Master Index of Archived Threads
2013 HOF In Balloting Thread
SteveJRogers Nov 27 2012 03:03 PM |
It's that time again!
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Nymr83 Nov 27 2012 03:10 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
HOF balloting has become a joke with the "steroid guys.". After the farce was extended to Bagwell for suspected use, its safe to assume that the new eligibility standard is "doesn't look too strong," I don't feel good about Piazza's chances with Bagwell missing.
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Nymr83 Nov 27 2012 03:29 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Try keeping this out of the Hall, douchebag writers!
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Ceetar Nov 27 2012 03:37 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
On the other hand, maybe Piazza can be the 'good guy' in comparison to Bonds and Clemens. Or that's what they're saving Bagwell for..
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Edgy MD Nov 27 2012 03:43 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Bagwell did it all as just another power-hitting firstbaseman. That he was better than most and played half his career in the Astrodome is worth considering, but more likely his luster is dimmed by playing in the shadow of the Frank Thomases and Mark McGwires and Andres Gallaragas and Rafael Palmeiros, the roidy smell of many of whom sticks to the others.
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Nymr83 Nov 27 2012 03:51 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I think Bagwell's career easily surpasses that of Galaragga and is ahead of McGwire and Palmiero while being slightly behind Thomas. But I do get your point.
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Vic Sage Nov 27 2012 04:07 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread Edited 6 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2012 02:42 PM |
[revised 11/30/12]
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Gwreck Nov 27 2012 04:15 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I like that ballot, except I would put McGwire into the solid "yes" category. 11th on the career list in Adjusted OPS? Plus all the counting stats, etc. Compare to Sosa being 190th on that same list.
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SteveJRogers Nov 27 2012 04:21 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Would not be shocked if Wells got enough support based on his "clutch" performances and perceived "fun guy to have a beer with" schtick from voters who didn't have any interaction with him or care about all the "hearsay" stories to stick around at least another year though.
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Frayed Knot Nov 27 2012 05:24 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
My biggest Yeses would go to Piazza, Biggio & Raines.
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seawolf17 Nov 27 2012 06:19 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Yes:
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 27 2012 07:22 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Mike Piazza
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seawolf17 Nov 27 2012 07:35 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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See, that's just it. That's one of my internal criteria for my HoF votes, which is why I'm going to have to bend on Bonds and McGwire at some point. (But not Clemens.)
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Fman99 Nov 27 2012 07:37 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Yes:
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 27 2012 07:46 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Batch
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Vic Sage Nov 27 2012 09:14 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
the thing about the PEDs brigade is that Bonds and Clemens were clearly HOFers before their late career Roid-induced surges, whereas i think the HOF case for McGwire, Sosa and Palmiero relies primarily on their Roid years.
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MFS62 Nov 27 2012 09:54 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2012 08:22 AM |
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This. OE: Add Trammell to my list of ins. Later
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metsguyinmichigan Nov 28 2012 05:05 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I fear that the window for deserving people like Raines and Trammell has closed with all the studly and controversial people on ballot. Their best chances were when there were fewer no-brainers and some similar-level players -- Larkin, Blyleven -- were getting in.
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Ceetar Nov 28 2012 06:48 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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before the time we _think_ they started PEDs anyway. They were probably using amphetamines and other stuff before that too, just like everyone else. Of course we don't even know that it helped either.
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Edgy MD Nov 28 2012 07:29 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Yeah, I agree, but that requires actual analysis. In the class picture, he's part of a crowd.
Hater.
A Hall of Fame ballot or an illicit drug order?
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bmfc1 Nov 28 2012 11:13 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
As long as Piazza is in and Clemens is not, I won't complain.
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Nymr83 Nov 28 2012 01:51 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
The steroid guys are soon going to leave a huge backlog on the ballot to the point that the guys who deserve to stick around for further discussion (Mattingly, Morris, Martinez, etc) may soon drop off.
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Benjamin Grimm Nov 28 2012 01:55 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I think I'm in the minority here, but I see a distinction between the Hall and the Museum. Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe, Barry Bonds, etc. can have their stuff in the museum. But I do think that infamy (the opposite of Fame) should keep somebody out of the Hall. So I'd be quite happy if Clemens, Bonds, and McGwire never got inducted into the Hall.
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Edgy MD Nov 28 2012 02:03 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I think that it's kind of hypocritical of the game to feature artifacts from people they have banned for life.
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Frayed Knot Nov 28 2012 02:13 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Sad maybe, but also part of the game's history.
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Valadius Nov 28 2012 02:57 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
My ballot:
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Edgy MD Nov 28 2012 03:01 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Valadius.
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Frayed Knot Nov 28 2012 03:11 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Or maybe, just maybe mind you, they don't think that there are ten good choices each year.
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Valadius Nov 28 2012 03:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
For some that is clearly the case. But I've read enough "ballot explanations" where the voter writes "I never vote more than two guys because..." to know that this can have an effect.
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Edgy MD Nov 28 2012 03:36 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Can you cite some?
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Valadius Nov 28 2012 04:05 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'll have to look. It's not like I bookmarked them.
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Frayed Knot Nov 28 2012 04:08 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Career WAR (acc to BB-Ref)
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metsguyinmichigan Nov 28 2012 04:10 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Jay Jaffe on SI:
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TheOldMole Nov 28 2012 04:27 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
And let's not forget the ever-unconscionable snub to Marvin Miller.
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Frayed Knot Nov 28 2012 04:47 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Via rumors, yeah. But that's how the majority of these guys are connected.
But a writer not voting for ten guys isn't the same as saying he did so because he put some kind of artificial (sub-10) numerical limit on his ballot.
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Ceetar Nov 28 2012 04:49 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'm both tickled and disturbed that I'm getting old enough to actually look at candidates and remember most/many of their careers and actually feel somewhat qualified to actually decide if I think they're worthy.
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Mets – Willets Point Nov 28 2012 05:36 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 28 2012 09:30 PM |
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Bonds and Clemens had legal action taken against them, and Sosa tested positive in 2003, that's more than rumors.
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metsmarathon Nov 28 2012 06:41 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
pretty sure piazza admitted to trying andro or something in either college or the minors and said he didn't like it or it didn't help and he stopped.
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Benjamin Grimm Nov 28 2012 07:13 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I'm on the other end of that. Some of these guys played most of their careers after I had stopped paying close attention.
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Nymr83 Nov 28 2012 07:40 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Wasn't Andro, at that time, a legal product available over-the-counter in the U.S. And not banned by baseball?
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batmagadanleadoff Nov 29 2012 08:55 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/s ... z2DcvsokLD ____________________________________________ On Baseball Hall of Fame Voters Confront the Steroid Era and Its Questions By TYLER KEPNER Published: November 27, 2012 excerpt:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/28/sport ... oters.html
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Vic Sage Nov 29 2012 09:00 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 02 2012 09:31 PM |
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i believe that's correct. My threshold is, unless you're a worse human being than ty cobb, you are not disqualified for HOF consideration. put them all in and let god sort them out, says I. some of baseball's story is grand and some sordid, but its all part of the story. This Orwellian instinct among baseball writers to whitewash the history of the game is grotesque, especially considering they chose to ignore it while it was happening. good column about the hypocrisy of sports writers on this issue: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2012/11/29/ ... ?ref=yahoo
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 09:03 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Yeah, but there's being a bad human (and Cobb isn't the game's, or the Hall of Fame's, worst) and there's cheating at the game (which, I think the record shows, Cobb did too, if not at the same level as some others).
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Ceetar Nov 29 2012 09:08 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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and maybe, just maybe, consider using actual evidence?
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 09:14 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Let's not get overbroad, here. Jeff Bagwell didn't get to 500 homers or 3000 (or even 2500) hits. He's a great candidate in my mind and a better candidate than some who did reach those milestones.
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Mets – Willets Point Nov 29 2012 09:18 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'd vote for:
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Ceetar Nov 29 2012 09:18 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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time? they have 5 years. 6 now. voters have indeed come out and said it's basically their own personal suspicions that he took something that is why they're keeping him out. He looks like a Hall of Famer to me and I've ready plenty of convincing cases for him and none against him (he didn't get 500 homers or 2500 hits isn't one). Yeah, he'll eventually get in, but that doesn't mean he's not being snubbed.
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metsmarathon Nov 29 2012 09:52 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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yes. and it was legal in america and in baseball in 1998, too. now, that legality was through a loophole/oversight built into the law, but it was still legal and allowed and pervasive. in 1997 it was banned by hte olympics, and in 2004 its sale in the us was banned, and it was officially made a controlled substance, making it "illegal". now, it's certainly fair to argue that it's use prior to 1997 and certainly 2004 was at best gray in a world of black and white, but to claim that anyone who so much as touched the stuff prior to that time (and even after) is a dirty rotten awful cheater who should never ever never be allowed enshrinement into the hall. in baseball today, many first base coaches carry stopwatches to assist baserunners in timing hte pitchers' delivery. carlos beltran for one avails himself of this knowledge to great success. it could well be argued that this is a gray area beyond the pure pastoral beginnings of the sport, and it's certainly envisionable that a future rule change may make such an activity illegal. since carlos beltran were using this crack in the rule of the game for his statistical benefit, would that make him a retroactive cheater who should be prohibited from enshrinement or due recognition of his accomplishments? what of those players who gain an advantage by smearing the back line of hte batters box? are they not violating a rule and exisitng in the gray inbetween? should this be held against tehm as well?
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 09:56 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Yeah, time. Cream rises to the top and oil separates itself from water at different rates depending on volume and concentration. It's a tough job drawing distinctions, made tougher by the huge amount of superlative performances in the era. If you want to take issue with a particular voter and his explicit explanation for his non-vote, please cite it and do so. But that person wouldn't speak for all the others who elected not to vote for him, and certainly not for the majority who did.
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Ceetar Nov 29 2012 10:16 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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no? rumors spread like wildfire and these guys respect each other. When one person writes he thinks Bagwell did something, some others might waver and think to themselves "hmm, makes sense at least.." It's hardly just one or two guys who have engaged in this holier than thou judgement on baseball players and PEDs. There are columns and columns written up already about specific voters. Just google "I'm not voting for Bagwell" if you haven't already gotten the gist of it.
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 10:26 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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No.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 29 2012 11:10 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I get your point, but there ARE more than a few. I've read more "he should wait because of the accusations" or "no cheaters" justifications on him than "he wasn't THAT good a player" ones.
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 11:28 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'm sure there are several.
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 01:05 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
By the way, big fat vote for Schilling.
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Ceetar Nov 29 2012 01:28 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I don't know if it's big and fat, but yeah. Haven't dug into numbers as much with him. his ERA seems a little high, but it does look like that's inflated a little around the beginning/end of his career. Quite a few impressive years and dominating years. 300 Ks twice. Damn good postseason numbers. Damn, 15 complete games, 300 Ks, led the lead in innings pitched with 268.2 and not even a singular Cy Young vote? he's a damn Phillie though.
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 01:32 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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He was a Phillie before they were the damn Phillies, and that robbed him of a more than a few numbers in the win column, I think.
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Ceetar Nov 29 2012 01:36 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I don't hate him because he was a Philly, just upset they'd get another hat is all. That was actually Ruben Amaro Jr's last year in the majors. Yeah, I imagine wins and ERA is what hurt him, pre-moneyball revolution or whatever. Hoffman probably shouldn't have gotten that many votes as a reliever either, and then there were the Randy Johnson votes despite the league switch. Man, '98 was a crazy year wasn't it? pitching wise too.
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Mets – Willets Point Nov 29 2012 01:38 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I was voting for Schilling before it was cool.
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Swan Swan H Nov 29 2012 01:42 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Here's the complete list of pitchers in MLB history with 3,150+ strikeouts and fewer than 761 walks: Pedro Martinez.
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 01:46 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Cool things about Curt Schilling:
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Ceetar Nov 29 2012 01:52 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Trachsel was 0-1 with a 14.54 ERA across two starts in the postseason.
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 02:03 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Yes, I'm imagining an alternative scenario, where Curt Schilling's post-season record becomes adhered to Steve Trachsel's pedestrian regular season record. I'd vote for that guy.
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MFS62 Nov 29 2012 02:04 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Bloody-well. Later
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metsmarathon Nov 29 2012 02:08 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
schilling is sneaky good. you don't necessarily think of him as a hall of famer right off hte bat, but that's because, though he was around for a while to start his career, he took a bit to get off hte ground, even serving as a closer for a bit there.
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Edgy MD Nov 29 2012 02:14 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Lofton had a great first half of his career. He's got the same dimmed bulb effect that Raines and Griffey had --- our last eight years or so of memories were of a guy that was utterly human.
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metsmarathon Nov 29 2012 02:15 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
probably, but accounting for postseason numbers isn't stupid-easy, and i'm all about stupid.
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Mets – Willets Point Nov 29 2012 02:40 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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All this and he's the man who said "When you use words like 'mystique' and 'aura,' those are names of night club dancers. Those are not things we concern ourselves with on a ballfield," at the height of the Yankees feeling of entitlement and infallibility. And don't forget (already enshrined in the Hall):
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Valadius Nov 29 2012 10:12 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Schilling had some INSANE BB/9 numbers, especially while he was tag-teaming with Randy Johnson in Arizona.
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metsguyinmichigan Nov 30 2012 04:44 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Why would you think Schilling would go in as a Phillie? Championships with Arizona and Boston. I bet the Hall would love to get a Diamondback cap in there to have more teams represented.
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Ceetar Nov 30 2012 05:30 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I think the overwhelming time would trump it.
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Nymr83 Nov 30 2012 01:32 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Schilling should go in with a crossed-out yankee hat! I hope voters have gotten smarter about the (non) value of W's and he doesn't wait as long as Blyleven did.
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Vic Sage Nov 30 2012 02:44 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Edgy convinced me about Schilling last year, but i'd forgotten. I'll revise my ballot accordingly.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 30 2012 03:37 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Same. Forgot about that.
One could credibly argue that, drugs aside, he's almost more Clemens than Clemens.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 30 2012 04:31 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I overlooked Schilling too but he deserves a vote.
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Valadius Dec 03 2012 01:34 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Vets' Committee has voted in MFYs owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day, and 19th-century barehanded catcher Deacon White.
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Edgy MD Dec 03 2012 01:42 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Deacon White looks like a guy who made a killing in dry goods.
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MFS62 Dec 03 2012 09:25 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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They were selected by the "pre-integration" part of the veteran's committee. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ruppert-od ... --mlb.html Never knew there was such a thing. What year was that group formed? Later
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Edgy MD Dec 04 2012 07:23 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Hall of famer Deacon White wants to know if you want more starch for your shirt.
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Mets – Willets Point Dec 04 2012 07:25 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Look at this fucking hipster.
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Benjamin Grimm Dec 04 2012 07:26 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'm guessing that Deacon White is dead at the present time?
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metsmarathon Dec 04 2012 07:28 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
he looks like a fun guy to be around.
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Mets – Willets Point Dec 04 2012 07:30 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I guess they need to make sure there's enough white guys in the HOF.
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Frayed Knot Dec 04 2012 07:31 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Looks like he was dead at the time those pictures were taken. Any relation to Deacon Blues? [youtube]2A0wGO3c2T8[/youtube]
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seawolf17 Dec 04 2012 07:53 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Someone tell him that Movember is over.
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SteveJRogers Dec 04 2012 08:02 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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The Veterans Commitee has been tasked with different groupings of canididates to vote for each winter now. This one, the Modern Era was last year, and there is one for modern non-playing personel as well. I guess its a nicer way of saying "19th Century" or something.
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Vic Sage Dec 04 2012 09:41 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Except that the "pre-integration" era went halfway through the 20th century too. And what kind of Orwellian bullshit word is that anyway? It's not the "pre-integration" era; it's the era of "segregation". Stop putting smiley faces on our ugly past.
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MFS62 Dec 04 2012 09:53 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Bingo. Also- While Rupert sold the Yankees long before baseball was (re)integrated, they were the next to last team to integrate. His selection by that sub-committee reminded me of that fact. Later
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Edgy MD Dec 04 2012 10:16 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
That's a silly angle to play if it were true, and it's not.
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Edgy MD Dec 18 2012 09:20 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Maybe not the argument you want to hear, or perhaps yield to, but a heck of a thrust coming from Dale Murphy's family.
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Edgy MD Dec 19 2012 12:22 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Davidoff publishes his ballot and gives Mike Piazza a cold clinical no.
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Ceetar Dec 19 2012 12:25 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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yeah, Piazza was better than some of those guys, just not for as long, but catcher HAS to play into it. At least prorate his WAR to the average playing time of the other guys. Of course, part of the problem is they should've put guys like Bagwell and Martinez in last year, so there aren't so many good candidates this year.
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Swan Swan H Dec 19 2012 12:31 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
If I was talking baseball at a Christmas party in 1987 and someone told me that Dale Murphy wouldn't be a Hall of Famer by 2012 - and only would get 20% of the vote once in 15 years - I'd have thought they had too much egg nog.
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Edgy MD Dec 19 2012 12:37 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Davidoff gets crossed off my ballot for using the phrase "redonkulously good."
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metirish Dec 19 2012 12:41 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
It's funny to see doubt about Piazza in the HOF. In his pomp he was regularly called such things as "a no doubter for the HOF", "a certain HOF player", "future HOFer Mike Piazza". Only doubt was the hat.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 19 2012 12:43 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Yeah, that's a persuasive argument from Davidoff, and he gets extra points for confounding those who earlier this week had him painted as a Mets Front Office puppet for his Dickey-is-a-dick column (which imo struck many fans way too hard). I could and would probably slide in Mike P over Lofton or Martinez, but I like that they're getting votes and his reasoning is sound on the guys who deserve a vote but just can't earn one in this class. Seemed to me as though writers too often leave guys off a ballot so as to satisfy their own heirarchies, not because there are too many candidates.
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Swan Swan H Dec 19 2012 12:55 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
He prominently mentions Bagwell's 149 OPS+ and Martinez' 147 OPS+, but leaves out Piazza's 143 OPS+ achieved at a much harder position, as it would deflate his argument significantly.
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metirish Dec 19 2012 12:57 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Yes, kudos to Davidoff, I wonder how many of his fellow voters know what Jeffe's JAWS is, I have not a clue.
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metsmarathon Dec 19 2012 12:59 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
so... davidoff won't be voting for mariano, then, ever, right? because even eckersley's WAR & JAWS scores pale in comparison to nearly every other pitcher in the hall. and they're better than ol' 'lectric pool.
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Edgy MD Dec 19 2012 01:11 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Part of what's going on is that the ballot is getting crowded --- in part, I guess, because of (as Valadius will tell you) increasing stinginess, but even moreso because writers are having so much trouble dealing with the 80s, an era which played really neutral and close to the mean, and the 90s, an era with numbers (though we know not which ones) distorted by PED use. The conservative voter shrinks from the ambiguities these eras brought. Years later, backlogged candidacies from those eras leave a cold clinical guy like Davidoff spoiled for choice. He should've chosen Piazza over Lofton, but who knows? --- maybe by not giving Piazza his vote he's keeping worthy candidacies like Lofton's and Trammel's alive.
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metsmarathon Dec 19 2012 08:41 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
that'd be a reasonable and entirely unfortunate position i could stand by, though if that's the case, perhaps he should withhold a vote from bonds or clemens instead. or, y'know, just say so.
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Fman99 Dec 20 2012 10:16 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Lofton over Piazza? Fuck him. He can die in a grease fire.
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metsguyinmichigan Dec 20 2012 07:33 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Bonds and Clemens get in, and Sosa is kept out for corking his bat?
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 20 2012 08:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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The argument with Ruth is he likely wouldn't have dominated to the extent that he did had the talent pool not been so artificially-limited (not just without black players, but with barely any Hispanic/foreign-born players); there's likely something there, but it obviously can never be proven.
True-- one is a proven hand-eye-coordination booster, and the other is HGH/steroids.
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Frayed Knot Dec 20 2012 09:09 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I'm seeing his point as saying that all players are products of their era and that it's time to stop pretending that only those from the 1990s were somehow devoid of sporting morals when it's known that at least some of those who went before were willing to take whatever was available in their time to if it was thought to improve performance. Former pitcher Tom House has talked about experimenting with all kinds of shit - primitive horse steroids and the like - with a few guys he played with during his career. Among others he played with was Aaron ... was even the guy who caught his 715th HR ... Aaron had some great seasons in his late 30s and early 40s right around this same time ... hmmmmm. Point being, it's impossible to know everything about what went on, even among those about whom with know something, and it's at least as tough to know what others not yet (and maybe never) named were doing as well, and that as long as baseball was doing nothing about it, players & the league both, the punishment of those thus far named, at least within the pre-testing era, seems both selective and uneven. I think Davidoff has simply come around to the idea that it's impossible to separate, or in most cases even define, that era's players in simple black and white / user-vs-non categories and I believe that's the place many of his colleagues are going to eventually reach as well. I don't begrudge those who are taking their time to sort it out, but I think more are going to come around to a similar view to Davidoff's eventually. That doesn't mean there aren't things to disagree with or argue about in his list, but I don't think his steroids angle is wrong.
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Valadius Dec 21 2012 03:44 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Dale Murphy did an AMA today on Reddit.
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Edgy MD Dec 21 2012 05:00 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
That contrast between meeting Murphy as a kid and meeting Henderson is pretty funny.
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The Second Spitter Dec 27 2012 02:56 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
The permutation of Clemens in, Piazza & Bonds out, will make me seriously question my desire to follow this league.
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Edgy MD Dec 27 2012 08:54 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Personally, I think the notion that "He shook the rap in court, therefore he's absolved historically," is a cop out.
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Edgy MD Jan 02 2013 08:30 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Rob Castellano does a great job piecing apart Davidoff's Folly.
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metsmarathon Jan 02 2013 09:29 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
its nice to see someone adopting my JAWS+ metric.
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Edgy MD Jan 02 2013 09:52 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Gar the batting stance guy posted this little stat set.
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bmfc1 Jan 02 2013 11:28 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Spreadsheet of how the voting is going:
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Edgy MD Jan 02 2013 11:44 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'm confused. That spreadsheet seems to suggest they have reasonably accurate versions of 56 ballots. In order to be elected, a guy needs to appear on 75% of ballots, which in that sample would be 42 votes.
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Ceetar Jan 02 2013 11:48 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
A couple say they are partials.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 02 2013 12:47 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Oh, you mean, like Mark Faller? Or this guy?
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Edgy MD Jan 02 2013 12:57 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
He's defensible until he gets to his ballot of Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Curt Schilling, Don Mattingly. Ouch.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 02 2013 01:00 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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That's what I mean. Did Raines and Trammell use andro?
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G-Fafif Jan 02 2013 01:05 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
John Delcos listed as not voting for Piazza, but Delcos says he did.
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Vic Sage Jan 02 2013 01:43 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
like the other guy, this guy's argument is valid right up to the point where he starts naming his ballot... Fred McGriff, Jack Morris, Don Mattingly... at which point he loses all credibility.
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The Second Spitter Jan 03 2013 12:50 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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This is a salient point. In Game of Shadows it is suggested that Bonds benefited more from the use of Modafinil, a drug with amphetamine-like properties (that was not even on the WADA radar at the time) above any other drug.
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metsmarathon Jan 03 2013 07:52 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
mcgriff... ok... i guess... if you just look at home runs. why, he's got as many as gehrig - he must be a hall of famer!
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The Second Spitter Jan 03 2013 07:58 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Yanqui 4 Life! That counts extra.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 08:14 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Dwight Evans had damn near twice the career that Mattingly had. His Hall of Fame candidacy was met with little more than a shrug.
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bmfc1 Jan 03 2013 08:27 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Another ballot tracker:
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 03 2013 08:30 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
What does Nate Silver have to say about this?
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 08:32 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Also projecting an empty class. Valadius' nightmare is coming to pass.
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MFS62 Jan 03 2013 08:37 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'll vote for a person who spent most of his career as a DH (I'm callin' YOU out, Martinez) sometime after punter Ray Guy makes the Football HOF.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 08:43 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
You're calling him out as if he did anything wrong. He didn't.
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metsmarathon Jan 03 2013 08:43 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
so, no american league pitchers in the dh era either, then?
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SteveJRogers Jan 03 2013 08:49 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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What do they have against Craig Biggio I wonder? With the exception of Palmerio, the turn of the century through late 1920s guys (Lajoie, Speaker) due to the early days of the the writers trying to figure out what they were doing, and Rose obviously, all of the 3,000 hit guys have been first ballot enshrinees. Unless EVERYONE including those who don't "fit the anecdotal narrative" that played from 1995-2004 is being painted with same broad strokes?
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 08:54 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?
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Ceetar Jan 03 2013 08:58 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Being that at least one voter doesn't cover baseball anymore and retains the vote solely to not vote for Bonds/Clemens, I could see that.
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SteveJRogers Jan 03 2013 09:08 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Just making sure my statement is correct:
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SteveJRogers Jan 03 2013 09:12 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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You say that snarkily, but I respond, okay, then how did Paul Molitor get in on his first ballot? Did the writers get dumber in general knowledge in the nearly 10 years since Molitor first appeared on the ballot?
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seawolf17 Jan 03 2013 09:14 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
That 3000-hit list is really interesting.
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SteveJRogers Jan 03 2013 09:28 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Even more of a nightmare, all three Veterans Committee members, and the Frick Award winner (Toronto's Tom Cheek) are dead at the present time with only Spinx Award winner Paul Hagen (unless there is a Buck O'Neil Award awarded this year) as the only living person to give his own speech! I'm guessing it has been quite a long time, if ever, that none of the normal Hall nominees were alive to accept enshrinement.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 09:31 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I don't really mean it snarkily. But yes, it's possible the writers got dumber since 2004, or more stubborn, or less grave about their responsiblity. Molitor also played on a World Series winner at the end of his career, giving him a nice showcase, along with a nice career finish. Biggio was carried by his team mostly the last few years. By the time he got to the World Series, he was a shadow of his better days, he didn't perform well, and his team got swept. So I don't think Molitor is that analogous, profile-wise.
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 03 2013 10:34 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
As someone who thinks there are too many people in the Hall of Fame, I don't have a problem with a year in which nobody gets elected. I have a partisan interest in Piazza, so I hope it doesn't happen this year, but in general, the fewer the better.
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seawolf17 Jan 03 2013 10:45 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
1996, if this list is right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_me ... ll_of_Fame
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 10:59 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Yeah, but Craig Biggio did achieve 3,000 hits; plus 1,100 walks, 290 homers; and 400 steals (at a 77% success rate). He was hit by 285 pitches, leading the league five times and ultimately coming within two of turn-of-the-century Hughie Jennings' all-time leading number. In 12,504 plate appearances, he somehow grounded into only 150 double plays. And while Harold Baines played left field or no place through his career, Biggio played catcher, second, and center. Biggio is what you want in the Hall of Fame. It's almost like he's being doubly penalized for playing in the steroids era and not hitting enough homers.
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Ashie62 Jan 03 2013 11:05 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Biggio is a class act with a very great resume..
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Ceetar Jan 03 2013 11:44 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Except there are _at least_ 4-5 no doubt about it Hall of Fame of the Hall of Fame guys on the ballot this year. You don't have to put someone in every year, but you sure do have to put in the guys that deserve it.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 11:50 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
murraychassholyshitmurraychass!
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 03 2013 11:51 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'd love a smaller-- or tiered-- HoF too, if I had to start it from scratch.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 03 2013 11:55 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I especially like how he hyphenates "new-fangled." That makes him a hall of famer in my book.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 12:00 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I don't know how anybody gets such a high bullshit-per-word ratio into one entire essay.
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metsmarathon Jan 03 2013 12:08 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
well, somebody told chass that biggio was a roider. i guess that settles it then.
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Frayed Knot Jan 03 2013 12:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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And chalked up nearly 700 doubles in his career, behind only Speaker, Rose, Musial & Cobb Think of him as George Brett minus 24 points of BA plus a little power (although not much, plus was in a tougher hitting environment) but with more speed and defensive versatility. Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO.
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SteveJRogers Jan 03 2013 12:21 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I heard Colin Cowherd of ESPN Radio fame declare that Biggio doesn't belong anywhere near a Hall of Fame, while he'd put Canseco in. Reasoning, because of the FAME part! Canseco is much more FAMOUS than Biggio will ever be!
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Frayed Knot Jan 03 2013 12:28 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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My only comment to this is that it's exactly what I'd expect from Cowherd and that comments like these are why, rather than hoping he (and many of his ESPN brethren) would talk more baseball, I'd prefer they talk less.
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Ceetar Jan 03 2013 12:45 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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It's an interesting debate for sure. Do we want baseball to be closer to a tightly knit group of smart fans, or broad-reaching national pastime that everyone pays attention to? I lean towards the latter, which is why I always gladly welcome the Yankee bandwagoners to Queens when the opportunity arises.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 03 2013 12:48 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Funny thing-- the Times' writers, by paper policy, don't vote any longer for BBWAA awards, right? So the only reason he even retains the ability to vote is his dismissal.
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metirish Jan 03 2013 12:53 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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From the Chass piece
For some reason???? So, he is indicating that Piazza is going to drop a steroid blockbuster is his book? It's Murray Chass, I know.
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dinosaur jesus Jan 03 2013 12:55 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Has Chass maybe got Jack Morris mixed up with Cannonball Morris? Back when Chass was just a young beat writer on the Post-Gazette, Cannonball was about the biggest thing in Pittsburgh. Him and Pud Galvin. (These Bert Blylevens and Curt Schillings aren't fit to pull Pud's pud.) Or maybe in his mind they're the same guy, like Tony Fossas and Casey Fossum are for me. Forty-one wins in '86, and twelve shutouts! Three World Series titles! Four hundred and twenty-four wins in all, and the nastiest mustache in baseball! If that's not enough for the Hall of Fame, they need to build a new Hall just for him. Them. Whatever.
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metirish Jan 03 2013 12:57 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
His "About" profile on his blog, sorry, site is hilarious....it's like he wants to be a wanker.
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Swan Swan H Jan 03 2013 01:01 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Careful, there... one of his grandchildren may be on this forum.
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HahnSolo Jan 03 2013 01:21 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
While 'willing' the Twins over the Braves in that game 7, did Morris also will Lonnie Smith to stumble around the base paths like Lindsey Lohan stepping out of a Meatpacking District club?
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 01:30 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Yeah, sometimes I feel like Chass is really savvy about keeping his profile up with provocative nonsense, and the joke is all on me, feeding him more page hits than he can handle.
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Frayed Knot Jan 03 2013 02:40 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I welcome intelligent, informed debate at any time or place. The problem is that ESPN has become such the 800-lb gorilla of sports talk that what they do & say sets the agenda for much of the discussion in this country (in many smaller cities and towns the only choice for sports info is an ESPN-controlled outfit) and ESPN has decided to cast their lot almost entirely with football and basketball. The NFL because it's such a ratings monster; the NBA because the national TV package is a (mostly) ESPN/ABC product; and with NCAA football & hoops because they control virtually all of that too as those two provide most of their programming from August through April. As a result, the hosts who man the everyday jobs up in Bristol are hired specifically because they're gridiron & hoops geeks knowing that when baseball does get on the four-letter network it's as a ghettoized sport and can be shunted off to the side and dealt with by the guys on BB2N and a handful of specialized journalists like Olney & Kurkjian, etc. What remains can generally be divided into two groups: those who are indifferent to the sport of baseball; or those who are openly hostile to it. Given the option of having that crew discuss baseball, I'd prefer they simply take a pass.
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Ceetar Jan 03 2013 02:48 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'd argue that that crew isn't exactly doing justice to football or basketball either. But more people into baseball, even through the ESPN filter, will eventually be more people into baseball. After some get invested into it once ESPN tells them to (and thinking like 15 year old kids here) they'll be baseball fans and as they discover more intelligent discussion, we'll have more fans we actually enjoy conversing with. I'm not suggesting _I_ will watch/listen to the shows to hear what they're blathering on about, but I'd be fine with them telling people to watch baseball and hoping one or two breaks the shackles.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 02:50 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
It's like that in a lot of media culture. Programming tends to ape the leader, because you as long as your programming is parallel you can entertain and sell the notion that you too might someday be the leader.
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Mets – Willets Point Jan 03 2013 03:07 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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It confounds me that the leader became the leader with programming that is basically Sports Shouting and that others want to imitate that. [youtube]bsnpbOA739o#![/youtube]
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 03:21 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Market position, baby. They were first and by the time others got into the game, they had the audience and the money. Now, with Mickey Mouse money behind them, they couldn't falter if they tried.
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Ashie62 Jan 03 2013 03:36 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Kinda like MTV...
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 03 2013 07:06 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I used to work with Mark Faller at the Bridgeport Post and Telegram. Where is he now?
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 03 2013 07:23 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 03 2013 08:56 PM |
I guarantee there is ZERO chance that the writers don't elect anyone this year. There would be an uproar, and a huge economic hit to Cooperstown. The rules would be changed pronto, and the BBWAA would find itself with a very different process.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 03 2013 07:32 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Oh, and Murray Chass. This is DEPLORABLE:
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 03 2013 08:16 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Why, he's making a show of embarrassing self-righteous ignorance at the Arizona Republic.
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Gwreck Jan 03 2013 08:44 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
1. Jeff Bagwell
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 03 2013 08:54 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
What an awful ballot, it's as though he wanted to appeal to -- and piss off -- all perspectives simultaneously.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 03 2013 09:00 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
"I plan to wait a year on Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and Mike Piazza before placing them on my ballot."
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 03 2013 09:08 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
The logic is, I think, Bagwell already paid the price for suspicion by being unelected in his 1st year of eligibility.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 09:09 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
And how does he un-necessarily publish it and not spill a drop of ink to explaining his thinking?
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metsmarathon Jan 03 2013 09:10 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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jesus christ murray. if you're such a steroidal bacne savant, then the only reason there's no link between piazza and steroids is because you are not nor ever were a journalist. ya know what, you worked for the mother fucking times. the new york times. you don't think they would have wanted to be all over a biggish story like steroids in baseball? no, no, they're no news organization, i suppose...
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 03 2013 09:15 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Imagine, the Times wanted more evidence than bacne before inflicting harm on an athlete. And Chass is indignant about that!
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 09:19 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'm starting to guess that the whole "Piazza copped to it off the record" bit is either true or is believed to be true among enough writers, and they've spread the word around to each other: "Mikes dirty --- pass it on... but you can't write about it."
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 03 2013 09:24 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Oh my, this is HORRIBLE! "I am choosing to speak loudly by using silence. This is my way of expressing my anger to baseball. Angry that the powers-that-be turned their backs while this was going on. Angry that it took us so long to shine light on it." So he's protesting because HE AND OTHER SPORTSWRITERS "took so long to shine a light on it?" I'm not sure this is the same guy I worked with. But he covered the Yankees while he was in Bridgeport, so it probably is. I have a funny story about him on the company softball team.
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Frayed Knot Jan 03 2013 09:31 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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So what, the BBWA members are going to conspire amongst themselves to rig the vote so as to not offend the Cooperstown Chamber of Commerce?
Do you honestly believe they'd take a nearly 80 year process and turn it upside-down on the basis of one year's result? ... a result which, as pointed out somewhere above, has already happened before. Look, I don't think there's going to be an empty ballot either, but not for any of the above reasons. The choices are simply too strong for all of them to get passed up. I'm not buying any of the doomsday scenarios.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 03 2013 09:40 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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It is him. I happened to linger at the site where another recent column plead swith Bud Selig to retire 21 forever and ever for Roberto Clemente, citing an event in Bridgeport honoring him. This is a guy who obviously stopped paying attention a long time ago.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 09:47 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Starting to become increasingly clear how that has become the norm, and these ballots have become a burden to them.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 03 2013 09:50 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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The Hall made changes in the veteran's committee multiple times after they didn't elect anyone. That one year where no one was elected, I don't recall there being any super-strong candidates that year, or any big protests. Would they strip the BBWAA of the vote if no one is elected this year? Probably not, I was in a Chass-filled rage and over-reacted. But would there be some changes in the voting process? I wouldn't be stunned. 600 voters is a lot -- and that number seems to be growing steadily -- especially when a growing number of them are, well, idiots. It would make sense to start trimming some of the ancient Murray Chass types. Or, instead of the 75 percent rule, they could say something like the top two or three vote-getters are elected each year, regardless of the percentage. The negates the impact of the blank-ballot types.
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Valadius Jan 03 2013 09:56 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'd lower the threshold to 60%. Everybody that reaches 60% gets in eventually. Let's spare people a year or two of waiting.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 03 2013 10:22 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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If you're looking to send a message without unduly influencing the actual vote count, there's always been an option: not to vote.
The blank ballot/"protest vote" is something else entirely, and much more like grandstanding.
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Edgy MD Jan 03 2013 11:10 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Another reasonable alternative is that they recognize the gravity of their votes, the cache it gives them and their outlets, and do a little research over the course of the year. Talk to somebody, compare them side by side. Look at the decades of precedents among who has gotten in previously. Use the internet. I won't tell.
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G-Fafif Jan 04 2013 04:38 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Rubin's reasoning, as cut and pasted by Real Dirty Mets Blog. Based on the comments section at ESPN, I take it these were in the comments before, for whatever reason, Rubin/ESPN removed them.
The full Chass, in other words.
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Frayed Knot Jan 04 2013 06:33 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
- The option of NOT voting has always been there and one that is often taken by various eligible members. The 675 number (assuming that's correct) sounds like the total number of those who qualify to vote but the actual number seems to me (without actually checking) to usually be in the low 500s. Blank votes as a protest over steroid issues are another story (a bit of a silly one if you ask me although I'm not going to bust a gut over someone doing that) but writers who long ago stopped covering the sport opting not to vote even though they have that right is nothing new.
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Ceetar Jan 04 2013 06:50 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Blank votes are like a professor submitting the answer key to count in the curve. The Hall isn't an inner sanctum protected by the writers, they're simply supposed to select who they think are deserving without politicizing it. Voting blank, moralizing, leaving guys off for a year or more because they want to punish a player are all against what they're supposed to be doing. Anyone suspecting of doing so, never mind admitting to doing so, should be stripped of their voting rights for 10 years. We've got zillions of writers out there that would love a vote. In a way though, they've already changed by letting in internet writers. Guys that I respect a hell of a lot more than Chass, Rubin et all like Eno Sarris will, granted 10 years from now, get a vote which I suspect will be used much more responsibly.
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metirish Jan 04 2013 07:01 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I used to really want to visit the HOF , not so anymore,....it's a bit of a joke.
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Frayed Knot Jan 04 2013 07:02 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
In some cases a blank ballot might be the best one.
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Swan Swan H Jan 04 2013 07:08 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I've been there five or six times, and honestly spend 10% of my time, if that, in the 'Hall of Fame' area. The museum is the thing, and it's worth the visit.
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Ceetar Jan 04 2013 07:23 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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yeah, this. It's a good time.
Nope. not submitting a ballot is fine, purposing voting against guys is not. They're asked who should be in the Hall of Fame, not who shouldn't. why should they be able to downgrade other voters by submitting blank?
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metirish Jan 04 2013 07:33 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Speaking of people who should be in the HOF......Pete Rose has a reality show....
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Frayed Knot Jan 04 2013 07:38 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Voting for who should be in the HoF is the same thing as voting for who shouldn't.
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Edgy MD Jan 04 2013 07:46 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I have no problem with writers moralizing. It's a moral burden they bear, at least in part. I have a very big problem with them using inconsistent and petulant logic. What color were the pimples on Tim Raines' back? On Alan Trammel's? On Craig Biggio's?
Isn't equating suspicion with guilt, and assigning arbitrary punishments, the problem?
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MFS62 Jan 04 2013 08:13 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
In the absence of any hard evidence, looks can be deceiving. Acne can have many causes.
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Edgy MD Jan 04 2013 08:35 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Chass switches beats:
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metsmarathon Jan 04 2013 08:43 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
y'know, it'd be one thing if the anti-roider-voters were the new kids on the block, who weren't really in a position to take a stance against doping and other chemical enhancements while it either nascent or rampant.
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Vic Sage Jan 04 2013 10:37 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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as long as sportsmanship and character are part of the voting criteria for the HOF, the Hall has put BBWAA writers in the position of being moral arbiters. However, as journalists, they are NOT supposed to be moral arbiters, but reporters of substantiated facts. These are two very different roles which are being conflated for rhetorical purposes. It seems to me a reporter who didn't report about steroids abuse (or cocaine abuse, or amphetimine abuse, etc) because he didn't have the evidence an editor would naturally require before publishing such a story, can still have the responsibility to use what he knows (or thinks he knows) about a player in exercising his HOF vote. In fact he is REQUIRED to consider those things, as per the voting criteria. Unfortunately, i think the "morals" criteria is applied inconsistently, where its applied only in the negative, to keep guys out that writers think are morally undeserving, but rarely used in the positive as a tie-breaker for a marginal candidate of sterling character (e.g., Dale Murphy). And I don't think that journalists should have this authority in any event. They should cover news, not create it. Judging morality of the particpants could well skew the way they report and cover the sport.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 04 2013 10:50 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Blank/protest ballots strike me as a similar thing as-- only of a much, much less important scope than-- jury nullification. If it's justifiable, it's justifiable as a rock chucked by a citizen at a monolithic, broken system, to which they have little to no access.
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Edgy MD Jan 04 2013 10:53 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I would imagine most baseball writers who've had 10 or more years in the BBWAA have at some point been given responsibility beyond reporting and gotten a column in which to opine beyond the facts, on matters moral, cultural, and aesthetic. (And if you believe John Keats, those all dovetail.)
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Vic Sage Jan 04 2013 11:06 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Not true.
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Ashie62 Jan 04 2013 11:13 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
How about "term limits" for the HOF voters...
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Edgy MD Jan 04 2013 11:37 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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What's not true?
It certainly doesn't mean that the nature their job is, by definition, distinct from rendering historical judgment on a player's legacy.
They certainly shouldn't. Rubin casting his ballot and publishing it without explanation was seriously weak.
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Ashie62 Jan 04 2013 11:56 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I don't like the idea of this closed community of voters influencing each other with their own gossip and inuendo when voting time comes up.
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Vic Sage Jan 04 2013 02:06 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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This:
Factually untrue. The sportswriters do not in fact have a say over HOF voting bylaws/processes and are not "legislators" in this system.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 04 2013 04:31 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Hell, they do this all the time, especially for the awards. Those things are massive doses of group think.
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Ashie62 Jan 04 2013 04:35 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Thats why I don't take either institutions very seriously anymore..
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Edgy MD Jan 07 2013 11:36 AM HOF Frag |
Current tallies have Curt Schilling --- doubly penalized for playing in a steroids era and for not being as good as at least one other known user --- at 38.1% of the vote. That's 24.6 points behind Jack Morris.
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Swan Swan H Jan 07 2013 11:57 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) |
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Could it be they think he's an arrogant, unlikeable, self-promoting two-faced prick about whom virtually no ex-teammate has a good word to say, and who duped Rhode Island into funding his business to the tune of $75 million and cut and ran once things got tough? Someone who they might like to see answering questions about why he didn't get in? Just a guess.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2013 11:59 AM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) |
Sean Casey's reportedly a hell of a guy. Why isn't HE in the Hall yet?
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Swan Swan H Jan 07 2013 12:04 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) |
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If Barry Bonds had Sean Casey's personality he'd get in a hell of a lot sooner. I'm not implying that personality gets you in, just that it might keep you from getting votes your stat line might have earned, and Schilling is as disliked as just about anyone. Doug Fucking Glanville called him out, and he's practically Dale Carnegie. Mo Vaughn is the 1995 AL MVP, not Albert Belle. Switch heads and Belle wins in a runaway.
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Edgy MD Jan 07 2013 12:20 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) |
I accidentally gobbled up last year's thread.
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Edgy MD Jan 07 2013 01:27 PM Re: 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were) |
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Transplanted subsequent posts onto the 2013 thread.
Could be, but do you really think this is the case? I doubt more than a handful of voters put any thought in this direction.
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Swan Swan H Jan 07 2013 01:42 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
His abrasive personality, shall we say, comes up in a lot of articles about Schilling.
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Edgy MD Jan 07 2013 01:48 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Well, I'm sure some do. I have trouble believing that number, when applied to Schilling, add up to the difference between him and Jack Morris.
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Vic Sage Jan 07 2013 01:58 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
when you add those idiots to the idiots who just look at win totals (Morris/254 v Schilling/216), i think that's enough idiocy to explain it.
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Swan Swan H Jan 07 2013 02:04 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Just so I'm clear, I think Schilling ought to be in. If they kept the jerks out you could mount the all of the plaques on one sheet of plywood. I wouldn't want to have dinner with him, but he did enough to get in.
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Ceetar Jan 07 2013 06:24 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Heyman's ballot. I give up. I just don't care anymore, I'm just going to continue to point and laugh at these guys.
whole column if you want to laugh with me without deeming it another page hit.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 07 2013 07:43 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Horrible.
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bmfc1 Jan 07 2013 09:02 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
F anyone that votes for Mattingly but didn't vote for Keith.
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Edgy MD Jan 07 2013 09:33 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I was there in the eighties and he never "defined" ace, as can be surmised from his zero Cy Young Awards. In almost any season of their respective careers, four out of five GMs I just made up in my head would have taken Dave Stieb (1.4% of the vote in his only year on the BBWAA ballot) over Morris. Frank Viola and Bret Saberhagen --- these guys defined ace. Seriously, what was he paying attention to?
ERA? Personally, i found the long-form column, including his torment over the ballot compelling. But come on, use a reasonable and consistent standard and at least you'll get someplace. (Craig Biggio wasn't great? From 27-33, the guy was a war machine.) Somebody is confusing greatness with glamour. I think I need to pick another Armando fight with him.
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Ceetar Jan 08 2013 05:28 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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[url]http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/07/jon-heyman-wants-jack-morris-in-the-hall-of-fame-and-wont-let-the-facts-get-in-his-way-in-order-to-make-it-happen/
Heyman's since removed that line from his article.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 07:46 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Without an explicit retraction? That's pathetic.
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MFS62 Jan 08 2013 07:51 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Apparently its because Mattingly was good for "a short period of time". Later
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duan Jan 08 2013 08:39 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
this is going to be a weird one, but what's totally bizarre is how Tim Raines seems to be coming out as the winner of it. He's a bona-fide Hall of Fame player (unlike Jack Morris) but it's weird that it's the strongest class in living memory that's bringing him to the forefront.
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Ashie62 Jan 08 2013 09:03 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I would vote for Biggio ahead of Raines...
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HahnSolo Jan 08 2013 11:29 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
So, Heyman doesn't believe in "magic" numbers, OK.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 11:33 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Morris also played keyboards for Ace of Base or something.
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 08 2013 11:37 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Well, to be fair, by magic numbers I think he means "round" numbers. Like 500 homers or 3000 hits. And I tend to agree that those should not make anyone an automatic.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 12:03 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Well, what is "most wins in the 80s" though, but an understanding that meaning is achieved when numbers end in zero. Nobody gives a crap who had the most wins between 1953 and 1962.
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Valadius Jan 08 2013 12:07 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
This is shaping up to be the nightmare I've long thought might come. What a mess.
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seawolf17 Jan 08 2013 12:29 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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It totally is. You could induct twelve people out of this group, and they're going to get nobody because a bunch of sportswriters have bugs up their asses.
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Vic Sage Jan 08 2013 01:39 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
i don't think it's either a "nightmare" or a "mess".
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Frayed Knot Jan 08 2013 01:54 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Yup on all accounts.
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Gwreck Jan 08 2013 02:01 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Agreed. Since 2001, the HOF has welcomed Kirby Puckett, Bill Mazeroski, Bruce Sutter, Rich Gossage, Jim Rice and Andre Dawson, all of whom are weak to poor choices. No offense fellas, but you're not on the same level.
My worry is that with the voters' refusal to elect worthy candidates they become more likely to vote in the fringe/poor candidates, ie. Jack Morris.
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Ceetar Jan 08 2013 02:03 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
dust from the steroid era? What dust? Dust they've kicked up themselves? Dust they ignored? What about the other dust they've decided doesn't get you dirty, or players there played during a time when the writers decided there wasn't any dust?
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 08 2013 02:10 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I agree too. Except that I want McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens to never get in. Anyone who has disgraced the game the way that they have should not be enshrined in a Hall of Fame.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 02:13 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Which roid users are in the Hall of Fame?
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Ceetar Jan 08 2013 02:18 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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We don't know, but the odds are heavily in favor of their already being one there. We simply DON'T KNOW who used.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 02:22 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
No, you don't know. Exactly the logic you decry there.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 02:24 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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This implies that you know.
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Ceetar Jan 08 2013 02:29 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
All I said was there are already users in the hall. That's what I (and others) believe.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 02:39 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Well, others have different years selected, but several seem to be doing just this. The opinion stated as fact continues to be disappointing.
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seawolf17 Jan 08 2013 02:40 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Then I want them all to turn in the money they earned from every commentary they wrote about the McGwire/Sosa home run chase, and Roger Clemens being a World Series hero in Toronto, and about Mike Piazza's 9/21 home run.
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metsmarathon Jan 08 2013 02:44 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
pud galvin.
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Ceetar Jan 08 2013 02:48 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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the only thing disappointing is the arbitrary and sloppy way voters are choosing to vote. They're doing more damage to the image of the game, in my opinion, than Barry Bonds ever did.
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 02:50 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
There's no reason to scream.
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Swan Swan H Jan 08 2013 02:54 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
And look at Pud. If that doesn't swear a fella off the needle, why, I don't know what would.
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Frayed Knot Jan 08 2013 02:54 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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This implies that the writers are voting as if a solid bloc all with the same reasoning. But clearly they're not. Some are taking an absolutist 'Steroids = No' policy while others have stated specifically that they don't care. Most are somewhere in between deciding either they'll take each case individually or that their opinions are still evolving. I may not always like the results but I don't have a problem with the system - and certainly I'm not going to be lobbying for reforms based on the (as yet speculative) outcome from a single year's ballot.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 08 2013 04:08 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Hey, we're having a live chat on the Hall vote tomorrow starting at 1 p.m. and running through the announcement. The debate will be in the comments following this post. We've assembled a pretty nifty panel, if I do say so my self. Includes some very familiar names, because I maintain high standards, of course.
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Gwreck Jan 08 2013 05:02 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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What's your position on Gaylord Perry?
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Edgy MD Jan 08 2013 07:51 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Wunnerful.
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Ceetar Jan 08 2013 08:54 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
playing..
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 08 2013 09:31 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
What, no Fu?
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bmfc1 Jan 09 2013 05:03 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Nicely done Ceetar.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 09 2013 05:25 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Awesome!
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Ceetar Jan 09 2013 05:36 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Yeah. photoshop is fun.
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metirish Jan 09 2013 06:46 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Where do the FOX exit polls have Piazza?
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Frayed Knot Jan 09 2013 06:48 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I don't know, but Karl Rove is vehemently disputing Nate Silver's projections.
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Ceetar Jan 09 2013 06:51 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Last projection I heard (though granted I think these were only 20-25% released) was maybe Biggio and that's it.
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metirish Jan 09 2013 06:59 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I saw some exit polls that Heyman linked on Twittter....projections for Piazza were at 60%- 65%.....the thinking is he will get in next year.......I mean, this is utter bullshit....so, if those numbers are close was he then punished because he played in that era but we'll let him in next year, but not punished like a McGwire?
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Ceetar Jan 09 2013 07:01 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Heyman wants to see what's in Piazza's book.
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metirish Jan 09 2013 07:22 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Ha!, saw that too.....it's a joke
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 07:24 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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You've certainly got me there. Goat gonads. That's the sort of thing one wipes from one's memory..
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2013 07:27 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Even if he hadn't thrown a spitball (and he surely did) I don't know that his numbers would merit election. (As I've said before, my view is that the Hall should be very exclusive.) But I suppose my issue with Clemens and Bonds and McGwire is the disgrace they brought to the game, more than the cheating. These guys gave the game a huge black eye, and that should disqualify them. Their achievements can (and should) be recognized in Cooperstown's museum, but they should not get a plaque in the Hall.
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metsmarathon Jan 09 2013 07:28 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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i suppose it may also be the sort of thing that can get seaed indelibly into one's memory...
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2013 07:34 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
So, what time is the big announcement today?
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metsmarathon Jan 09 2013 07:42 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
baseball gave itself a black eye - it wasn't clemens or bonds or any player. clemens and bonds just helped wipe away what little concealer was left after the mac and sosa show.
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SteveJRogers Jan 09 2013 07:43 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
2pm on the MLB Network.
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metsmarathon Jan 09 2013 07:45 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
it also clearly helps that steroids made these guys ugly - bulbous, misshapen, over-inflated freaks with ominous veins burting forth from beneath their bad skin - and that the two leaders in teh steroidal clubhouse, bonds and clemens, are raging asshole fuckwads that nobody really likes.
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 07:50 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Under reported, but it's not like other professional sports leagues didn't practice segreagation and de facto bans on African Americans. Baseball's black eye in this regard was little different from society's.
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Gwreck Jan 09 2013 07:53 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Not to be unnecessarily argumentative but what's the difference?
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2013 08:32 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'd say that Clemens, for example, was defiant when caught, and started suing people and acting like an asshole. If he had been contrite from the beginning, and apologized, then this would have been a much quieter story, and it would have faded quicker. Instead, he brought a great deal of negative attention to the sport and was part of a big ugly mess.
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Valadius Jan 09 2013 08:46 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
My one consolation on Piazza is that Yogi Berra only received 67% of the vote his first year, and all the writers loved him.
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 09 2013 09:13 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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And on MLive, too! (I'll stop promoting our live chat now.)
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SteveJRogers Jan 09 2013 11:37 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Latest exit poll projection
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metirish Jan 09 2013 11:48 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Exit polling
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Ceetar Jan 09 2013 11:54 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Woah, someone voted for Bonds and not Clemens? how's that work?
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metirish Jan 09 2013 12:02 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
No one voted in...what a load of bolloxs
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Gwreck Jan 09 2013 12:02 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Nobody gets in this year.
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metirish Jan 09 2013 12:02 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Piazza 57.8%
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Farmer Ted Jan 09 2013 12:03 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Boo!!!!!!!!
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Gwreck Jan 09 2013 12:03 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Clemens got 8 more votes than Bonds. Of course that makes no sense.
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metirish Jan 09 2013 12:04 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Clemens - 37.6%
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 12:05 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I can kind of buy going in for Bonds and not Clemens, depending on how you buy the narrative about when they started dosing and how much value they derived.
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Gwreck Jan 09 2013 12:06 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Craig Biggio 68.2%
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 12:07 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
A story that'll get overlooked: Kenny Lofton is one and done.
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Gwreck Jan 09 2013 12:08 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Alan Trammell 33.6%
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metsmarathon Jan 09 2013 12:10 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
lofton being one and done sure does cut down on some future hof-worthiness debates, doesn't it?
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 12:13 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Mr. Aaron-Sele-Voter, step right up.
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metirish Jan 09 2013 12:15 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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looks like he voted for Green too.
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seawolf17 Jan 09 2013 12:16 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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More importantly, so is Bernie Williams. And there are a lot of outfielders who are more hallworthy than Lofton. Hell, maybe even Bernie Williams, and he isn't hallworthy either.
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Valadius Jan 09 2013 12:19 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
What a fucking joke.
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 12:20 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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BOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Get off the stage!!!!!!!
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Mets – Willets Point Jan 09 2013 12:22 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
The upside of Mike Piazza not getting into the HOF is that the Mets won't be able to immediately trade his plaque for low-level prospects.
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metsmarathon Jan 09 2013 12:36 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
per bbref, lofton has the 7th most WAR for a player they have listed as a centerfielder, sitting just ever so slightly below the level of average among all hall of fame centerfielders. the only player better than him who is not in the hall is griffey.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 09 2013 12:39 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
In related news, Piazza a first-rounder in the Hall of Bacne.
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 12:49 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Supposedly, Ken Rosenthal just went on MLB telebision and likened the "sabermetric community" to the Tea Party for "hijacking the system" with their "internet crusade" to keep out Jaques Morris.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 09 2013 12:50 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Well Morris shouldn't have taken all those steroids.
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 12:52 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I liked how thousands of tweets went out at once. Apparently "the sabermetric community" = "the unemployed community watching TV during the day."
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Ceetar Jan 09 2013 12:53 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Fangraphs has Lofton 14th on the WAR/CF list, .9 ahead of Carlos Beltran. (Bernie 35)
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SteveJRogers Jan 09 2013 01:18 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
It will never happen, but how about the Mets flipping the writers the bird and induct Piazza into their Hall and retire #31 this summer. Hell, do it on the weekend of July 19th, against the Phillies. First home series after the ASG and a week before The Hall's induction weekend (Mets in Washington that weekend).
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Valadius Jan 09 2013 01:28 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Thanks to these morons, next year's ballot gets even more ridiculous.
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seawolf17 Jan 09 2013 01:32 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
My ten for next year, as of right now: Bonds, Maddux, Bagwell, Piazza, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, McGwire, Clemens, and... Trammell, I guess? I'm not sure on my tenth. But I'm fully in on the Steroids Three now.
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SteveJRogers Jan 09 2013 01:32 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Kind of a weird mish-mash of the 98-01 and 05-08 eras. The complete list of next year's potential first timers: Moises Alou, Armando Benitez, Sean Casey, Jose Cruz Jr., Ray Durham, Damion Easley, Keith Foulke, Eric Gagne, Tom Glavine, Luis Gonzalez, Scott Hatteberg, Jacque Jones, Todd Jones, Jeff Kent, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza, Paul Lo Duca, Greg Maddux, Matt Morris, Mike Mussina, Trot Nixon, Hideo Nomo, Jay Payton, Kenny Rogers, Richie Sexson, J.T. Snow, Shannon Stewart, Frank Thomas, Mike Timlin, Steve Trachsel, Jose Vidro How about The Manchurian Brave going in with Piazza next year!
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Nymr83 Jan 09 2013 02:01 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I really wouldn't mind being up there next summer for Piazza/Maddux.
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SteveJRogers Jan 09 2013 02:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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The Vets added three guys from their "Pre-Intergration Era" vote, Deacon White a catcher in the 1880s, Hank O'Day an umpire from the early 1900s and Jacob Rupert, the Yankee owner during the Roaring 20s. All dead at the present time. So is Tom Cheek, the Frick Award winning longtime voice of the Blue Jays. Only the Sphinx award winner, Paul Hagen of MLB.com is living. Unless they pick a Buck O'Neil Award (for meritorious service to the game, started in 2008 and first posthumously given to O'Neil, Roland Hemond was the second recipient this past year) winner this year.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 09 2013 02:30 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
They also said they would honor some guys who never had a proper induction such as Lou Gehrig.
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dinosaur jesus Jan 09 2013 02:31 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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All right, so O'Day, White, and Ruppert probably won't make it. But Hank's old friends Bill Klem and John McGraw might be there to say a few words on his behalf. I know they've got some good stories. And if we're lucky, Fred Merkle will rehash his boner. If Deacon White doesn't show (in addition to being dead, he's suspicious of airplanes, the world being flat, you know), Deacon Jones is probably available. And then afterwards everyone can hoist a Knickerbocker in memory of Colonel Ruppert. I'm in. Anyone else?
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seawolf17 Jan 09 2013 02:50 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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"Hey, if that's all it takes to get into the Hall..." -David Cone
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 03:11 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Steroids Three? I guess you mean Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire. But where does that leave Sosa and Palmiero? Each has a career that's pretty superlative if that question gets shelved. Possibly re-opens a door for Canseco too, if fully in is fully in. Are you knocking off 20% (or so) for known juicers, which keeps those three over the line, but not the others? (I think this is a legit approach, by the way.)
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Mets – Willets Point Jan 09 2013 03:21 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Nobody elected to the Hall of Fame. He was a rightfielder, I believe.
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Frayed Knot Jan 09 2013 03:24 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Well, a lot of the writers obviously voted for 'I don't give a darn'. He, of course, was the short-stop.
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Ashie62 Jan 09 2013 04:14 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Could be the year for Gil Hodges then..
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 09 2013 04:23 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I thought this, too. If he's getting in at all, it's kind of now-or-never, isn't it?
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SteveJRogers Jan 09 2013 04:29 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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VC class already announced. Not sure when the next Post War ballot will be, possibly next year.
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The Second Spitter Jan 09 2013 04:38 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Great to see confirmation that (rumoured) skin ailments are now a factor weighing against admission. But why didn't they at least vote Raines in? Did he have eczema or something?
Recently read the tax case concerning Cheek. It was actually really interesting. The question of law was whether commentators are entertainers. I'm presently writing an article arguing the case was wrongly decided.
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 06:04 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I'm trying to figure out if I should conclude that a voting body this fragmented has no chance of giving Jeter a higher vote percentage than Tom Seaver, or they'll all coalesce around Jeter as a symbolic figure of redemption, just as Seaver shown just a bit brighter as a symbolic straight arrow in an age of yippies.
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metirish Jan 09 2013 07:15 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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For fucks sake, look at the thinking with this twat that writes for the Boston Globe
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/sport ... .html?_r=0
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metsmarathon Jan 09 2013 07:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
maddux should sail right in, no?
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Edgy MD Jan 09 2013 07:37 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Well, he only had two seasons, but the record suggests he was a pretty impressive doubles hitter. And, even then, he was a fantastic on-base guy. Lots of guys don't really develop their homerun stroke until they're in the bigs. Guys like... Don Mattingly... Derek Jeter... .
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batmagadanleadoff Jan 09 2013 07:56 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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That's the Derek Jeter defense. Because Jeter is already a first ballot lock for the Hall, he's earned the right to take steroids and PED's openly for the rest of his career without fear of jeopardizing his HOF candidacy.
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dinosaur jesus Jan 09 2013 08:53 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Does it work the same way if you already had back acne when you came into the league?
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Ceetar Jan 09 2013 08:59 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Derek's acne would probably be as a result of something of something sexually transmitted, or basketly transmitted, not just because of steroids.
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Ashie62 Jan 09 2013 09:37 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Steroids schmeroids....its part of the era... base your vote on the compilation of work.
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seawolf17 Jan 10 2013 07:19 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I'm going to have to come around on Sosa too, probably, but Palmeiro doesn't cross the "best players of his generation" line for me. He never really led the league in anything, wasn't a perennial all-star. He stayed healthy, played a lot of games, hit a lot of home runs, but other than that, was never a superstar.
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Edgy MD Jan 10 2013 07:58 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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The funny thing is the fans are as split on the issue of what to do with the roiders as the writers, but the writers are being vilified, and they're probably wondering why. They didn't create the problem. Nobody has been clear about what to do.
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Edgy MD Jan 10 2013 11:46 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
The original bacne thread, featuring a Hall of Fame post from dinojesus.
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metirish Jan 10 2013 11:51 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Dying
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 10 2013 12:56 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Classic!
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 10 2013 12:57 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
[url]http://www.suntimes.com/sports/17483473-419/morrissey-for-mlb-hall-of-fame-numbers-arent-the-only-thing-that-counts.html
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smg58 Jan 10 2013 01:01 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
We all knew that the steroids era would cause a major, major headache for Hall voters, and there is no way to avoid it that I can see. Even assuming that we could get each writer to apply some "internally consistent logic," that term would be defined differently by each writer. Plus, subjective impulses are simply harder to ignore when the objective criteria become murky; deep down and right or wrong, I wanted Piazza to get in yesterday, while I would sooner give the benefit of the doubt to trichinosis before I'd give it to Roger Clemens.
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Edgy MD Jan 10 2013 01:55 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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If consistent logic can be defined differently by different people, it's not consistent logic. The practice of logic is designed to defy subjectivity.
I had no idea there was a Morrissey for MLB Hall of Fame movement. The Smiths were great but...
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Vic Sage Jan 10 2013 02:14 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Whether we or the voters like it or not, there is a character/sportsmanship criteria for HoF selection, and so voters are by definition asked to be moral arbiters of the game and watchdogs at the gate. Some voters ignore that obligation, some observe it only in exteme (in their view) situations, some just factor it in on a case-by-case basis, and some may use it to boost certain otherwise-borderline candidacies. But as a consequence, without any guidelines offered by the HoF, the BBWAA or MLB, the vote will necessarily be all over the board on the PEDs issue and only time will allow a consensus to emerge. So everybody needs to take a pill and calm down. Nobody has a constitutional right to be in the HoF, and they certainly don't have a right to be in TODAY as opposed to a year from now.
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Ceetar Jan 10 2013 02:19 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
It's not hypocrisy to say one year a guy should be in the hall of 'fame' and then not vote him in?
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Zvon Jan 10 2013 02:22 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Kinda surprised by the no-one-in thing. Figured Piazza was a good bet. Lumping him in with the roiders is unfair. We all know that if Piazza was doing steroids Clemens would have been walking around with half a bat up his ass since 2000.
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SteveJRogers Jan 10 2013 02:32 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Just thought of something, there is more hard evidence that Mariano Rivera is guilty of negligent homicide/manslaughter than there is for Piazza as a PED user. Love to see if anyone uses THAT against Saint Mo when he comes up. There is precedence, people didn't vote for Alomar based on the spiting incident, I'm sure the Roseboro incident is why Juan Marichal isn't a first ballot HOFer and drug related issues apparently kept Fergie Jenkins and Orlando Cepeda on the ballot longer than they probably should have.
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Ceetar Jan 10 2013 02:34 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I mean I'd be surprised if a guy like Rivera didn't use something else anyway, but yeah no one cares about the other integrity stuff. drunk drivers, etc.
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Vic Sage Jan 10 2013 02:43 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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no, because guys can change their mind over time. but that's not what i was talking about anyway, and you know that. I'm talking about the brickbats hurled their way (including in this thread) because they didn't report on the PEDs while it was happening, but are now holding it against players in HoF voting. and i repeat: that's not "hypocrisy". That's doing 2 different jobs. whether they're doing either of those jobs WELL or not is another matter. But that's about competence.
there's a world of difference between "only electing good guys" and choosing not to vote for cheaters and felons.
writers have their suspicions about those guys. You may not credit their suspicions; neither might I. But this not a courtroom and they have no requirement to use only evidence sufficient for legal standards; their reasons can be entirely their own.
just as ignoring the clause by some voters supports THEIR biases. This entire process is a game of favorites and personal biases. If the HoF didn't want it not to be, they could vote to change the mechanism tomorrow, using blue ribbon panels, quantitative analyses and other more objective mechanisms. But as of now, this is the system, and blaming the voters because, in the aggregate, they came to a different decision than you would, is fine i guess, but not very meaningful.
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Ceetar Jan 10 2013 02:54 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
yes, no one is arguing that this isn't the system, that doesn't make it mind-numbingly stupid.
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Ashie62 Jan 10 2013 06:49 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Gonna have to expand the ballot to 20 to catch up..
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metsguyinmichigan Jan 10 2013 06:55 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
The idea of sportswriters being the moral arbiters of anything is pretty funny. There's a group that needs to police itself.
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Edgy MD Jan 10 2013 07:49 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Well, if it were really funny, it would have been funny a long time ago, and then not funny anymore, and then funny only in the sense that it's not funny, and then maybe ironically funny, or worthy of a brief smile whenever anybody thought of how funny it used to be, wondering about those innocent times when all it took to break up the boys in the frat house was Gracie Allen playing dumb on the radio, or sportswriters as moral arbiters.
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Kong76 Jan 10 2013 08:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Something will come out about Jeter one day. He flew above/
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Ceetar Jan 10 2013 08:18 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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He's willing to fake being hit by a pitch to help his team but isn't willing to take what nearly all his teammates are taking to heal faster, workout harder? That's hard for me to believe.
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Edgy MD Jan 10 2013 08:57 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Piazza's co-author has come out and said that his book will explicitly deny steroid use. Guess the notion of holding a vote until he comes clean in an autobiography isn't going to work.
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Kong76 Jan 10 2013 09:21 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
How will it tell us that?
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Edgy MD Jan 10 2013 09:31 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
I dunno, that picture just promises me so much.
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Mets – Willets Point Jan 10 2013 09:43 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
What about his acting stint as the villain in Teen Wolf?
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Mets – Willets Point Jan 10 2013 09:48 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Seeing that PED use was widespread throughout baseball, and especially a large number of his teammates have been identified as users, it is hard to believe that Jeter spent his entire career clean as his hagiographers wish us to believe. But even if he somehow never touched the stuff, he still benefited. Roiders were on base when he came to bat causing the pitchers change to change their approach, roiders protected him in the lineup, roiders wore down starters and let Jeter feast on weak relief pitchers. And I don't recall Jeter ever calling out any of the roiders on his team. He fully accepted the benefits to his own performance and the team's success. These things are obviouslytrue of every player in baseball, clean or roided full tilt, but somehow we only hear about Jeter being the good guy.
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Frayed Knot Jan 10 2013 10:04 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
That's been the problem with this whole process of fans/media/whoever trying to separate who did with who didn't; folks tend to pick guys who (either way) reinforce their own predetermined views.
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Edgy MD Jan 10 2013 10:21 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Gwreck Jan 10 2013 10:39 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I thought marrying the Playboy model and having kids with her did that already.
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Benjamin Grimm Jan 11 2013 04:33 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Well, he wouldn't be the first gay guy to have married a woman and had kids.
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Edgy MD Jan 11 2013 07:48 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Frayed Knot Jan 11 2013 07:55 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Even NATIONAL LAMPOON chimed in with a warning around that same era so it's tough to claim we weren't aware.
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Farmer Ted Jan 11 2013 01:07 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
The Sports Xchange
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Ceetar Jan 11 2013 01:16 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
two ways it goes I guess, he apologizes for his fellow teammates "everyone was doing it" but declares he wasn't which I don't think would go over well, or
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G-Fafif Jan 11 2013 01:58 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
"We got a 68, and I'm going to go back and study a little harder and hopefully get a 75 next year."
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batmagadanleadoff Jan 11 2013 04:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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That issue was among the very first SI's I ever leafed through. The needle on that cover gave me the godamn creeps.
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Mets – Willets Point Jan 11 2013 08:16 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Painkillers? Was there a scourge of acetaminophen abuse marring the game?
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Ceetar Jan 11 2013 08:30 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Pretty tame compared to Toradol I imagine, but light years better than the 'put some ice on it' methods years before that.
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Edgy MD Jan 11 2013 10:33 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Read the article, man. People be dying.
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SteveJRogers Jan 19 2013 11:32 AM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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FWIW, I think Lance Armstrong pretty much did in ANYONE from the Steroid Era getting in on the Writers Ballot now. Because, even if they continue the Piazza approach, they'll still say "look at that creep Armstrong. All those passed tests, all those lawsuits, etc." Even though Piazza's laid back approach is probably preferable, as opposed to what certain media types say that they'd do the obnoxious things that Armstrong and Clemens have done, its the fact that they feel so strongly about being lied to that I don't think anyone is getting in, not for a long while. Oh FUCK! Does this mean that MFY Andy Pettitte will be the only one from this "era" making the Hall because he was forced to come clean in a Court of Law? Christ, guy wasn't even THE GUY on those Yankee postseason teams. The guy is a glorified Ron Darling or Jerry Koosman (though I have heard someone make a HOF case for Kooz based on his career stats, besides win total, being comparable to The Manchurian Brave).
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Edgy MD Jan 19 2013 01:17 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
Players from the steroid era will certainly make (and indeed, have made) it into the Hall of Fame via the writers' ballot.
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SteveJRogers Jan 19 2013 01:35 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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I agree, just trying to get into heads of the morons who leave Piazza and Bagwell off due to meer suspicions.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 19 2013 04:13 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
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Well, with Armstrong, he didn't necessarily pass tests... he "passed tests" (most often via pressuring/extorting/making sizable donations to officials and organizations controlling said tests). It's a different thing entirely. Not that THAT fact is germane-- people will still see it and think what they are inclined to think; I just think that those folk are likely "no" voters on steroid-rumor guys anyway.
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metsmarathon Jan 19 2013 07:09 PM Re: 2013 HOF In Balloting Thread |
also lance was good enough and smart enough (and goshdarnit people like him!) to not allow himself to get tested when he would have failed it.
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