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Pitchers on Defense

Edgy MD Feb 05 2013 02:30 PM

Dumb question: If you were forced by an extra-inning war of attrition to put a pitcher in at another defensive position, is there a reasonable case that can be made for using him at first base instead of at a corner outfield spot? I mean the skills more resemble what he's regularly called on and trained to do --- field short-hop grounders and take throws at first while finding the bag with his feet --- as the fifth infielder that he usually is. The usual move of sticking the guy in left is largely a manager's bow to his own sense of mortality --- he can't hurt me if he doesn't have to field the ball and the leftfielder is less likely to field a ball. But while that's understandable emotionally, is it the only option? Does your answer change if the alternative is to put the pitcher in the outfield and to move to first an outfielder with no professional experience there or anywhere in the infield?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 05 2013 02:32 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

It would all depend on the guy.

Swan Swan H Feb 05 2013 02:41 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

Pitchers shag fly balls all the time. I think they're more comfortable doing that than trying to find the footwork around the base, plus a lot less likely to get their stupid ass run over.

Edgy MD Feb 05 2013 03:07 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

Yeah, they do shag, but not competitively. Fielding grounders and covering first is part of what they do for a living. It might be worthwhile for a manager to take one or two spry young starters and suggest they take infield practice at first on their off days instead of shagging. And then when one of them pull a hammy or shatters a shinbone, they come and beat me down for suggesting it. Anyhow, I played it that way in an internet simulation and R.A. Dickey acquitted himself admirably.

Ceetar Feb 05 2013 03:51 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

depends who you're replacing too. Often you can swap out a scrub outfielder, whereas many first baseman are "win it in one swing" guys who you want to get these late inning AB. But there is probably value in it, not the least of which is pitchers generally have some height too them, allowing them to reach more throws from infielders in all directions. (except down I guess) guillermo mota used to take grounders at short.

Frayed Knot Feb 05 2013 04:50 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

Swan Swan H wrote: Pitchers shag fly balls all the time. Like Mariano ... heh, heh, heh.

Edgy MD Feb 05 2013 05:05 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

Ceetar wrote: depends who you're replacing too. Often you can swap out a scrub outfielder, whereas many first baseman are "win it in one swing" guys who you want to get these late inning AB. The scenario is that you're stuck with the same seven other guys either way.

Ceetar Feb 05 2013 05:12 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: depends who you're replacing too. Often you can swap out a scrub outfielder, whereas many first baseman are "win it in one swing" guys who you want to get these late inning AB. The scenario is that you're stuck with the same seven other guys either way. So you're saying the position player is already burned/hurt/etc? I don't think I'd force an outfielder into the infielder or an infielder into the outfield if I could avoid it. So if it's an OF I'd leave the pitcher there, but if it's the 1Bman out then I'd leave the pitcher there.

Edgy MD Feb 05 2013 05:17 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

This seems to come up more rarely than I realized, at least, when I'm not managing. Last appearance I can find by a Met pitcher playing another position is August 8, 1999, when Bobby Valentine had emptied his bench while getting blown out by the Dodgers. HIs bullpen was spent by the ninth, so rather than give Chuck McElroy a second inning after he had expended 32 pitches in the eighth, he sent McElroy out to left and brought in Matt Franco to pitch. Franco, in giving up one run on a hit and three walks, was the Mets' most successful pitcher on the day. McElroy, for his part, fielded a single and made a putout on a short fly to left center.

vtmet Feb 06 2013 06:21 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

If I was manager and needed a pitcher to play a position, I'd choose 1st base first...especially if it was someone like RA Dickey or Greg Maddux, or a Jonathon Niese... Here's why: A pitcher spends his career relatively unprotected 60 feet 6 inches away from a batter that can smoke a ball right back at his head or body. On top of that, the pitcher barely even has time to get in a set/defensive position by the time that the ball arrives to the batter...In order to not become another Herb Score, they need to rely on luck, lightning fast reflexes, good hand/eye coordination, and good defense... A pitcher is also used to covering 1st base on balls hit to the first baseman or on bunts... Most pitchers are some of the tallest players on their teams, and have long arms...and many pitchers are lefties... IMO, a pitcher is more likely to get injured running after the ball in the OF than playing first base (unless they have a Cliff Floyd moment)...and a pitcher is more used to grounders/linedrives than they are used to having to find high fly balls in the lights/sun 370 feet from home plate... Also, some pitchers were converted infielders (such as Brian Bannister, who I believe was originally a 2nd baseman; and Rick Aguilera, who I believe was originally a 3rd baseman)...and some of these guys, like Ike Davis or Micah Owings, also played 1st base in college on days that they didn't pitch...

dinosaur jesus Feb 06 2013 07:47 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

vtmet wrote: Also, some pitchers were converted infielders (such as Brian Bannister, who I believe was originally a 2nd baseman; and Rick Aguilera, who I believe was originally a 3rd baseman)...and some of these guys, like Ike Davis or Micah Owings, also played 1st base in college on days that they didn't pitch... So you'd make Ike Davis play first? It's worth a shot, I guess.

Edgy MD Feb 06 2013 07:59 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

All of vt's points ran through my head too. But obviously, that's not the way managers play it.

vtmet Feb 06 2013 08:25 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

dinosaur jesus wrote: vtmet wrote: Also, some pitchers were converted infielders (such as Brian Bannister, who I believe was originally a 2nd baseman; and Rick Aguilera, who I believe was originally a 3rd baseman)...and some of these guys, like Ike Davis or Micah Owings, also played 1st base in college on days that they didn't pitch... So you'd make Ike Davis play first? It's worth a shot, I guess. I might have considered 3rd but his left handedness might interfere with his throws to first...speaking of which, Johan Santana played shortstop as a Right handed thrower in Little League before they caught on that he was really a Lefty; and then played Centerfield once he started to throw lefty (and then eventually pitched).

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 06 2013 10:17 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

I don't know this for sure but it's possible managers in such games are reluctant to take out their first baseman, who might be the most likely to end the thing with one swing, than an outfielder, who by the time the pitcher needs to take the field probably entered as a pinch hitter anyway. Obviously that's not how things are drawn up but how they play out. Their "preferences" may be irrelevant.

vtmet Feb 07 2013 07:52 AM Re: Pitchers on Defense

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I don't know this for sure but it's possible managers in such games are reluctant to take out their first baseman, who might be the most likely to end the thing with one swing, than an outfielder, who by the time the pitcher needs to take the field probably entered as a pinch hitter anyway. Obviously that's not how things are drawn up but how they play out. Their "preferences" may be irrelevant. good point...a 1B's bat is often one of the best run producers on a team (if not the best)...and there is often a much weaker bat in the OF...plus, if you play the percentages like Davey Johnson did when he had Roger McDowell and Jesse Orosco rotate between pitching and a corner OF position: If a RH'd hitter is up, the least necessary player on the field is the RFer; and if a LH'd hitter is up, the least necessary player on the field is the LFer (doesn't mean that they won't need to field the ball, but it's either less likely to be hit in their direction or it's less likely to be anything more than a soft single that bounces in front of them or a lazy flyball that even Daniel Murphy could camp under)... You might also argue that the shortstop, 2B or catcher are the weakest bats on a team; but they are also key defensive positions that not only require extra skill but are also the most vulnerable to injury as well...

vtmet Feb 07 2013 08:09 AM Re: Pitchers on Defense

This question does make me wonder... What positions have a player listed as a "pitcher" ever played in a major league game? You know that a pitcher has been used as a corner OFer (both Orosco and McDowell played both LF and RF)...but has a pitcher ever played the infield positions? If so, which ones...Has a pitcher ever put on catcher's gear and been on the wrong side of the batter? Yes, I know Babe Ruth played 1B/RF/LF/CF, but according to Baseball Reference, he didn't play a position until his 5th MLB season (Ruth's first full season as a positional player was in his 6th MLB season, and he still had 133 innings pitched and 12 Complete Games)...plus you also have the former Cardinals pitcher that became a centerfielder because he forgot how to throw strikes... http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ba01.shtml

Chad Ochoseis Feb 07 2013 08:45 AM Re: Pitchers on Defense

Edgy MD wrote: Anyhow, I played it that way in an internet simulation and R.A. Dickey acquitted himself admirably. I'm wondering what assumptions the program would have made about R.A. Dickey's first basiness, given that he's never played there in an actual game. Jim Bouton's coaching nemesis, Eddie O'Brien, was an infielder in 1953, 1955 and 1956, and started a game as pitcher in 1957.

dinosaur jesus Feb 07 2013 09:34 AM Re: Pitchers on Defense

If you go back to the nineteenth century, there were quite a few pitchers who played various positions in the field. Monte Ward played second, third, and short while he was still primarily a pitcher, and became a shortstop when his arm gave out (which means he had some arm strength left). Dave Foutz both pitched and played first base through most of his career, and was excellent at both. A little more recently (meaning the 1910s and '20s), Doc Crandall often played second and short when he wasn't pitching, and Clarence Mitchell and Johnny Cooney played first sometimes, as well as the outfield; Cooney became a full-time outfielder. I'm sure you could find more examples from those days. As far as pitchers playing catcher, my guess is that you'd have to go a long way back to find that happening. Too dangerous.

MFS62 Feb 07 2013 02:46 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

Clint Hartung, the "Hondo Hurricaine". He came up in 1947 ans was listed as a pitcher. He had twice as many games as a pitcher than he had as an outfielder in '47 and '48. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Hartung Later

vtmet Feb 07 2013 03:18 PM Re: Pitchers on Defense

If you go back to the nineteenth century, there were quite a few pitchers who played various positions in the field. Monte Ward played second, third, and short while he was still primarily a pitcher, and became a shortstop when his arm gave out (which means he had some arm strength left). Dave Foutz both pitched and played first base through most of his career, and was excellent at both. A little more recently (meaning the 1910s and '20s), Doc Crandall often played second and short when he wasn't pitching, and Clarence Mitchell and Johnny Cooney played first sometimes, as well as the outfield; Cooney became a full-time outfielder. I'm sure you could find more examples from those days. As far as pitchers playing catcher, my guess is that you'd have to go a long way back to find that happening. Too dangerous. thanks for the info... I just found an interesting article from Bleacher Reports (yes, I know Bleacher Reports) titled: The Top 12 Pitchers that became Positional Players... http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7379 ... on-players First guy that they mention is Monte Ward (who I have to admit that I never heard of before reading your reply)...Apparently, at age 20, he pitched the 2nd Perfect Game in MLB history (1880) and then 7 seasons later, led the league in steals with 111 steals...