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Star Wars V: The Empire Strikes Back

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Elster88 Dec 12 2005 01:41 PM

We've already discussed this one on the old forum, but I noticed another reason why it's by far the best of the bunch: Lucas gets neither screenplay nor directing credit.

Centerfield Dec 13 2005 09:52 AM

If you're a fan of Star Wars, you should check out this page with deleted scenes: http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/cut_scenes/ep4/ I think most of us will agree that these scenes were rightfully cut, but it gives you an idea of what Lucas had in mind for the characters. The real interesting part comes in the Yavin scene (entitled Biggs Reprise) where Red Leader tells Luke: "I met your father once when I was just a boy. He was a great pilot. You'll do all right. If you've got half of your father's skill, you'll do better than all right." Lucas tries to claim that he had the storylines to the prequels written before the first movie was ever made. I think this scene pretty much blows that theory to shreds. In fact, this line makes it seem like he wasn't even sold on making Darth Vader his father.

Elster88 Dec 13 2005 10:00 AM

Great CF, like I didn't have enough ways to waste time from 9 to 5. Seriously, though great link. Lucas tries to claim that he had the storylines to the prequels written before the first movie was ever made. I think this scene pretty much blows that theory to shreds. Interesting. I guess it's possible that Anakin met some of the military in that time between II and III, I haven't read or seen any of that stuff, and maybe that was what Lucas had in mind here. (As in, when he wrote this scene he was thinking, Luke's pop was cruising around with the military in the past before he became Vader.) In fact, this line makes it seem like he wasn't even sold on making Darth Vader his father. Unless the knowledge that Anakin became Vader wasn't generally known in the rest of StarWarsLand. Maybe everyone thinks that Anakin was killed by Vader the way Ben told Luke in IV.

Elster88 Dec 14 2005 10:04 AM

From the cut scenes for RotJ something was confirmed that I thought I remembered reading in the novelization: Owen Lars was originally Obi-Wan's brother.

RealityChuck Dec 14 2005 10:49 AM

A pretty good sequel, but not up to the original. It just didn't have the impact that Star Wars -- probably the most influential movie in the past 30 years -- had. Well done, but it wasn't new any more, and that weakened it.

Edgy DC Dec 14 2005 11:01 AM

Disagree. Yoda was one of the best characters created for film you'll ever see. Certainly for a family film. The world owes Frank Oz.

Elster88 Dec 14 2005 11:46 AM

RealityChuck wrote: A pretty good sequel, but not up to the original. It just didn't have the impact that Star Wars -- probably the most influential movie in the past 30 years -- had. Well done, but it wasn't new any more, and that weakened it. Impact, bah. Influential, humbug. Which one did you enjoy more?

Centerfield Dec 14 2005 12:32 PM

On Edit: Found the scene you were talking about Elster. If nothing else, this quote: BEN (continuing his narrative) When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. So I took you to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan. Should pretty much eliminate any doubt that Lucas came up with the prequel story lines well after the fact. BTW, this was pretty cool...originally, they toyed with the idea of having Yoda played by a midget:

Edgy DC Dec 14 2005 01:00 PM

Well, there's some stuff there (like Senator Organa) that holds up. So the stories were perhaps in his head or sketched out crudely, but evolved over time. Besides, it's pretty comforting to know those crap stories weren't fully fleshed out yet when the good ones were being made. I have seventies comic books with early ads for the movie describing characters like "Luke Starkiller" and "Princess Organa." So even the initial story details were evolving late in the production.

Elster88 Dec 14 2005 03:34 PM

Princess Organa was correct. She was a princess and a senator. I was watching a special feature on one of the DVDs where Lucas said his original idea was to make the father the main character in IV, V, and VI, and his name would be Anakin Starkiller. I'm glad he changed it. Skywalker is much cooler.

Elster88 Dec 14 2005 03:37 PM

I'm too young to have seen it in the theater. Was the "I am your father" line like a punch in the gut? Was it a shock? Or did people know ahead of time? Homer spills the beans in one Simpsons episode and a guy in line is pissed. With no Internet and whatnot I'm guessing it was not generally known, unless a dumbass like Homer ruined the surprise.

Edgy DC Dec 14 2005 04:57 PM

Yeah, I know Princess Organa was correct technically, but clearly her surname wasn't the name she flew under through the first film. Cut me some slack, Jack, you know what I mean. Even in the opening creep, she's referred to only by her first name.

RealityChuck Dec 15 2005 11:42 AM

Impact, bah. Influential, humbug. Which one did you enjoy more? The first, by far. Empire was just more of the same -- well done, but not up to the same level because I'd seen it before. Any science fiction fan (and, at the time, that meant people who read science fiction, since films were few and far between) found the film to be wonderful. I recall that the reviews for Empire at the time said essentially the same thing: good movie, but not up to the original. It wasn't until the 90s that I started seeing people saying how it was better. I'm too young to have seen it in the theater. Was the "I am your father" line like a punch in the gut? Was it a shock? Or did people know ahead of time? Homer spills the beans in one Simpsons episode and a guy in line is pissed. With no Internet and whatnot I'm guessing it was not generally known, unless a dumbass like Homer ruined the surprise. It was an interesting plot twist, but I didn't particularly think it was all that shocking. It seemed to me at the time to be something just tacked on as a "gotcha" for the audience. I also remember being skeptical that it was meant to be true: Vader was certainly in a position to lie about it to gain an advantage.

Willets Point Dec 15 2005 11:51 AM

Elster88 wrote: I'm too young to have seen it in the theater. Was the "I am your father" line like a punch in the gut? Was it a shock? Or did people know ahead of time? Homer spills the beans in one Simpsons episode and a guy in line is pissed. With no Internet and whatnot I'm guessing it was not generally known, unless a dumbass like Homer ruined the surprise. I remember thinking it was a fib and didn't believe otherwise until Yoda confirmed it in Return of the Jedi.

Edgy DC Dec 15 2005 12:07 PM

Empire Strikes Back had romance, Yoda, characters with inner lives, the sonorous baritone of Billy Dee Williams, and taun-tauns. It had "never tell me the odds," it had "scruffy-lookin' nerfherder," and it had "I'll see you in Hell!" It had the princess and the pirate, Boy Against Father, did I mention Yoda?

RealityChuck Dec 16 2005 06:58 AM

Star Wars had the Deathstar, the opening shot, the cantina, the entire new universe, the 1930s serial updated. Empire was just riffing on the same themes. Not bad, but far less creative and dramatic.

Elster88 Dec 16 2005 07:43 AM

Just going on the story Empire was far and away more dramatic.

RealityChuck Dec 16 2005 12:49 PM

Suit yourself. But you're comparing "more of the same" to "groundbreaking," and the sequel just didn't have the impact the original did.

Edgy DC Dec 16 2005 12:59 PM

Empire was just riffing on the same themes. I list all these new themes (and better) and you say same themes.

Elster88 Dec 17 2005 11:36 AM

What's the point of actually considering other people's arguments when you can just post the same thing over and over?

Vic Sage Dec 19 2005 09:34 AM

the reason that critical opinion has evolved favoring EMPIRE over STAR WARS is that it is... (drum roll, please) ... (wait for it) ...a better movie. Yes, SW had the advantage of being new, for its time. It also had more stilted acting and dialogue, slow expositional sequences, and less impressive effects. EMPIRE uses a non-stop narrative structure, with 2 parallel story lines... one a long chase for the supporting characters (an outward journey, if you will), the other a journey INWARD for the hero... with a convergence at the climax. By moving more quickly, the film has less time to dwell on the wooden characterizations, and more action means less bad dialogue. The film also has a darker edge than the "gee whiz" nature of the 1st. EMPIRE's overriding problem is the one inherent to the middle chapter of any trilogy... it ends before achieving a satisfying climax (which has to wait till the final chapter). Since SW had to be self-contained (with no guarantee there'd ever be sequels), its heroic conclusion gives it a better payoff. EMPIRE holds up better, thus allowing critics time to get past the "fallacy of the new" which overvalues SW, and appreciate the superior story-telling going on in the sequel. Don't get me wrong... i loved SW. Saw it opening weekend at the Loew's Astor Plaza on 44th St in Times Square. When that massive ship came into view overhead, after the opening "Chapter IV" crawl, the place went nuts. and nothing is ever like that twice. But getting past the thrill of nostalgia and taking a hard look at the qualities of the 2 films side-by-side, it seems like no contest to me.

Elster88 Dec 19 2005 09:37 AM

Vic Sage wrote: more action means less bad dialogue Lucas did not write the screenplay for Empire, which also means less bad dialogue.

Vic Sage Dec 19 2005 09:39 AM

true dat. As a screenwriter, Lucas is an excellent director. And as a director, he's a terrific technician. He just sucks with words and actors.