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Mets get LoDuca

What do you think of the LoDuca trade?

I love the LoDuca trade!	3 votes
I like the LoDuca trade.	9 votes
I have no opinion.	8 votes
I dislike the LoDuca trade.	19 votes
I hate the LoDuca trade!	2 votes

Johnny Dickshot Dec 04 2005 06:28 PM

[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/371588p-316146c.html[/url] Mets acquire catcher Paul LoDuca from Marlins By BILL MADDEN Sunday, Dec. 4, 5:52 p.m. Mets GM Omar Minaya has crossed catcher off his holiday shopping list, shunning the free agent market and turning once again to the Florida Marlins in a deal for Paul LoDuca, the Daily News has learned. In exchange for the 33-year-old Brooklyn-born LoDuca, Minaya sacrificed one of the Mets' top pitching prospects, 21-year-old righthander Gaby Hernandez, a Miami high school product, and another minor leaguer pitcher to be named. But LoDuca, who hit .283 with six homers and 85 RBI last season, is regarded as one of the top offensive catchers in the game as well as a team leader and positive clubhouse presence. When the offseason began, Minaya cited a closer, a middle-of-the-order first baseman and a catcher as his top three priorities and he has now satisfied all of them, having previously obtained Carlos Delgado in a trade with the Marlins and signed closer Billy Wagner as a free agent. It was not until a trade to send LoDuca to the Arizona Diamondbacks fell through last week that Minaya went back to his Florida counterpart, Larry Beinfest, to land a first-string catcher to replace Mike Piazza. LoDuca essentially wound up replacing Piazza as the Dodgers' catcher five years ago and was a driving force in their winning of the National League West title in 2003. Then-Dodger manager Jim Tracy cited LoDuca as the Dodgers' team leader and was openly critical of the deal that sent the catcher to the Marlins at the trading deadline in '04. Until the last few days, Minaya had been focusing on the free agent market, particularly Ramon Hernandez and Benji Molina, to fill his catching need. However, he grew impatient when the agents for both catchers kept holding out for three-year deals worth in excess of $7 million per. LoDuca will earn $6.25 million in each of the next two seasons. Minaya also talked to the Devil Rays about their catcher, Toby Hall, but zeroed in on LoDuca when the Diamondbacks-Marlins deal for him was killed because of Arizona's insistence on Florida including substantial cash in it. The trade of LoDuca comes two days after the Marlins sent second baseman Luis Castillo to the Twins for two other pitching prospects. In all, the Marlins have now dealt Delgado, Castillo, LoDuca, Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell in what they have termed a "market adjustment" representing a savings of nearly $70 million. In addition, they are expected to let shortstop Alex Gonzalez go and are actively shopping center fielder Juan Pierre, who will likely be the next to go in a deal at the winter meetings in Dallas this week.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 04 2005 06:30 PM

Heavy price to pay and not the best catcher available IMO. I wonder if they will flip LoDuca in a trade for Vasquez?

GYC Dec 04 2005 06:31 PM

GYC Dec 04 2005 06:32 PM

Rotoworld analysis: [URL=http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?leaguenum=&sport=MLB&id=6032]http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/p...ort=MLB&id=6032[/URL] [URL=http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/371588p-316146c.html]http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_...8p-316146c.html[/URL] ]Paul Lo Duca - C - Marlins Paul Lo Duca has been traded to the Mets for right-hander Gaby Hernandez and a second minor league pitcher, the New York Daily News reports. Lastings Milledge wasn't an option, so the Marlins are doing pretty well to get Hernandez here. They must not have been too interested in either Anderson Hernandez or Jeff Keppinger as a potential second baseman. Since Lo Duca will earn $12.5 million over the next two years, he didn't have a lot of trade value. We wouldn't be completely stunned if this leads to Lo Duca going to the Diamondbacks in a Javier Vazquez deal, but it's more likely that Lo Duca will be the Mets' regular catcher. Dec. 4 - 6:16 pm et Source: New York Daily News

OlerudOwned Dec 04 2005 06:36 PM

I dont mind having LoDuca, but I didnt like him as much as Hernandez and didnt want them to give up a pitcher. Damn.

Edgy DC Dec 04 2005 07:00 PM

Seems the Mets are more willing to grip tightly to the prospects who they made a big commitment to --- big early draft choices and the like --- than to those who've successfully progressed and made an impact as minor leaguers. For what it's worth, Hernandez was as hittable this season at St. Lucie as he was unhittable at Hagerstown. I'll take Frayed Knot's line here:once again, it's the trade that wasn't burning up the rumor mill that goes down.

ABG Dec 04 2005 07:36 PM

How is LoDuca defensively?

Spacemans Bong Dec 04 2005 07:46 PM

Bleh. Not great.

Elster88 Dec 04 2005 07:55 PM

Why do this? There are two better catchers available who you can probably get for about the same money without giving up prospects. What happened to those two offers on the table? Isn't 33 the magic number where non-Piazza catchers start breaking down? Someone start a poll and put me down for a no.

Edgy DC Dec 04 2005 08:08 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 04 2005 08:17 PM

I don't know if this still goes on, but LoDuca used to have a tradition of writing his late mother's name in the dirt at the beginning of each game, as a tribute to her and her contributions for helping him get where he is.

Valadius Dec 04 2005 08:14 PM

I have a feeling this is some kind of signal that Manny's on his way.

Elster88 Dec 04 2005 08:20 PM

I went with dislike. Love the CPF. Request a poll, go to eat some chicken, come back, and the poll is up.

Nymr83 Dec 04 2005 08:20 PM

i dislike the trade. i dont care too much about losing Gaby Hernandez, its just that on top of that LOoDuca isn't worth his salary. LoDuca had ONE good year (in 2000 i think) and has been profiting off it ever since.

Elster88 Dec 04 2005 08:26 PM

Regardless of terming his years as good or bad, LoDuca is one of the better catchers out there. I don't really care so much about losing Hernandez except that we could've got a similar catcher without giving him up for the same money. Even with that I don't care too much except for the fact that I think that similar catcher would be [u:8751595f62]younger[/u:8751595f62]. 33 years old puts fear into me for a catcher, and he'll be 35 when the deal is up.

Nymr83 Dec 04 2005 08:36 PM

he's being given 6 million each of the next 2 years AND we gave a up a decent prospect (i could live with one or the other but not both)....would anyone like to tell me that it wouldn't have been a better idea to offer slightly more than that (say 7 million per) to the similiarly-aged but better MIKE PIAZZA??

Johnny Dickshot Dec 04 2005 08:39 PM

The thing is, it's the $$ saved with Cameron gone, or if you like, Mike Cameron and Gaby Hernandez for Xavier Nady and Paul LoDuca. Nyeh.

seawolf17 Dec 04 2005 08:48 PM

LoDuca in 2005: .283/.334/.380 6 HR in 445 AB (132 G) Ugly. Better on the road (.798 vs .619 OPS), but still ugly. Tenth out of 14 catchers in the majors with at least 450 PA in OPS in '05. (Better than Toby Hall, but not much.) 89 SB vs 29 CS, good for a little less than 25% CS. Better than some, but still in the bottom half of the majors. One good season (2001), ugly since then.

Frayed Knot Dec 04 2005 09:22 PM

- Jeez Omar are you going leave ANYONE in the farm system? That's #s 2, 3, & 4 gone from the BA list that's only 2 weeks old! I think our 2nd best prospect is now that 12 y/o (or maybe he's 16) kid we just signed in the DR. After that comes me. - As I said in the other thread, I'm not too high on the guy. He'd be OK as a half-time catcher but is being paid like a full-timer, and a good one at that. He strikes me as better athletically than most catchers - ie; he can run a bit, bunt fairly well, plus play a few other positions if needed - but never hit as well as that first year and isn't all that great defensively. - I remember the "clubhouse presence" card being played in just about every article following the big Marlin/Dodger trade involving Lo Duca a few years back (as Madden does in this piece) ... and I also remember at least as many pieces from 'Baseball Prospectus' making fun of that angle. - I think the states of NY & Fla have worked out some sort of deal: we give them our retirees every January and our drunk college students every March, and in exchange every couple of years they send us a few of their overpriced ballplayers; Piazza, Leiter, Lo Duca, Delgado, Zeile

Centerfield Dec 04 2005 09:26 PM

This is a stupid trade. I hate it. I hated it before it involved arguably the best pitcher left in our farm system. Right now Florida is ecstatic they weren't asked to pick up a portion of LoDuca's salary. I can't believe we actually gave up prospects for an expensive, 33 year old catcher who had a .712 OPS and is only so-so defensively.

HappyRecap Dec 04 2005 09:35 PM

Man, this was a dumb trade. Age 33 for a catcher is the supposed start of the slide and last year LoDuca hit 6 home runs which might be evidence that the slide started a while ago.

Elster88 Dec 04 2005 09:39 PM

Every post I've read makes me more pissed off at this trade. Maybe Omar can now officially be called reckless. And I get to hear another interview tomorrow filled with "You know what I mean"s. I'd like to trade my vote to hate, an ugly emotion.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 04 2005 10:03 PM

We seem to keep hearing that Omar wants to strike and get something done before something else in the market drives up the price for whatever it is he's shopping for at the moment. He seemed to be right about Wagner (yes, I'm talking 'bout you, Mr. Tom Gordon), and maybe was right about Delgado, too (see the price tags on Thome and Konerko). The rags kept saying he was growing impatient with Benji and Hernandez, and maybe he got a strong impression from their agents or just from the waiting and silence that his 3-year/8-mils per deals to each wouldn't get the job done. That it might take 4 years (crazy for Benji anyway) or upwards of 9 or 10 mils or more for either of them (who would've thought Furcal would've got that much per year? Desperate teams in bidding wars to silly things). So maybe he thought the "price" on LoDuca would go up if he tried to land him after one or both of Benji/Hernandez signed elsewhere. All that nonsense said, I still don't dig it especially. And Knot is dead-on about the LoDuca "heart" angle. After DePo traded him, everyone ripped him to shreads for tearing the heart and soul out of the Dodger organization. Heart and soul apparently doesn't help you throw out runners with a brilliant efficiency or hit for much power. Welcome abordick, LoDuca.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 04 2005 10:13 PM

If you want a bright side, perhaps it's that money angle Seo discussed, and the fact that tho Hernandez, especially and Molina, somewhat, might be better, whoever catches wouldn't be a giant part of the O anywhoo, cost at least much in dollars, more in years, and could ultimately cost a draft pick. Hernandez is a 19-y.o. 3rd rounder, the FA pick you surrender is a 2nd rounder about the same age.

abogdan Dec 04 2005 10:36 PM

Like everyone else, I don't like picking up LoDuca, especially giving up anything of value for him. This pretty much means the Mets will have to make a move now to upgrade at 2B to avoid having a huge hole where the bottom third of the order should be.

Edgy DC Dec 04 2005 10:40 PM

"Honey, I'm replacing Piazza again."

Valadius Dec 04 2005 10:46 PM

Are we going to be getting all of our catchers from the Marlins from now on?

Elster88 Dec 04 2005 11:13 PM Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Dec 04 2005 11:22 PM

I'm curious as to why the people who voted "No opinion" voted as they did. __________________________ This post had the designation 109) Timo Perez. This is a post that got off to a hot start and then felt cocky enough to jog around the forum assuming a home run had been hit.

Nymr83 Dec 04 2005 11:13 PM

you know what else sucks? i'll bet that 2 weeks aho when we made the Delgado deal Omar could have said "oh yeah...and we'll take Loduca's Salary off your hands too" and the Marlins would have smiled and nodded WITHOUT the prospect.

Elster88 Dec 04 2005 11:15 PM

Huh. Excellent point. Hadn't even thought of that.

Valadius Dec 04 2005 11:45 PM

I voted "no opinion" because I can't make any judgments yet. Let's see how Lo Duca produces in a Mets uniform. He's supposed to be a great clubhouse guy and works very well with pitching staffs. He's one of the better catchers in baseball and could very well pan out. Let's wait and see on him.

Nymr83 Dec 04 2005 11:57 PM

hey, i'm all for admitting at the end of the year that i was wrong about a player, but that doesn't mean i won't bash him now.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2005 12:30 AM

Sweeny Murti - appearing on Francesa's 'Mike'd Up' show from the site of the Winter Meetings in Dallas - suggested that there may also be money changing hands on this one. If true, it could be why there's no official announcement of it from either of the involved parties since commissioner approval is needed if the dollar figure is over a certain amount. Depending on the amount it might help ease the sting a bit, plus push the price tag well below that of the two FAs.

cleonjones11 Dec 05 2005 12:31 AM I lke LoDuca

He can catch. He is cheap 2 years 6.5 each. Prospects like Gaby Hernandez are a dime a dozen. Loduca will catch 120 games and costs less than Bengie Molina (inferior IMHO) and Ramon Hernandez equal..GREAT TRADE...Just don't mess with Lastings Milledge though he'll be a Red Sock next week. Now thats a trade for Manny I do not like.

TransMonk Dec 05 2005 01:01 AM

I love the LoDuca trade: a) he's 2-4 million dollars cheaper than Hernandez or Molina b) he's consistent with his average at .285 for his career while hitting .283 last year c) he is a great clubhouse guy and a Brooklyn native d) he has backed up the guy he's replacing at the past 3 All Star games e) upgrade from having to go with Ramon Castro f) certainly a defensive upgrade from Piazza I don't know how people can't be happy with this trade...we are getting another All Star added to the line up for a prospect that may or may not have impacted the team 3 years from now.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2005 01:36 AM

i'll answer point by point, i'm shocked anyone can like this trade... TransMonk wrote: a) he's 2-4 million dollars cheaper than Hernandez or Molina he's cheaper for a reason, that reason being he's not as good. TransMonk wrote: b) he's consistent with his average at .285 for his career while hitting .283 last year haven't we learned by now that a .280 batting average with poor obp and slg doesnt make for a good hitter? TransMonk wrote: c) he is a great clubhouse guy and a Brooklyn native i don't care where he's from, it wont help him hit. as for being a great clubhouse guy, they say that about everyone until the team is losing and then they are all called "clubhouse cancers". TransMonk wrote: d) he has backed up the guy he's replacing at the past 3 All Star games joe girardi made the all star game one year, don't put too much stock in who makes that team. TransMonk wrote: I e) upgrade from having to go with Ramon Castro resigning Mike Piazza would be a larger upgrade, Just because something is an upgrade doesn't make it a smart move. TransMonk wrote: I f) certainly a defensive upgrade from Piazza Really? Loduca seems to be throwing guys out at similiar rates to Piazza, and Piazza always had a good reputation for doing the other things well. TransMonk wrote: I don't know how people can't be happy with this trade...we are getting another All Star added to the line up for a prospect that may or may not have impacted the team 3 years from now. i don't know how you CAN be happy. i don't care if we're getting a guy with an all-star appearence, his stats help win champioships not the all-star jerseys in his closet. whether or not Gaby Hernandez would have "impacted the team" is hardly the point, he had value as a future trading chip which has now been wasted on a guy that i wouldn't have liked even if he came as a throw in in the Delgdo trade (which btw he should have if we wanted him)

duan Dec 05 2005 04:35 AM

the other thing I'm a little worried about is that with the Mets OUT of the market there's little impetus to drive the price of Molina & Hernandez up. Who's looking for a catcher among the 'big' spenders? None of the AL East money, none of the NL East money, not the Cards/Cubs in the NL Central, the ChiSox, Twins or Indians in the AL Central or the Dodgers (Navarro looks like a decent option) and Giants in the NL West, or the Mariners, A's or Angels (who'll take the younger Molina plus Josh Paul if Bengie doesn't hang around!) So who's gonna pay Ramon Hernandez $8 million for 3 years????

Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2005 07:17 AM

"I'm excited," said Lo Duca, who hadn't heard anything official about a trade yet. "It's a team I grew up liking. They were my favorite team and I respect Mr. (Fred) Wilpon, and I respect Omar and Willie Randolph. They've put together a great ballclub. It's exciting to go to New York." I think maybe we did become the MFYs

sharpie Dec 05 2005 08:41 AM

Lo Duca got hurt in August and his numbers were terrible after he came back (the Marlins were in the race or he would've been shut down). He was having a pretty good year until then. He was .309/.363/.408 on August 6 when he got hurt, after that his numbers tumbled. I'm worried about his health as he has missed significant time in each of the last 3 seasons but I'd rather have him than Bengie (tho' not as much as Ramon).

Edgy DC Dec 05 2005 09:04 AM

I think a tendency to miss games is something teams are concerned about with their own players, but not with players they acquire. Call it Sandy Alomar Syndrome. ]he's cheaper for a reason, that reason being he's not as good. That's easy to say but not entirely true. Sometimes a player is cheaper because he was signed under different circumstances.

Elster88 Dec 05 2005 09:08 AM

Is there anyone that likes the LoDuca trade but doesn't like the Delgado trade? Because I think that would make my head explode.

MFS62 Dec 05 2005 09:21 AM

I'd like to know who the "other" minor league pitcher is. Later

Valadius Dec 05 2005 09:22 AM

I'd also like to know why the hell we're sending them two prospects when they're desperate to move him.

Centerfield Dec 05 2005 09:39 AM

Let's hope that Sweeney's report is correct and there is money changing hands. That would certainly make the trade make a little more sense. In any case, if LoDuca is our catcher for next year, like abogdan said, there is some pressure on the Mets now to upgrade offensively either at RF or at 2B. Batting LoDuca, Nady, Matsui, Pitcher in slots 6-9 means we're not going to get a lot of runs from the bottom of our order.

soupcan Dec 05 2005 10:18 AM

Couldn't Piazza have been re-signed for one year at maybe $5 mil? The LoDuca and Piazza numbers are similar and Piazza had 19 HRs last year. Unless Omar is still wheeling and dealing and LoDuca is going to be involved in another trade I'm not sure I understand what he's doing here.

Rotblatt Dec 05 2005 10:43 AM

I actually don't hate this trade. I don't think it was good by any means, but I also don't think it was terrible (I voted no opinion). Lo Duca (.714 OPS in 2005, career OPS+ of 102) will be 35 in the final year of his contract, but we'll probably save at least $1M per year over the next two by signing him rather than Hernandez (30, .772 OPS, 97 OPS+) or Molina (32, .743 OPS, 84 OPS+). We'll also be rid of him sooner than we would either of those two by at least a year. Lo Duca will probably be an average catcher for us, and we have a competent backup in Castro should he be injured. Of course, I'd be happiest if we sent Lo Duca to Arizona for Vazquez, but even if we're stuck with him, I think it's okay.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2005 10:51 AM

Duan has a good point, that the Mets could have let the market come to them. One shopper he does overlook, though, is Colarado, who can come up with money when they want.to.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 10:54 AM

And after the miserable J.D. Closser experiment this year, I think the Rockies are in the market for a catcher.

sharpie Dec 05 2005 11:11 AM

Other NL East catchers: Atl: Estrada (with McCann in the wings) Phi: Lieberthal Fla: Treanor Was: Schneider I'll take my chances with Lo Duca.

smg58 Dec 05 2005 12:02 PM

Don't be surprised if Estrada changes locales this week. The key to whether this was a good deal or not depends on three things: 1. Who's the other prospect 2. Are the Marlins eating some money 3. How much more money will Molina and Hernandez get LoDuca is not terrible but not great, either. It may ultimately boil down to how much money you think a prospect is worth. What is the rule on losing draft picks when obtaining free agents?

Valadius Dec 05 2005 12:03 PM

You know, the comment he made about Arizona being his first choice is very very suspicious...

mlbaseballtalk Dec 05 2005 12:17 PM

Wow, alot of hate for "Lo Duke Of Flushing" (tm) Maybe I should be skeptical, seems like sports radio here in NY like the deal Sure its not the same as the last ex-Dodger catcher by way of Miami, and its possible we have a post-97 Hundley on our hands, but still doesn't seem like that bad of a move Steve

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2005 12:59 PM

"What is the rule on losing draft picks when obtaining free agents?" The team that signs a player loses a draft pick to the team that loses him conditional on: - the team needs to offer arbitration to the player in order to gain the picks ... the idea being that you shouldn't get credit for a guy you don't demonstrate any interest in keeping. Hence we almost certainly will NOT get picks for Piazza leaving because the team doesn't want to expose themselves to a huge 1-year salary by offering him arbitration. We might, however, go that route with Looper. - the "Type" of player being lost. Players are ranked as type 'A', 'B', or 'C' players depending on their stats over the previous 2 seasons. The higher the type, the better the pick you get. FA compensation rules and lists: http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=1768

Zvon Dec 05 2005 03:06 PM

Ive read this as both confirmed and pending today, from different sources. I guess its pretty much a done deal. DeLuca was at the bottom of my list, but he was on it. Hes a good catcher. Im surprised this went down before the winter meetings. I figured Omar was gonna wait it out with Molina and Hernandez. Well,...you snooze,...you loose. Omar aint waitin.

rpackrat Dec 05 2005 03:23 PM

Lo Duca is a better than average offensive catcher and an average defender. His OPS was depressed not only by his August injury, but also by playing in the worst hitter's park in the league. He will be just fine hitting in the 7 spot. Whether or not Omar overpaid for him is another question, but Lo Duca will be just fine as the Mets catcher for the next 2 years.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2005 03:27 PM

Of Met catchers acquired in lopsided trades, the early verdict on Lo Duca for Gaby Hernandez likely ranks it behind Tom Parsons for Grote; Brooks, Winningham, Youmans, Fitzgerald foir Carter; and Preston Wilson & friends for Piazza.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2005 03:37 PM

It's even behind Charlie O'Brien and Kevin Carmody traded for Kevin Brown and Julio Machado, isn't it? Tim Drummond and Mackey Sasser for Randy Milligan and Scott Henion? We have history of winning these things, don't we? I didn't think there was a type of trade the Mets would have a history of winning.

sharpie Dec 05 2005 03:41 PM

Hundley for Cedeno/Charles Johnson; Charles Johnson for Benitez, both of those turned out well.

Zvon Dec 05 2005 03:46 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Of Met catchers acquired in lopsided trades, the early verdict on Lo Duca for Gaby Hernandez likely ranks it behind Tom Parsons for Grote; Brooks, Winningham, Youmans, Fitzgerald foir Carter; and Preston Wilson & friends for Piazza. LOL@Dick^ I assume thats a joke, anyway. I love the trade itself. Havent heard who the second minor leaguer is yet, but the name Gaby and Hernandez just never seemed to go together. Read he's a top prospect of ours out of Miami. That means both players are goin home. LoDuca born in NYC. :) I saw Lo Duca make some great plays for the Dodgers around the turn of the century. I have nothing on how he handles pitchers or baserunners. He should fill that gap for a season or two. He's steady.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 04:02 PM

Preston Wilson, Geoff Goetz, and Ed Yarnall for Mike Piazza was one of Steve Phillips' finest moves.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 06:18 PM

The deal has been finalized.

MFS62 Dec 05 2005 07:07 PM

Don't keep us in suspense. Who is the second player? Later

TransMonk Dec 05 2005 07:12 PM

Nymr83: I still am in favor of the deal. While batting average does not a player make, I was merely pointing out that LoDuca has been consistent over his career with his batting average. He will not hit as many HRs as Piazza or Hernandez or Molina, but he will hit for average and drive in 60 -70 runs hitting in the #6 or #7 slot in the lineup...which is something that Castro or Piazza could not do next year in the same spot. So, yes, he is an upgrade over what the Mets had last year and what they were going to get next year had they signed nobody. I would have been excited with the younger Ramon Hernandez had the Mets signed him, but the offer was there and he didn't bite and I'd rather eat Castro's game soiled jock strap than watch him be the full time Mets catcher. As for re-signing Piazza, I never heard any deal being offered by either party so that is a mute point. LoDuca has averaged more RBI's than Piazza over the past 4 years anyway, even though Piazza has hit over 4 times the HRs. OPS is a neat stat, but driving in more runs than your opponent is how ballgames, and ultimately championships, are won...LoDuca has averaged more RBI over the past 4 years than Hernandez for that matter. As for him being a 3 time All-Star, there is a little more to it than Joe Girardi's token trip. (Although, Joe Girardi has more rings than LoDuca, Piazza, Castro, Hernandez and Molina combined so correlations are up to interpretations). He is a solid player chosen by three different managers to represent his league as an elite player at his position. All star jerseys do not add up to rings, but if being selected had no baring on a player's merit than they would let the idiotic fans choose all of the players. In all, were there slightly better catchers out there? Yes. Better by a huge margin? You're kidding yourself. And it's not as if deals weren't offered. We have holes to fill this winter and we did what we had to do to get one more filled. And I can think of dozens of worse catchers that Omar could have gotten to fill the hole. I'll stick with LoDuca.

Valadius Dec 05 2005 07:24 PM

Omar is insane. He has been quoted as saying he views Lo Duca as a #2 hitter.

OlerudOwned Dec 05 2005 07:26 PM

Valadius wrote: Omar is insane. He has been quoted as saying he views Lo Duca as a #2 hitter. Omar is a puzzling man,

heep Dec 05 2005 07:34 PM

But he is doing a good job.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2005 07:46 PM

RBIs are a team stat. Healthy guys in good lineups tend to get them, not clutch hitters. That said, Piazza and Castro had 103 between them, so I'm puzzled as to why 60-70 would be beyond their reach. Even taking away Piazza's handful of ribbies as a pinch-hitter/designated hitter, the Mets had [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=batting&group=8&seasonType=2&type=type1&sort=RBIs&split=78&season=2005]more RBI from their catching slot[/url] than all but one National League team. 1 Cincinnati 101 2 NY Mets 99 3 San Diego 89 4 Chicago Cubs 85 5 Pittsburgh 81 6 Philadelphia 70 7 St. Louis 70 8 Colorado 68 9 Atlanta 67 10 San Francisco 67 11 Florida 66 12 Milwaukee 65 13 Washington 65 14 LA Dodgers 62 15 Houston 61 16 Arizona 44

Centerfield Dec 05 2005 09:05 PM

To expand on the above: Minaya envisions the three-time All-Star as a No. 2 hitter. Lo Duca, who turns 34 in April, batted .283 last season with six homers and 57 RBI. "He makes contact. We wanted to get more guys to make contract. We struck out too much last year," Minaya said. "This guy's a gamer. This guy's a guy that is going to give you that leadership quality, not only on the field but also in the clubhouse." Obviously Omar thinks we didn't hit into enough double plays last year. Perhaps the only thing dumber than trading for an old, expensive catcher who doesn't hit for power and doesn't walk, would be to slot him in front of Beltran thereby taking away any chance he could steal.

Elster88 Dec 05 2005 09:12 PM

Luckily Omar doesn't make the starting lineup. Unluckily, keeping your old catcher out of the #2 hole is a concept you want your GM to be able to grasp.

Elster88 Dec 05 2005 09:33 PM

]Florida gets two players to be named from the Mets, and the players won't be announced until after Thursday's winter meeting draft. Officials familiar with the trade have identified one as 19-year-old right-hander Gaby Hernandez. Maybe Gaby isn't for sure yet? [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2249038]espn.com article[/url]

Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2005 09:42 PM

There evidently isn't any scratch involved, so perhaps it is someone else. But I doubt it.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2005 09:46 PM

Washed-up homer Marty Noble's take: Mets fan Lo Duca eager to help team 12/05/2005 7:43 PM ET By Marty Noble / MLB.com DALLAS -- A baseball glove was hurled skyward in Queens as midnight approached on Oct. 27, 1986, and a few New York seconds later -- as long as it took for the television signal to reach Phoenix -- a 14-year-old transplanted Brooklynite transformed his bed into a trampoline. Jesse Orosco celebrated the Mets' World Series championship on the East Coast, and Paul Lo Duca did likewise in the desert. Another 20 years almost will have passed the next time another World Series is celebrated. And Lo Duca, a Mets fan of long standing, would like to be significantly more involved in the celebration. He'd prefer to experience the moment firsthand -- or first glove, as it were -- as a matter of fact. It's on his to-do list now that the veteran catcher is in position to catch the deepest rotation in the National League East and take swings in the most improved batting order in the league. A day after the Mets completed their trade with the Marlins -- they acknowledged the deal Monday afternoon, some 22 hours after word of it had leaked -- Lo Duca wouldn't be so presumptuous as to predict the Mets would be play in the World Series. But he was so confident about the Mets' chances that he said, "I'll be disappointed if we don't win the NL East." He noted the acquisitions of Carlos Delgado and Billy Wagner, of course, and spoke of catching potential Hall of Famers Tom Glavine and Pedro Martinez. As he spoke on a conference call with reporters, almost every word supported his first remark -- "I'm excited." The Mets are as well. The Winter Meetings hadn't begun officially, and the club already had accomplished much of what it had hoped to do. "When the offseason began, we had three main priorities -- to fortify our bullpen, add an impact, middle-of-the-lineup presence and solidify our catching," general manager Omar Minaya said. "We feel we have addressed those needs with Billy Wagner, Carlos Delgado and now, Paul Lo Duca." And then Minaya added this footnote -- or was it a warning? "We are not done trying to improve this club," he said. Not done, but according to a member of the Mets contingent here for the annual convention, none of what remains on the Minaya's agenda is the magnitude of any of the three moves already made. "It's more than fine-tuning, but nothing like getting a player who's going to contribute everyday," the source said. Without saying the words, the source essentially reinforced what several members of the club's hierarchy have said since before Delgado was acquired -- the Mets have next to no interest in acquiring Manny Ramirez in the circumstances that currently exist. "If they come to us in February," another executive said last week, emphasizing the Red Sox would have to take the initiative, "and they're not asking for [Lastings] Milledge or [Aaron] Heilman, and they're willing to pay some of what [Ramirez] is owed, then we'd listen." Remarks made by Minaya on Monday certainly didn't contradict that sentiment. "I'm very comfortable with the team we have right now," the general manager said more than once and in more than one way. He said the payroll "could" be increased, but at the same time he said it was "very doubtful" the club would import a second baseman -- via free agency or trade -- and he noted that finances were considered in dealing for Lo Duca. Moreover, a source outside the organization suggested the Mets were intent on moving Kris Benson, not only in exchange for a player they covet but also for payroll considerations. Minaya acknowledged that the Mets' sense of the situation was that either one of the two high-profile catchers -- Ramon Martinez and Bengie Molina -- would have cost them more in dollars and in years of financial obligation than dealing for Lo Duca, who is to earn $6.25 million each of the next two years. He considered Lo Duca "a better option" for other reasons as well, not the least of which is his ability to make contact. Minaya said making out the lineup is manager Willie Randolph's job, but he twice referred to Lo Duca as a No. 2 hitter. Dealing Benson could help the Mets address their two remaining objectives -- an eighth-inning setup reliever and an upgrade for the rotation. The club had targeted Tom Gordon to set up for Wagner, but the Phillies, in need of a strikeout closer for their small park once Wagner accepted the Mets' offer, removed him from the market. The Mets' negotiations with free agent Roberto Hernandez, who filled their eighth-inning role last season, are not progressing. And one of their contingent indicated Monday that the role is more likely to be filed via trade. Alan Hendricks, the agent representing Hernandez, said that "three or four" clubs have outbid the Mets at this point, but called New York "the preferred place to be" for his client, a native son. "I hope they're not depending on that," Hendricks said. Benson could be moved to bring in another starter, Javier Vazquez, the former Expos and Yankees pitcher who had demanded a trade from the Diamondbacks. Martinez's large right toe, a problem last season, became a topic of discussion Monday in terms of Martinez's desire to pitch in the World Baseball Classic. Minaya acknowledged pain and concern still exist. That concern could prompt the Mets to look harder at a deal for Vazquez. The Diamondbacks acknowledged Monday that the Mets are one of "eight or nine" clubs that have expressed interest in Vazquez. The Mets might be saving money where they can to be in better position to assume the obligation of Vazquez's contract. The contract Vazquez signed when he was with the Yankees guarantees him $24 million over the next two years. Benson is to earn $7.5 million each of the next two years and has a $500,000 buyout for 2008. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

Zvon Dec 05 2005 10:10 PM

CBSsportsline: ]Florida gets two players to be named from the Mets, and the players won't be announced until after Thursday's winter meeting draft. Officials familiar with the trade have identified one as 19-year-old right-hander Gaby Hernandez. Hernandez, a 19-year-old right-hander, was 6-1 with a 2.43 ERA for Class-A Hagerstown of the South Atlantic League, then went 2-5 with a 5.74 ERA for Class-A St. Lucie of the Florida State League. He had a combined 131 strikeouts in 135 innings. Lo Duca is owed $6.25 million in each of the next two seasons, which will be paid by the Mets, and Florida remains responsible for the final $1 million of his signing bonus, which is due to be paid Nov. 30, 2008. The article also includes Minaya's 2nd slot quote, and I agree thats crazy. If Randolf bats Lo Duca 2nd Ill eat my 1986 Met 25th anniversary hat. ........I love that hat. Id rather see freakin Beltran batting there. And if we do land Manny, I would think thats where Beltran will bat opening day. (think about it... ) And if we dont, Wright even. Or whoever ends up playing second, if the guy has some speed and good contact. But LoDuca dont bat second. Seventh at best.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2005 10:53 PM

"Don't keep us in suspense. Who is the second player?" The Mets are finally acknowledging the deal but have only said it's for 2 players to be named. They've yet to admit that Gaby is one of them much less who the 2nd is. LoDuca has batted 2nd in the past. It's not surprising to see him mentioned there. As mentioned before, he's not slow and if he gets on base at a decent clip he'd be OK there. I also don't have a problem moving Beltran to 2nd, but it seems like a sizable contingent of Met fans have gotten it into their heads that the #2 slot is destined to be some sort of panacea for Beltran - as if the batting slot should dictate his hitting rather than the other way around - and the idea seems to have sprung from his time in Houston. Thing is, until post-season rolled around, he really didn't hit a ton in the Astros lineup and he was only slotted there because Bagwell & Berkman were already established as the 3 & 4 guys.

Rotblatt Dec 06 2005 10:05 AM

LoDuca batting second is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Didn't Minaya say the exact same shit about Cairo--contact hitter, intangibles, blah blah blah--and we all saw how that turned out. ARGH!!! I'm not saying that LoDuca's going to suck for us, but batting him second is retarded. The worst part is that Willie's probably nodding his fucking head, saying, "Of course he should bat second!" Well, for all those people who were worried about our #6-#8 next year, you can stop now, cause it sounds like there's a decent chance Wright will be #6. Again.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 06 2005 10:12 AM

Wright in 2005 batted 5th more than anywhere else: David Wright's batting order position in games in which he was in the starting lineup. 2004: 2nd, 1 game. 3rd, 18 games. 5th, 13 games. 6th, 22 games. 7th, 11 games. 8th, 3 games. 2005: 2nd, 3 games. 3rd, 4 games. 4th, 3 games. 5th, 76 games. 6th, 34 games. 7th, 40 games.

Edgy DC Dec 06 2005 10:12 AM

Take It Easy. Miguel Cairo has nothing to do with Paul Lo Duca.

Elster88 Dec 06 2005 10:20 AM

]The worst part is that Willie's probably nodding his fucking head, saying, "Of course he should bat second!" And we don't know this for sure either. Willie doesn't seem to dance to Omar's tune, in my eyes, though Willie's own tune could use some tuning.

Centerfield Dec 06 2005 10:53 AM

Um, am I the only one freaking out over the fact that Pedro's big toe still hurts?

Yancy Street Gang Dec 06 2005 10:55 AM

Does it? I wasn't aware of that. That's not good. It is another two months until spring training, but he's already had more than two months to rest it. Yeesh.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 06 2005 10:57 AM

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if we leave Dallas with another starting pitcher, whether Vazquez or Zito or whomever.

RealityChuck Dec 06 2005 11:05 AM

Logically, the second player would seem to be someone affected by the Rule V draft, since they're waiting until after that to announce it. The two options are: 1. It's a player eligible for the draft. 2. It's a player not eligible for the draft, but who would be replacing any drafted pitcher.

Rotblatt Dec 06 2005 11:06 AM

Well, sure, Yance, but that was before we got Delgado, and he STILL spent over 46% of his time batting 6th or 7th. Given how inept Willie proved at setting the lineup last year, I wouldn't be suprised to see him view Reyes, LoDuca, Beltran, Delgado & Floyd as guys who should bat before Wright. After all, he thought that Reyes, Cairo/Cameron/Matsui, Beltran & Floyd should all bat in front of Wright--even at the end of the year--when Wright was clearly the best hitter on our team. It's not really worth getting upset about at this point, but hearing Omar say that he viewed Lo Duca as a #2 guy called to mind all the stupid, shitty moves Willie made throughout the year.

Nymr83 Dec 06 2005 11:09 AM

]but he will hit for average and drive in 60 -70 runs hitting in the #6 or #7 slot in the lineup...which is something that Castro or Piazza could not do next year in the same spot. So, yes, he is an upgrade over what the Mets had last year and what they were going to get next year had they signed nobody. are you actually claiming LoDuca is a better hitter than Piazza, even now? Piazza's OPS+ ('03-'05) 124, 108, 103 Loduca's OPS+ ('03-'05) 92, 99, 92 Castro's OPS+ is 80 career and was 97 last year, (it was insanely high in '03 and insanely low in '04 thanks to small sample sizes.) Piazza is still clearly the better hitter and i'm not sold that LoDuca is some kind of upgrade as a fielder either. as for batting LoDuca second, anyone who tries that should be fired. he has OBPs in the .330's each of the last 3 years, the idea is to get the hell on base for Delgado, Wright, and Floyd, not to bunt Reyes over to 2nd (especially when he can get there on his own.)

Centerfield Dec 06 2005 11:14 AM

Good post 83.

metirish Dec 06 2005 11:32 AM

]Um, am I the only one freaking out over the fact that Pedro's big toe still hurts? I can't find it and I don't remember where I read it but the Mets have had a recent meeting with Pedro regarding his big toe and the WBC........

Centerfield Dec 06 2005 11:34 AM

It's in Marty Noble's article from the previous page.

metirish Dec 06 2005 11:35 AM

yes it is....doh...

Edgy DC Dec 06 2005 11:38 AM

I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'm gonna volunteer my leadership to this platoon. An Army without leaders is like a foot...without a big toe. And Sergeant Hulka isn't always gonna be there... to be that big toe for us. I think that we owe a big round of applause... to our newest, bestest buddy... and big toe... Sergeant Hulka.

TransMonk Dec 06 2005 12:12 PM

Are you actually claiming LoDuca is a better hitter than Piazza, even now? No. But I believe LoDuca will help this club win more in 2006 than Piazza would if we brought him back to catch full time. I think Piazza will make a good DH for a couple more years, but his days as a catcher are over. If that were not true than I'm sure Omar would have at least offered a deal. I agree that LoDuca batting second is a lame idea.

OlerudOwned Dec 06 2005 12:37 PM

TransMonk wrote: Are you actually claiming LoDuca is a better hitter than Piazza, even now? No. But I believe LoDuca will help this club win more in 2006 than Piazza would if we brought him back to catch full time. I think Piazza will make a good DH for a couple more years, but his days as a catcher are over. If that were not true than I'm sure Omar would have at least offered a deal. I agree that LoDuca batting second is a lame idea. I cant help but ignore the conversation and point out you have an awesome avatar.

Edgy DC Dec 06 2005 12:44 PM

You may not know this Olerud, but our wayward poster TransMonk is a rock 'n' roll star --- one who had better be bookin' some east coast dates soon.

Willets Point Dec 06 2005 12:45 PM

A TransMonk sighting! Glory be!

seawolf17 Dec 06 2005 12:46 PM

You may know him better as... Keith Richards.

TransMonk Dec 06 2005 01:19 PM

You see...this is why even though I spend 98% of my time here lurking rather than posting, I would never leave. No where other than the Crane Pool would anyone understand my Eagles of Death Metal avatar and why Fugazi sig lines. Although, I may change my sig line to "Who loves LoDuca, who'll sing his song, I will love LoDuca and his song."

Frayed Knot Dec 06 2005 03:07 PM

Lurk less, post more.

metirish Dec 19 2005 11:10 PM

Sugery article in the NY Times today about Lo Duca... ] The Lunch-Pail Guy Behind the Plate By BEN SHPIGEL Published: December 19, 2005 When the Los Angeles Dodgers traded Paul Lo Duca to the Florida Marlins in July 2004, aftershocks rumbled through Chavez Ravine. So moved by the departure of someone he calls "one of the best people in baseball I've ever met," Manager Jim Tracy wanted to offer a small tribute. Without hesitation, Tracy gave his longtime No. 12 to Steve Finley, who was acquired the day after the Lo Duca trade, and snapped up Lo Duca's old No. 16. John Marshall Mantel for The New York Times Paul Lo Duca's father, Paul Sr., who owns the Brooklyn Cafe in Sedona, Ariz., coached the former Met Lee Mazzilli in Little League and played sandlot ball against Joe Torre. "It was a no-brainer," Tracy, who now manages the Pittsburgh Pirates, said last week in a telephone interview. "Paul Lo Duca is a survivor, he embodies everything you like to see in a winner. I'd still be wearing No. 16 now, but Salomon Torres has it, and I wouldn't take it away from him. But you can bet that if it was available I'd be wearing it." Although the Mets' off-season overhaul has yielded stars like Billy Wagner, an intimidating closer, and Carlos Delgado, a feared power hitter, their acquisition two weeks ago of Lo Duca, a three-time All-Star catcher, could prove just as important in their quest to return to the playoffs for the first time since 2000. The 33-year-old Lo Duca is a more dynamic clubhouse presence than his predecessor, Mike Piazza, and he handles pitchers like a snake charmer, coaxing their best. Lo Duca rarely strikes out, excelling as a situational hitter, and he does not let his ego get in the way of good sense. "He came into my office one day in early 2004 and told me he'd be happy to bat lower in the lineup if it was better for the team," Tracy said. "I mean, who wouldn't want a player like that?" New York loves its larger-than-life figures, but there is still a place for the underdog, the guy who spent nine years in the minor leagues and was thought to be too small (5 feet 9 inches on a good day), too stocky (195 pounds) and too slow to reach the major leagues. If Lo Duca seems a perfect fit on a team with a manager, Willie Randolph, who went to high school in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn, and a general manager, Omar Minaya, who grew up in the Corona section of Queens, there may be cosmic forces at work. Lo Duca was born in the Bensonhurst section of Brooklyn, not far from Lafayette High School, which the Mets' principal owner, Fred Wilpon, attended. Lo Duca's father, Paul Sr., played sandlot baseball against Yankees Manager Joe Torre and coached the former Met Lee Mazzilli in the Gil Hodges Little League. Lo Duca, who wears No. 16 in Mazzilli's honor, jumped up and down on his bed when the Mets won the World Series in 1986. "When Paulie found out he was being traded to the Mets, it was the happiest I'd seen him in a long time," Paul Sr. said. Lo Duca, who is married and has a 1-year-old daughter, moved to Phoenix when he was 2. He still has relatives in Bensonhurst, Rockville Centre, N.Y., and Short Hills, N.J., and he appreciates the folks who run the corner deli and bus the tables and clean the floors because, well, he used to be one of them. "The fans in New York are going to love him immediately, because he's not all about Wall Street or Madison Avenue," said Eddie Bane, the Los Angeles Angels' scouting director, who signed Lo Duca when he was working for the Dodgers. "Paul is someone they can identify with. He's about as genuine and humble as you can get." Growing up in the Southwest did not purge Lo Duca's ties to his birthplace. His parents grew up a half-block from each other in the Gravesend section of Brooklyn and were childhood sweethearts. They instilled within their three sons persistence and determination - and a love for baseball. His mother, Luci, was fiercely protective; even when Lo Duca was living at home while attending junior college, she would call the police if he had not returned by his 11:30 p.m. curfew. A Brooklyn Dodgers fan, Paul Sr. stayed home from school for three days in 1951 to mourn Bobby Thomson's pennant-clinching home run for the New York Giants. In 1974, he moved to Arizona, four months before his family followed, working three jobs, and eventually achieving success with a succession of sports bars in Phoenix. Today he owns the Brooklyn Cafe in Sedona, Ariz. During the early part of his childhood, Lo Duca worked at his father's bar, the N.F.L. Sports Bar, with his older brothers, Frank and Anthony, washing dishes and cleaning glasses. "When you're 8 years old and hanging out in a bar and seeing guys getting drunk, you tend to grow up a little faster than the average kid," Lo Duca said. The bar doubled as a comedy club, and he often served as an M. C., climbing atop a milk crate to introduce acts like David Spade. While Paul Sr. was working 18-hour days, Luci would make sure Lo Duca arrived at his Little League games on time. To improve her son's hand-eye coordination, Luci spent countless afternoons in their front yard pitching pinto beans so he could swat them with a broom handle. After that, she figured, hitting a baseball would not seem so difficult. Lo Duca's keen batting eye helped him emerge as one of Arizona's top high school players. But focused on his size, universities stayed away, so he walked on at a junior college in California. He returned home after a season to play at Glendale Community College, where he was selected as an all-American, but he received only marginal interest from Division I programs. Arizona State, in nearby Tempe, offered to pay for his books. He was responsible for the rest. "We couldn't really afford it, but I knew my chances of playing pro ball were gone if I didn't go," Lo Duca said. "We found a way to do it." He starred in the competitive Pac-10 Conference, batting .446 and setting an Arizona State record with 129 hits. Scouts came out in droves - to watch his teammates - and in the 1993 draft, Lo Duca, the Sporting News player of the year, was taken in the 25th round by the Dodgers. Discuss the Postseason "I wish I could tell you we knew Paul was going to turn out like this, but we had no idea," Bane said. "We were just a hair smarter than everyone else was dumb." Bane figured Lo Duca would be easy to sign. But when Lo Duca, with his father, met Bane at a Denny's and saw the Dodgers' initial offer - $5,000 and a spot on their low Class A team in Great Falls, Mont. - he blanched. Paul Sr. told Luci and she, fuming, said she would handle the talks. The Dodgers soon increased their offer to $28,000 and allowed him to begin in Vero Beach, Fla., against better competition. He batted above .300 in his first two minor league seasons, and the next year, Mike Scioscia, then the Dodgers' catching coordinator, told him to return to Class A to improve his catching techniques. Lo Duca reluctantly went, and he soon learned that Luci was dying of ovarian cancer. It seemed impossible. A devoted fan, she had watched some games from the left-field line because she could not deal with the fans calling her son Dunkin' Donuts and Doughboy. After once hearing such taunts at an Arizona State-Arizona game, she punched out an opposing fan. Lo Duca was prepared to tell the Dodgers that he would not play in the Arizona Fall League, but shortly before Luci died in October 1996, she told him to play the day after her funeral. "That's how she was," said Lo Duca, who marks her initials on his cleats and batting gloves, and before every game he toes her initials and a cross in the dirt. "Until the very end, she cared about everyone but herself." The Dodgers' regime, however, still viewed Lo Duca at the depths of the team's catching hierarchy. He continued improving, however, and made his major league debut in 1998. Still, he never felt he was going to get an opportunity. He even considered quitting a few times, including in 2000, when, after he thought he had played his way onto the opening-day roster, Dodgers General Manager Kevin Malone told him that he was returning to Class AAA Albuquerque as a backup. "I went berserk, tore up the locker room and everything," Lo Duca said. "It took my dad and brother to come to Albuquerque to convince me that I was being stupid. And they were right." When Tracy replaced Davey Johnson after the 2000 season, one of his first acts was to name Lo Duca his starting catcher. "I was taking a big chance," Tracy said, "but my instincts told me that I wasn't going to be wrong." Lo Duca thrived, hitting .320 with 25 homers, and his presence was soon felt behind the plate. In 2002, the Dodgers had the fifth-best earned run average. In 2003, when they scored the fewest runs in the major leagues (574) but still finished 85-77, they had a 3.16 E.R.A., the best in the majors by nearly half a run. Then last season, Lo Duca's only full season in Florida, Dontrelle Willis recovered from a subpar 2004 and Todd Jones rebounded to post 40 saves. It was no coincidence, Tracy said. "I know the Mets have a good pitching staff already, but I'd think Paul being there is going to make them that much better," Tracy said. "That's the effect he has on people." Any doubts? Just ask Tracy which uniform number he prefers. ] Rockin' Doc Dec 20 2005 09:45 AM Metirish, thanks for the article. LoDuca sounds like a great teammate. How can you not pull for a guy like that?