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2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

SteveJRogers
Nov 27 2012 03:03 PM

It's that time again!

[url]http://mets360.com/?p=13597

I'm very nervous about Piazza. Especially in light of Jeff Bagwell's performance last year, whom is the same category in terms of PED rumors as Piazza is.

Nymr83
Nov 27 2012 03:10 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

HOF balloting has become a joke with the "steroid guys.". After the farce was extended to Bagwell for suspected use, its safe to assume that the new eligibility standard is "doesn't look too strong," I don't feel good about Piazza's chances with Bagwell missing.

Nymr83
Nov 27 2012 03:29 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Try keeping this out of the Hall, douchebag writers!

[youtube:7cyecr23]www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBMC1tA4CdM&sns=tw[/youtube:7cyecr23]

Ceetar
Nov 27 2012 03:37 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

On the other hand, maybe Piazza can be the 'good guy' in comparison to Bonds and Clemens. Or that's what they're saving Bagwell for..

Edgy MD
Nov 27 2012 03:43 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Bagwell did it all as just another power-hitting firstbaseman. That he was better than most and played half his career in the Astrodome is worth considering, but more likely his luster is dimmed by playing in the shadow of the Frank Thomases and Mark McGwires and Andres Gallaragas and Rafael Palmeiros, the roidy smell of many of whom sticks to the others.

As a record-setting catcher, Piazza stands apart, I think. He may be a suspect by virtue of circumstancial evidence, but his records force the issue in a way that Bagwell doesn't. Does that make sense?

I think he's a first-ballot dude.

Nymr83
Nov 27 2012 03:51 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I think Bagwell's career easily surpasses that of Galaragga and is ahead of McGwire and Palmiero while being slightly behind Thomas. But I do get your point.

Vic Sage
Nov 27 2012 04:07 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edited 6 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2012 02:42 PM

[revised 11/30/12]

yes:
Roger Clemens *
Barry Bonds *
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines

Borderline / Yes:
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez

Borderline / No:
Mark McGwire *
Rafael Palmeiro *
Sammy Sosa *
Larry Walker
Jack Morris
Lee Smith

* = PED brigade


No, but stick around:
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Bernie Williams
Sandy Alomar Jr
Kenny Lofton

1-and-done:
Julio Franco
Shawn Green
Roberto Hernandez
David Wells
Steve Finley
Ryan Klesko
Mike Lieberthal
Jose Mesa
Tony Batista
Jeff Conine
Jeff Cirillo
Royce Clayton
Damian Miller
Reggie Sanders
Aaron Sele
Mike Stanton
Jose Valentin
Todd Walker
Rondell White
Bob Wickman
Woody Williams

Gwreck
Nov 27 2012 04:15 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I like that ballot, except I would put McGwire into the solid "yes" category. 11th on the career list in Adjusted OPS? Plus all the counting stats, etc. Compare to Sosa being 190th on that same list.

I would vote for McGwire, Bonds and -- yes -- Clemens without hesitation.

SteveJRogers
Nov 27 2012 04:21 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Would not be shocked if Wells got enough support based on his "clutch" performances and perceived "fun guy to have a beer with" schtick from voters who didn't have any interaction with him or care about all the "hearsay" stories to stick around at least another year though.

Frayed Knot
Nov 27 2012 05:24 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

My biggest Yeses would go to Piazza, Biggio & Raines.
I could possibly be talked into a few others and I think the Roids brigade is going to have to wait a bit longer until folks start to sort that era out in their minds.

seawolf17
Nov 27 2012 06:19 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Yes:
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy

No:
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Rafael Palmeiro
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Lee Smith
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Bernie Williams
Sandy Alomar Jr
Tony Batista
Jeff Cirillo
Royce Clayton
Jeff Conine
Steve Finley
Julio Franco
Shawn Green
Roberto Hernandez
Ryan Klesko
Mike Lieberthal
Kenny Lofton
Jose Mesa
Damian Miller
Reggie Sanders
Aaron Sele
Mike Stanton
Jose Valentin
Todd Walker
David Wells
Rondell White
Bob Wickman
Woody Williams

I always vote for ten, but I'm leaving Walker and McGwire off right now. Bonds and Clemens are both no because I just don't like either of them.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 27 2012 07:22 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire

The whole point of the HoF is to tell the story of baseball excellence, yes? How do you tell the story of excellence in the last 20 years without Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Rage McTeenFucker?

seawolf17
Nov 27 2012 07:35 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
The whole point of the HoF is to tell the story of baseball excellence, yes? How do you tell the story of excellence in the last 20 years without Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Rage McTeenFucker?

See, that's just it. That's one of my internal criteria for my HoF votes, which is why I'm going to have to bend on Bonds and McGwire at some point. (But not Clemens.)

Fman99
Nov 27 2012 07:37 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Yes:
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines

No:
The Other Dudes

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 27 2012 07:46 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Batch
Bigs
Bags
Bonds
Rock

Vic Sage
Nov 27 2012 09:14 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

the thing about the PEDs brigade is that Bonds and Clemens were clearly HOFers before their late career Roid-induced surges, whereas i think the HOF case for McGwire, Sosa and Palmiero relies primarily on their Roid years.

MFS62
Nov 27 2012 09:54 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2012 08:22 AM

Fman99 wrote:
Yes:
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines

No:
The Other Dudes

This.

OE: Add Trammell to my list of ins.

Later

metsguyinmichigan
Nov 28 2012 05:05 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I fear that the window for deserving people like Raines and Trammell has closed with all the studly and controversial people on ballot. Their best chances were when there were fewer no-brainers and some similar-level players -- Larkin, Blyleven -- were getting in.

I think Piazza gets in. I think Bonds, Clemens and the others will have to wait a while.

Ceetar
Nov 28 2012 06:48 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Vic Sage wrote:
the thing about the PEDs brigade is that Bonds and Clemens were clearly HOFers before their late career Roid-induced surges, whereas i think the HOF case for McGwire, Sosa and Palmiero relies primarily on their Roid years.


before the time we _think_ they started PEDs anyway. They were probably using amphetamines and other stuff before that too, just like everyone else.

Of course we don't even know that it helped either.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2012 07:29 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Nymr83 wrote:
I think Bagwell's career easily surpasses that of Galaragga and is ahead of McGwire and Palmiero while being slightly behind Thomas. But I do get your point.

Yeah, I agree, but that requires actual analysis. In the class picture, he's part of a crowd.


1-and-done:
Woody Williams

Hater.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Batch
Bigs
Bags
Bonds
Rock

A Hall of Fame ballot or an illicit drug order?

bmfc1
Nov 28 2012 11:13 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

As long as Piazza is in and Clemens is not, I won't complain.

Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Curt Schilling
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines.

Nymr83
Nov 28 2012 01:51 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The steroid guys are soon going to leave a huge backlog on the ballot to the point that the guys who deserve to stick around for further discussion (Mattingly, Morris, Martinez, etc) may soon drop off.

In: Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell, Raines, Trammell, Schilling

ROIDS: Clemens, Bonds, Palmiero, McGwire - let them in.

And now that we're done taking the moral high ground on steroids, put Pete Rose and Joe Jackson in the hall too. That doesn't mean Rose needs to be allowed around the game again but what he did as a player belongs in the history museum.

Close but no: Martinez, Sosa, L Walker, Morris - I feel like I've been staring at Morris' name on the ballot for as long as I've followed baseball, and I'm still not convinced. Sosa could turn me probably. The DH issue is a tough one. Walker looks bad (as a HOF-candidate, not a baseball player) when you adjust those numbers

No, but stay on the ballot: Smith, Mattingly, B Williams, McGriff, Alomar jr

Everyone else can drop off the ballot.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 28 2012 01:55 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Nymr83 wrote:
That doesn't mean Rose needs to be allowed around the game again but what he did as a player belongs in the history museum.


I think I'm in the minority here, but I see a distinction between the Hall and the Museum. Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe, Barry Bonds, etc. can have their stuff in the museum. But I do think that infamy (the opposite of Fame) should keep somebody out of the Hall. So I'd be quite happy if Clemens, Bonds, and McGwire never got inducted into the Hall.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2012 02:03 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I think that it's kind of hypocritical of the game to feature artifacts from people they have banned for life.

I mean, ban them if you want, but don't kick 'em out of the house and keep their stuff.

Saddest exhibit in the Hall of Fame was a letter begging for re-instatement from an obviously broken Joe Jackson.

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2012 02:13 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Sad maybe, but also part of the game's history.

The HoF is both a museum for the game's history and a gallery for the honoring of the game's best. I have no problem when there are conflicts within that dual mission.

Valadius
Nov 28 2012 02:57 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

My ballot:

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Martinez
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Walker

I would also put in:

Morris
Murphy
Palmeiro
Smith
Sosa
Trammell

I've been warning about the 2013 glut for something like four or five years now. It's really sad that we're going to have people waiting twenty years now most likely to get in via the Veteran's Committee when it should have taken six or seven, because some baseball writers give themselves bullshit cutoffs for their number of picks when they should be using all ten available. Really sad.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2012 03:01 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Valadius.

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2012 03:11 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Valadius wrote:
I've been warning about the 2013 glut for something like four or five years now. It's really sad that we're going to have people waiting twenty years now most likely to get in via the Veteran's Committee when it should have taken six or seven, because some baseball writers give themselves bullshit cutoffs for their number of picks when they should be using all ten available. Really sad.


Or maybe, just maybe mind you, they don't think that there are ten good choices each year.

Valadius
Nov 28 2012 03:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

For some that is clearly the case. But I've read enough "ballot explanations" where the voter writes "I never vote more than two guys because..." to know that this can have an effect.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2012 03:36 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Can you cite some?

Valadius
Nov 28 2012 04:05 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'll have to look. It's not like I bookmarked them.

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2012 04:08 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Career WAR (acc to BB-Ref)

Bonds = 158
Clemens = 134
Bagwell = 77
Schilling = 76
Walker = 70
Trammel = 67
Palmiero = 66
Raines = 66
Lofton = 65
E. Martinez = 64
Biggio = 62
McGwire = 59
Piazza = 56
Sosa = 55
Wells = 49
McGriff = 48
Bernie Williams = 46
Dale Murphy = 43
Finley = 40
Mattingly = 40
Julio Franco = 40
Morris = 39
Reggie Sanders = 37

metsguyinmichigan
Nov 28 2012 04:10 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Jay Jaffe on SI:

"It is also the one most fraught with controversy, as the top newcomers — Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa and Mike Piazza — have connections to performance-enhancing drugs to one degree or another."

Has Piazza EVER been connected to PEDs, other than the writer and the back acne stuff? He later said that Piazza admitted to using Andro. I don't recall this. Do you guys?

Val is right about the guys who only vote for a couple of people and no more. When I worked in Flint, two of the writers had ballots. One was very thoughtful and had a whole set of criteria he worked through for every guy on the ballot. I didn't always agree with him -- he always insisted on Ron Guidry -- but I respected the amount of work that he put in to it. That, and he always let me photo copy the blank ballot, which looked even more amateurish than you can imagine. I was always like, "This is it? Seriously?"

The other writer was one of those "Someone has to feel like a Hall of Famer" guys, and only picked two or three. Most of them Tigers....

TheOldMole
Nov 28 2012 04:27 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

And let's not forget the ever-unconscionable snub to Marvin Miller.

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2012 04:47 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Jay Jaffe on SI:

"It is also the one most fraught with controversy, as the top newcomers — Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa and Mike Piazza — have connections to performance-enhancing drugs to one degree or another."

Has Piazza EVER been connected to PEDs, other than the writer and the back acne stuff? He later said that Piazza admitted to using Andro. I don't recall this. Do you guys?


Via rumors, yeah. But that's how the majority of these guys are connected.




Val is right about the guys who only vote for a couple of people and no more. When I worked in Flint, two of the writers had ballots. One was very thoughtful and had a whole set of criteria he worked through for every guy on the ballot. I didn't always agree with him -- he always insisted on Ron Guidry -- but I respected the amount of work that he put in to it. That, and he always let me photo copy the blank ballot, which looked even more amateurish than you can imagine. I was always like, "This is it? Seriously?"

The other writer was one of those "Someone has to feel like a Hall of Famer" guys, and only picked two or three. Most of them Tigers....


But a writer not voting for ten guys isn't the same as saying he did so because he put some kind of artificial (sub-10) numerical limit on his ballot.

Ceetar
Nov 28 2012 04:49 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'm both tickled and disturbed that I'm getting old enough to actually look at candidates and remember most/many of their careers and actually feel somewhat qualified to actually decide if I think they're worthy.

Mets – Willets Point
Nov 28 2012 05:36 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 28 2012 09:30 PM

Frayed Knot wrote:
Jay Jaffe on SI:

"It is also the one most fraught with controversy, as the top newcomers — Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa and Mike Piazza — have connections to performance-enhancing drugs to one degree or another."

Has Piazza EVER been connected to PEDs, other than the writer and the back acne stuff? He later said that Piazza admitted to using Andro. I don't recall this. Do you guys?


Via rumors, yeah. But that's how the majority of these guys are connected.



Bonds and Clemens had legal action taken against them, and Sosa tested positive in 2003, that's more than rumors.

metsmarathon
Nov 28 2012 06:41 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

pretty sure piazza admitted to trying andro or something in either college or the minors and said he didn't like it or it didn't help and he stopped.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 28 2012 07:13 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
I'm both tickled and disturbed that I'm getting old enough to actually look at candidates and remember most/many of their careers and actually feel somewhat qualified to actually decide if I think they're worthy.


I'm on the other end of that. Some of these guys played most of their careers after I had stopped paying close attention.

Nymr83
Nov 28 2012 07:40 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsmarathon wrote:
pretty sure piazza admitted to trying andro or something in either college or the minors and said he didn't like it or it didn't help and he stopped.


Wasn't Andro, at that time, a legal product available over-the-counter in the U.S. And not banned by baseball?

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 29 2012 08:55 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread




November 28, 2012
The Doomsday Ballot
Posted by Ian Crouch

History is messy; so is baseball. The Hall of Fame is full of players who spiked each other with their cleats or slicked up the ball or otherwise broke the rules. It is home to bigots and liars and drunks. And soon it may welcome, knowingly, a group of players whose successes may have been due, in part, to steroids.

Five years have elapsed since Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Sammy Sosa retired from baseball. That means they are all eligible for election into the Hall on the 2013 ballot, which was released on Wednesday afternoon. The voting, results of which will be released on January 9th, thus is something of a nightmare scenario for a sport that has spent the past decade refusing to credibly confront the full implications of what is now known as the steroid era. The way the balloting unfolds over the next month and a half won’t just influence the way history views the past twenty years of baseball; it could end up calling into question the role and value of the Hall of Fame itself.

In any other scenario, Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa would, deservedly, be all but guaranteed election to the Hall on this first ballot: Bonds is a seven-time M.V.P. and the majors’ all-time leader in home runs and walks; Clemens won three hundred and fifty-four games and seven Cy Young awards across three decades; and Sammy Sosa hit six hundred and nine home runs. Bonds and Clemens are perhaps the best left-handed hitter and right-handed pitcher, respectively, of all time. But there’s the other side of the story to consider, too: during his perjury trial, Bonds admitted to using steroids; Clemens’ DNA was found along with traces of steroids and human-growth hormone among drug paraphernalia kept by his trainer, Brian McNamee (Clemens has denied taking steroids and disputes this evidence); and Sosa reportedly tested positive for steroids in 2003 (though he too has repeatedly denied taking illegal performance-enhancers).

For the past few years, the Hall of Fame has rather clumsily been trying to sort out what to do about the legacy of performance-enhancing drugs. The disgraced home-run hero Mark McGwire, who has been eligible since 2007, has never gotten more than twenty-four per cent of the vote in ballots cast—seventy-five per cent is the threshold for entry—and last year he received his lowest vote total yet. His candidacy appears doomed. Rafael Palmeiro, who had more than three thousand career hits but tested positive for steroids in 2005, got just over twelve per cent of the Hall of Fame vote last year, his second on the ballot. Absent the connection to steroids, both players would have been locks for induction at Cooperstown, yet a large majority of the more than five hundred voters from the Baseball Writers’ Association of America—the journalists who play gatekeepers for the Hall—have decided that confirmed users have no business being enshrined among the game’s greats.

That decision may seem sensible and fair, but nothing about baseball’s steroid era is so simple. The Major Leagues didn’t even begin testing players for steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs until 2002, and it wasn’t until 2005 that a strict and coherent punishment plan was put into effect. This despite years of rumblings about P.E.D. use dating back to the nineteen-eighties and nineties, and nearly daily visual evidence that something was going on: McGwire’s arms, Bonds’s expanding head, the once-enduring records that were suddenly being smashed every season. We all looked the other way when McGwire, grown to Paul Bunyan in the flesh and keeping androstenedione on full display in his locker, whapped seventy home runs in 1998. Baseball writers, a group with members now wagging their fingers in disgust, penned paeans to the great slugger. Revisionists may point to Cal Ripken as the man who won baseball fans back after the strike season of 1994, but it was McGwire and Sosa who made baseball appointment viewing across the country. Both men violated a public trust, but the public was more than happy to meet them halfway. Now, with their uniforms hung up and their muscles melted away, we’d rather not think about them anymore.

Further confusing the issue is that fact that neither McGwire nor Palmeiro—nor any other confirmed steroid user, for that matter—has been given an official post-retirement punishment or sanction. Pete Rose lives in exile, while McGwire was just hired as the hitting coach for the Los Angeles Dodgers and Bonds was welcomed back to San Francisco during the World Series in 2010 as a kind of beloved rascal. The current guidelines for voters, as ordered by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America, include “integrity, sportsmanship, character” among the categories by which to judge a player. Yet that phrasing is patently vague—useful when a writer wants to come down hard on a steroid user, but markedly fishy when applied to some of the more ethically specious past inductees. Voters have no consistent way to judge confirmed steroid-users, since Major League Baseball doesn’t quite know what to do with these guys either—in other words, if these players aren’t banned from baseball, why is it obvious that they should be banned from Cooperstown?

Things become even less clear when one considers a group of players who have never admitted to taking drugs and have not tested positive for anything, but who—because of their changing appearances, or just rumor and innuendo—have the taint of steroids attached to their name. Former Astros great Jeff Bagwell went from skinny-strong to gargantuan during his career. That turned heads and set people muttering, and despite a strong Hall of Fame case he has yet to get above fifty-six per cent of the vote. Joining him on the ballot this year is Mike Piazza, one of the best-hitting catchers ever, who has been followed by whispers of steroids as well. We don’t know if Bagwell or Piazza took steroids; they both say they didn’t. Few voters, it would seem, know for sure, either, and yet we are certain to see both players, and more after them, hurt by this lingering cloud.

Jose Canseco, equal parts clown and whistleblower, was called a fool when he said that eighty per cent of baseball players took steroids. But Canseco has been right before, so let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that the true figure was anywhere close to his number. Were hitters cheating more than pitchers? How do you determine if players were using designer drugs that didn’t change how they looked? And, finally, who should be banned and who should be considered clean—what tools can baseball journalists use to label one player a cheater and another a saint? There are no good answers to these questions, and that’s Major League Baseball’s fault: when it ignored the steroid problem, it left an entire generation of players in historical limbo. If it wants to help the Hall of Fame maintain its relevance as shrine to the game’s great and a museum to its past, it should now offer voters official guidance. With so much confusion, the most equitable solution, no matter how unpalatable to the great moralists in the ranks of baseball reporters, is for the voters to do what they’ve always done and grant entry to even the tainted among the era’s great players, and for the Hall to use this as an opportunity to tell the story of the decades when the game was captivating and wonderful and blackened by scandal all at the same time.

While they’re at it, it’s time for them to acknowledge another unpleasant part of baseball’s past—and the way it was overcome. The death of the famed baseball labor leader Marvin Miller reminds us that the Hall is also full of players who were denied a fair paycheck and the right to get a better deal from a team other than the one that owned them. In a Postscript about Miller, Malcolm Gladwell noted that the man who finally got the game’s on-field talent their due share of the wealth was never elected to its Hall of Fame. With his death, there is a growing chorus calling for that error to be corrected, for Miller to be voted in on the ballot for the class of 2014. Miller, of course, won’t be there to give the speech that he should have had the opportunity to deliver years ago, but at least one part of history will be set right.

If, in a hundred years, mothers and fathers are still taking their sons and daughters to Cooperstown, they should visit the plaques to Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron. But they should also hear the stories of Gaylord Perry’s spitballs, Ty Cobb’s sharpened spikes, and the decades in which the game excluded players of color. They should read phrases like “the reserve clause,” “antitrust exemption,” “free agency,” “strike,” and “BALCO.” And they should ask questions about how Roger Clemens, his legs like a bull’s, was still able to throw a blistering fastball well into his forties, and about Barry Bonds’s lightning-quick jerk of a swing, and all those baseballs that flew into McCovey Cove in San Francisco. Then they should get to read about what many players of this era did to themselves to be able to toss and bat those balls so well.



Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/s ... z2DcvsokLD

____________________________________________




On Baseball
Hall of Fame Voters Confront the Steroid Era and Its Questions
By TYLER KEPNER
Published: November 27, 2012

excerpt:

Those three words — integrity, sportsmanship, character — are critical to some voters.

“In each of those areas, players who used steroids fail the test — period,” Scott Miller, of CBSSports.com, said in an e-mail. “I know it isn’t the Hall of Choirboys. I know the stories about Ty Cobb and others who at times were miscreants. But I also know that the Steroid Era was one of the most shameful chapters in the game’s history. It made a mockery out of the record book. It pushed retired legends into the shadows when they should have remained in the spotlight, and it put the spotlight on others who never should have been there.”

Miller continued: “To me, just because the commissioner, the owners and the players’ union abdicated their responsibility to the game for so long by looking the other way only increases the obligation for somebody, somewhere, to stand up for what’s right. And if I can do that even from my small corner of the voting world, then I’m grateful to have that chance.”

Miller’s colleague, Danny Knobler, said he initially voted for McGwire, but felt bad about it and reconsidered. Knobler now has a zero-tolerance policy.

“I decided that for now, I will not vote for anyone where there is a reasonable belief that he could have used,” Knobler wrote in an e-mail. “I know some people dissect a career and try to determine if a player would have been a Hall of Famer without help. While I respect that view, my feeling is that if I’m voting against you, it’s because I believe there’s a reasonable likelihood that you cheated the game. If that’s the case, I don’t want to vote you into the Hall of Fame.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/28/sport ... oters.html

Vic Sage
Nov 29 2012 09:00 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 02 2012 09:31 PM

Wasn't Andro, at that time, a legal product available over-the-counter in the U.S. And not banned by baseball?


i believe that's correct.

My threshold is, unless you're a worse human being than ty cobb, you are not disqualified for HOF consideration.
put them all in and let god sort them out, says I.

some of baseball's story is grand and some sordid, but its all part of the story. This Orwellian instinct among baseball writers to whitewash the history of the game is grotesque, especially considering they chose to ignore it while it was happening.

good column about the hypocrisy of sports writers on this issue:
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2012/11/29/ ... ?ref=yahoo

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 09:03 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Yeah, but there's being a bad human (and Cobb isn't the game's, or the Hall of Fame's, worst) and there's cheating at the game (which, I think the record shows, Cobb did too, if not at the same level as some others).

I don't think it reflects poorly on a writer to make that distinction. Just make it well.

Ceetar
Nov 29 2012 09:08 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Yeah, but there's being a bad human (and Cobb isn't the game's, or the Hall of Fame's, worst) and there's cheating at the game (which, I think the record shows, Cobb did too, if not at the same level as some others).

I don't think it reflects poorly on a writer to make that distinction. Just make it well.


and maybe, just maybe, consider using actual evidence?

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 09:14 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Let's not get overbroad, here. Jeff Bagwell didn't get to 500 homers or 3000 (or even 2500) hits. He's a great candidate in my mind and a better candidate than some who did reach those milestones.

He got 56% of the vote last year, and most that reach 50% reach 75% so the idea that he's being blackballed without evidence is a little overstated. It sometimes takes folks a while to sort a legacy out of context, or to understand that 1400 walks is a lot.

Mets – Willets Point
Nov 29 2012 09:18 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'd vote for:
Bonds
Clemens (reluctantly)
Piazza
Bagwell
Schilling
Walker
Trammell
Raines
Palmeiro
McGwire
Biggio

Ceetar
Nov 29 2012 09:18 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Let's not get overbroad, here. Jeff Bagwell didn't get to 500 homers or 3000 (or even 2500) hits. He's a great candidate in my mind and a better candidate than some who did reach those milestones. He got 56% of the vote last year, and most that reach 50% reach 75% so the idea that he's being blackballed is a little overstated. It sometimes takes folks a while to sort a legacy out of context.


time? they have 5 years. 6 now. voters have indeed come out and said it's basically their own personal suspicions that he took something that is why they're keeping him out. He looks like a Hall of Famer to me and I've ready plenty of convincing cases for him and none against him (he didn't get 500 homers or 2500 hits isn't one). Yeah, he'll eventually get in, but that doesn't mean he's not being snubbed.

metsmarathon
Nov 29 2012 09:52 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Nymr83 wrote:
metsmarathon wrote:
pretty sure piazza admitted to trying andro or something in either college or the minors and said he didn't like it or it didn't help and he stopped.


Wasn't Andro, at that time, a legal product available over-the-counter in the U.S. And not banned by baseball?


yes. and it was legal in america and in baseball in 1998, too.

now, that legality was through a loophole/oversight built into the law, but it was still legal and allowed and pervasive.

in 1997 it was banned by hte olympics, and in 2004 its sale in the us was banned, and it was officially made a controlled substance, making it "illegal".

now, it's certainly fair to argue that it's use prior to 1997 and certainly 2004 was at best gray in a world of black and white, but to claim that anyone who so much as touched the stuff prior to that time (and even after) is a dirty rotten awful cheater who should never ever never be allowed enshrinement into the hall.

in baseball today, many first base coaches carry stopwatches to assist baserunners in timing hte pitchers' delivery. carlos beltran for one avails himself of this knowledge to great success. it could well be argued that this is a gray area beyond the pure pastoral beginnings of the sport, and it's certainly envisionable that a future rule change may make such an activity illegal. since carlos beltran were using this crack in the rule of the game for his statistical benefit, would that make him a retroactive cheater who should be prohibited from enshrinement or due recognition of his accomplishments?

what of those players who gain an advantage by smearing the back line of hte batters box? are they not violating a rule and exisitng in the gray inbetween? should this be held against tehm as well?

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 09:56 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
time? they have 5 years. 6 now. voters have indeed come out and said it's basically their own personal suspicions that he took something that is why they're keeping him out. He looks like a Hall of Famer to me and I've ready plenty of convincing cases for him and none against him (he didn't get 500 homers or 2500 hits isn't one). Yeah, he'll eventually get in, but that doesn't mean he's not being snubbed.

Yeah, time. Cream rises to the top and oil separates itself from water at different rates depending on volume and concentration. It's a tough job drawing distinctions, made tougher by the huge amount of superlative performances in the era.

If you want to take issue with a particular voter and his explicit explanation for his non-vote, please cite it and do so. But that person wouldn't speak for all the others who elected not to vote for him, and certainly not for the majority who did.

Ceetar
Nov 29 2012 10:16 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:


If you want to take issue with a particular voter and his explicit explanation for his non-vote, please cite it and do so. But that person wouldn't speak for all the others who elected not to vote for him, and certainly not for the majority who did.


no? rumors spread like wildfire and these guys respect each other. When one person writes he thinks Bagwell did something, some others might waver and think to themselves "hmm, makes sense at least.." It's hardly just one or two guys who have engaged in this holier than thou judgement on baseball players and PEDs. There are columns and columns written up already about specific voters. Just google "I'm not voting for Bagwell" if you haven't already gotten the gist of it.

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 10:26 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
no?

No.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 29 2012 11:10 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I get your point, but there ARE more than a few. I've read more "he should wait because of the accusations" or "no cheaters" justifications on him than "he wasn't THAT good a player" ones.

See here, here and here (that last being a vote FOR Bagwell THIS year by admitting what he did LAST year), for starters.

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 11:28 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'm sure there are several.

My point, and I make clear that I support Bagwell's candidacy, only is that sorting out folks and separating their performance from the realities of the era is hard, and I think I understand the restraint.

My main complaint with the no voters is that they might withhold the vote in one year based on suspicions and not spend at least a little time in the next year, as reporters, pursuing those suspicions.

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 01:05 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

By the way, big fat vote for Schilling.

Ceetar
Nov 29 2012 01:28 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
By the way, big fat vote for Schilling.


I don't know if it's big and fat, but yeah. Haven't dug into numbers as much with him. his ERA seems a little high, but it does look like that's inflated a little around the beginning/end of his career. Quite a few impressive years and dominating years. 300 Ks twice. Damn good postseason numbers.

Damn, 15 complete games, 300 Ks, led the lead in innings pitched with 268.2 and not even a singular Cy Young vote?


he's a damn Phillie though.

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 01:32 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

He was a Phillie before they were the damn Phillies, and that robbed him of a more than a few numbers in the win column, I think.

Tyler Kepner just posted this.

Here's the complete list of pitchers in MLB history with 3,000+ strikeouts and fewer than 750 walks: Curt Schilling.

Ceetar
Nov 29 2012 01:36 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
He was a Phillie before they were the damn Phillies, and that robbed him of a more than a few numbers in the win column, I think.

Tyler Kepner just posted this.

Here's the complete list of pitchers in MLB history with 3,000+ strikeouts and fewer than 750 walks: Curt Schilling.


I don't hate him because he was a Philly, just upset they'd get another hat is all. That was actually Ruben Amaro Jr's last year in the majors. Yeah, I imagine wins and ERA is what hurt him, pre-moneyball revolution or whatever. Hoffman probably shouldn't have gotten that many votes as a reliever either, and then there were the Randy Johnson votes despite the league switch.

Man, '98 was a crazy year wasn't it? pitching wise too.

Mets – Willets Point
Nov 29 2012 01:38 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I was voting for Schilling before it was cool.

Swan Swan H
Nov 29 2012 01:42 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Here's the complete list of pitchers in MLB history with 3,150+ strikeouts and fewer than 761 walks: Pedro Martinez.

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 01:46 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Cool things about Curt Schilling:

[list=1:1uxtf7s3][*:1uxtf7s3]3,000+ strikeouts and fewer than 750 walks[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]Roger Clemens-like, without being Clemens.[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]Utterly disowned Roger Clemens. (I hope he hasn't gone back on that.)[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]300 strikeouts twice.[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]His middle name is "Montague."[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]Raised millions for the fight against ALS.[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]Looked like a fat little short-order cook next to Randy Johnson on all those magazine covers they shared back in 2001.[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]Was a big part of the playoff win that utterly exploded the feeling of entitlement an entire generation of Yankee fans was comfortable with.[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]A huge part, actually. Hurt them badly twice, in fact.[/*:m:1uxtf7s3]
[*:1uxtf7s3]11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in the post-season, with 120 strikeouts in 133.1 innings, against only 25 walks. With a post-season record like that, I'd vote Steve Trachsel into the Hall of Fame.[/*:m:1uxtf7s3][/list:o:1uxtf7s3]

Ceetar
Nov 29 2012 01:52 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Trachsel was 0-1 with a 14.54 ERA across two starts in the postseason.

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 02:03 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Yes, I'm imagining an alternative scenario, where Curt Schilling's post-season record becomes adhered to Steve Trachsel's pedestrian regular season record. I'd vote for that guy.

MFS62
Nov 29 2012 02:04 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Mets – Willets Point wrote:
I was voting for Schilling before it was cool.

Bloody-well.

Later

metsmarathon
Nov 29 2012 02:08 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

schilling is sneaky good. you don't necessarily think of him as a hall of famer right off hte bat, but that's because, though he was around for a while to start his career, he took a bit to get off hte ground, even serving as a closer for a bit there.

the dude got hisself included in some suspect trades there too. in fact, i don't think there's a single schilling trade where the team giving him up made out even close to okay in it.

my ballot goes as follows, with some added support from a thing i'll call JAWS+, or hte ratio between a given player's jaws score (average of his career war and his war7, or top 7 war years) and the average jaws score for the hall of famers at that player's primary position

226 bonds
171 clemens (boo)
120 bagwell
118 piazza
106 raines
106 trammell
106 schlling
102 walker
100 palmiero
99 edgar martinez

kenn lofton sits at a tantalizing 98 (he was a lot better than most people ever realized, wasn't he?), and since i've run out of slots in my imaginary ballot, i don't have to wrestle with that problem.

over on the veteran's ballot, i have:

105 dahlen

94 ferrell had a very impressive peak (27th best among pitchers; only four other pitchers have a higher war7 and are not in the hall) and 94 mullane, about whom the following is written on baseballlibrary.com: "Mullane was a multi-talented marvel, baseball's first ambidextrous pitcher. He played without a glove, facing the batter with both hands on the ball before throwing it with either one." oh, he also played 7 other positions, all but catcher, and was a very early proponent of player rights.

both are deserving, but i give the edge to mullane. how could you keep a guy out who would throw the ball with either hand, and wouldl ikely have racked up 300 wins had he not been banned for a year for bucking the reserve clause?

Edgy MD
Nov 29 2012 02:14 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Lofton had a great first half of his career. He's got the same dimmed bulb effect that Raines and Griffey had --- our last eight years or so of memories were of a guy that was utterly human.

Got to count post-season numbers into there somehow, though, right?

metsmarathon
Nov 29 2012 02:15 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

probably, but accounting for postseason numbers isn't stupid-easy, and i'm all about stupid.

Mets – Willets Point
Nov 29 2012 02:40 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Cool things about Curt Schilling:

[list=1][*]3,000+ strikeouts and fewer than 750 walks[/*:m]
[*]Roger Clemens-like, without being Clemens.[/*:m]
[*]Utterly disowned Roger Clemens. (I hope he hasn't gone back on that.)[/*:m]
[*]300 strikeouts twice.[/*:m]
[*]His middle name is "Montague."[/*:m]
[*]Raised millions for the fight against ALS.[/*:m]
[*]Looked like a fat little short-order cook next to Randy Johnson on all those magazine covers they shared back in 2001.[/*:m]
[*]Was a big part of the playoff win that utterly exploded the feeling of entitlement an entire generation of Yankee fans was comfortable with.[/*:m]
[*]A huge part, actually. Hurt them badly twice, in fact.[/*:m]
[*]11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in the post-season, with 120 strikeouts in 133.1 innings, against only 25 walks. With a post-season record like that, I'd vote Steve Trachsel into the Hall of Fame.[/*:m][/list:o]



All this and he's the man who said "When you use words like 'mystique' and 'aura,' those are names of night club dancers. Those are not things we concern ourselves with on a ballfield," at the height of the Yankees feeling of entitlement and infallibility.

And don't forget (already enshrined in the Hall):

Valadius
Nov 29 2012 10:12 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Schilling had some INSANE BB/9 numbers, especially while he was tag-teaming with Randy Johnson in Arizona.

metsguyinmichigan
Nov 30 2012 04:44 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Why would you think Schilling would go in as a Phillie? Championships with Arizona and Boston. I bet the Hall would love to get a Diamondback cap in there to have more teams represented.

Ceetar
Nov 30 2012 05:30 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Why would you think Schilling would go in as a Phillie? Championships with Arizona and Boston. I bet the Hall would love to get a Diamondback cap in there to have more teams represented.


I think the overwhelming time would trump it.

Nymr83
Nov 30 2012 01:32 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Schilling should go in with a crossed-out yankee hat! I hope voters have gotten smarter about the (non) value of W's and he doesn't wait as long as Blyleven did.

Vic Sage
Nov 30 2012 02:44 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy convinced me about Schilling last year, but i'd forgotten. I'll revise my ballot accordingly.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 30 2012 03:37 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Same. Forgot about that.

Although:

Edgy MD wrote:
2) Roger Clemens-like, without being Clemens.


One could credibly argue that, drugs aside, he's almost more Clemens than Clemens.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 30 2012 04:31 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I overlooked Schilling too but he deserves a vote.

Valadius
Dec 03 2012 01:34 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Vets' Committee has voted in MFYs owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day, and 19th-century barehanded catcher Deacon White.

Edgy MD
Dec 03 2012 01:42 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Deacon White looks like a guy who made a killing in dry goods.

MFS62
Dec 03 2012 09:25 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Valadius wrote:
Vets' Committee has voted in MFYs owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day, and 19th-century barehanded catcher Deacon White.

They were selected by the "pre-integration" part of the veteran's committee.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ruppert-od ... --mlb.html

Never knew there was such a thing. What year was that group formed?

Later

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2012 07:23 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Hall of famer Deacon White wants to know if you want more starch for your shirt.

Mets – Willets Point
Dec 04 2012 07:25 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Hall of famer Deacon White wants to know if you want more starch for your shirt.



Look at this fucking hipster.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 04 2012 07:26 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'm guessing that Deacon White is dead at the present time?

metsmarathon
Dec 04 2012 07:28 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

he looks like a fun guy to be around.

Mets – Willets Point
Dec 04 2012 07:30 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

MFS62 wrote:
[They were selected by the "pre-integration" part of the veteran's committee.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ruppert-od ... --mlb.html


I guess they need to make sure there's enough white guys in the HOF.

Frayed Knot
Dec 04 2012 07:31 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I'm guessing that Deacon White is dead at the present time?


Looks like he was dead at the time those pictures were taken.

Any relation to Deacon Blues?

[youtube]2A0wGO3c2T8[/youtube]

seawolf17
Dec 04 2012 07:53 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Someone tell him that Movember is over.

SteveJRogers
Dec 04 2012 08:02 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

MFS62 wrote:
Vets' Committee has voted in MFYs owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day, and 19th-century barehanded catcher Deacon White.

They were selected by the "pre-integration" part of the veteran's committee.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ruppert-od ... --mlb.html

Never knew there was such a thing. What year was that group formed?

Later


The Veterans Commitee has been tasked with different groupings of canididates to vote for each winter now. This one, the Modern Era was last year, and there is one for modern non-playing personel as well.

I guess its a nicer way of saying "19th Century" or something.

Vic Sage
Dec 04 2012 09:41 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread


I guess its a nicer way of saying "19th Century" or something


Except that the "pre-integration" era went halfway through the 20th century too. And what kind of Orwellian bullshit word is that anyway? It's not the "pre-integration" era; it's the era of "segregation". Stop putting smiley faces on our ugly past.

MFS62
Dec 04 2012 09:53 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Vic Sage wrote:

I guess its a nicer way of saying "19th Century" or something


Except that the "pre-integration" era went halfway through the 20th century too. And what kind of Orwellian bullshit word is that anyway? It's not the "pre-integration" era; it's the era of "segregation". Stop putting smiley faces on our ugly past.

Bingo.
Also-
While Rupert sold the Yankees long before baseball was (re)integrated, they were the next to last team to integrate. His selection by that sub-committee reminded me of that fact.

Later

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2012 10:16 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

That's a silly angle to play if it were true, and it's not.

Edgy MD
Dec 18 2012 09:20 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Maybe not the argument you want to hear, or perhaps yield to, but a heck of a thrust coming from Dale Murphy's family.

http://deadspin.com/5969376/?utm_campai ... socialflow

Edgy MD
Dec 19 2012 12:22 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Davidoff publishes his ballot and gives Mike Piazza a cold clinical no.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/baseballi ... z2FWjS3xyI

Can't argue too much with him, as he came armed with data. I'll just say that our searches for a final bottom-line number on a player's value hasn't necessarily given us a number that adequately accounts for the greater value in offense when it comes from a catcher. These guys have a harder time maintaining peak productivity because they play a position that allows other guys to be productive. That's something.

Ceetar
Dec 19 2012 12:25 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Davidoff publishes his ballot and gives Mike Piazza a cold clinical no.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/baseballi ... z2FWjS3xyI

Can't argue too much with him, as he came armed with data. I'll just say that our searches for a final bottom-line number on a player's value hasn't necessarily given us a number that adequately accounts for the greater value in offense when it comes from a catcher. These guys have a harder time maintaining peak productivity because they play a position that allows other guys to be productive. That's something.


yeah, Piazza was better than some of those guys, just not for as long, but catcher HAS to play into it. At least prorate his WAR to the average playing time of the other guys. Of course, part of the problem is they should've put guys like Bagwell and Martinez in last year, so there aren't so many good candidates this year.

Swan Swan H
Dec 19 2012 12:31 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

If I was talking baseball at a Christmas party in 1987 and someone told me that Dale Murphy wouldn't be a Hall of Famer by 2012 - and only would get 20% of the vote once in 15 years - I'd have thought they had too much egg nog.

Edgy MD
Dec 19 2012 12:37 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Davidoff gets crossed off my ballot for using the phrase "redonkulously good."

metirish
Dec 19 2012 12:41 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

It's funny to see doubt about Piazza in the HOF. In his pomp he was regularly called such things as "a no doubter for the HOF", "a certain HOF player", "future HOFer Mike Piazza". Only doubt was the hat.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 19 2012 12:43 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Davidoff publishes his ballot and gives Mike Piazza a cold clinical no.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/baseballi ... z2FWjS3xyI

Can't argue too much with him, as he came armed with data. I'll just say that our searches for a final bottom-line number on a player's value hasn't necessarily given us a number that adequately accounts for the greater value in offense when it comes from a catcher. These guys have a harder time maintaining peak productivity because they play a position that allows other guys to be productive. That's something.


Yeah, that's a persuasive argument from Davidoff, and he gets extra points for confounding those who earlier this week had him painted as a Mets Front Office puppet for his Dickey-is-a-dick column (which imo struck many fans way too hard). I could and would probably slide in Mike P over Lofton or Martinez, but I like that they're getting votes and his reasoning is sound on the guys who deserve a vote but just can't earn one in this class. Seemed to me as though writers too often leave guys off a ballot so as to satisfy their own heirarchies, not because there are too many candidates.

Swan Swan H
Dec 19 2012 12:55 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

He prominently mentions Bagwell's 149 OPS+ and Martinez' 147 OPS+, but leaves out Piazza's 143 OPS+ achieved at a much harder position, as it would deflate his argument significantly.

metirish
Dec 19 2012 12:57 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Yes, kudos to Davidoff, I wonder how many of his fellow voters know what Jeffe's JAWS is, I have not a clue.

metsmarathon
Dec 19 2012 12:59 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

so... davidoff won't be voting for mariano, then, ever, right? because even eckersley's WAR & JAWS scores pale in comparison to nearly every other pitcher in the hall. and they're better than ol' 'lectric pool.

also, davidoff would suggest that yogi berra drags down the quality of the hall? his WAR and JAWS scores are lower than piazza's.

i applaud hte statistical approach, really i do. but it leaves out the context of the performance. using bbref's stats, piazza was hte 5th best catcher in history. comparing his JAWS score to the average catcher in the hall, he's 18% better. comparing his WAR total to the average catcher, he's 13% better.

kenny lofton is a below average hall of fame centerfielder (if only just). mike piazza is an above average hall of fame catcher. position matters.

Edgy MD
Dec 19 2012 01:11 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
It's funny to see doubt about Piazza in the HOF. In his pomp he was regularly called such things as "a no doubter for the HOF", "a certain HOF player", "future HOFer Mike Piazza". Only doubt was the hat.

Part of what's going on is that the ballot is getting crowded --- in part, I guess, because of (as Valadius will tell you) increasing stinginess, but even moreso because writers are having so much trouble dealing with the 80s, an era which played really neutral and close to the mean, and the 90s, an era with numbers (though we know not which ones) distorted by PED use. The conservative voter shrinks from the ambiguities these eras brought.

Years later, backlogged candidacies from those eras leave a cold clinical guy like Davidoff spoiled for choice.

He should've chosen Piazza over Lofton, but who knows? --- maybe by not giving Piazza his vote he's keeping worthy candidacies like Lofton's and Trammel's alive.

metsmarathon
Dec 19 2012 08:41 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

that'd be a reasonable and entirely unfortunate position i could stand by, though if that's the case, perhaps he should withhold a vote from bonds or clemens instead. or, y'know, just say so.

Fman99
Dec 20 2012 10:16 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Lofton over Piazza? Fuck him. He can die in a grease fire.

metsguyinmichigan
Dec 20 2012 07:33 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Bonds and Clemens get in, and Sosa is kept out for corking his bat?

His implication that Aaron and Mays were just as guilty for using amphetamines is nuts. Amphetamines is not comparable to human growth hormones and steroids. And, yes, Ruth played before integration, which isn't exactly his fault. But is he trying to imply that Ruth wouldn't have done as well had there been black players in the league?

That whole column is horrible. Piazza is vastly overqualified for the Hall.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 20 2012 08:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The argument with Ruth is he likely wouldn't have dominated to the extent that he did had the talent pool not been so artificially-limited (not just without black players, but with barely any Hispanic/foreign-born players); there's likely something there, but it obviously can never be proven.

Also, in terms of peak and sustained performance over a lengthy career, Bonds and (ugh) Clemens are at least a class above guys like Sosa and McGwire (much less Palmeiro).

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Amphetamines is not comparable to human growth hormones and steroids.


True-- one is a proven hand-eye-coordination booster, and the other is HGH/steroids.

Frayed Knot
Dec 20 2012 09:09 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
His implication that Aaron and Mays were just as guilty for using amphetamines is nuts. Amphetamines is not comparable to human growth hormones and steroids. And, yes, Ruth played before integration, which isn't exactly his fault. But is he trying to imply that Ruth wouldn't have done as well had there been black players in the league?


I'm seeing his point as saying that all players are products of their era and that it's time to stop pretending that only those from the 1990s were somehow devoid of sporting morals when it's known that at least some of those who went before were willing to take whatever was available in their time to if it was thought to improve performance. Former pitcher Tom House has talked about experimenting with all kinds of shit - primitive horse steroids and the like - with a few guys he played with during his career. Among others he played with was Aaron ... was even the guy who caught his 715th HR ... Aaron had some great seasons in his late 30s and early 40s right around this same time ... hmmmmm.

Point being, it's impossible to know everything about what went on, even among those about whom with know something, and it's at least as tough to know what others not yet (and maybe never) named were doing as well, and that as long as baseball was doing nothing about it, players & the league both, the punishment of those thus far named, at least within the pre-testing era, seems both selective and uneven. I think Davidoff has simply come around to the idea that it's impossible to separate, or in most cases even define, that era's players in simple black and white / user-vs-non categories and I believe that's the place many of his colleagues are going to eventually reach as well. I don't begrudge those who are taking their time to sort it out, but I think more are going to come around to a similar view to Davidoff's eventually.

That doesn't mean there aren't things to disagree with or argue about in his list, but I don't think his steroids angle is wrong.

Valadius
Dec 21 2012 03:44 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Dale Murphy did an AMA today on Reddit.

[url]http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/158o2d/i_am_2time_nl_mvp_dale_murphy_former_mlb_player/

Edgy MD
Dec 21 2012 05:00 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

That contrast between meeting Murphy as a kid and meeting Henderson is pretty funny.

The Second Spitter
Dec 27 2012 02:56 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The permutation of Clemens in, Piazza & Bonds out, will make me seriously question my desire to follow this league.

Edgy MD
Dec 27 2012 08:54 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Personally, I think the notion that "He shook the rap in court, therefore he's absolved historically," is a cop out.

If you want to move on from steroids, I get it. That's fine. But don't substitute the judgment of a specific jury to a very specific charge with a very specific burden of proof for your own judgment, or the judgment of history.

Edgy MD
Jan 02 2013 08:30 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Rob Castellano does a great job piecing apart Davidoff's Folly.

metsmarathon
Jan 02 2013 09:29 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

its nice to see someone adopting my JAWS+ metric.

Edgy MD
Jan 02 2013 09:52 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Gar the batting stance guy posted this little stat set.

11-19 (.579) 3-2Bs, 2-HRs, 6-RBI.

That's Edgar Martinez.

Against Mariano Rivera.

bmfc1
Jan 02 2013 11:28 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Spreadsheet of how the voting is going:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... wqIJ#gid=6

Edgy MD
Jan 02 2013 11:44 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'm confused. That spreadsheet seems to suggest they have reasonably accurate versions of 56 ballots. In order to be elected, a guy needs to appear on 75% of ballots, which in that sample would be 42 votes.

According to that sheet, this is a threshold that none of the candidates reach, with Tim Raines leading at 41. Are the early returns really leading to a projection of no electees?

Ceetar
Jan 02 2013 11:48 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

A couple say they are partials.

Also I presume the idiots who do things like blank ballots or only vote for Dale Murphy probably get their ballots in earlier.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 02 2013 12:47 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy?

Edgy MD
Jan 02 2013 12:57 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

He's defensible until he gets to his ballot of Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Curt Schilling, Don Mattingly. Ouch.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 02 2013 01:00 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
He's defensible until he gets to his ballot of Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Curt Schilling, Don Mattingly. Ouch.


That's what I mean. Did Raines and Trammell use andro?

G-Fafif
Jan 02 2013 01:05 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

John Delcos listed as not voting for Piazza, but Delcos says he did.

Vic Sage
Jan 02 2013 01:43 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

like the other guy, this guy's argument is valid right up to the point where he starts naming his ballot... Fred McGriff, Jack Morris, Don Mattingly... at which point he loses all credibility.
I mean, how does a guy understand positional context, as he does with Piazza and his relative place among HOF catchers, then go on to vote for McGriff and Mattingly as HOF 1bmen and Morris as a HOF pitcher?

The Second Spitter
Jan 03 2013 12:50 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
The argument with Ruth is he likely wouldn't have dominated to the extent that he did had the talt
metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Amphetamines is not comparable to human growth hormones and steroids.


True-- one is a proven hand-eye-coordination booster, and the other is HGH/steroids.

This is a salient point. In Game of Shadows it is suggested that Bonds benefited more from the use of Modafinil, a drug with amphetamine-like properties (that was not even on the WADA radar at the time) above any other drug.

metsmarathon
Jan 03 2013 07:52 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

mcgriff... ok... i guess... if you just look at home runs. why, he's got as many as gehrig - he must be a hall of famer!

and morris, well, he won a lot of games and did that postseason thing. so that must be awfully nice.

and with mattingly, there was... um... well he had three really great years... and, um... i suppose if he never got hurt he might've... ah... didn't he play defense well? does that make up for any of it? ah... yeah... so... he was a yankee, so that's gotta count... right? ...right?

The Second Spitter
Jan 03 2013 07:58 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsmarathon wrote:
ah... yeah... so... he was a yankee, so that's gotta count... right? ...right?

Yanqui 4 Life! That counts extra.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 08:14 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Dwight Evans had damn near twice the career that Mattingly had. His Hall of Fame candidacy was met with little more than a shrug.

bmfc1
Jan 03 2013 08:27 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Another ballot tracker:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/new ... ting_gizmo

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 03 2013 08:30 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

What does Nate Silver have to say about this?

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 08:32 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Also projecting an empty class. Valadius' nightmare is coming to pass.

MFS62
Jan 03 2013 08:37 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'll vote for a person who spent most of his career as a DH (I'm callin' YOU out, Martinez) sometime after punter Ray Guy makes the Football HOF.

Later

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 08:43 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

You're calling him out as if he did anything wrong. He didn't.

metsmarathon
Jan 03 2013 08:43 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

so, no american league pitchers in the dh era either, then?

SteveJRogers
Jan 03 2013 08:49 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Also projecting an empty class. Valadius' nightmare is coming to pass.


What do they have against Craig Biggio I wonder?

With the exception of Palmerio, the turn of the century through late 1920s guys (Lajoie, Speaker) due to the early days of the the writers trying to figure out what they were doing, and Rose obviously, all of the 3,000 hit guys have been first ballot enshrinees.

Unless EVERYONE including those who don't "fit the anecdotal narrative" that played from 1995-2004 is being painted with same broad strokes?

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 08:54 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?

Ceetar
Jan 03 2013 08:58 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?


Being that at least one voter doesn't cover baseball anymore and retains the vote solely to not vote for Bonds/Clemens, I could see that.

SteveJRogers
Jan 03 2013 09:08 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Just making sure my statement is correct:

Rose, we know
Cobb, first class
Aaron, first ballot
Musial, first ballot
Speaker, second writers' class
Anson, 1939's Old Timers Committee
Wagner, first class
Yastrezmski, first ballot
Molitor, first ballot
Collins, third writers' class
Jeter, still active
Mays, first ballot
Murray, first ballot
Lajoie, second writers' ballot
Ripken, first ballot
Brett, first ballot
Waner, got in by the writers in 1952 on the 5th try on the normal ballot
Yount, first ballot
Gwynn, first ballot
Winfield, first ballot
Biggio, first year on the ballot
Henderson, first ballot
Carew, first ballot
Brock, first ballot
Palmerio, third year on the ballot
Boggs, first ballot
Kaline, first ballot
Clemente, special election after death

Okay, so really since "first ballots" started to mean something with 1962's Bob Feller and Jackie Robinson the statement holds, with the exception of Rose and Palmerio. But for the most part it is considered a mortal lock club,

SteveJRogers
Jan 03 2013 09:12 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?


You say that snarkily, but I respond, okay, then how did Paul Molitor get in on his first ballot? Did the writers get dumber in general knowledge in the nearly 10 years since Molitor first appeared on the ballot?

seawolf17
Jan 03 2013 09:14 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

That 3000-hit list is really interesting.

Also, "ballot" is a word that looks funny when you see it print too many times.

SteveJRogers
Jan 03 2013 09:28 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Also projecting an empty class. Valadius' nightmare is coming to pass.


Even more of a nightmare, all three Veterans Committee members, and the Frick Award winner (Toronto's Tom Cheek) are dead at the present time with only Spinx Award winner Paul Hagen (unless there is a Buck O'Neil Award awarded this year) as the only living person to give his own speech! I'm guessing it has been quite a long time, if ever, that none of the normal Hall nominees were alive to accept enshrinement.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 09:31 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

SteveJRogers wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?


You say that snarkily, but I respond, okay, then how did Paul Molitor get in on his first ballot? Did the writers get dumber in general knowledge in the nearly 10 years since Molitor first appeared on the ballot?

I don't really mean it snarkily. But yes, it's possible the writers got dumber since 2004, or more stubborn, or less grave about their responsiblity.

Molitor also played on a World Series winner at the end of his career, giving him a nice showcase, along with a nice career finish. Biggio was carried by his team mostly the last few years. By the time he got to the World Series, he was a shadow of his better days, he didn't perform well, and his team got swept. So I don't think Molitor is that analogous, profile-wise.

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 03 2013 10:34 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

As someone who thinks there are too many people in the Hall of Fame, I don't have a problem with a year in which nobody gets elected. I have a partisan interest in Piazza, so I hope it doesn't happen this year, but in general, the fewer the better.

There was a year not so long ago, I think, where the only inductees were from the Veterans Committee. Does anyone remember if that's so and if true, what year that was?

Oh, and since Harold Baines came very close to 3,000 hits, I'd have to say that that total should not make anyone automatic for the Hall. 3,000 hits and 500 homers are not what they once were.

seawolf17
Jan 03 2013 10:45 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

1996, if this list is right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_me ... ll_of_Fame

Jim Bunning, Bill Foster, Ned Hanlon, and Earl Weaver, all VC guys. No BBWAA guys.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 10:59 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Oh, and since Harold Baines came very close to 3,000 hits, I'd have to say that that total should not make anyone automatic for the Hall. 3,000 hits and 500 homers are not what they once were.

Yeah, but Craig Biggio did achieve 3,000 hits; plus 1,100 walks, 290 homers; and 400 steals (at a 77% success rate). He was hit by 285 pitches, leading the league five times and ultimately coming within two of turn-of-the-century Hughie Jennings' all-time leading number. In 12,504 plate appearances, he somehow grounded into only 150 double plays.

And while Harold Baines played left field or no place through his career, Biggio played catcher, second, and center.

Biggio is what you want in the Hall of Fame. It's almost like he's being doubly penalized for playing in the steroids era and not hitting enough homers.

Ashie62
Jan 03 2013 11:05 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Biggio is a class act with a very great resume..

I'm adding Piazza, Edgar Martinez, and Fred McGriff

Ceetar
Jan 03 2013 11:44 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
As someone who thinks there are too many people in the Hall of Fame, I don't have a problem with a year in which nobody gets elected.


Except there are _at least_ 4-5 no doubt about it Hall of Fame of the Hall of Fame guys on the ballot this year. You don't have to put someone in every year, but you sure do have to put in the guys that deserve it.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 11:50 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

murraychassholyshitmurraychass!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 03 2013 11:51 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'd love a smaller-- or tiered-- HoF too, if I had to start it from scratch.

But if you're going to have King Kongs and Ruffings and Perezes and lesser Waners in there, hell, it's already been decided by others what kind of Hall we're going to have. Might as well have all of the players we KNOW are great in there, too, right?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 03 2013 11:55 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
murraychassholyshitmurraychass!


I especially like how he hyphenates "new-fangled." That makes him a hall of famer in my book.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 12:00 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I don't know how anybody gets such a high bullshit-per-word ratio into one entire essay.

He threatens (but makes no commitments) to turn in his voting privileges. Somewhere at the Hall of Fame, somebody is saying, "Holy shit! Murray Chass still has voting privileges?!"

metsmarathon
Jan 03 2013 12:08 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

well, somebody told chass that biggio was a roider. i guess that settles it then.

Frayed Knot
Jan 03 2013 12:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Yeah, but Craig Biggio did achieve 3,000 hits; plus 1,100 walks, 290 homers; and 400 steals (at a 77% success rate). He was hit by 285 pitches, leading the league five times and ultimately coming within two of turn-of-the-century Hughie Jennings' all-time leading number. In 12,504 plate appearances, he somehow grounded into only 150 double plays.
]

And chalked up nearly 700 doubles in his career, behind only Speaker, Rose, Musial & Cobb
Think of him as George Brett minus 24 points of BA plus a little power (although not much, plus was in a tougher hitting environment) but with more speed and defensive versatility.

Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO.

SteveJRogers
Jan 03 2013 12:21 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Frayed Knot wrote:

Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO.


I heard Colin Cowherd of ESPN Radio fame declare that Biggio doesn't belong anywhere near a Hall of Fame, while he'd put Canseco in.

Reasoning, because of the FAME part! Canseco is much more FAMOUS than Biggio will ever be!

Frayed Knot
Jan 03 2013 12:28 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

SteveJRogers wrote:
Frayed Knot wrote:

Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO.


I heard Colin Cowherd of ESPN Radio fame declare that Biggio doesn't belong anywhere near a Hall of Fame, while he'd put Canseco in.

Reasoning, because of the FAME part! Canseco is much more FAMOUS than Biggio will ever be!


My only comment to this is that it's exactly what I'd expect from Cowherd and that comments like these are why, rather than hoping he (and many of his ESPN brethren) would talk more baseball, I'd prefer they talk less.

Ceetar
Jan 03 2013 12:45 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Frayed Knot wrote:
Frayed Knot wrote:

Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO.


I heard Colin Cowherd of ESPN Radio fame declare that Biggio doesn't belong anywhere near a Hall of Fame, while he'd put Canseco in.

Reasoning, because of the FAME part! Canseco is much more FAMOUS than Biggio will ever be!


My only comment to this is that it's exactly what I'd expect from Cowherd and that comments like these are why, rather than hoping he (and many of his ESPN brethren) would talk more baseball, I'd prefer they talk less.


It's an interesting debate for sure. Do we want baseball to be closer to a tightly knit group of smart fans, or broad-reaching national pastime that everyone pays attention to? I lean towards the latter, which is why I always gladly welcome the Yankee bandwagoners to Queens when the opportunity arises.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 03 2013 12:48 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
I don't know how anybody gets such a high bullshit-per-word ratio into one entire essay.

He threatens (but makes no commitments) to turn in his voting privileges. Somewhere at the Hall of Fame, somebody is saying, "Holy shit! Murray Chass still has voting privileges?!"


Funny thing-- the Times' writers, by paper policy, don't vote any longer for BBWAA awards, right? So the only reason he even retains the ability to vote is his dismissal.

metirish
Jan 03 2013 12:53 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

From the Chass piece

For some reason, the news media have not talked about the former catcher and steroids the way they have talked about Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. When I worked for The New York Times, I tried more than once to write about Piazza and steroids, but the baseball editor said I couldn’t because his name hadn’t been linked to steroids.

I can link his name to steroids, I countered, but I had to wait until I started this Web site to talk about Piazza’s acne-covered back, a generally accepted telltale sign of steroids use. Piazza’s passionate fans ridiculed me for that assertion (and surely will again) and ignored the fact that Piazza’s back cleared up as soon as baseball began testing for steroids.

A book for which Simon & Schuster paid Piazza an advance of $800,000 or $750,000 had been scheduled for publication next month, but there’s talk about a delay because of a dispute between the publisher and Piazza over the subject of steroids and their presence in the book.

The Hall of Fame wouldn’t look too good if Piazza were elected next week, and then his book came out with his admission that he used steroids. But maybe the Hall doesn’t care about Steroids. This was a headline on its Web site the other day:


For some reason????

So, he is indicating that Piazza is going to drop a steroid blockbuster is his book?

It's Murray Chass, I know.

dinosaur jesus
Jan 03 2013 12:55 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Has Chass maybe got Jack Morris mixed up with Cannonball Morris? Back when Chass was just a young beat writer on the Post-Gazette, Cannonball was about the biggest thing in Pittsburgh. Him and Pud Galvin. (These Bert Blylevens and Curt Schillings aren't fit to pull Pud's pud.) Or maybe in his mind they're the same guy, like Tony Fossas and Casey Fossum are for me. Forty-one wins in '86, and twelve shutouts! Three World Series titles! Four hundred and twenty-four wins in all, and the nastiest mustache in baseball! If that's not enough for the Hall of Fame, they need to build a new Hall just for him. Them. Whatever.

metirish
Jan 03 2013 12:57 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

His "About" profile on his blog, sorry, site is hilarious....it's like he wants to be a wanker.

http://www.murraychass.com/?page_id=23

Swan Swan H
Jan 03 2013 01:01 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
His "About" profile on his blog, sorry, site is hilarious....it's like he wants to be a wanker.

http://www.murraychass.com/?page_id=23


Careful, there... one of his grandchildren may be on this forum.

HahnSolo
Jan 03 2013 01:21 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

While 'willing' the Twins over the Braves in that game 7, did Morris also will Lonnie Smith to stumble around the base paths like Lindsey Lohan stepping out of a Meatpacking District club?

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 01:30 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Yeah, sometimes I feel like Chass is really savvy about keeping his profile up with provocative nonsense, and the joke is all on me, feeding him more page hits than he can handle.

Frayed Knot
Jan 03 2013 02:40 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
It's an interesting debate for sure. Do we want baseball to be closer to a tightly knit group of smart fans, or broad-reaching national pastime that everyone pays attention to? I lean towards the latter, which is why I always gladly welcome the Yankee bandwagoners to Queens when the opportunity arises.


I welcome intelligent, informed debate at any time or place.
The problem is that ESPN has become such the 800-lb gorilla of sports talk that what they do & say sets the agenda for much of the discussion in this country (in many smaller cities and towns the only choice for sports info is an ESPN-controlled outfit) and ESPN has decided to cast their lot almost entirely with football and basketball. The NFL because it's such a ratings monster; the NBA because the national TV package is a (mostly) ESPN/ABC product; and with NCAA football & hoops because they control virtually all of that too as those two provide most of their programming from August through April.

As a result, the hosts who man the everyday jobs up in Bristol are hired specifically because they're gridiron & hoops geeks knowing that when baseball does get on the four-letter network it's as a ghettoized sport and can be shunted off to the side and dealt with by the guys on BB2N and a handful of specialized journalists like Olney & Kurkjian, etc. What remains can generally be divided into two groups: those who are indifferent to the sport of baseball; or those who are openly hostile to it. Given the option of having that crew discuss baseball, I'd prefer they simply take a pass.

Ceetar
Jan 03 2013 02:48 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'd argue that that crew isn't exactly doing justice to football or basketball either. But more people into baseball, even through the ESPN filter, will eventually be more people into baseball. After some get invested into it once ESPN tells them to (and thinking like 15 year old kids here) they'll be baseball fans and as they discover more intelligent discussion, we'll have more fans we actually enjoy conversing with. I'm not suggesting _I_ will watch/listen to the shows to hear what they're blathering on about, but I'd be fine with them telling people to watch baseball and hoping one or two breaks the shackles.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 02:50 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

It's like that in a lot of media culture. Programming tends to ape the leader, because you as long as your programming is parallel you can entertain and sell the notion that you too might someday be the leader.

Mets – Willets Point
Jan 03 2013 03:07 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
It's like that in a lot of media culture. Programming tends to ape the leader, because you as long as your programming is parallel you can entertain and sell the notion that you too might someday be the leader.


It confounds me that the leader became the leader with programming that is basically Sports Shouting and that others want to imitate that.

[youtube]bsnpbOA739o#![/youtube]

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 03:21 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Market position, baby. They were first and by the time others got into the game, they had the audience and the money. Now, with Mickey Mouse money behind them, they couldn't falter if they tried.

Ashie62
Jan 03 2013 03:36 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Kinda like MTV...

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 03 2013 07:06 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy?


I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now?

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 03 2013 07:23 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 03 2013 08:56 PM

I guarantee there is ZERO chance that the writers don't elect anyone this year. There would be an uproar, and a huge economic hit to Cooperstown. The rules would be changed pronto, and the BBWAA would find itself with a very different process.

It's not like there is a constitutional amendment out there somewhere decreeing that the BBWAA gets to vote for the Hall of Fame. The Hall board could change the rules to make the Crane Pool Forum pick the honorees with a vote at the drop of a hat.

The writers saw how the veteran's group's rules were changed -- several times -- when it kept not electing someone.

Would there be all kinds of weeping and gnashing of teeth from the writers if this happened? Sure. But guess what? The Hall likes seeing thousands in town for induction weekend, and people coming through the turnstiles and buying stuff. It's not going to tolerate a bunch of self-important blowhards saying "No one is worthy" where there are a bunch of players with 500 (or more) homers, 3,000 (or more) hits and 300 (or more) wins sitting out there un-elected.

They might keep it with the writers, but there would be changes in the number of people voting or the percentage -- or opening the doors to other types of media people voting.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 03 2013 07:32 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Oh, and Murray Chass. This is DEPLORABLE:

"A book for which Simon & Schuster paid Piazza an advance of $800,000 or $750,000 had been scheduled for publication next month, but there’s talk about a delay because of a dispute between the publisher and Piazza over the subject of steroids and their presence in the book.

The Hall of Fame wouldn’t look too good if Piazza were elected next week, and then his book came out with his admission that he used steroids. But maybe the Hall doesn’t care about Steroids."


but there’s talk about a delay


What? "There is talk of..."

Either you have the information or you don't. This is, at best, horribly lazy. But I go right to sleazy. You don't hurt someone unless you are damn sure you are right.

That whole piece reads like a bitter old man with a vendetta.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 03 2013 08:16 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy?


I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now?


Why, he's making a show of embarrassing self-righteous ignorance at the Arizona Republic.

Gwreck
Jan 03 2013 08:44 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

1. Jeff Bagwell
2. Craig Biggio
3. Jack Morris
4. Dale Murphy
5. Tim Raines
6. Curt Schilling
7. Lee Smith

This would be the ballot of everybody's favorite Mets beat writer working for ESPN.

I know he's not very popular around here with some and on this issue, I will agree.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 03 2013 08:54 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

What an awful ballot, it's as though he wanted to appeal to -- and piss off -- all perspectives simultaneously.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 03 2013 09:00 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

"I plan to wait a year on Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and Mike Piazza before placing them on my ballot."

This, too, is bull. Will their stats improve over the next year?

And how can he vote for Bagwell and not Piazza, assuming that he is making Piazza wait because of whispers (And Murray Chass)

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 03 2013 09:08 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The logic is, I think, Bagwell already paid the price for suspicion by being unelected in his 1st year of eligibility.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 09:09 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

And how does he un-necessarily publish it and not spill a drop of ink to explaining his thinking?

Is this the year everybody decided to go crazy and not tell us?

metsmarathon
Jan 03 2013 09:10 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
From the Chass piece

For some reason, the news media have not talked about the former catcher and steroids the way they have talked about Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. When I worked for The New York Times, I tried more than once to write about Piazza and steroids, but the baseball editor said I couldn’t because his name hadn’t been linked to steroids.

I can link his name to steroids, I countered, but I had to wait until I started this Web site to talk about Piazza’s acne-covered back, a generally accepted telltale sign of steroids use. Piazza’s passionate fans ridiculed me for that assertion (and surely will again) and ignored the fact that Piazza’s back cleared up as soon as baseball began testing for steroids.


jesus christ murray. if you're such a steroidal bacne savant, then the only reason there's no link between piazza and steroids is because you are not nor ever were a journalist.

ya know what, you worked for the mother fucking times. the new york times. you don't think they would have wanted to be all over a biggish story like steroids in baseball? no, no, they're no news organization, i suppose...

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 03 2013 09:15 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsmarathon wrote:
metirish wrote:
From the Chass piece

For some reason, the news media have not talked about the former catcher and steroids the way they have talked about Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. When I worked for The New York Times, I tried more than once to write about Piazza and steroids, but the baseball editor said I couldn’t because his name hadn’t been linked to steroids.

I can link his name to steroids, I countered, but I had to wait until I started this Web site to talk about Piazza’s acne-covered back, a generally accepted telltale sign of steroids use. Piazza’s passionate fans ridiculed me for that assertion (and surely will again) and ignored the fact that Piazza’s back cleared up as soon as baseball began testing for steroids.


jesus christ murray. if you're such a steroidal bacne savant, then the only reason there's no link between piazza and steroids is because you are not nor ever were a journalist.

ya know what, you worked for the mother fucking times. the new york times. you don't think they would have wanted to be all over a biggish story like steroids in baseball? no, no, they're no news organization, i suppose...


Imagine, the Times wanted more evidence than bacne before inflicting harm on an athlete. And Chass is indignant about that!

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 09:19 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'm starting to guess that the whole "Piazza copped to it off the record" bit is either true or is believed to be true among enough writers, and they've spread the word around to each other: "Mikes dirty --- pass it on... but you can't write about it."

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 03 2013 09:24 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
metsguyinmichigan wrote:
LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy?


I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now?


Why, he's making a show of embarrassing self-righteous ignorance at the Arizona Republic.


Oh my, this is HORRIBLE!


"I am choosing to speak loudly by using silence.

This is my way of expressing my anger to baseball. Angry that the powers-that-be turned their backs while this was going on. Angry that it took us so long to shine light on it."

So he's protesting because HE AND OTHER SPORTSWRITERS "took so long to shine a light on it?"

I'm not sure this is the same guy I worked with. But he covered the Yankees while he was in Bridgeport, so it probably is. I have a funny story about him on the company softball team.

Frayed Knot
Jan 03 2013 09:31 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
I guarantee there is ZERO chance that the writers don't elect anyone this year. There would be an uproar, and a huge economic hit to Cooperstown. The rules would be changed pronto, and the BBWAA would find itself with a very different process.


So what, the BBWA members are going to conspire amongst themselves to rig the vote so as to not offend the Cooperstown Chamber of Commerce?


It's not like there is a constitutional amendment out there somewhere decreeing that the BBWAA gets to vote for the Hall of Fame.
The Hall board could change the rules to make the Crane Pool Forum pick the honorees with a vote at the drop of a hat.


Do you honestly believe they'd take a nearly 80 year process and turn it upside-down on the basis of one year's result? ... a result which, as pointed out somewhere above, has already happened before.



Look, I don't think there's going to be an empty ballot either, but not for any of the above reasons. The choices are simply too strong for all of them to get passed up.
I'm not buying any of the doomsday scenarios.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 03 2013 09:40 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
metsguyinmichigan wrote:
LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy?


I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now?


Why, he's making a show of embarrassing self-righteous ignorance at the Arizona Republic.


Oh my, this is HORRIBLE!


"I am choosing to speak loudly by using silence.

This is my way of expressing my anger to baseball. Angry that the powers-that-be turned their backs while this was going on. Angry that it took us so long to shine light on it."

So he's protesting because HE AND OTHER SPORTSWRITERS "took so long to shine a light on it?"

I'm not sure this is the same guy I worked with. But he covered the Yankees while he was in Bridgeport, so it probably is. I have a funny story about him on the company softball team.


It is him. I happened to linger at the site where another recent column plead swith Bud Selig to retire 21 forever and ever for Roberto Clemente, citing an event in Bridgeport honoring him. This is a guy who obviously stopped paying attention a long time ago.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 09:47 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Starting to become increasingly clear how that has become the norm, and these ballots have become a burden to them.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 03 2013 09:50 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Frayed Knot wrote:
metsguyinmichigan wrote:
I guarantee there is ZERO chance that the writers don't elect anyone this year. There would be an uproar, and a huge economic hit to Cooperstown. The rules would be changed pronto, and the BBWAA would find itself with a very different process.


So what, the BBWA members are going to conspire amongst themselves to rig the vote so as to not offend the Cooperstown Chamber of Commerce?


It's not like there is a constitutional amendment out there somewhere decreeing that the BBWAA gets to vote for the Hall of Fame.
The Hall board could change the rules to make the Crane Pool Forum pick the honorees with a vote at the drop of a hat.


Do you honestly believe they'd take a nearly 80 year process and turn it upside-down on the basis of one year's result? ... a result which, as pointed out somewhere above, has already happened before.



The Hall made changes in the veteran's committee multiple times after they didn't elect anyone. That one year where no one was elected, I don't recall there being any super-strong candidates that year, or any big protests.

Would they strip the BBWAA of the vote if no one is elected this year? Probably not, I was in a Chass-filled rage and over-reacted. But would there be some changes in the voting process? I wouldn't be stunned. 600 voters is a lot -- and that number seems to be growing steadily -- especially when a growing number of them are, well, idiots. It would make sense to start trimming some of the ancient Murray Chass types.

Or, instead of the 75 percent rule, they could say something like the top two or three vote-getters are elected each year, regardless of the percentage. The negates the impact of the blank-ballot types.

Valadius
Jan 03 2013 09:56 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'd lower the threshold to 60%. Everybody that reaches 60% gets in eventually. Let's spare people a year or two of waiting.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 03 2013 10:22 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

If you're looking to send a message without unduly influencing the actual vote count, there's always been an option: not to vote.

The problem is that my vote isn't one among 120 million; it's one among about 575. If MLB and the Hall of Fame won't provide guidelines about performance-enhancing drugs, it makes no sense to me to let 575 writers apply 575 different standards. I can speak for no one but myself, so myself says adieu...

To start with, I haven't covered games on a regular basis since 2002. Too many eligible voters like me have been away from the game for too long, and I think we undermine the integrity of the process. When I had spent seven seasons covering the White Sox and then the Mets as a full-time beat, followed by three seasons as an investigative reporter who spent a lot of time at the ballpark, I believe I was as qualified as anyone. But that was a long time ago. These days, my sons see more games in a year than I do.

As a journalist, I was also never completely comfortable with the idea of being a participant in a process I'm supposed to cover. I enjoyed it immensely, just as I enjoyed voting for MVP, Cy Young and everything else when I was a beat writer... The role comes with a sense of power and belonging that is intoxicating. And from a simple point of ego, having a Hall of Fame vote is a great tiebreaker in arguments around a Little League field or a bar.

For the most part, the members of the BBWAA have done an admirable job with their votes for Hall inductions. But too often, I've seen writers use their votes as a way to punish or reward players, and I don't think journalists should be in that position. I don't see voting for the Hall of Fame as the equivalent of a political reporter voting for a candidate; it's more like a political reporter serving in the Electoral College. I liked having that power, but I just can't justify it.


The blank ballot/"protest vote" is something else entirely, and much more like grandstanding.

Edgy MD
Jan 03 2013 11:10 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Another reasonable alternative is that they recognize the gravity of their votes, the cache it gives them and their outlets, and do a little research over the course of the year. Talk to somebody, compare them side by side. Look at the decades of precedents among who has gotten in previously. Use the internet. I won't tell.

Am I to believe more people were going to baseball games than ever before from 1995-2005, but no reporters were paying a lick of attention?

It's easy enough to read the criteria and use a sound consistent logic in applying them.

G-Fafif
Jan 04 2013 04:38 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Rubin's reasoning, as cut and pasted by Real Dirty Mets Blog. Based on the comments section at ESPN, I take it these were in the comments before, for whatever reason, Rubin/ESPN removed them.

While there is no smoking gun with Piazza related to performance-enhancing drugs, there are enough things swirling around to at least cause me to pause for one year:

• Back acne that you do not see on players today, and which appeared to clear up as testing was instituted.

• Reporting to camp significantly thinner for spring training (with yoga instructor in tow) as testing began.

• Tearing the groin muscle off the bone — an injury suggesting he was bulked up beyond the norm.


The full Chass, in other words.

Frayed Knot
Jan 04 2013 06:33 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

- The option of NOT voting has always been there and one that is often taken by various eligible members. The 675 number (assuming that's correct) sounds like the total number of those who qualify to vote but the actual number seems to me (without actually checking) to usually be in the low 500s. Blank votes as a protest over steroid issues are another story (a bit of a silly one if you ask me although I'm not going to bust a gut over someone doing that) but writers who long ago stopped covering the sport opting not to vote even though they have that right is nothing new.

- The election guidelines (ten years as a BWAA member) have been consistent for a long time now and, to paraphrase Captain Renault, I'd be SHOCKED ... SHOCKED!! if there was even a discussion about changing things as the result of one year without a new member (and, again, it's not like this hasn't happened before, nor do I think it's going to happen now). The Vets committee is an entirely different deal. That was and is a much smaller group with less specific membership requirements that they've tweaked a number of times over the years - both for electing no one and for electing too many (or too many questionable ones). In fact it wasn't even that they elected no one recently that spurred a change it was that no one got elected at least in part because the HoF players admitted to not knowing what their role was supposed to be with their newly granted powers.

- Lowering the threshold to 60% based on the idea that anyone who gets to 60 usually gets to 75 is a really dumb idea. I'd venture that most of those who get to 50% eventually get to 60% and so on down the line and you can see where that logic leads. The idea here isn't to get as many people as possible in. It's kind of just the opposite.

Ceetar
Jan 04 2013 06:50 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Frayed Knot wrote:
Blank votes as a protest over steroid issues are another story (a bit of a silly one if you ask me although I'm not going to bust a gut over someone doing that)


Blank votes are like a professor submitting the answer key to count in the curve.

The Hall isn't an inner sanctum protected by the writers, they're simply supposed to select who they think are deserving without politicizing it. Voting blank, moralizing, leaving guys off for a year or more because they want to punish a player are all against what they're supposed to be doing. Anyone suspecting of doing so, never mind admitting to doing so, should be stripped of their voting rights for 10 years. We've got zillions of writers out there that would love a vote.

In a way though, they've already changed by letting in internet writers. Guys that I respect a hell of a lot more than Chass, Rubin et all like Eno Sarris will, granted 10 years from now, get a vote which I suspect will be used much more responsibly.

metirish
Jan 04 2013 07:01 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I used to really want to visit the HOF , not so anymore,....it's a bit of a joke.

Frayed Knot
Jan 04 2013 07:02 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

In some cases a blank ballot might be the best one.

That's not saying that some don't do that for stupid reasons, but I don't think we want to get into a situation where some higher power scrutinizes each ballot and takes the voting privileges away from anyone whose answers they don't like. One of the good things about a large ballot is that a handful of kooky votes can't skew the overall results too badly. If this stuff was all cut-n-dried obvious there wouldn't be the need for a vote in the first place.

Swan Swan H
Jan 04 2013 07:08 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
I used to really want to visit the HOF , not so anymore,....it's a bit of a joke.


I've been there five or six times, and honestly spend 10% of my time, if that, in the 'Hall of Fame' area. The museum is the thing, and it's worth the visit.

Ceetar
Jan 04 2013 07:23 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Swan Swan H wrote:
metirish wrote:
I used to really want to visit the HOF , not so anymore,....it's a bit of a joke.


I've been there five or six times, and honestly spend 10% of my time, if that, in the 'Hall of Fame' area. The museum is the thing, and it's worth the visit.


yeah, this. It's a good time.



Frayed Knot wrote:
In some cases a blank ballot might be the best one.

That's not saying that some don't do that for stupid reasons, but I don't think we want to get into a situation where some higher power scrutinizes each ballot and takes the voting privileges away from anyone whose answers they don't like. One of the good things about a large ballot is that a handful of kooky votes can't skew the overall results too badly. If this stuff was all cut-n-dried obvious there wouldn't be the need for a vote in the first place.


Nope. not submitting a ballot is fine, purposing voting against guys is not. They're asked who should be in the Hall of Fame, not who shouldn't. why should they be able to downgrade other voters by submitting blank?

metirish
Jan 04 2013 07:33 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Speaking of people who should be in the HOF......Pete Rose has a reality show....

http://blogs.discovery.com/tlc-new-now/ ... -tlc-.html

Frayed Knot
Jan 04 2013 07:38 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Voting for who should be in the HoF is the same thing as voting for who shouldn't.

Every year there are several dozen choices so MOST of the boxes next to each are blank.
Say there are 30 choices in a given year, I'm not getting how one guy's vote with 8 check marks and 22 blanks is automatically superior to the one who went with 3 yeas and 27 nays, or the one who opted for a complete shutout. Hell, Vlad here thinks anyone not voting for the max of 10 should be tarred and feathered.
They're voting their consciences here, not for quotas.

Edgy MD
Jan 04 2013 07:46 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I have no problem with writers moralizing. It's a moral burden they bear, at least in part. I have a very big problem with them using inconsistent and petulant logic. What color were the pimples on Tim Raines' back? On Alan Trammel's? On Craig Biggio's?

Ceetar wrote:
Anyone suspecting of doing so, never mind admitting to doing so, should be stripped of their voting rights for 10 years. We've got zillions of writers out there that would love a vote.

Isn't equating suspicion with guilt, and assigning arbitrary punishments, the problem?

MFS62
Jan 04 2013 08:13 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

In the absence of any hard evidence, looks can be deceiving. Acne can have many causes.
Just remind any Yankee fan that Paul O'Neill's skin looked like a topographic map of a Lunar landing site.
Steroids?
Perish the thought.

And did he actually see Piazza's bacne? Or was he just told about it?

I believe that the HOF should not be watered down. It should be reserved for the very greatest players of their era; players about whom you could tell your grandkids about great memories they provided. Not necessarily about this year, but if there aren't any candidates you feel you should vote for, you don't have to vote for a lesser player.

Later

Edgy MD
Jan 04 2013 08:35 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Chass switches beats:


Murray Chass, Weather Reporter:

[list]
"It's April, so I can only assume it's raining."[/list:u]

Murray Chass, Film Reporter:

[list]
"Moneyball features Brad Pitt wearing a tennis visor. I have to conclude that it's some sort of... tennis movie."[/list:u]

Murray Chass, Crime Reporter:

[list]
"He was a black man in Mamaroneck. You do the math."[/list:u]

metsmarathon
Jan 04 2013 08:43 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

y'know, it'd be one thing if the anti-roider-voters were the new kids on the block, who weren't really in a position to take a stance against doping and other chemical enhancements while it either nascent or rampant.

but its generally all the writers who were around the game at the time, who generally looked the other way or chose not to dig too deep, or were simply naiive and gullible, and were otherwise facilitating the tarnishing of the game's um, immaculate, historical legacy.

its the new-fangled stats guys who seem better able to view the landscape with the cold light of reason, and consider the context of not only the performances of the steroid era, but also the environment of the steroid era which enabled and fostered and contributed to the inflation of those stats.

Vic Sage
Jan 04 2013 10:37 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.


as long as sportsmanship and character are part of the voting criteria for the HOF, the Hall has put BBWAA writers in the position of being moral arbiters. However, as journalists, they are NOT supposed to be moral arbiters, but reporters of substantiated facts. These are two very different roles which are being conflated for rhetorical purposes. It seems to me a reporter who didn't report about steroids abuse (or cocaine abuse, or amphetimine abuse, etc) because he didn't have the evidence an editor would naturally require before publishing such a story, can still have the responsibility to use what he knows (or thinks he knows) about a player in exercising his HOF vote. In fact he is REQUIRED to consider those things, as per the voting criteria.

Unfortunately, i think the "morals" criteria is applied inconsistently, where its applied only in the negative, to keep guys out that writers think are morally undeserving, but rarely used in the positive as a tie-breaker for a marginal candidate of sterling character (e.g., Dale Murphy). And I don't think that journalists should have this authority in any event. They should cover news, not create it. Judging morality of the particpants could well skew the way they report and cover the sport.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 04 2013 10:50 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Blank/protest ballots strike me as a similar thing as-- only of a much, much less important scope than-- jury nullification. If it's justifiable, it's justifiable as a rock chucked by a citizen at a monolithic, broken system, to which they have little to no access.

The thing with HOF voting is, in this case, all of these guys are presumably legislators in said system. If they think the voting process-- whether it's the mechanics, or the selection criteria, or the restrictive expiration dates on the sandwich coupon they get as a reward for submitting a ballot-- is flawed, they have other means to address said process... since they're all members of the organization, with a say over its bylaws/processes.

Plus, holy hell, it's not like they lack for venues to express protest if they're feeling peevish-- THEY'RE SPORTSWRITERS.

Edgy MD
Jan 04 2013 10:53 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I would imagine most baseball writers who've had 10 or more years in the BBWAA have at some point been given responsibility beyond reporting and gotten a column in which to opine beyond the facts, on matters moral, cultural, and aesthetic. (And if you believe John Keats, those all dovetail.)

Their history as reporters should have taught them to build these opinions on a credible foundation of substantiated facts, so I'm going to disagree a bit with Vic here. I don't think they're failing because their real skill set is in researching and reporting substantiated facts, but because it ain't, or if it ever was, those skills have long since dried up, as their careers have done a lot better for them as purveyors of opinions powered by hubris and volume, rather than sober research and cross-checking.

Vic Sage
Jan 04 2013 11:06 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Not true.

The BBWAA has no authority to change the rules; only the HOF Board can amend voting criteria and rules.
And just because someone is a member of the BBWAA doesn't necessarily he/she has the authority to have published their personal opinions. They are supposed to be journalists, after all.
And even if they can, why should they be limited to only one way to express their views? As a voter, they cast a ballot, and as a journalist, they can explain that ballot.

This is jury nullification, without your caveats.

Ashie62
Jan 04 2013 11:13 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

How about "term limits" for the HOF voters...

Edgy MD
Jan 04 2013 11:37 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Vic Sage wrote:
Not true.

What's not true?

Vic Sage wrote:
The BBWAA has no authority to change the rules; only the HOF Board can amend voting criteria and rules.
And just because someone is a member of the BBWAA doesn't necessarily he/she has the authority to have published their personal opinions. They are supposed to be journalists, after all.

It certainly doesn't mean that the nature their job is, by definition, distinct from rendering historical judgment on a player's legacy.

Vic Sage wrote:
And even if they can, why should they be limited to only one way to express their views? As a voter, they cast a ballot, and as a journalist, they can explain that ballot.

They certainly shouldn't. Rubin casting his ballot and publishing it without explanation was seriously weak.

Ashie62
Jan 04 2013 11:56 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I don't like the idea of this closed community of voters influencing each other with their own gossip and inuendo when voting time comes up.

And like the workings of Congress the HOF Board and BBWAA are not likely to change much of anything..

Vic Sage
Jan 04 2013 02:06 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

What's not true?


This:

The thing with HOF voting is, in this case, all of these guys are presumably legislators in said system. If they think the voting process-- whether it's the mechanics, or the selection criteria, or the restrictive expiration dates on the sandwich coupon they get as a reward for submitting a ballot-- is flawed, they have other means to address said process... since they're all members of the organization, with a say over its bylaws/processes.


Factually untrue. The sportswriters do not in fact have a say over HOF voting bylaws/processes and are not "legislators" in this system.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 04 2013 04:31 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ashie62 wrote:
I don't like the idea of this closed community of voters influencing each other with their own gossip and inuendo when voting time comes up.

And like the workings of Congress the HOF Board and BBWAA are not likely to change much of anything..


Hell, they do this all the time, especially for the awards. Those things are massive doses of group think.

Ashie62
Jan 04 2013 04:35 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Thats why I don't take either institutions very seriously anymore..

Edgy MD
Jan 07 2013 11:36 AM
HOF Frag

Current tallies have Curt Schilling --- doubly penalized for playing in a steroids era and for not being as good as at least one other known user --- at 38.1% of the vote. That's 24.6 points behind Jack Morris.

What is wrong with folks?

Swan Swan H
Jan 07 2013 11:57 AM
Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Edgy MD wrote:
Current tallies have Curt Schilling --- doubly penalized for playing in a steroids era and for not being as good as at least one other known user --- at 38.1% of the vote. That's 24.6 points behind Jack Morris.

What is wrong with folks?


Could it be they think he's an arrogant, unlikeable, self-promoting two-faced prick about whom virtually no ex-teammate has a good word to say, and who duped Rhode Island into funding his business to the tune of $75 million and cut and ran once things got tough? Someone who they might like to see answering questions about why he didn't get in? Just a guess.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 07 2013 11:59 AM
Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Sean Casey's reportedly a hell of a guy. Why isn't HE in the Hall yet?

Swan Swan H
Jan 07 2013 12:04 PM
Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Sean Casey's reportedly a hell of a guy. Why isn't HE in the Hall yet?


If Barry Bonds had Sean Casey's personality he'd get in a hell of a lot sooner. I'm not implying that personality gets you in, just that it might keep you from getting votes your stat line might have earned, and Schilling is as disliked as just about anyone. Doug Fucking Glanville called him out, and he's practically Dale Carnegie.

Mo Vaughn is the 1995 AL MVP, not Albert Belle. Switch heads and Belle wins in a runaway.

Edgy MD
Jan 07 2013 12:20 PM
Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

I accidentally gobbled up last year's thread.

Edgy MD
Jan 07 2013 01:27 PM
Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

Transplanted subsequent posts onto the 2013 thread.

Swan Swan H wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
Current tallies have Curt Schilling --- doubly penalized for playing in a steroids era and for not being as good as at least one other known user --- at 38.1% of the vote. That's 24.6 points behind Jack Morris.

What is wrong with folks?


Could it be they think he's an arrogant, unlikeable, self-promoting two-faced prick about whom virtually no ex-teammate has a good word to say, and who duped Rhode Island into funding his business to the tune of $75 million and cut and ran once things got tough? Someone who they might like to see answering questions about why he didn't get in? Just a guess.

Could be, but do you really think this is the case? I doubt more than a handful of voters put any thought in this direction.

Swan Swan H
Jan 07 2013 01:42 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

His abrasive personality, shall we say, comes up in a lot of articles about Schilling.

Schilling aside, if you are asking me if I think a sportswriter would, pencil in hand, let the player's personality affect whether or not to write their name on the Hall of Fame ballot, I would say they absolutely would.

Edgy MD
Jan 07 2013 01:48 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Well, I'm sure some do. I have trouble believing that number, when applied to Schilling, add up to the difference between him and Jack Morris.

Vic Sage
Jan 07 2013 01:58 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

when you add those idiots to the idiots who just look at win totals (Morris/254 v Schilling/216), i think that's enough idiocy to explain it.

Swan Swan H
Jan 07 2013 02:04 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Just so I'm clear, I think Schilling ought to be in. If they kept the jerks out you could mount the all of the plaques on one sheet of plywood. I wouldn't want to have dinner with him, but he did enough to get in.

Ceetar
Jan 07 2013 06:24 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Heyman's ballot. I give up. I just don't care anymore, I'm just going to continue to point and laugh at these guys.

1. Tim Raines: The second greatest leadoff hitter of his era walked a lot and rarely was thrown out trying to steal (second best steal percentage for those with 300 steals). Works for those who want to see greatness (like myself) with seven superb years to start the career, but also for those who like career numbers since he hung around for 16 mostly good to very good seasons after the initial seven great ones. Should take a big jump and eventually get in.

2. Jack Morris: He defined workhorse and ace in the '80s and early '90s, yet he remains as controversial a non-steroid candidate as there is. He made 14 Opening Day starts, tied with Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson, Walter Johnson and Cy Young for second most ever, behind only Tom Seaver, and was also the No. 1 pitcher of three World Series winners, clear evidence of his reputation and impact in his day. Tom Verducci of Sports Illustrated had the stat that defines him: in 14 consecutive seasons, he pitched eight innings or more in 52 percent of his starts. Detractors point to a less-than-glowing career 3.90 ERA, but his career is better summarized by a great decade (most wins of the '80s) and great moments (his Game 7 performance for his hometown Minnesota Twins was maybe the best pitching performance under the circumstances in decades). He was thought good enough to be the ace on teams that had Bert Blyleven and Dave Stewart, and to receive Cy Young votes in seven seasons. I can't allow his vast accomplishments to be re-evaluated downward by a new emphasis on different numbers.

3. Dale Murphy: He was about the best power hitter in the game for a seven-year span and won five Gold Gloves in that time. A clean living Josh Hamilton. Hurt by career petering out in normal fashion, pre-steroid style, leaving him two home runs shy of 400. A feel-good vote in a feel-bad year.

4. Curt Schilling: Was great for seasons, and for postseasons. Scores high on the impact meter, but maybe not for longevity. He was one of three pitchers who had three 300-strikeout seasons (Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan are the others), he owns the best strikeout-to-walk ratio in modern baseball and he helped pitch his teams to three World Series championships. Pitched to a lot of steroid guys, and while he might not seem all that credible on some other issues, there's no evidence he juiced.

5. Don Mattingly: Career was very much like Murphy's. Was among the best players for a short period of time. Also won a bunch of Gold Gloves (nine) and set a great example. Also am not going to let a retroactive range guess dissuade me from believing he was one of the very best defensively at first.

6. Fred McGriff: His home run total of 493 would look a lot better if so many around him weren't juicing. Hit 30 or more home runs seven consecutive seasons and had 100 RBI eight seasons. He's 26th all-time in homers even if he came up seven short of the magic number (and would be a lot higher if everyone played by the same rules).



whole column if you want to laugh with me without deeming it another page hit.





This year's Hall of Fame ballot contains the most star-studded collection of baseball names outside of, well, the Hall of Fame.

But, oh, what a mess.

The first honest-to-goodness steroid-era ballot is comprised mostly of elite players -- even all-time greats -- with a taint and others who were awfully good and played by the rules. There are 20 players of 37 who have some sort of case. But unless you find illegal performance-enhancing drugs OK or irrelevant, for some there may not be even one easy "yes" on this ballot.

Yes, a mess.

It's possible no one gets in. If one or two does, the most likely may be the scrappy, consistent, persistent Craig Biggio, who had 3,000 hits, played three positions ably and has no steroid taint. However, he still may not be one of the 10 best players on this ballot.

More on MLB Hall of Famers
Column
Scott Miller
My Hall of Fame ballot: Passing on steroid guys, giving nod to Morris
Related links
Writer starts petition to change HOF voting process
Some active 'not quite good enough' for Hall of Fame players
Active players closing in on Cooperstown
Five active surefire Hall-of-Famers
An all-star team of worst current Hall of Famers
More MLB coverage
Miller | Heyman| Knobler | EyeOnBaseball | Blog
Apart from voters so upset they turned in a blank ballot, very few ballots will look alike. (I saw a friend's ballot and it was totally different, and I mean every single name.)

None of us can be too happy about a ballot that feels like more plight than task. Filling out the ballot is supposed to be a privilege. For this first time, it felt like a burden.

Some may view this ballot as our punishment for doing such an awful job of protecting the game from steroid abuse. And we did do a very bad job (myself included). Maybe it is justice.

There are a number of ways to view this group. And likely no right answers.

If someone else wants to wants to simplify things, not worry about steroids and just go by the players’ accomplishments, their feats and their numbers, regardless of how they achieved them, I get it.

If someone wants to ignore the character clause, I get that too. There are already plenty of scoundrels in Cooperstown, I know.

If someone wants to disregard the steroid taint because the players (many of them anyway) got away with it at the time, I understand that, too.

If someone wants to point out that steroids weren't specifically disallowed in baseball before 2002, well, I can buy that, too -- to a degree. But I will point out that steroids were illegal even then, and that everyone understood it was a no-no to the point where everyone except Ken Caminiti who took them and was asked about them, even back in those days, lied about it.

And if someone wants to make the call that the truly elite all-time greats (Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens) would have been Hall of Famers even without pharmaceutical help, I understand.

If someone wants to say the Hall of Fame wouldn't be the same without Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, I understand that, too. Because it wouldn't.

And if someone wants to differentiate between a failed test, an admission, a pseudo admission, a sudden inability to speak English, anecdotal or other circumstantial evidence, of course I grasp that, as well.

I leaned for months toward disregarding their obvious steroid ties and voting for Bonds and Clemens, arguably the best position player and pitcher over the past 40 years (at least by what they did on the field). But ultimately, I just couldn't do it. At least not this time.

The more I thought about it, the more I didn't want to celebrate their careers. Not yet, anyway.

More to the point, I didn't want to reward the cheats.

The steroid guys already hit more home runs, recorded more strikeouts, made more money and won more awards thanks to one thing: having less integrity than some or many of their clean competitors.

I am not about to add to their already crowded mantles.

It's more than the character clause, though. Or even a sense of fairness. We should all wonder about the authenticity of the numbers, too.

How real are the numbers of the steroid guys? And how do we know?

Just to get a gauge what victims of the unleveled playing field think, I quizzed a few former players I respect about what they thought. Don Mattingly, responding to my query at the winter meetings last month about whether I should vote for the steroid guys, answered with two words: "What for?"

What for, indeed. We blew it in the '80s and '90s, and we'll never find exactly the right way to balance things. But why continue to make them less balanced, less fair. Why, indeed.

One of Clemens' legal mouthpieces recently chastised writers who might dare omit Clemens from the ballot. But I have news for him.

This isn't like his case where the lawyer gets to pick the 12 dummies who might fall for his courtroom BS. And even though Clemens' high-priced talkers somehow got him acquitted of perjury, that hardly erases the mountain of evidence that he's one of the greatest juicers in baseball history.

Maybe that jury didn't believe he belonged in jail. But that doesn't mean he belongs in the Hall, either.

This isn't a court of law. Nobody is being thrown in jail. The standard for proof isn't quite as high.

But justice should be a goal.

Nobody should feel great about their ballot. I know I don't.

In my attempt to form an all-clean ballot, I have omitted arguably the seven players whose numbers are best, whose accomplishments are greatest and whose place once seemed most secure. That's not a happy feeling. But ultimately, I voted yes on the six players I felt were deserving of the Hall, six we can honor and happily celebrate.

Below is my ballot, followed by my near misses, the "very good but not great," a few in the "what are they doing here" category, and then far too many "Not This time."

My ballot
1. Tim Raines: The second greatest leadoff hitter of his era walked a lot and rarely was thrown out trying to steal (second best steal percentage for those with 300 steals). Works for those who want to see greatness (like myself) with seven superb years to start the career, but also for those who like career numbers since he hung around for 16 mostly good to very good seasons after the initial seven great ones. Should take a big jump and eventually get in.

2. Jack Morris: He defined workhorse and ace in the '80s and early '90s, yet he remains as controversial a non-steroid candidate as there is. He made 14 Opening Day starts, tied with Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson, Walter Johnson and Cy Young for second most ever, behind only Tom Seaver, and was also the No. 1 pitcher of three World Series winners, clear evidence of his reputation and impact in his day. Tom Verducci of Sports Illustrated had the stat that defines him: in 14 consecutive seasons, he pitched eight innings or more in 52 percent of his starts. Detractors point to a less-than-glowing career 3.90 ERA, but his career is better summarized by a great decade (most wins of the '80s) and great moments (his Game 7 performance for his hometown Minnesota Twins was maybe the best pitching performance under the circumstances in decades). He was thought good enough to be the ace on teams that had Bert Blyleven and Dave Stewart, and to receive Cy Young votes in seven seasons. I can't allow his vast accomplishments to be re-evaluated downward by a new emphasis on different numbers.

3. Dale Murphy: He was about the best power hitter in the game for a seven-year span and won five Gold Gloves in that time. A clean living Josh Hamilton. Hurt by career petering out in normal fashion, pre-steroid style, leaving him two home runs shy of 400. A feel-good vote in a feel-bad year.

4. Curt Schilling: Was great for seasons, and for postseasons. Scores high on the impact meter, but maybe not for longevity. He was one of three pitchers who had three 300-strikeout seasons (Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan are the others), he owns the best strikeout-to-walk ratio in modern baseball and he helped pitch his teams to three World Series championships. Pitched to a lot of steroid guys, and while he might not seem all that credible on some other issues, there's no evidence he juiced.

5. Don Mattingly: Career was very much like Murphy's. Was among the best players for a short period of time. Also won a bunch of Gold Gloves (nine) and set a great example. Also am not going to let a retroactive range guess dissuade me from believing he was one of the very best defensively at first.

6. Fred McGriff: His home run total of 493 would look a lot better if so many around him weren't juicing. Hit 30 or more home runs seven consecutive seasons and had 100 RBI eight seasons. He's 26th all-time in homers even if he came up seven short of the magic number (and would be a lot higher if everyone played by the same rules).

Near misses
7. Alan Trammell: There are a lot of great arguments for Trammell, including the one where someone points out that the Tigers never would have traded him straight-up for Ozzie Smith. But none apparently has quite convinced me yet.

8. Craig Biggio: He probably has the best chance to get in this year considering his impressive lifetime numbers (did you know he's the all-time leader for doubles by a right-handed batter?), and I certainly wouldn't object if he did. I am one who doesn't think there are magic numbers, (i.e. 3,000 hits) and prefer greatness to longevity, so I leaned no, on first go-round anyway.

9. Edgar Martinez: Had that pretty slash line of .312/.418/.515. But since he was mostly a DH, I would have liked a bit more power, longevity or speed. Great, but pretty one-dimensional.

10. Bernie Williams: He had many great moments, almost all of them in October. Add his postseason stats and you're getting closer.

11. Lee Smith: He retired as the all-time save leader and had many of the four- five- and six-out variety. Terrific and consistent, but I'm a tough grader on specialty guys. There's a reason relievers, even closers, make a lot less than starters.

12. Kenny Lofton: I'm glad he has some supporters because it opened my eyes to what a very fine career he had. But he finished in the top 10 in MVP voting only once (in the strike year of 1994).

13. Larry Walker: He had terrific all-around talent, and for a while, otherworldly numbers. But he did most of his damage in Coors Field's pre-humidifier days. Hard to know how to judge, but doesn't quite make it here.

Very good but not quite great
14. David Wells: Won a fair number of games, struck out a lot more than he walked, was very good in October and pitched a perfect game. Very, very nice career.
15. Shawn Green: Had .494 career slugging percentage. Darned good.

16. Steve Finley: One of only eight players with 300 home runs and 300 steals. Better than you think or remember.

17. Sandy Alomar Jr. : Good player, great leader.

18. Julio Franco: Oldest player to hit a home run (48, if he was even that young).

19. Reggie Sanders: Another one of the eight players with 300 home runs and 300 steals.

20. Jeff Conine: A winner. Though probably not on Jan. 9.

21. Roberto Hernandez I: Nice long career, and 326 saves.

22. Jose Mesa: Basically had Roberto Hernandez's career. Five fewer saves, though.

23. Ryan Klesko: Had .870 career OPS, which is pretty darned good.

What are they doing on the ballot?
24. Aaron Sele: Nice curveball.

25. Jeff Cirillo: Had decent career. Can't possibly get a vote.

26. Woody Williams: Was in the postseason a fair amount, though he wasn't especially good those times.

27. Royce Clayton: Better player than actor.

28. Todd Walker: Very nice complementary player.

29. Mike Stanton Capable set-up man was said to have been set-up for HGH by his agent.

30. Rondell White: Nicest man to appear in Mitchell Report?

Not this time
31. Barry Bonds: Love the 1.422 OPS in 2004. When he was 40.

32. Roger Clemens: Twilight of his career was better than real part of his career.

33. Mark McGwire: Can be compared to only three batters after age 33: Babe Ruth, Ted Williams and Bonds. Before that, he was compared to Jay Buhner.

34. Rafael Palmeiro: Hall of Fame stats and congressional acting performance.

35. Sammy Sosa: There's really no more hard evidence on him than a few others, but between the corked bat, the 66 home runs, a report of a failed 2003 test and confused testimony, he seems emblematic of an era. Will delay my vote on him until more evidence is in.

36. Mike Piazza: As with Sosa, I delayed my "yes" vote on the greatest hitting catcher of all-time to await more evidence. It has been reported he's writing a book, so perhaps he will shed some light.

37. Jeff Bagwell: Deserving on the numbers, but as with Sosa and Piazza, I delayed my "yes" vote until further proof/word.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 07 2013 07:43 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Horrible.

bmfc1
Jan 07 2013 09:02 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

F anyone that votes for Mattingly but didn't vote for Keith.

Edgy MD
Jan 07 2013 09:33 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

2. Jack Morris: He defined workhorse and ace in the '80s and early '90s, yet he remains as controversial a non-steroid candidate as there is.

I was there in the eighties and he never "defined" ace, as can be surmised from his zero Cy Young Awards. In almost any season of their respective careers, four out of five GMs I just made up in my head would have taken Dave Stieb (1.4% of the vote in his only year on the BBWAA ballot) over Morris. Frank Viola and Bret Saberhagen --- these guys defined ace.

Seriously, what was he paying attention to?

I can't allow his vast accomplishments to be re-evaluated downward by a new emphasis on different numbers.


ERA?

Personally, i found the long-form column, including his torment over the ballot compelling. But come on, use a reasonable and consistent standard and at least you'll get someplace. (Craig Biggio wasn't great? From 27-33, the guy was a war machine.)

Somebody is confusing greatness with glamour. I think I need to pick another Armando fight with him.

Ceetar
Jan 08 2013 05:28 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

[url]http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/07/jon-heyman-wants-jack-morris-in-the-hall-of-fame-and-wont-let-the-facts-get-in-his-way-in-order-to-make-it-happen/

Heyman wrote:
He was thought good enough to be the ace on teams that had Bert Blyleven and Dave Stewart, and to receive Cy Young votes in seven seasons.


Jack Morris and Bert Blyleven were never teammates. Jack Morris played one season with Dave Stewart. In that one season — 1993 — Morris was 7-12 with a 6.19 ERA. It’s possible that Heyman is calling Morris the “ace” of that 1993 Jays team because he got the Opening Day start, but he didn’t distinguish himself at all that year, he was out of the rotation by early September and was left off the postseason roster. Some ace.


Heyman's since removed that line from his article.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 07:46 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Without an explicit retraction? That's pathetic.

MFS62
Jan 08 2013 07:51 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

bmfc1 wrote:
F anyone that votes for Mattingly but didn't vote for Keith.

Apparently its because Mattingly was good for "a short period of time".

Later

duan
Jan 08 2013 08:39 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

this is going to be a weird one, but what's totally bizarre is how Tim Raines seems to be coming out as the winner of it. He's a bona-fide Hall of Fame player (unlike Jack Morris) but it's weird that it's the strongest class in living memory that's bringing him to the forefront.

I don't really know what lines I'd draw on the 'steroid' issue, but guys who sat right through it and didn't bother to report it are the last ones that should be high and mighty - for all their wailing and gnashing of teeth "Some may view this ballot as our punishment for doing such an awful job of protecting the game from steroid abuse. And we did do a very bad job (myself included). Maybe it is justice."

Ashie62
Jan 08 2013 09:03 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I would vote for Biggio ahead of Raines...

HahnSolo
Jan 08 2013 11:29 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

So, Heyman doesn't believe in "magic" numbers, OK.

Clearly true, since:
Morris's credentials - most wins in the 80s! IN!!
Biggio's crednetials - most doubles by a righthanded better EVER! NOT IN!!

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 11:33 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Morris also played keyboards for Ace of Base or something.

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 08 2013 11:37 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

HahnSolo wrote:
So, Heyman doesn't believe in "magic" numbers, OK.

Clearly true, since:
Morris's credentials - most wins in the 80s! IN!!
Biggio's crednetials - most doubles by a righthanded better EVER! NOT IN!!


Well, to be fair, by magic numbers I think he means "round" numbers. Like 500 homers or 3000 hits. And I tend to agree that those should not make anyone an automatic.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 12:03 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Well, what is "most wins in the 80s" though, but an understanding that meaning is achieved when numbers end in zero. Nobody gives a crap who had the most wins between 1953 and 1962.

He claims to want greatness rather than accumulation, then tries to sneak Jack Morris through on a technical achievement he pulled off largely by staying healthy, playing for a good offensive team, and... accumulating.

Valadius
Jan 08 2013 12:07 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

This is shaping up to be the nightmare I've long thought might come. What a mess.

seawolf17
Jan 08 2013 12:29 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Valadius wrote:
This is shaping up to be the nightmare I've long thought might come. What a mess.

It totally is. You could induct twelve people out of this group, and they're going to get nobody because a bunch of sportswriters have bugs up their asses.

Vic Sage
Jan 08 2013 01:39 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

i don't think it's either a "nightmare" or a "mess".

If no one gets in this year, someone will likely get in next year. If the writers want some more time to let the dust settle on the Steroids era before jumping in with both feet, or just want to penalize the PED suspects with a 1-year ("not on the first ballot, you don't!") suspension, and if some of the younger voters are considering a wider range of statistical criteria for enshrinement, thus leading to more diversity in the vote than in the past, then we'll have some planes stacking up over LaGuardia for a few years. And that's ok with me.

Now if the writers continue to vote no one in over a prolonged period, then there may be a systemic problem to be reviewed, given that they will have been overlooking worthy honorees by any measure. But i don't have a problem, in principle, with keeping the standards high, and in considering the "morals clause", rather than lowering standards to a point where the HoF is debased and ultimately rendered meaningless. Now THAT would be a mess that is uncorrectable. In fact, I think the Hall is done more damage in the long run by voting in players with impressive but not all-time-great careers like Morris, Lee, McGriff, Mattingly or Murphy than it is damaged by holding out Clemens and Bonds for a few years.

Frayed Knot
Jan 08 2013 01:54 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Vic Sage wrote:
i don't think it's either a "nightmare" or a "mess".

If no one gets in this year, someone will likely get in next year. If the writers want some more time to let the dust settle on the Steroids era before jumping in with both feet, or just want to penalize the PED suspects with a 1-year ("not on the first ballot, you don't!") suspension, and if some of the younger voters are considering a wider range of statistical criteria for enshrinement, thus leading to more diversity in the vote than in the past, then we'll have some planes stacking up over LaGuardia for a few years. And that's ok with me.

Now if the writers continue to vote no one in over a prolonged period, then there may be a systemic problem to be reviewed, given that they will have been overlooking worthy honorees by any measure. But i don't have a problem, in principle, with keeping the standards high, and in considering the "morals clause", rather than lowering standards to a point where the HoF is debased and ultimately rendered meaningless. Now THAT would be a mess that is uncorrectable. In fact, I think the Hall is done more damage in the long run by voting in players with impressive but not all-time-great careers like Morris, Lee, McGriff, Mattingly or Murphy than it is damaged by holding out Clemens and Bonds for a few years.


Yup on all accounts.

Gwreck
Jan 08 2013 02:01 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Vic Sage wrote:
I think the Hall is done more damage in the long run by voting in players with impressive but not all-time-great careers like Morris, Lee, McGriff, Mattingly or Murphy


Agreed. Since 2001, the HOF has welcomed Kirby Puckett, Bill Mazeroski, Bruce Sutter, Rich Gossage, Jim Rice and Andre Dawson, all of whom are weak to poor choices. No offense fellas, but you're not on the same level.

than it is damaged by holding out Clemens and Bonds for a few years.


My worry is that with the voters' refusal to elect worthy candidates they become more likely to vote in the fringe/poor candidates, ie. Jack Morris.

Ceetar
Jan 08 2013 02:03 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

dust from the steroid era? What dust? Dust they've kicked up themselves? Dust they ignored? What about the other dust they've decided doesn't get you dirty, or players there played during a time when the writers decided there wasn't any dust?

The writers are waiting for someone to tell them what to do, or somehow do a retroactive blood test for substances on their naughty list.

For some players. For others, whatever let 'em in. The only way I buy any moralizing about PEDs is if a writer simply refuses to vote any more for players that played after like..1980?

What they're doing now is selective and arbitrary. There are already users in the Hall, and more will go in no matter what shape the witch hunt continues in.

It IS a mess. You've got a system set up to honor the best in the game, but aren't doing so. This is a "check is in the mail" thing. I'll pay you that money I owe you tomorrow. You'll get it eventually. Don't worry.

And this is all with having roughly no idea how much steroids affect results.

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 08 2013 02:10 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I agree too. Except that I want McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens to never get in. Anyone who has disgraced the game the way that they have should not be enshrined in a Hall of Fame.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 02:13 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Which roid users are in the Hall of Fame?

Ceetar
Jan 08 2013 02:18 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Which roid users are in the Hall of Fame?


We don't know, but the odds are heavily in favor of their already being one there. We simply DON'T KNOW who used.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 02:22 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

No, you don't know. Exactly the logic you decry there.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 02:24 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
There are already users in the Hall, and more will go in...

This implies that you know.

Ceetar
Jan 08 2013 02:29 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

All I said was there are already users in the hall. That's what I (and others) believe.

And hell, it's more sound than some of the accusations voters are tossing around. Rather admit a billion users than keep one innocent person out, whereas most voters don't even have a firm stance on what they want out of this situation, but it's on them and "well, maybe the dust will settle and we'll know more about what to do" doesn't cut it. The rules put in a 5 year "dust settling" period. It's over. Get off the freaking fence or turn in your voter card.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 02:39 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
For some players. For others, whatever let 'em in. The only way I buy any moralizing about PEDs is if a writer simply refuses to vote any more for players that played after like..1980?

Well, others have different years selected, but several seem to be doing just this.

The opinion stated as fact continues to be disappointing.

seawolf17
Jan 08 2013 02:40 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Then I want them all to turn in the money they earned from every commentary they wrote about the McGwire/Sosa home run chase, and Roger Clemens being a World Series hero in Toronto, and about Mike Piazza's 9/21 home run.

The more I hear these writers bitch about the steroid era, the more I want Barry Bonds in.

metsmarathon
Jan 08 2013 02:44 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

pud galvin.

also, there's fairly strong speculation that both ruth and mantle each missed time as a result of a quackish injection of animal testosterone. sheep testosterone for the babe, and some funky steroid/amphetamine mix for the mick.

people'd been using animal balls for a millenium or more, and testosterone was identified back in the late 1800s. nobody used it (or anything like it) in pro baseball until jose canseco? bullshit.

the synthesis of testosterone earned some handy chemists a nobel prize back in '39. it was in use in us sports programs in the 60s, and wide use by the 70s.

maybe galvin and ruth and mantle get a pass for not knowing what they were doing, or trying to do, but i find it impossible to conceive that they would be the only players to try it.

Ceetar
Jan 08 2013 02:48 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:

The opinion stated as fact continues to be disappointing.


the only thing disappointing is the arbitrary and sloppy way voters are choosing to vote. They're doing more damage to the image of the game, in my opinion, than Barry Bonds ever did.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 02:50 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

There's no reason to scream.

That's, of course, not the opinion I'm speaking of.

Swan Swan H
Jan 08 2013 02:54 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

And look at Pud. If that doesn't swear a fella off the needle, why, I don't know what would.

Frayed Knot
Jan 08 2013 02:54 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
The writers are waiting for someone to tell them what to do, or somehow do a retroactive blood test for substances on their naughty list.


This implies that the writers are voting as if a solid bloc all with the same reasoning.
But clearly they're not. Some are taking an absolutist 'Steroids = No' policy while others have stated specifically that they don't care. Most are somewhere in between deciding either they'll take each case individually or that their opinions are still evolving.

I may not always like the results but I don't have a problem with the system - and certainly I'm not going to be lobbying for reforms based on the (as yet speculative) outcome from a single year's ballot.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 08 2013 04:08 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Hey, we're having a live chat on the Hall vote tomorrow starting at 1 p.m. and running through the announcement. The debate will be in the comments following this post. We've assembled a pretty nifty panel, if I do say so my self. Includes some very familiar names, because I maintain high standards, of course.

[url]http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2013/01/will_jack_morris_make_the_hall.html

You'll need to create an account to be able to participate. Fear not, it's free, and takes just a moment.

Enjoy.

Gwreck
Jan 08 2013 05:02 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I agree too. Except that I want McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens to never get in. Anyone who has disgraced the game the way that they have should not be enshrined in a Hall of Fame.


What's your position on Gaylord Perry?

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2013 07:51 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Wunnerful.

I don't know how I feel about the roiders. I think they'll eventually get in and that won't upset me to the point where I threaten to walk away from the game or anything. I nonetheless enjoy Clemens getting his comeuppance. But I know that worm always has the potential to turn on Piazza.

I just really don't like Tim Raines on the outside and I think he and Biggio are unambiguously excellent candidates, and I'd hate to see their candidacies hurt by this confusion. Justice delayed is justice denied and all.

Ceetar
Jan 08 2013 08:54 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

playing..

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 08 2013 09:31 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

What, no Fu?

(Fantastic stuff. Yours, Cee?)

bmfc1
Jan 09 2013 05:03 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Nicely done Ceetar.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 09 2013 05:25 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Awesome!

Ceetar
Jan 09 2013 05:36 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
What, no Fu?

(Fantastic stuff. Yours, Cee?)


Yeah. photoshop is fun.

metirish
Jan 09 2013 06:46 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Where do the FOX exit polls have Piazza?

Frayed Knot
Jan 09 2013 06:48 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
Where do the FOX exit polls have Piazza?


I don't know, but Karl Rove is vehemently disputing Nate Silver's projections.

Ceetar
Jan 09 2013 06:51 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
Where do the FOX exit polls have Piazza?


Last projection I heard (though granted I think these were only 20-25% released) was maybe Biggio and that's it.

metirish
Jan 09 2013 06:59 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I saw some exit polls that Heyman linked on Twittter....projections for Piazza were at 60%- 65%.....the thinking is he will get in next year.......I mean, this is utter bullshit....so, if those numbers are close was he then punished because he played in that era but we'll let him in next year, but not punished like a McGwire?


Some of these writers must think they are the be all and end all of things.

Ceetar
Jan 09 2013 07:01 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Heyman wants to see what's in Piazza's book.

metirish
Jan 09 2013 07:22 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
Heyman wants to see what's in Piazza's book.



Ha!, saw that too.....it's a joke

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 07:24 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metsmarathon wrote:
pud galvin.

You've certainly got me there. Goat gonads. That's the sort of thing one wipes from one's memory..

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 09 2013 07:27 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Gwreck wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I agree too. Except that I want McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens to never get in. Anyone who has disgraced the game the way that they have should not be enshrined in a Hall of Fame.


What's your position on Gaylord Perry?


Even if he hadn't thrown a spitball (and he surely did) I don't know that his numbers would merit election. (As I've said before, my view is that the Hall should be very exclusive.) But I suppose my issue with Clemens and Bonds and McGwire is the disgrace they brought to the game, more than the cheating. These guys gave the game a huge black eye, and that should disqualify them. Their achievements can (and should) be recognized in Cooperstown's museum, but they should not get a plaque in the Hall.

metsmarathon
Jan 09 2013 07:28 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
metsmarathon wrote:
pud galvin.

You've certainly got me there. Goat gonads. That's the sort of thing one wipes from one's memory..


i suppose it may also be the sort of thing that can get seaed indelibly into one's memory...

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 09 2013 07:34 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

So, what time is the big announcement today?

metsmarathon
Jan 09 2013 07:42 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

baseball gave itself a black eye - it wasn't clemens or bonds or any player. clemens and bonds just helped wipe away what little concealer was left after the mac and sosa show.

the only reason anyone cares is because home runs are sexy. if the doping in baseball only led to an explosion in stolen bases, nobody would give a shit.

there are no other holy numbers in the american sporting scene beyond ruth's ruthian totals, not even aaron's aaronic sums.

nobody gives a shit about any number ever generated by a football player, season, or career, beyond, i suppose, the over/under. nobody gives a shit about any number ever generated by a basketball player, season, or career, though i suppose wilt's 100-point game may come close. hockey? soccer? track and field? any fucking other sport out there?

bonds and mac and sosa dared pass ruth - blow by him. and for that they are excoriated as putting black eye on baseball.

baseball has suffered many a black eye, and the pugilists have often found ther way into the hall.

ty cobb never gave baseball a black eye? and what of the black eye of segragation? the players and owners who supported and advocated and upheld that shit are in. drinking, womanizing, and self-destroying? hello, mickey mantle. amphetamines? if we must think of the kids who are forced to take steroids to compete, are we really all that cool with them taking fucking amphetamines just to stay in the game? please.

put them in the hall. they reflect and record the state of baseball. they are a product of baseball and of the times. they should not be considered ineligible, but rather they should be considered contextually.

SteveJRogers
Jan 09 2013 07:43 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

2pm on the MLB Network.

metsmarathon
Jan 09 2013 07:45 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

it also clearly helps that steroids made these guys ugly - bulbous, misshapen, over-inflated freaks with ominous veins burting forth from beneath their bad skin - and that the two leaders in teh steroidal clubhouse, bonds and clemens, are raging asshole fuckwads that nobody really likes.

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 07:50 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Under reported, but it's not like other professional sports leagues didn't practice segreagation and de facto bans on African Americans. Baseball's black eye in this regard was little different from society's.

Perhaps the same can in some sense be said of 'roids.

Gwreck
Jan 09 2013 07:53 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
But I suppose my issue with Clemens and Bonds and McGwire is the disgrace they brought to the game, more than the cheating.


Not to be unnecessarily argumentative but what's the difference?

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 09 2013 08:32 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'd say that Clemens, for example, was defiant when caught, and started suing people and acting like an asshole. If he had been contrite from the beginning, and apologized, then this would have been a much quieter story, and it would have faded quicker. Instead, he brought a great deal of negative attention to the sport and was part of a big ugly mess.

Personally, I don't mind at all when baseball gets a black eye. Since 1994, I get a perverse enjoyment out of it. But as I've said before, it's not the "Hall of Great Statistics", it's the "Hall of Fame" and there is a morality clause. Sure, they're part of the permanent record and I would be against having Bonds' home runs, for example, erased. And Barry's bat and uniform and stuff should definitely be displayed in the museum. But don't give him a plaque.

Valadius
Jan 09 2013 08:46 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

My one consolation on Piazza is that Yogi Berra only received 67% of the vote his first year, and all the writers loved him.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 09 2013 09:13 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

SteveJRogers wrote:
2pm on the MLB Network.


And on MLive, too! (I'll stop promoting our live chat now.)

SteveJRogers
Jan 09 2013 11:37 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Latest exit poll projection

Well, on the bright side I can make my cousin's wedding without annoying him all weekend that I'd (and he as well since he is a big Met/Piazza fan), rather be in Cooperstown that weekend.

Also it will be less annoying asking either of my bosses at the sites in my signature if I can get press credentials for all HOF weekend events after a year and change under my belt at those sites!

=;)

metirish
Jan 09 2013 11:48 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Exit polling

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/new ... ting_gizmo


70.1 - Biggio
60.3 - Piazza
59.8 - Raines
59.3 - J. Morris
59.3 - Bagwell
45.4 - Bonds
44.3 - Clemens

Ceetar
Jan 09 2013 11:54 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
Exit polling

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/new ... ting_gizmo


70.1 - Biggio
60.3 - Piazza
59.8 - Raines
59.3 - J. Morris
59.3 - Bagwell
45.4 - Bonds
44.3 - Clemens


Woah, someone voted for Bonds and not Clemens? how's that work?

metirish
Jan 09 2013 12:02 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

No one voted in...what a load of bolloxs

Gwreck
Jan 09 2013 12:02 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Nobody gets in this year.

metirish
Jan 09 2013 12:02 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Piazza 57.8%

Farmer Ted
Jan 09 2013 12:03 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Boo!!!!!!!!

Gwreck
Jan 09 2013 12:03 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
Woah, someone voted for Bonds and not Clemens? how's that work?


Clemens got 8 more votes than Bonds. Of course that makes no sense.

metirish
Jan 09 2013 12:04 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Clemens - 37.6%
Bonds - 36.2%

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 12:05 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I can kind of buy going in for Bonds and not Clemens, depending on how you buy the narrative about when they started dosing and how much value they derived.

I can also kind of buy going in for Clemens and not Bonds, depending on how you buy the theory of white racial superiority.

Gwreck
Jan 09 2013 12:06 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Craig Biggio 68.2%
Jack Morris 67.7%
Jeff Bagwell 59.6%
Mike Piazza 57.8%
Tim Raines 52.2%
Lee Smith 47.8%
Curt Schilling 38.8%
Roger Clemens 37.6%
Barry Bonds 36.2%
Edgar Martinez 35.9%

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 12:07 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

A story that'll get overlooked: Kenny Lofton is one and done.

Gwreck
Jan 09 2013 12:08 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Alan Trammell 33.6%
Larry Walker 21.6%
Fred McGriff 20.7%
Dale Murphy 18.6%
Mark McGwire 16.9%
Don Mattingly 13.2%
Sammy Sosa 12.5%
Rafael Palmeiro 8.8%
Bernie Williams 3.3%
Kenny Lofton 3.2%
Sandy Alomar Jr. 2.8%
Julio Franco 1.1%
David Wells 0.9%
Steve Finley 0.7%
Shawn Green 0.4%
Aaron Sele 0.2%

metsmarathon
Jan 09 2013 12:10 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

lofton being one and done sure does cut down on some future hof-worthiness debates, doesn't it?

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 12:13 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Mr. Aaron-Sele-Voter, step right up.

metirish
Jan 09 2013 12:15 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Mr. Aaron-Sele-Voter, step right up.



looks like he voted for Green too.

seawolf17
Jan 09 2013 12:16 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
A story that'll get overlooked: Kenny Lofton is one and done.

More importantly, so is Bernie Williams.

And there are a lot of outfielders who are more hallworthy than Lofton. Hell, maybe even Bernie Williams, and he isn't hallworthy either.

Valadius
Jan 09 2013 12:19 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

What a fucking joke.

Kenny Lofton joins the Lou Whitaker club of one-and-doners that should have stuck around longer. At least Bernie Williams drops off the ballot.

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 12:20 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

seawolf17 wrote:
And there are a lot of outfielders who are more hallworthy than Lofton. Hell, maybe even Bernie Williams....

BOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Get off the stage!!!!!!!

Mets – Willets Point
Jan 09 2013 12:22 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The upside of Mike Piazza not getting into the HOF is that the Mets won't be able to immediately trade his plaque for low-level prospects.

metsmarathon
Jan 09 2013 12:36 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

per bbref, lofton has the 7th most WAR for a player they have listed as a centerfielder, sitting just ever so slightly below the level of average among all hall of fame centerfielders. the only player better than him who is not in the hall is griffey.

bernie williams is down at 27th best cf.

looking at peak value of 7 best years, lofton is 10th best, with only griffey and andruw jones ahead of him among guys not in. again, he is just slightly below the average level of the 18 hall of fame centerfielders.

bernie is 23rd.

now, WAR includes offense and defense, so its easier to look at offense. and as a power hitter, and overall offensive player, williams takes hte slight edge, with a career 59.5 to 54.5 o(ffensive)WAR edge.

fwiw, fangraphs has hte difference between the two players at a similar level, but rates williams more highly offenseive, and therefore more critically defensively. either method you use, it's not close when you look at total career.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 09 2013 12:39 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

In related news, Piazza a first-rounder in the Hall of Bacne.

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 12:49 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Supposedly, Ken Rosenthal just went on MLB telebision and likened the "sabermetric community" to the Tea Party for "hijacking the system" with their "internet crusade" to keep out Jaques Morris.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 09 2013 12:50 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Well Morris shouldn't have taken all those steroids.

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 12:52 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I liked how thousands of tweets went out at once. Apparently "the sabermetric community" = "the unemployed community watching TV during the day."

Ceetar
Jan 09 2013 12:53 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Fangraphs has Lofton 14th on the WAR/CF list, .9 ahead of Carlos Beltran. (Bernie 35)

SteveJRogers
Jan 09 2013 01:18 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

It will never happen, but how about the Mets flipping the writers the bird and induct Piazza into their Hall and retire #31 this summer. Hell, do it on the weekend of July 19th, against the Phillies. First home series after the ASG and a week before The Hall's induction weekend (Mets in Washington that weekend).

Valadius
Jan 09 2013 01:28 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Thanks to these morons, next year's ballot gets even more ridiculous.

The following players, to me, should be sure-fire, first-ballot Hall of Famers:

Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas

Mike Mussina isn't a first-ballot guy to me but I would still vote for him, if I had room on my ballot. 20th in WAR for pitchers all-time, above the likes of Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan.

A veritable bumper crop of Mets that become eligible next year:

Moises Alou
Armando Benitez
Damion Easley
Paul Lo Duca
Trot Nixon
Hideo Nomo
Jay Payton
Kenny Rogers
Steve Trachsel

And THEN, in 2015, you've got three of the best pitchers of the last 25 years:

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz

Along with a couple of mashers and former Mets who will probably be on the ballot a while:

Carlos Delgado
Gary Sheffield

I think it may be time to propose eliminating a limit to the number of players one can select on their ballot.

seawolf17
Jan 09 2013 01:32 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

My ten for next year, as of right now: Bonds, Maddux, Bagwell, Piazza, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, McGwire, Clemens, and... Trammell, I guess? I'm not sure on my tenth. But I'm fully in on the Steroids Three now.

SteveJRogers
Jan 09 2013 01:32 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Valadius wrote:
Thanks to these morons, next year's ballot gets even more ridiculous.

The following players, to me, should be sure-fire, first-ballot Hall of Famers:

Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas

Mike Mussina isn't a first-ballot guy to me but I would still vote for him, if I had room on my ballot. 20th in WAR for pitchers all-time, above the likes of Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan.

A veritable bumper crop of Mets that become eligible next year:

Moises Alou
Armando Benitez
Damion Easley
Paul Lo Duca
Trot Nixon
Hideo Nomo
Jay Payton
Kenny Rogers
Steve Trachsel


Kind of a weird mish-mash of the 98-01 and 05-08 eras.

The complete list of next year's potential first timers:

Moises Alou, Armando Benitez, Sean Casey, Jose Cruz Jr., Ray Durham,
Damion Easley, Keith Foulke, Eric Gagne, Tom Glavine, Luis Gonzalez,
Scott Hatteberg, Jacque Jones, Todd Jones, Jeff Kent, Jon Lieber,
Esteban Loaiza, Paul Lo Duca, Greg Maddux, Matt Morris, Mike Mussina,
Trot Nixon, Hideo Nomo, Jay Payton, Kenny Rogers, Richie Sexson, J.T. Snow, Shannon Stewart,
Frank Thomas, Mike Timlin, Steve Trachsel, Jose Vidro

How about The Manchurian Brave going in with Piazza next year!

Nymr83
Jan 09 2013 02:01 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I really wouldn't mind being up there next summer for Piazza/Maddux.

Fuck the writers. Will cooperstown be a ghosttown that weekend now? Does the veterans comittee add anyone? Will there be any kind of ceremony?

SteveJRogers
Jan 09 2013 02:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Nymr83 wrote:
I really wouldn't mind being up there next summer for Piazza/Maddux.

Fuck the writers. Will cooperstown be a ghosttown that weekend now? Does the veterans comittee add anyone? Will there be any kind of ceremony?


The Vets added three guys from their "Pre-Intergration Era" vote, Deacon White a catcher in the 1880s, Hank O'Day an umpire from the early 1900s and Jacob Rupert, the Yankee owner during the Roaring 20s.

All dead at the present time. So is Tom Cheek, the Frick Award winning longtime voice of the Blue Jays.

Only the Sphinx award winner, Paul Hagen of MLB.com is living. Unless they pick a Buck O'Neil Award (for meritorious service to the game, started in 2008 and first posthumously given to O'Neil, Roland Hemond was the second recipient this past year) winner this year.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 09 2013 02:30 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

They also said they would honor some guys who never had a proper induction such as Lou Gehrig.

I'm sure the Chassholes will turn that into one last party for the old guard.

dinosaur jesus
Jan 09 2013 02:31 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

SteveJRogers wrote:
Nymr83 wrote:
I really wouldn't mind being up there next summer for Piazza/Maddux.

Fuck the writers. Will cooperstown be a ghosttown that weekend now? Does the veterans comittee add anyone? Will there be any kind of ceremony?


The Vets added three guys from their "Pre-Intergration Era" vote, Deacon White a catcher in the 1880s, Hank O'Day an umpire from the early 1900s and Jacob Rupert, the Yankee owner during the Roaring 20s.

All dead at the present time. So is Tom Cheek, the Frick Award winning longtime voice of the Blue Jays.

Only the Sphinx award winner, Paul Hagen of MLB.com is living. Unless they pick a Buck O'Neil Award (for meritorious service to the game, started in 2008 and first posthumously given to O'Neil, Roland Hemond was the second recipient this past year) winner this year.


All right, so O'Day, White, and Ruppert probably won't make it. But Hank's old friends Bill Klem and John McGraw might be there to say a few words on his behalf. I know they've got some good stories. And if we're lucky, Fred Merkle will rehash his boner. If Deacon White doesn't show (in addition to being dead, he's suspicious of airplanes, the world being flat, you know), Deacon Jones is probably available. And then afterwards everyone can hoist a Knickerbocker in memory of Colonel Ruppert. I'm in. Anyone else?

seawolf17
Jan 09 2013 02:50 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

dinosaur jesus wrote:
And if we're lucky, Fred Merkle will rehash his boner.

"Hey, if that's all it takes to get into the Hall..." -David Cone

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 03:11 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

seawolf17 wrote:
My ten for next year, as of right now: Bonds, Maddux, Bagwell, Piazza, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, McGwire, Clemens, and... Trammell, I guess? I'm not sure on my tenth. But I'm fully in on the Steroids Three now.

Steroids Three? I guess you mean Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire. But where does that leave Sosa and Palmiero? Each has a career that's pretty superlative if that question gets shelved. Possibly re-opens a door for Canseco too, if fully in is fully in.

Are you knocking off 20% (or so) for known juicers, which keeps those three over the line, but not the others? (I think this is a legit approach, by the way.)

Mets – Willets Point
Jan 09 2013 03:21 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Nobody elected to the Hall of Fame. He was a rightfielder, I believe.

Frayed Knot
Jan 09 2013 03:24 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Mets – Willets Point wrote:
Nobody elected to the Hall of Fame. He was a rightfielder, I believe.


Well, a lot of the writers obviously voted for 'I don't give a darn'.
He, of course, was the short-stop.

Ashie62
Jan 09 2013 04:14 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Could be the year for Gil Hodges then..

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 09 2013 04:23 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ashie62 wrote:
Could be the year for Gil Hodges then..


I thought this, too. If he's getting in at all, it's kind of now-or-never, isn't it?

SteveJRogers
Jan 09 2013 04:29 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ashie62 wrote:
Could be the year for Gil Hodges then..


VC class already announced. Not sure when the next Post War ballot will be, possibly next year.

The Second Spitter
Jan 09 2013 04:38 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Great to see confirmation that (rumoured) skin ailments are now a factor weighing against admission. But why didn't they at least vote Raines in? Did he have eczema or something?

Also it's funny how they conveniently ignored the rumors of Alomar's amphetamine use, after he was practically outed by Phillips.

lmao@ jay payton making the ballot.

SteveJRogers wrote:


All dead at the present time. So is Tom Cheek, the Frick Award winning longtime voice of the Blue Jays.


Recently read the tax case concerning Cheek. It was actually really interesting. The question of law was whether commentators are entertainers. I'm presently writing an article arguing the case was wrongly decided.

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 06:04 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I'm trying to figure out if I should conclude that a voting body this fragmented has no chance of giving Jeter a higher vote percentage than Tom Seaver, or they'll all coalesce around Jeter as a symbolic figure of redemption, just as Seaver shown just a bit brighter as a symbolic straight arrow in an age of yippies.

metirish
Jan 09 2013 07:15 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

For fucks sake, look at the thinking with this twat that writes for the Boston Globe

“I think based on what happened in baseball in the recent past, we are allowed to assume guilt before innocence,” said Tony Massarotti of The Boston Globe. “I think you would be naïve to think that anyone in baseball wasn’t doing something during that time.”

But that did not stop Massarotti from voting for both Clemens and Bonds. His reasoning was that Bonds and Clemens would have been Hall of Famers even if they did not use steroids.

“I don’t think Piazza or Jeff Bagwell are in the same category,” he said. “I don’t think they would have been good enough without help. I mean, Bagwell was a singles hitter in the minor leagues, and then his body changed and he was a home run hitter. Piazza was what, a 62nd-round draft pick?”



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/sport ... .html?_r=0

metsmarathon
Jan 09 2013 07:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

maddux should sail right in, no?

i've got the following JAWS+ ratings for the '14 ballot:

bonds 226
clemens 171
maddux 135
bagwell 120
piazza 119
thomas 110
schilling 106
trammell 106
raines 106
mussina 104
-----
glavine 103
walker 102
palmiero 100
e.martinez 99
mcgwire 96
biggio 94
sosa 88
l.gonzalez 79
kent 79
mcgriff 79
... and joe borowski 14

there are 13 players on next year's ballot who are at least as good as the average hall of famer at their nominal position. can we maybe elect some of them, please?

Edgy MD
Jan 09 2013 07:37 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

“I don’t think Piazza or Jeff Bagwell are in the same category,” he said. “I don’t think they would have been good enough without help. I mean, Bagwell was a singles hitter in the minor leagues, and then his body changed and he was a home run hitter. Piazza was what, a 62nd-round draft pick?”


Well, he only had two seasons, but the record suggests he was a pretty impressive doubles hitter. And, even then, he was a fantastic on-base guy.

Lots of guys don't really develop their homerun stroke until they're in the bigs. Guys like... Don Mattingly... Derek Jeter... .

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 09 2013 07:56 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

metirish wrote:
For fucks sake, look at the thinking with this twat that writes for the Boston Globe

... But that did not stop Massarotti from voting for both Clemens and Bonds. His reasoning was that Bonds and Clemens would have been Hall of Famers even if they did not use steroids....





http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/sport ... .html?_r=0


That's the Derek Jeter defense. Because Jeter is already a first ballot lock for the Hall, he's earned the right to take steroids and PED's openly for the rest of his career without fear of jeopardizing his HOF candidacy.

dinosaur jesus
Jan 09 2013 08:53 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
For fucks sake, look at the thinking with this twat that writes for the Boston Globe

... But that did not stop Massarotti from voting for both Clemens and Bonds. His reasoning was that Bonds and Clemens would have been Hall of Famers even if they did not use steroids....





http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/sport ... .html?_r=0


That's the Derek Jeter defense. Because Jeter is already a first ballot lock for the Hall, he's earned the right to take steroids and PED's openly for the rest of his career without fear of jeopardizing his HOF candidacy.


Does it work the same way if you already had back acne when you came into the league?

Ceetar
Jan 09 2013 08:59 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Derek's acne would probably be as a result of something of something sexually transmitted, or basketly transmitted, not just because of steroids.

Ashie62
Jan 09 2013 09:37 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Steroids schmeroids....its part of the era... base your vote on the compilation of work.

That will level the field for the douchnoozles that vote.

seawolf17
Jan 10 2013 07:19 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
My ten for next year, as of right now: Bonds, Maddux, Bagwell, Piazza, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, McGwire, Clemens, and... Trammell, I guess? I'm not sure on my tenth. But I'm fully in on the Steroids Three now.

Steroids Three? I guess you mean Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire. But where does that leave Sosa and Palmiero? Each has a career that's pretty superlative if that question gets shelved. Possibly re-opens a door for Canseco too, if fully in is fully in.

Are you knocking off 20% (or so) for known juicers, which keeps those three over the line, but not the others? (I think this is a legit approach, by the way.)

I'm going to have to come around on Sosa too, probably, but Palmeiro doesn't cross the "best players of his generation" line for me. He never really led the league in anything, wasn't a perennial all-star. He stayed healthy, played a lot of games, hit a lot of home runs, but other than that, was never a superstar.

Edgy MD
Jan 10 2013 07:58 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The funny thing is the fans are as split on the issue of what to do with the roiders as the writers, but the writers are being vilified, and they're probably wondering why. They didn't create the problem. Nobody has been clear about what to do.

But what they don't seem to realize is that all anybody asks of them is to use some internally consistent logic. But so many have become such a bunch of swaggering voice-of-the-fan caricatures that few of them even know how to sustain original thoughts any more.

Heyman in 2011:

Why Bonds belongs in the Hall
by Jon Heyman


Barry Bonds doesn't belong in jail. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.

In the court of law, Bonds probably got what he deserved, which was to be found guilty on obstruction charges but not perjury.
Lawyers I talked to were somewhat surprised Bonds wasn't convicted on the perjury count involving his denial about ever being injected by anyone other than a doctor because his former personal shopper Kathy Hoskins testified that she witnessed Bonds' oft-jailed trainer, Greg Anderson, inject him. But on the main question, which was whether Bonds lied about knowingly taking performance-enhancing drugs, the feds didn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bonds perjured himself.

The standards are high in a court of law, as they should be. For the Hall, it's a judgment call. Scoundrels and cheats are already in. So are foul-tempered jerks. Bonds may be all three. He is also one of the three greatest players I ever saw in his prime, along with Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson. A baseball Hall of Fame would be empty without Bonds.

While I do believe Bonds took steroids (whether it was knowingly or not doesn't much matter to me, though if I had to guess, I think he knows everything that goes in his body), I don't believe all steroid users should be excluded from the Hall of Fame. I'm not here to sit in moral judgment of another human being.

Of course I don't condone any usage, but I will point out Bonds' steroid taking was never flagged by MLB. He never failed a test (he passed the 2003 survey test) and he was never proven to have used after testing went into effect. I also believe the anecdotal evidence that suggests he didn't start using until 2000.

Unless a voter makes a moral judgment (and I won't judge voters who do that, either), the question voters need to ask, beyond whether a candidate ever used PEDs, is whether those drugs helped transform the player into a Hall of Famer. If there's a reasonable chance that player would have fallen short of the Hall without the extra help, I won't vote yes. I vote no on Mark McGwire, who I like much better than Bonds. While I believe McGwire's achievements are clearly Hall worthy (it's a copout to say they aren't), I have strong reason to suspect the drugs helped him reach those heights.

As for Bonds, I don't think anyone could reasonably make the case that he needed drugs to be a Hall of Famer. When Bonds signed with his hometown Giants for $43.75 million in December of 1992 to become the highest-paid player in baseball history he was already the best player in the game, and he earned that contract through only good genes (his dad, Bobby, was also an incredible combination of speed and power) and hard work. He had a small head at the time, and he maintained that, at least in the literal sense, for several years to come.

"Phenomenal ... Best player I ever saw,'' said the Rockies' Jason Giambi, another great ballplayer and admitted former steroid user, on Thursday.

Giambi might have personal reason to overlook the value of steroids in others, but almost anyone who saw Bonds could probably echo Giambi's comment about him.

The case has yet to be made that steroids enhanced Bonds anytime before 2000. Anecdotal evidence suggests that he started using sometime before that season. He was so annoyed to see lesser-lights such as Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa overtake him due to their drug regimens that Bonds decided to join the drug club. That's the story, and I believe it. Bonds knew he was the best, and he didn't want anyone stealing that title from him. So he started using.

It wasn't a good decision on his part. Although the 'roids enabled him to become the pseudo alltime home run king, it put a taint on everything he did in his career beginning in '00.

It also wasn't a good idea to stonewall prosecutors, to be evasive and obfuscate. The truth is always a good idea when the feds come calling. "Yeah, I'd say so,'' Giambi responded when asked whether he's happy to have told the truth and admitted his steroid use. "I went and did what I had to do. Even though it was eight years, it was nothing Earth shattering. It was things everyone already knew. I didn't know anything about Barry. I talked about my own usage and moved on. It was eight years, but I am done.''

Giambi is a natural truth teller. Bonds had more to lose. He was, at the time of his grand jury testimony, the single-season home run king and a real candidate for the Hall. That's no excuse, however, to stonewall the feds. Bonds probably got what he deserved from the government for it. He had to live through a gut-wrenching trial, and now he is a convicted felon.
Sentencing guidelines suggest a jail sentence of 15-to-21 months, but Judge Susan Ilston sentenced cyclist Tammy Thomas to six months of home confinement and track coach Trevor Graham to one year of home confinement after similar convictions.
Lawyers with some familiarity with the case told me yesterday that they don't believe the government will attempt to retry Bonds on the perjury charges, as they carry similar penalties. They came close to conviction on Bonds' claim that he wasn't injected by anyone but his doctor (according to one juror, that vote was 11-1 to convict on that count) and solid majorities voted to acquit (eight on one count, nine on the other) on the most relevant perjury counts. I've seen some lawyers quoted saying Ilston must show that the big fish doesn't get preferential treatment. But it's the opposite, I think. Already, they only went after Bonds in the first place because he's the big guy. There were plenty of baseball players who did steroids and plenty who were customers of BALCO. But he is one of two on trial. The feds have every right to prosecute one or some or none, but we can't forget the reason they went after Bonds in the first place is because he is who he is. Enough is enough now. Ilston has been reasonable before, and there's no reason to assume she'd opt to give Bonds jail time when she hasn't in the past. But if she does, well, it's fair to say he did do the crime.

Technically, because he wasn't convicted of lying, perhaps some Bonds supporter can try to make the case that the feds didn't prove he took steroids. And that may be so. But what proof did we need? As Giambi already said regarding himself, we already knew.

Even if the bigger body and head aren't quite proof that Bonds did steroids, his power totals late in his career are. Nobody improves their slugging numbers after 35 the way Bonds did. It just isn't humanly possible. We didn't need a long trial and millions of dollars and hours of manpower spent to tell us Bonds is a cheat.
It's fair to say that not all his numbers are legit. But enough of them are, in all great likelihood, to suggest he was Hall worthy before he became a steroid user. As I said, I believe he didn't start using until the 2000 season, by which point he had already:

• Won three NL MVP awards
• Won eight Gold Glove awards
• Hit 448 home runs
• Made eight All-Star appearances
• Had the highest WAR in baseball six times

It's probably easier just to promise not to vote any steroid users into the Hall. But I am not ready to wipe out an entire era. I can't prove that a majority of baseball players used steroids in that era, but the evidence suggests that many of the best players did. Just look at the MVP winners who have been linked to PEDs or have admitted using: Ken Caminiti, Sammy Sosa, Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez.

The Hall already inducted spitball pitcher Gaylord Perry without a stitch of uproar. Perry wrote the book (literally) on how to deface baseballs to get hitters out. A case can be made that Bonds' type of cheating is worse. But unlike Perry, I'd say he did it at a time when many were doing it, and he didn't start doing it until he already had a Hall of Fame career. I don't admire Bonds as anything other than a ballplayer. But that's what he was -- a ballplayer, probably the best I or many of us have ever seen.

Edgy MD
Jan 10 2013 11:46 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The original bacne thread, featuring a Hall of Fame post from dinojesus.

metirish
Jan 10 2013 11:51 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
The original bacne thread, featuring a Hall of Fame post from dinojesus.




Dying

I never saw the boils on Mickey Cochrane's butt cheeks, or the blackheads on Ernie Lombardi's nose. But I saw John Stearns go 3 for 3 and steal two bases with a zit on the inside of his thigh that would have crippled an ordinary man. I saw a whitehead on Jerry Grote's forehead that got so inflamed when he squeezed it, Tug McGraw asked him if he was a Hindu, and couldn't stop laughing even when Jerry punched him out. And I saw Ron Hodges catch a doubleheader with a case of shingles you could cover a house with. But these old eyes have never seen anything like the opposite field power and back acne that Mike Piazza brought to the table every night. The drugstore in Cooperstown had better stock up on Clearasil, because Mike is moving in to stay.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 10 2013 12:56 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Classic!

I miss the old player avatars.

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 10 2013 12:57 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

[url]http://www.suntimes.com/sports/17483473-419/morrissey-for-mlb-hall-of-fame-numbers-arent-the-only-thing-that-counts.html

Another horrible column.

The worst line:

"Nobody was voted into the Hall, the first time there has been a shutout since 1996. If you want to say that innocent bystanders such as Alan Trammell were victims of the Steroid Era this time around, go right ahead. Just don’t blame the voters. Blame all the people who took pills and injected themselves in the hopes of getting stronger, faster and richer. They’re the ones who cast shadows on everyone else in the game."

smg58
Jan 10 2013 01:01 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

We all knew that the steroids era would cause a major, major headache for Hall voters, and there is no way to avoid it that I can see. Even assuming that we could get each writer to apply some "internally consistent logic," that term would be defined differently by each writer. Plus, subjective impulses are simply harder to ignore when the objective criteria become murky; deep down and right or wrong, I wanted Piazza to get in yesterday, while I would sooner give the benefit of the doubt to trichinosis before I'd give it to Roger Clemens.

I certainly can't argue with anybody who wants more smoke to clear before voting for certain (or all) steroids-era players. I also can't argue with anybody who feels that Bonds and Clemens at the very least deserve to wait a ballot. The only two players I can confidently say I'd never vote for are Palmiero and Ramirez, because they continued to juice once the league started making an honest effort to eliminate steroids, and that's a character issue they don't share with everybody else. Beyond that, your subjective judgement call is as good as mine (and probably as flawed, too).

Edgy MD
Jan 10 2013 01:55 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

If consistent logic can be defined differently by different people, it's not consistent logic. The practice of logic is designed to defy subjectivity.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/17483473-419/morrissey-for-mlb-hall-of-fame-numbers-arent-the-only-thing-that-counts.html

Another horrible column.

I had no idea there was a Morrissey for MLB Hall of Fame movement. The Smiths were great but...

Vic Sage
Jan 10 2013 02:14 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Whether we or the voters like it or not, there is a character/sportsmanship criteria for HoF selection, and so voters are by definition asked to be moral arbiters of the game and watchdogs at the gate. Some voters ignore that obligation, some observe it only in exteme (in their view) situations, some just factor it in on a case-by-case basis, and some may use it to boost certain otherwise-borderline candidacies. But as a consequence, without any guidelines offered by the HoF, the BBWAA or MLB, the vote will necessarily be all over the board on the PEDs issue and only time will allow a consensus to emerge. So everybody needs to take a pill and calm down. Nobody has a constitutional right to be in the HoF, and they certainly don't have a right to be in TODAY as opposed to a year from now.

Also, as long as we are asking the writers covering the players to do so objectively while also being their moral arbiters, there will be an inevitable conflict with their journalistic integrity (such as it is), when they are covering stories they themselves are participating in. When people yell at the voters for their hypocrisy, because they are refusing to vote for guys they should have exposed in the first place, they are conflating these 2 very different roles. That the writers either didn't know or chose not to report about PEDs use while it was happening (for the most part), or their editors or publishers refused to run such stories, is an issue with them as professional journalists and investigative reporters. As HoF voters, on the other hand, they are still obligated to consider the character/sportsmanship issue, on whatever basis they individually choose to assess it, no matter how they covered the PEDs issue at the time. It's not "hypocrisy"... it's their obligation as voters.

Otherwise they should all recuse themselves and a new jury pool sworn in. Which would be ok too, since none of them would have survived a voir dire in the first place.

Ceetar
Jan 10 2013 02:19 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

It's not hypocrisy to say one year a guy should be in the hall of 'fame' and then not vote him in?

But it's not the hypocrisy that's the real issue. No one's laid down exactly what the integrity clause means, but you have to be pretty damn dense to think it means to only elect 'good guys' into a baseball inner circle.

And that's well beyond the crap arguments used to not vote for Piazza or Bagwell.

The integrity clause is being used as an excuse for voters to play favorites and support their own personal biases.

Zvon
Jan 10 2013 02:22 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Kinda surprised by the no-one-in thing. Figured Piazza was a good bet. Lumping him in with the roiders is unfair. We all know that if Piazza was doing steroids Clemens would have been walking around with half a bat up his ass since 2000.

SteveJRogers
Jan 10 2013 02:32 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
The integrity clause is being used as an excuse for voters to play favorites and support their own personal biases.


Just thought of something, there is more hard evidence that Mariano Rivera is guilty of negligent homicide/manslaughter than there is for Piazza as a PED user. Love to see if anyone uses THAT against Saint Mo when he comes up.

There is precedence, people didn't vote for Alomar based on the spiting incident, I'm sure the Roseboro incident is why Juan Marichal isn't a first ballot HOFer and drug related issues apparently kept Fergie Jenkins and Orlando Cepeda on the ballot longer than they probably should have.

Ceetar
Jan 10 2013 02:34 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

SteveJRogers wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
The integrity clause is being used as an excuse for voters to play favorites and support their own personal biases.


Just thought of something, there is more hard evidence that Mariano Rivera is guilty of negligent homicide/manslaughter than there is for Piazza as a PED user. Love to see if anyone uses THAT against Saint Mo when he comes up.

There is precedence, people didn't vote for Alomar based on the spiting incident, I'm sure the Roseboro incident is why Juan Marichal isn't a first ballot HOFer and drug related issues apparently kept Fergie Jenkins and Orlando Cepeda on the ballot longer than they probably should have.


I mean I'd be surprised if a guy like Rivera didn't use something else anyway, but yeah no one cares about the other integrity stuff. drunk drivers, etc.

Vic Sage
Jan 10 2013 02:43 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

It's not hypocrisy to say one year a guy should be in the hall of 'fame' and then not vote him in?


no, because guys can change their mind over time. but that's not what i was talking about anyway, and you know that. I'm talking about the brickbats hurled their way (including in this thread) because they didn't report on the PEDs while it was happening, but are now holding it against players in HoF voting. and i repeat: that's not "hypocrisy". That's doing 2 different jobs. whether they're doing either of those jobs WELL or not is another matter. But that's about competence.

But it's not the hypocrisy that's the real issue. No one's laid down exactly what the integrity clause means, but you have to be pretty damn dense to think it means to only elect 'good guys' into a baseball inner circle.


there's a world of difference between "only electing good guys" and choosing not to vote for cheaters and felons.

And that's well beyond the crap arguments used to not vote for Piazza or Bagwell.


writers have their suspicions about those guys. You may not credit their suspicions; neither might I. But this not a courtroom and they have no requirement to use only evidence sufficient for legal standards; their reasons can be entirely their own.

The integrity clause is being used as an excuse for voters to play favorites and support their own personal biases.


just as ignoring the clause by some voters supports THEIR biases. This entire process is a game of favorites and personal biases. If the HoF didn't want it not to be, they could vote to change the mechanism tomorrow, using blue ribbon panels, quantitative analyses and other more objective mechanisms. But as of now, this is the system, and blaming the voters because, in the aggregate, they came to a different decision than you would, is fine i guess, but not very meaningful.

Ceetar
Jan 10 2013 02:54 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

yes, no one is arguing that this isn't the system, that doesn't make it mind-numbingly stupid.

The incompetence of the writers in either of said jobs is only fuel to the 'fix it' fire and supports the idea that the current system is screwed up.

Without twists of logic there's no solid reason why some of these guys aren't Hall of Famers. They're supposed to be constructing a hall of players in the top echelon of the game. Where you draw the line is a worthy debate, i.e. why Jack Morris probably shouldn't get in, but no one's arguing that it show be as low as the top 20 players in history or anything like that, and even if they were they're still wrong this year to elect no one.

If after all this time you still can't vote for a guy like Piazza or Bagwell because "you suspect" then the game is still beyond broken (if you consider PEDs broken anyway). But MLB has moved on. No one's erasing the years that comprise the "steroid era" if they could even nail down the start and end of it, and then there is the amphetamines issue, which are banned now but clearly weren't then. So what to do about that? This is their job as voters, and if they don't have an answer for it, I'm not sure what to tell them. Baseball marches on, and we can't just stick our heads in the sand and suspend the Hall until someone figures it out to the comfort of all.

Ashie62
Jan 10 2013 06:49 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Gonna have to expand the ballot to 20 to catch up..

The BBWAA made their point, now rollem in...

metsguyinmichigan
Jan 10 2013 06:55 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The idea of sportswriters being the moral arbiters of anything is pretty funny. There's a group that needs to police itself.

Examples: Ian O'Connor covering Derek Jeter and singing his praises while writing a book with or about Derek Jeter. Or, the mountain of swag some of these guys get. (I've had friends who covered the Stanley Cup and come back with watches, jackets, back packs... The press room is a massive freebie zone, and that's not even counting the food.) Or, the incredible use of unnamed sources without accountability.

Edgy MD
Jan 10 2013 07:49 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Well, if it were really funny, it would have been funny a long time ago, and then not funny anymore, and then funny only in the sense that it's not funny, and then maybe ironically funny, or worthy of a brief smile whenever anybody thought of how funny it used to be, wondering about those innocent times when all it took to break up the boys in the frat house was Gracie Allen playing dumb on the radio, or sportswriters as moral arbiters.

And then maybe the Cohen brothers would make a movie about that time, of an America we knew existed, but is somehow unrecognizable when we are dropped into it --- with the Pullman porters, and the evening wear with those ridiculous shirt fronts, and the moral arbiter sportswriters, and the people who couldn't stop laughing about it. I'm thinking Adrian Brody and Kate Bosworth, or one of those chicks.

Really, I'm not sure why it should be surprising that they are acting in that role. They're asked to do it to an extent, and they've done it before. Like I said, I just don't like the inconsistent logic, and the abdicating of the responsibility to distinguish a little more seriously.

Kong76
Jan 10 2013 08:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Something will come out about Jeter one day. He flew above/
below the radar, had the better chemists!! I live for that day.

Ceetar
Jan 10 2013 08:18 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Kong76 wrote:
Something will come out about Jeter one day. He flew above
the radar, had the better chemists!! I live for that day.


He's willing to fake being hit by a pitch to help his team but isn't willing to take what nearly all his teammates are taking to heal faster, workout harder? That's hard for me to believe.

Edgy MD
Jan 10 2013 08:57 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Piazza's co-author has come out and said that his book will explicitly deny steroid use. Guess the notion of holding a vote until he comes clean in an autobiography isn't going to work.

Seriously, though, how is waiting until his autobiography comes out in any way getting to the bottom of the story?

Whether or not it clears up the rumors of PED usage, it'll totally put the gay thing to bed.

Kong76
Jan 10 2013 09:21 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

How will it tell us that?

Edgy MD
Jan 10 2013 09:31 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

I dunno, that picture just promises me so much.

Mets – Willets Point
Jan 10 2013 09:43 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

What about his acting stint as the villain in Teen Wolf?

Mets – Willets Point
Jan 10 2013 09:48 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
Kong76 wrote:
Something will come out about Jeter one day. He flew above
the radar, had the better chemists!! I live for that day.


He's willing to fake being hit by a pitch to help his team but isn't willing to take what nearly all his teammates are taking to heal faster, workout harder? That's hard for me to believe.


Seeing that PED use was widespread throughout baseball, and especially a large number of his teammates have been identified as users, it is hard to believe that Jeter spent his entire career clean as his hagiographers wish us to believe. But even if he somehow never touched the stuff, he still benefited. Roiders were on base when he came to bat causing the pitchers change to change their approach, roiders protected him in the lineup, roiders wore down starters and let Jeter feast on weak relief pitchers. And I don't recall Jeter ever calling out any of the roiders on his team. He fully accepted the benefits to his own performance and the team's success. These things are obviouslytrue of every player in baseball, clean or roided full tilt, but somehow we only hear about Jeter being the good guy.

Frayed Knot
Jan 10 2013 10:04 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

That's been the problem with this whole process of fans/media/whoever trying to separate who did with who didn't; folks tend to pick guys who (either way) reinforce their own predetermined views.

A large chunk of the reason the Yanx re-signed ARod to the size and the length of the contract they did was that everyone knew he was clean and therefore was the perfect person to re-take the career HR record from that cad Bonds and rightfully return it to one of the good guys (and, for Yanqui fans, bring the record back to the land of pinstripes where it belongs). But, of course, that fantasy lasted about a year before Centaur-boy's name got leaked and so parts of America then turned their lonely eyes to Pujols to play the part of the next white knight, as if we know anymore about him than we know about anyone else in MLB.

We have no proof that Jeter did anything but we have no proof otherwise either. Those writers and fans who claim to KNOW Jeter to be clean are that way because they WANT Jeter to be clean.

Edgy MD
Jan 10 2013 10:21 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Mets – Willets Point wrote:
What about his acting stint as the villain in Teen Wolf?

Gwreck
Jan 10 2013 10:39 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
t'll totally put the gay thing to bed.


I thought marrying the Playboy model and having kids with her did that already.

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 11 2013 04:33 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Well, he wouldn't be the first gay guy to have married a woman and had kids.

Edgy MD
Jan 11 2013 07:48 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread



Pretty compelling PED article from the magic year of 1969.

Frayed Knot
Jan 11 2013 07:55 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Even NATIONAL LAMPOON chimed in with a warning around that same era so it's tough to claim we weren't aware.

Farmer Ted
Jan 11 2013 01:07 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

The Sports Xchange
2:01 p.m. EST, January 11, 2013

When Mike Piazza's autobiography "Long Shot" is released in February, the former major-league catcher will deny using performance-enhancing drugs during his career.

Suspicions of steroid use among several prominent players surrounded the Baseball Hall of Fame vote this week. Along with Piazza, players who fell short in their first year of eligibility were pitcher Roger Clemens and slugger Barry Bonds.

Piazza received 58 percent of the vote, which was below the required 75 percent for election.

The 12-time All-Star finished his career with 427 home runs and a .308 batting average in 16 seasons. Despite being a 62nd-round draft pick, Piazza went on to become one of the top hitting catchers of all time.

"Anybody who's looking for Mike's answer to PED questions will find it (in the book)," veteran sports reporter and author Lonnie Wheeler said in an interview with Newsday. "I believe he's clean."

Wheeler also said Piazza in his book will discuss PED use in baseball.

Given the climate of controversy with the candidates this year, Piazza wasn't disappointed about being left out of Cooperstown in his first year of eligibility, Wheeler said.

"He was laughing about it," Wheeler told Newsday. "I think he understood that the whole situation was so murky and complicated, and with nobody getting elected, that it was just an unpredictable scenario that he got caught up in. Frankly, he knew it was coming.

"I think, like I did, that he felt that he deserved it and was optimistic that he would get in and saw no reason why he shouldn't."

Ceetar
Jan 11 2013 01:16 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

two ways it goes I guess, he apologizes for his fellow teammates "everyone was doing it" but declares he wasn't which I don't think would go over well, or

he notes it was all over, declares it evil, and lauds baseball for fixing it, which paints him as the hero in the writers eyes and they elect him next year.

curious though, if he'll throw anyone under the bus.

G-Fafif
Jan 11 2013 01:58 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

"We got a 68, and I'm going to go back and study a little harder and hopefully get a 75 next year."
--Craig Biggio

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 11 2013 04:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:


Pretty compelling PED article from the magic year of 1969.


That issue was among the very first SI's I ever leafed through. The needle on that cover gave me the godamn creeps.

Mets – Willets Point
Jan 11 2013 08:16 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:


Pretty compelling PED article from the magic year of 1969.

Painkillers? Was there a scourge of acetaminophen abuse marring the game?

Ceetar
Jan 11 2013 08:30 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Mets – Willets Point wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:


Pretty compelling PED article from the magic year of 1969.

Painkillers? Was there a scourge of acetaminophen abuse marring the game?


Pretty tame compared to Toradol I imagine, but light years better than the 'put some ice on it' methods years before that.

Edgy MD
Jan 11 2013 10:33 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Read the article, man. People be dying.

SteveJRogers
Jan 19 2013 11:32 AM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Ceetar wrote:
two ways it goes I guess, he apologizes for his fellow teammates "everyone was doing it" but declares he wasn't which I don't think would go over well, or

he notes it was all over, declares it evil, and lauds baseball for fixing it, which paints him as the hero in the writers eyes and they elect him next year.

curious though, if he'll throw anyone under the bus.


FWIW, I think Lance Armstrong pretty much did in ANYONE from the Steroid Era getting in on the Writers Ballot now.

Because, even if they continue the Piazza approach, they'll still say "look at that creep Armstrong. All those passed tests, all those lawsuits, etc."

Even though Piazza's laid back approach is probably preferable, as opposed to what certain media types say that they'd do the obnoxious things that Armstrong and Clemens have done, its the fact that they feel so strongly about being lied to that I don't think anyone is getting in, not for a long while.

Oh FUCK! Does this mean that MFY Andy Pettitte will be the only one from this "era" making the Hall because he was forced to come clean in a Court of Law?

Christ, guy wasn't even THE GUY on those Yankee postseason teams. The guy is a glorified Ron Darling or Jerry Koosman (though I have heard someone make a HOF case for Kooz based on his career stats, besides win total, being comparable to The Manchurian Brave).

Edgy MD
Jan 19 2013 01:17 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Players from the steroid era will certainly make (and indeed, have made) it into the Hall of Fame via the writers' ballot.

SteveJRogers
Jan 19 2013 01:35 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

Edgy MD wrote:
Players from the steroid era will certainly make (and indeed, have made) it into the Hall of Fame via the writers' ballot.


I agree, just trying to get into heads of the morons who leave Piazza and Bagwell off due to meer suspicions.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 19 2013 04:13 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

SteveJRogers wrote:
FWIW, I think Lance Armstrong pretty much did in ANYONE from the Steroid Era getting in on the Writers Ballot now.

Because, even if they continue the Piazza approach, they'll still say "look at that creep Armstrong. All those passed tests, all those lawsuits, etc."


Well, with Armstrong, he didn't necessarily pass tests... he "passed tests" (most often via pressuring/extorting/making sizable donations to officials and organizations controlling said tests).

It's a different thing entirely. Not that THAT fact is germane-- people will still see it and think what they are inclined to think; I just think that those folk are likely "no" voters on steroid-rumor guys anyway.

metsmarathon
Jan 19 2013 07:09 PM
Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

also lance was good enough and smart enough (and goshdarnit people like him!) to not allow himself to get tested when he would have failed it.