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Who Do You Blame or Credit?

MFS62 Dec 06 2005 06:48 PM

Here's a link to a list of all GMs in Mets history, by year and team record. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/execdb/showteam.php?team=NYM And when you get to that page, there a link to scouting directors. Later

Valadius Dec 06 2005 07:08 PM

The scouting directors, though an incomplete list, is very telling.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 06 2005 07:11 PM

Weiss had the hardest job. He started with less than nothing and by the time he left, the Mets had 69 WS winners already in the organization including: Kranepool Jones Swoboda Koosman Harrelson McGraw Collins all signed as amatuers before 1965; He also drafted Ryan and McAndrew; traded for Cardwell and Grote, and plucked Seaver from Atlanta in 1966 (though really between 65 and 66 Devine was doing most of the work and according to some, it was his recommendation that the Mets match the Seaver offer). Weiss problem was that his teams universally sucked, partly because he was a tightwad and partly because he refused to trade anyone who had value, so a mixed blessing for him. Devine gets a good deal of credit for Seaver, as well as Otis, Garrett and Agee, Weiss, Shamsky, Taylor, Gentry, Dyer. Murphy didn't do anything good but Clendennon. Scheffing did a lot of bad things, as did McDonald but seemed by the time Murphy passed the Mets were influenced increasingly by Grant. Cashen was obviously quite good. Hunicker came in at a bad time; Harazin was a contract negotiator and not a talent guy. Joe MacIlvaine was good IMO, and Phillips tore up his work in pursuit of success in much the same way that Omar is tearing though Phillips/Duquette's successes. Phillips did more hamstringingly bad things than anyone, but I think was creative and meant well. Duquette gets an Incomplete: He was under management's thumb a la McDonald and didn't stay long enough.

TransMonk Dec 06 2005 07:31 PM

I like how they even list the 8 days in November of 1998 when Frank Cashen came back to fill in as interim GM so that Phillips could sort out his [url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/1998/11/16/mets_phillips/]skirt chasing issues[/url]. I guess I forgot that Cashen actually inked the Mel Rojas for Bobby Bonilla II deal. Now that was a true crap for crap deal. Bonilla released after one non-productive year (although he did win the clubhouse poker tournament), and Rojas traded to the Tigers, then released by Detroit in May of the following year.

Zvon Dec 06 2005 07:49 PM

="Johnny Dickshot"] Devine gets a good deal of credit for Seaver, as well as Otis, Garrett and Agee, Weiss, Shamsky, Taylor, Gentry, Dyer. Was Bing also GM for the trade with Washington for manager Gil Hodges? I guess Murphy gets more credit than he deserves for the 69 Mets, but Clendenon was a crucial move.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 06 2005 08:12 PM

Hodges was on Devine's watch, but I understand the Board of Directors liked Hodges more than Devine did when it came to naming Westrum's replacement. That was like "old-time business" going back to Hodges' trade in 63.

Zvon Dec 06 2005 08:22 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Hodges was on Devine's watch, but I understand the Board of Directors liked Hodges more than Devine did when it came to naming Westrum's replacement. That was like "old-time business" going back to Hodges' trade in 63. I could see that.....up until they hit gold in 69 it was all public relations anyway. Dont try and field a winning team, just get the old guys back who the fans will pay to see. If it was on his watch, Ill give him credit for that tho. Bing moves up a notch.

Edgy DC Dec 06 2005 10:50 PM

From what I've read, it seems to me that Weiss had depression (or perhaps, more likely, sensitivity) issues, and I suspect that getting thrown over by the Yankees into this job with a startup team and then getting shafted by the National League --- preventing him from actually getting a few players worth developing in the expansion draft --- threw him a little over the edge. Maybe getting re-partnered with Stengel didn't help. He did do a good job finding some building blocks and protecting them by sending them to the bigs too soon, but his reported clashes with Casey --- who wanted to play more young athletic nobodies and fewere old has-beens --- never really should've happened. A younger Weiss I imagine wouldn't have done that. Joe McIllvaine helped rebuild that pitching staff. All the big names --- not just the 86ers but their high-profile replacements in Cone, Viola, and Saberhagen --- were gone and/or flopped by the end of his era, but he still rebuilt that pitching stafff, not just with the coming troika of Generation K, but with unexpected contributors like Jones, Harnisch, Clark, Byrd, Person, and Mlicki... guys who would all give a decade of solid pitching. McIllvaine like Weiss (not quite, of course) had to dig the Mets out of a big mess that wasn't of his making.

Nymr83 Dec 07 2005 03:57 PM

speaking of Dave Mlicki, his page on baseball reference is unsponsored despit his shutting out the MFYs in the first ever "subway series" game. for the low cost of $10 you can go write and thank him for that fond memory!

MFS62 Dec 07 2005 04:08 PM

Edgy, Despite some of the negative things that may have been said about Weiss, he did make some good decisions about young talent. When the Mets were formed, the “First Year” Rule was in effect. It required all “bonus baby” players signed the previous year to be added to the 40 man roster or be available for drafting by other clubs. (You couldn't keep them in the minors for three years before you added them) One of the players had to be retained on the 25 man roster all season, and only one could be optioned out for more seasoning. The Mets had signed six players who had qualified under this rule. Weiss decided to keep Kevin Collins and option out Cleon Jones. The names of the other four are lost in obscurity, because they never amounted to much (IIRC). Later

Edgy DC Dec 07 2005 04:11 PM

]Despite some of the negative things that may have been said about Weiss, he did make some good decisions about young talent. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

MFS62 Dec 07 2005 04:18 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ]Despite some of the negative things that may have been said about Weiss, he did make some good decisions about young talent. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I know. I was supporting your comments that he was ok. Didn't mean that you said the other things. Later

Zvon Dec 07 2005 04:26 PM

MFS62 wrote: Edgy, Despite some of the negative things that may have been said about Weiss, he did make some good decisions about young talent. When the Mets were formed, the “First Year” Rule was in effect. It required all “bonus baby” players signed the previous year to be added to the 40 man roster or be available for drafting by other clubs. (You couldn't keep them in the minors for three years before you added them) One of the players had to be retained on the 25 man roster all season, and only one could be optioned out for more seasoning. The Mets had signed six players who had qualified under this rule. Weiss decided to keep Kevin Collins and option out Cleon Jones. The names of the other four are lost in obscurity, because they never amounted to much (IIRC). Later fascinating info MFS62. Seriously. Your knowledge runs deep.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2005 04:31 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 07 2005 07:23 PM

Broad statements coming. The circumstances under which Weiss took over the Yankees is a bizarre chapter in that team's history that sure foreshaadows the Bronx Zoo nicely. He's unquestionably one of the great GMs ever. But he has so many parallels, besides greatness, to Branch Rickey. Both were great farm developers, but when dealing with big league talent, seemed to have a de-humanizing patronizing attitude toward them, not respecting the fact that, unlike the minor leaguers they had been shuffling through as farm directors, the big league players had earned a little more respect. Both were kind of paranoid, and both were gentlemanly guys who clashed with their saltier managers. Both were sad figures by the time the game had passed them by in the sixties.

MFS62 Dec 07 2005 04:35 PM

Zvon wrote: fascinating info MFS62. Seriously. Your knowledge runs deep. And then there are times I can't remember what I had for breakfast. :) Thanks, Later

Johnny Dickshot Dec 07 2005 04:35 PM

Weiss actually proposed special relief legislation that in 1963 (or 64?) allowed the Mets and Colts to option 4 players to the minors, rather than 1, for that year only. These rules were very confusing, but from what I understand teams were allowed to change their designated optionee midseason if they wished. The Mets one year (64 I think) switched from Dennis Musgraves to Jim Bethke and back again. As nutty and as dangerous this was for the Mets, Weiss was strongly opposed to the adoption of the amateur draft, as were the reps of all the "rich teams" (Dodgers, MFYs, Cards). They argued it was communistic but meant that it would blunt their financial might.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2005 04:36 PM

If you eat Pop Tarts every morning, you won't have that problem.

Zvon Dec 07 2005 04:47 PM

MFS62 wrote: ="Zvon"] fascinating info MFS62. Seriously. Your knowledge runs deep. And then there are times I can't remember what I had for breakfast. :) I hear ya. I love pop tarts, grew up on em, but they never helped me in the brains department. Well, maybe the ones with frosting did a lil.

MFS62 Dec 07 2005 04:48 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: If you eat Pop Tarts every morning, you won't have that problem. I know. I wouldn't have any problems. I'd be dead. Since I found out I was Diabetic, the one food I gave up that I miss the most is Pop Tarts. (I loved the blueberry and the cinamon ones) If I ever decided to end it all, I'd down a case of the things and enter shock a happy man. But now thatyou mentioned them, I have this craving........ Later

soupcan Dec 07 2005 04:55 PM

I have absolutely no recollection of Hunsicker being the Mets GM.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2005 05:00 PM

You miss my point, Zvon. Eating Pop Tarts every morning doesn't make you smarter, it just makes it easy to remember what you had for breakfast, because it's always the same thing.

Zvon Dec 07 2005 05:12 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: You miss my point, Zvon. Eating Pop Tarts every morning doesn't make you smarter, it just makes it easy to remember what you had for breakfast, because it's always the same thing. LMAO..... point taken.

MFS62 Dec 07 2005 05:23 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: You miss my point, Zvon. Eating Pop Tarts every morning doesn't make you smarter, it just makes it easy to remember what you had for breakfast, because it's always the same thing. I got that, too. Later

Valadius Dec 07 2005 06:15 PM

If there's one person throughout Met history we can blame for anything, it's M. Donald Grant. Period.

soupcan Dec 07 2005 07:16 PM

I have an orange button that reads in bold type in the middle: GRANT MUST GO! Curving around the top of the button in smaller type it says: SAVE OUR METS! Curving around the bottom: REMEMBER TOM! It's an oldie but I love it.

Zvon Dec 07 2005 08:13 PM

I said the 2nd darkest day on this card, but in retrospect, as time passes, it more than likely is the darkest day. I just remember how crushed I was when Hodges died and that holds over. That was such a shock to me. The Mets losing Seaver was definitetly a bigger loss as far as team history goes. The only time I turned my back on the Mets in any way, for any period of time:

ScarletKnight41 Dec 07 2005 08:22 PM

<sniff>