Master Index of Archived Threads


Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Vic Sage Dec 06 2012 11:46 AM

Mets are considering Miguel Olivo as the platoon partner for Thole this year. http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2012/12/5/3 ... guel-olivo some power, with a good arm. Can't be worse than Nickeas.

metirish Dec 06 2012 11:49 AM Re: Olivo?

Does he have a nice body to go with that power and good arm?

Edgy MD Dec 06 2012 11:49 AM Re: Olivo?

Hopefully, their ambition exceeds "better than Nickeas."

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 06 2012 11:57 AM Re: Olivo?

Olivo seems very Barajassy to me. Anyone know what if any plate skills Anthony Recker brings? We know he can hit AAA pitching anyway.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 06 2012 11:59 AM Re: Olivo?

Why zero interest in bringing Shoppach back? #anotherwarmbody

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 06 2012 12:02 PM Re: Olivo?

He was fat and he sucked.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 06 2012 12:08 PM Re: Olivo?

Y'know, as opposed to marble-chiseled Miguel Olivo and Throb. Really, though? Olivo? I'd almost rather have Throb back.

Swan Swan H Dec 06 2012 12:14 PM Re: Olivo?

Either last night or Tuesday night Guys! made reference to Shoppach's personality as a reason he's not likely to return. Apparently there is no lack of fat sucky guys with positive dispositions out there.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 06 2012 12:17 PM Re: Olivo?

Now you're just BEGGING for Throb.

Edgy MD Dec 06 2012 12:20 PM Re: Olivo?

I got Shoppie early in the season in my OotP 2012 replay, and even his electronic alter-ego is annoying.

Ceetar Dec 06 2012 12:22 PM Re: Olivo?

Ted Berg wrote: Mets with better OBPs than Miguel Olivo in 2012 include: Josh Thole, Kelly Shoppach, Mike Nickeas, Rob Johnson, Jon Niese, Chris Schwinden

Edgy MD Dec 06 2012 12:23 PM Re: Olivo?

So, what you're saying is... he should be affordable?

Swan Swan H Dec 06 2012 12:27 PM Re: Olivo?

Ceetar wrote: Mets with better OBPs than Miguel Olivo in 2012 include: Josh Thole, Kelly Shoppach, Mike Nickeas, Rob Johnson, Jon Niese, Chris Schwinden He may walk less than Stephen Hawking, but at least he hits one out every so often.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 06 2012 12:49 PM Re: Olivo?

It seems like we're in an era when almost all catchers suck. That means that the goal is to get the guy who sucks a bit less than the other guys.

Edgy MD Dec 06 2012 01:26 PM Re: Olivo?

And that's why I'm here to help! [list:2wwnbxrb][*:2wwnbxrb]Koyie Hill sucks less than Nickeas.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Henry Blanco sucks less than Hill.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Matt Treanor sucks less than Blanco.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Ronny Paulino sucks less than Treanor.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Humberto Quintero sucks less than Paulino.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Chris Snyder sucks less than Quintero.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Yorvit Torrealba sucks less than Snyder, and played for three teams in 2012 proving it.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Brian Schneider sucks less than Torrealba, but for how long, Schnied? HOW LONG?![/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Wil Nieves sucks less than Schneider.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Rod Barajas sucks less than Nieves, but it's a hard call.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Miguel Olivo sucks less than Barajas.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Kelly Shoppach sucks less than Olivo.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]Mike Napoli sucks less than Schneider.[/*:m:2wwnbxrb] [*:2wwnbxrb]A.J. Pierzynski sucks less than Napoli[/*:m:2wwnbxrb][/list:u:2wwnbxrb] Pretty much the dotted line between "sucky, but could be an asset," and "not really that sucky" occurs between Shoppie and Napoli. I apologize if some of these suckers area already off the suck market, but, you know, there's clearly no shortage. Sorting these suckers out is where the rubber hits the road in professional souting. I think the Mets hit the trade market. Trade a modest pitching prospect (Mark Cohoon) for Taylor Teagarden or somebody else who may still have some time to prove he's not as sucky as all that.

Ashie62 Dec 06 2012 06:22 PM Re: Olivo?

Pierynski does not suck... I am still waiting for Thole to develop ala Todd Hundley.

Edgy MD Dec 06 2012 08:03 PM Re: Olivo?

I tried to say that at the bottom., but he's gonna sign with the Yankees, which is about the suckiest thing a player can do.

MFS62 Dec 07 2012 09:26 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Oliva's numbers don't seem all that terrible. http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... mi01.shtml His offense hadn't declined much with age. Defensively, he throws out a decent percentage of baserunners, but he has led the league in PB a number of times. If they signed both of them, I wouldn't use him when Dickey is pitching. But other than that, looking at Edgy's list, they could do a lot worse. Later

seawolf17 Dec 07 2012 09:29 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Which numbers, exactly, are you looking at? The .239 OBP last year? The 85 Ks and SEVEN walks? Olivo brings nothing to the table that you don't already get from Josh Thole, except MAYBE a little pop.

MFS62 Dec 07 2012 09:41 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

seawolf17 wrote: Which numbers, exactly, are you looking at? The .239 OBP last year? The 85 Ks and SEVEN walks? Olivo brings nothing to the table that you don't already get from Josh Thole, except MAYBE a little pop. And that little pop would be acceptable in the platoon role he would fill. He's not a long term solution by any means. But he is what he is. And if he could be signed for a reasonable price, its acceptable. Later

Vic Sage Dec 07 2012 09:49 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

What do you think we're going to get, shopping at the discount store? while OBP is obviously a critical component of any player's offensive contribution, all we're looking for is a low-cost platoon partner for Thole, who'll play against LHPs and hit toward the bottom of the order, and can give us more than we got from Nickeas/Shoppach/Johnson in that role last year. All we need for that is a guy who can slug a bit and throw ok. Is Olivo the best available guy fitting that description? Dunno, but I bet Sandy does.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 07 2012 09:53 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

All I know is Olivo sucks less than Barajas but more than Shoppach. Edgy, how much does Arencibia suck? Ken Rosenthal sez Jays will let us have him for Jon Niese. I'd take a catcher from them for Jon Niese, but that catcher's not JP Arencibia.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 07 2012 09:57 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

I'll flip Gee for Arencibia but I'm concerned his teammates might get depressed.

Edgy MD Dec 07 2012 10:15 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Edgy, how much does Arencibia suck? Probably as much as Shoppie, but, you know, younger, cheaper, more chance of improvement. It's funny to think Shoppach burned some bridges with his personality. The Mets have a long history of treating catchers with personality issues as assets.

Chad Ochoseis Dec 07 2012 11:22 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Jarrod Saltalamacchia sucks a little less than Arencibia, but a lot more than Napoli. As much as Thole sucks, I'm not sure he sucks much more than any of the non-Napoli or Pierzynski people on that list. If the going rate for Arencibia is Niese, I'd rather suffer through another season of Thole/Nickeas or Recker.

Edgy MD Dec 07 2012 11:44 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

We can improve on Nickeas 2012. Maybe we already have. But if we don't think we can do that, there's little reason to get up in the morning. For Terry, for Nickeas himself, or for any of us.

vtmet Dec 07 2012 01:42 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

I don't think that the Mets are going to see a difference between being a winner or a loser based on which catcher they attain for 2013 vs 2012...but still, they have got to come up with a plan for the future at that position...Mets catchers have pretty much sucked for a long time, with no end in sight...They've been so bad that Omir Santos offensive/defensive stats from 2009, look pretty solid in comparison...

Ceetar Dec 07 2012 01:45 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

I'm just hoping Thole's OBP reverts and continue hoping for a legitimately very good outfielder to be the big upgrade to the offense.

Edgy MD Dec 07 2012 02:05 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

I don't think that the Mets are going to see a difference between being a winner or a loser based on which catcher they attain for 2013 vs 2012...but still, they have got to come up with a plan for the future at that position...Mets catchers have pretty much sucked for a long time, with no end in sight...They've been so bad that Omir Santos offensive/defensive stats from 2009, look pretty solid in comparison... I see it as the relative failure of the Mets catching delegation makes it even more likely that it's a place that meaningful improvement can mean a real difference to the team. I mean... what I means to say is... check out the bb-r WAR numbers for the Mets catching staff. [list][*]Josh Thole: -0.1[/*:m] [*]Mike Nickeas: -0.9[/*:m] [*]Kelly Shoppach: 0.1[/*:m] [*]Rob Johnson: -0.2.[/*:m][/list:u] In theory, just by getting replacement level production from behind the plate, the Mets are already 1.1 wins better than 2012. If they get somebody in a Mets uniform playing decently back there, maybe two or three wins. That's a pretty short road to a meaningful improvement.

vtmet Dec 07 2012 02:37 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Edgy MD wrote: In theory, just by getting replacement level production from behind the plate, the Mets are already 1.1 wins better than 2012. If they get somebody in a Mets uniform playing decently back there, maybe two or three wins. That's a pretty short road to a meaningful improvement. I see your point, but with the Mets history in recent years in the undervaluing of catchers, combined with their salary range that they supposedly have to work with, combined with the available free agents...I just don't see a significant improvement for the 2013 season (which IMO, is less important that getting a catcher that projects better down the road)... Mets had Rod Barajas initially in 2010...he put up 12 HRs and 11 doubles in less than 300 Plate Appearances; and because his other skills were so poor, he still have a 0.0 WAR for the Mets... Paulino in 2011...11 doubles, 2 HRs, .268 average & still put up a negative WAR for the Mets... If I remember correctly (memory isn't working as good as it used, by the way)...The Mets had a chance to sign Ramon Hernandez as a Free Agent in the 2005-2006 off season; and I believe they were close to signing him to a multi-year deal but then backed off and chose to trade for Paul Lo Duca instead (because I believe that what was left on Lo Duca's deal was less than what Hernandez would have cost)...

Ceetar Dec 07 2012 02:47 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

fangraphs has Thole at +.01, and rates him much better in 2011 and 2010 as well. .9 and 1.6. not a 'full' season, over 120-130 say he's probably approaching 2 if 2012 was the fluke which would put him as a borderline starter, though hardly a problem. B-R only has him around half a WAR, but still positive for those years. Barring a catcher falling into the Mets lap, Thole still seems like the best gamble.

Edgy MD Dec 07 2012 03:10 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Agreed, but then it's still a question of Thole and who else.

Chad Ochoseis Dec 07 2012 03:13 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

I'm not a fan of using WAR as a metric, but what surprised me about BBRef is that it gave Thole a 1.1 defensive WAR for last season. Joe Mauer hasn't ever had a defensive WAR greater than 1 in a season. Buster Posey hasn't done it yet, either. Yadier Molina gets high scores, but the other Molina brothers have only had three dWAR > 1 seasons between them. If Nickeas really is worse than replacement level, there should be a free agent that we can sign for the major league minimum who would be an improvement. So, sure, no reason not to do that. But I wouldn't want to give up a player of potential value for any of the available catchers we've been discussing in this thread.

vtmet Dec 07 2012 05:02 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

If Dickey gets traded, will it be a package deal that includes Josh Thole? Thole has logged 424 of RA's best career innings catching the knuckler... http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... &t=p#catch Sure others can do it, but catching a knuckler can be harder than you would think...The Red Sox tried to replace Paul Mirabella with Josh Bard as the backup catcher (aka, Tim Wakefield's personal catcher) in 2006...Bard proceeded to give up 12 stolen bases and 10 passed balls in 6 games and the Red Sox had to trade to get Mirabella back on May 1st (barely a month into the season)...

Ceetar Dec 07 2012 09:15 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Chad Ochoseis wrote: I'm not a fan of using WAR as a metric, but what surprised me about BBRef is that it gave Thole a 1.1 defensive WAR for last season. Joe Mauer hasn't ever had a defensive WAR greater than 1 in a season. Buster Posey hasn't done it yet, either. Yadier Molina gets high scores, but the other Molina brothers have only had three dWAR > 1 seasons between them. If Nickeas really is worse than replacement level, there should be a free agent that we can sign for the major league minimum who would be an improvement. So, sure, no reason not to do that. But I wouldn't want to give up a player of potential value for any of the available catchers we've been discussing in this thread. It's far from perfect, but..well, nothing is. being skeptical of defensive metrics as it is i do find it hard to gauge a catcher using it though. Arguably it's grading all catchers by that same flawed formula ,but.. I dunno. I did think Thole was a better defensive catcher than Shoppach though. Nickeas had a couple of blips, but all in all I'm not sure you do much better than him in a backup role, strictly defensively. So really..right-handed, better than Shoppach defensively, better than Nickeas offensively. That's all I'm really asking for Thole's backup/platoon/partner. And I don't think we need to give up something to get that. I suspect, in fact, that we already grabbed a good candidate. Now, if a decent catcher is tossed into a bigger deal, that's a different story.

MFS62 Dec 07 2012 09:23 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Thole has logged 424 of RA's best career innings catching the knuckler... Maybe they looked at all the innings Thole caught Dickey and said "He must be a very good defensive catcher" and threw him some extra WAR points. And maybe not. Later

Ceetar Dec 07 2012 09:24 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

MFS62 wrote: Thole has logged 424 of RA's best career innings catching the knuckler... Maybe they looked at all the innings Thole caught Dickey and said "He must be a very good defensive catcher" and threw him some extra WAR points. And maybe not. Later there's a good chance it's the opposite.

Edgy MD Dec 07 2012 10:20 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Yeah sheesh, I'm sure there's little point to them to go cooking the books on their stats. I'm not really arguing for WAR, but just pointing out that a modest investment can buy them a game or two, which still is the idea.

vtmet Dec 09 2012 07:19 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

I know that it's a different era...and not even sure if they tracked all of the different stats/factors that they do by today's standards...but if you were going strictly by WAR, how would Jerry Grote look? Would he even cut it as a 2nd string catcher? Yet, was he an integral part of the Mets success in the late 60's and early 70'Ss? Did he do things for the pitching staff that isn't going to show up on paper?

MFS62 Dec 09 2012 07:53 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

Edgy, I was joking about awarding extra points. I know they are derrived using a formula. But a guy who frequently catches a knuckleball pitcher needs to get some kind of "purple heart" for all the bruises. Later

vtmet Dec 09 2012 08:55 AM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

... But a guy who frequently catches a knuckleball pitcher needs to get some kind of "purple heart" for all the bruises. speaking of which...is there a way to find out Thole's(or anyone else's for that matter) defensive stats by "splits"? It would be interesting to see how many passed balls or errors occured when catching Dickey; or even his caught stealing percentage by pitcher... Allow me, then, to toss a molehill on top of that mountain of accomplishment: R.A. Dickey is doing a historically great job of holding runners on base. With agility, poise, and a deep understanding of the fundamentals—as well as some out-and-out flaunting of the rulebook, which we’ll examine later—Dickey has overcome the highest possible degree of difficulty to not only hold his own against the running game, but become one of the very best in baseball at shutting it down. In 2012, only three qualified starters in all of baseball have allowed fewer stolen base attempts per stolen base opportunity than Dickey (defining “stolen base opportunity” as a man on first or second with the next base open). The average qualified starter has allowed 5.81 stolen base attempts per 100 opportunities this season. Dickey has allowed 1.85. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=18519

Swan Swan H Dec 17 2012 06:35 PM Re: Olivo? (Catchers in Thirteen)

He may not have been a free agent, but America wants to know where John Buck stands in the Edgy MD Spectrum of Suck.