: Awards Week

Edgy DC wrote: What a holy stink on that Cabrera/Trout thingie. The Times, interestingly, aggregates the story, rather than covering it. Which of course is part of the problem. The more that credible sources become aggregators of information, the fewer credible sources there are providing it. Murray Chass, of course, shits a watermelon. Mitch Albom weighs in too apparently. I'm amused by it all.

Vic Sage Nov 16 2012 12:50 PM Re: Awards Week

It's the WAR war. It's stupid; Cabrera and Trout both had really good years. Either one is a valid MVP candidate. But the notion that a TRIPLE CROWN must = MVP is just silly. Why are OLD stats, which are demonstrably less related to run creation (and deal with run PREVENTION not at all) somehow SUPERIOR to modern stats, which have the benefit of being developed since the advent of computers and quantitative analysis? I think they are treated as better by some voters and commentators (and fans) just because they are more easily understood. And players sure don't want to hear about wins or RBIs being "team-dependent"; they take it as an article of faith that wins and RBIs are the consequence of personal character. They should all be excluded from these discussions. You don't ask a tree to describe the forest.

Edgy MD Nov 16 2012 01:08 PM Re: Awards Week

Vic Sage wrote: I think they are treated as better by some voters and commentators (and fans) just because they are more easily understood. Albom owns that one with pride. Today, every stat matters. There is no end to the appetite for categories -- from OBP to OPS to WAR. I mean, OMG! The number of triples hit while wearing a certain-colored underwear is probably being measured as we speak. So in areas such as "how many Cabrera home runs would have gone out in Angel Stadium of Anaheim" or "batting average when leading off an inning" or "Win Probability Added," Trout had the edge. At least this is what we were told. I mean, did you do the math? I didn't. I like to actually see the sun once in a while. But Trout excelled in the kind of numbers that weren't even considered a few years ago, mostly because A) They were impossible to measure, and B) Nobody gave a hoot. This is what drives me batty about the whole thing. Many of his superior numbers --- on-base percentage, stolen bases, and stolen base percentage --- are neither remotely new nor remotely esoteric. Albom is also unashamed about the "I cover Detroit sports and if you actually saw the guy, you'd know" argument. Besides, if you live in Detroit, you didn't need a slide rule. This was an easy choice. People here watched Cabrera, 29, tower above the game in 2012. Day after day, game after game, he was a Herculean force. Valuable? What other word was there? How many late-inning heroics? How many clutch hits? And he only missed one game all year. Yeah, well other people live in Southern California and saw a lot more of Trout than you did. That's why we ask people to attempt to be objective. Numbers are good for that. And be careful with those last three sentences in that paragraph. You're asking for statistical answers. OMG! The funny thing is that he plays the "And his team won so you know he's better!" argument even when it doesn't hold up. How about the fact that Cabrera's team made the playoffs and Trout's did not? ("Yes," countered Team Trout, "but the Angels actually won more games.") How about the fact that Cabrera played the whole season while Trout started his in the minors? ("Yes," said the Trout Shouters, "but the Angels won a greater percentage with Trout than Detroit did with Cabrera.") Hey, thanks for smashing your own arguments, Mitch. How about just dropping that stupid paragraph to begin with? How did Fire Joe Morgan! get shut down? There had to have been money to be made in stopping this sort of thing.

Ceetar Nov 16 2012 01:33 PM Re: Awards Week

the FJM guys went on to other things right? I'm sorta surprised no one's picked up the mantle more than occasionally.

Edgy MD Nov 16 2012 01:47 PM Re: Awards Week

And again Vic Sage wrote: Why are OLD stats, which are demonstrably less related to run creation (and deal with run PREVENTION not at all) somehow SUPERIOR to modern stats, which have the benefit of being developed since the advent of computers and quantitative analysis? I think they are treated as better by some voters and commentators (and fans) just because they are more easily understood. There is only one way to calculate batting average or on-base or slugging percentage, one way to calculate won-lost percentage or earned run average or baserunners per nine innings. Simple math, multiplication, division, that everyone learns in elementary school produces batting and earned run averages. WAR requires a Ph. D in math. Murray Chass, ladies and gentlemen. The former voice of the Times, scorning higher ed.

Frayed Knot Nov 16 2012 03:09 PM Re: Awards Week

I love the whole notion of the Trout-ites being basement shut-ins with their laptops who deal only in numbers and never watch the games while the "real" fans/writers know that Cabrera was superior because they consider the whole product ... and considering the whole product apparently means acting as if nothing but the TC-stats matter while things like glove-work, throwing, base-running and GiDPs must be irrelevant to the topic or else someone would have thought to concoct a simple stat for them decades ago. I have no problem if someone wants to make an argument in Miggy's favor but, fer crissakes, make it an intelligent one!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 16 2012 03:29 PM Re: Awards Week

It's also a lot simpler than WAR derivations or which-stat-is-less-old-fashioned: Cabrera was a superlative hitter; Trout was almost as superlative a hitter (or, really, as good or better), a lot better on the bases and FAR better defensively at a much more critical position.

HahnSolo Nov 16 2012 04:51 PM Re: Awards Week

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Just had a free hour while Artie was sleeping; made the mistake of using said hour to check out MLB Network's AL MVP roundtable "debate" (with Keith Olbermann, Joe Posnanski, and-- ick-- Chris Russo prominently featured). So, so much "winning matters" stuff, especially from ex-jocks (Harold Reynolds and Sean Casey chief among them). It's enough to make you think that ex-jocks should be eliminated in toto from any EVALUATIVE discussion, and stick only to the how-you-play analysis. Honestly, I'd much rather hear from ex-GMs like John Hart-- or even a Jim Bowden-- when you're talking about player-evaluation. Hell, just ONCE I'd like to hear someone rebut a "you never played the game/you don't know what it's like" argument with a "you never put together a player-eval/three-team trade." I, like you, actually saw this when it happened. It was classic Russo...all over the map, juggling his hands to make a point, he threw in one my favorite mispronunciations of his--"renember". My favorite moment was when Russo finished his 1-minute introductory argument, and Posnanski deadpanned, "I disagree with--literally--everything he just said."

Frayed Knot Nov 16 2012 05:04 PM Re: Awards Week

Brian Kenney (sp?) of MLBN put it as simply as he could during the award presentation show (I've heard him do the same elsewhere) without even getting into WAR or how it's calculated or whether it's accurate. -- He started by acknowledging the superiority of Cabrera's hitting this year but then factored in Trout's edge in all "the little things" that the anti-stats voters/fans claim to know, see, and value so much more than those shut-in nerds. He showed the differences in net stolen bases, plus extra bases taken (1st-3rd or 2nd-home on singles, 1st-to-home on 2Bs, etc.), plus the huge gulf in GiDPs ([u:3nhdzytg]28 vs 7 !!![/u:3nhdzytg]) and with simple addition & subtraction showed how those factors more or less (depending on how heavily one wants to weight such things) made up for the difference in raw offense that traditional stats give to Cabrera. And that's all before we even get to defense. Once one calculates, or even guess-timates, the gap between what no one disputes is a superior defensive CF vs a pedestrian-at-best corner infielder, it's not crazy at all to think that the non-TC winner was actually valuable and it doesn't even require an advanced math degree.

Ceetar Nov 16 2012 07:13 PM Re: Awards Week

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Just had a free hour while Artie was sleeping; made the mistake of using said hour to check out MLB Network's AL MVP roundtable "debate" (with Keith Olbermann, Joe Posnanski, and-- ick-- Chris Russo prominently featured). So, so much "winning matters" stuff, especially from ex-jocks (Harold Reynolds and Sean Casey chief among them). It's enough to make you think that ex-jocks should be eliminated in toto from any EVALUATIVE discussion, and stick only to the how-you-play analysis. Honestly, I'd much rather hear from ex-GMs like John Hart-- or even a Jim Bowden-- when you're talking about player-evaluation. Hell, just ONCE I'd like to hear someone rebut a "you never played the game/you don't know what it's like" argument with a "you never put together a player-eval/three-team trade." An integral part of Moneyball imo.