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Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

metirish Jun 03 2013 07:43 PM

Interesting article Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster Why Do the Mets Have a Triple-A Team in the Desert? By BRIAN COSTA LAS VEGAS—For Mets minor leaguers, the last stop before the majors is a dilapidated ballpark 2,200 miles away from Citi Field. It is nestled along a row of abandoned lots and boarded up storefronts 5 miles north of the Las Vegas Strip, just past a motel sign that reads "Elvis Slept Here." Cashman Field is the home of the Las Vegas 51s, the Mets' new Triple-A affiliate. And for a Northeast team whose rebuilding plan hinges on the development of its young pitchers, there is no worse place to be. "Basically, I can define it as the worst pitching place imaginable," reliever Greg Burke said. "It's ridiculous how dry the balls are," top pitching prospect Zack Wheeler said. "It's hard to get a good grip on it." "They got no water out here," manager Wally Backman said. The arid conditions, which in no way prepare pitchers for those they will face in New York or in most other major-league cities, not only make it hard for them to grip the ball. They make the field so dry and slick that grounders that should be easy outs routinely skip past infielders. They make the ball carry so far that pop flies become cheap home runs, even with an outfield wall that is 20 feet high all around and 433 feet from home plate in center field. They make Mets executives, minor-league coaches and players alike wonder how much of the results they're seeing are real and how much are a desert mirage. The implications are significant, both in terms of player evaluation and player development. This all begs an obvious question: What are the Mets doing here? The answer begins with the nature of the business of minor-league baseball. There are 30 Triple-A affiliates, most of which are independently owned, and 30 MLB teams. The MLB teams choose the players, manager and coaches for the affiliates, making promotions or demotions as they please. The affiliates sell tickets and sponsorships and manage the daily operations. Only a handful of team-affiliate agreements expire each year, and if one of them isn't renewed, it creates a game of musical chairs. Las Vegas is the chair no team wants. And the Mets have become the fanny no chair wants. "They're undesirable," said Dave Rosenfield, a longtime Norfolk (Va.) Tides executive. "Nobody wants them." Rosenfield was Norfolk's general manager when it became the Mets' Triple-A affiliate in 1969 (it was named Tidewater then) and was still on the job when the Mets left in late 2006. Only a one-hour flight from New York, Norfolk was perfectly suitable for the Mets. And for decades, the two got along well enough. But Rosenfield said the relationship soured after Jeff Wilpon became the Mets' chief operating officer in 2002, after which communication with team officials became "virtually nonexistent." "When he became involved in everything was when things changed," Rosenfield said. "I dealt with him on some things and somebody always had to go to him if you wanted to do anything. He had his nose and hands in everything." Through a spokesman, Wilpon declined to comment. The Mets released a statement that read: "The limited number of affiliate arrangements and options do create some challenges, all of which are surmountable. We are seeing progress in the performance of our minor-league teams and our players' development throughout our entire system." Clearly, though, having a Triple-A affiliate in such an unusual baseball environment makes player evaluation harder, not easier. "Performance out there requires a certain amount of interpretation," Mets general manager Sandy Alderson said. "It's like using metal bats in college. It can be a real test for pitchers, but the ones that survive it, we have a little more confidence in." The Mets have instructed their Triple-A pitchers not to worry about their results. But for pitchers vying for a promotion to the majors, that is easier said than done. As much as the challenges of pitching here can build mental toughness, they can also prompt pitchers to make adjustments that can hinder their development. "It changes your mind-set," Burke said. "You get in situations where you're like, 'I'm not looking for a double play here. I need to strike this guy out because I'm afraid of him putting it in play.'" A watered-down playing surface would help allay those concerns, but with only two groundskeepers, there isn't much the 51s can do. Marty Brown, who managed the Toronto Blue Jays' Triple-A team in Las Vegas the last two years, said he would often have to water the field himself. During the ninth inning of one game, he said the sprinklers went off and groundskeepers were nowhere to be found. With puddles forming around his pitcher, he picked up a rake and started to repair the mound. "Those things happen there," Brown said. Don Logan, executive vice president of the 51s, said staffing is dictated by the team's landlord, the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority. "I don't complain, because it doesn't do you any good," Logan said. "But any baseball guy knows that this place has some real holes in it." Las Vegas may be a paradise for hitters, and for those in need of a confidence boost, playing here isn't such a bad thing. But even for them, there is a downside. Gaudy as their numbers may be, Mets officials are more prone to discount them. "You just look at the batting averages and cut 15 to 20 points off," Mets manager Terry Collins said. Another problem for hitters: Unlike most ballparks, the 30-year-old Cashman Field, the fourth-oldest of 30 Triple-A stadiums, doesn't have an indoor batting cage. Hitters who want extra practice must leave the stadium and hit in an outdoor cage alongside the parking lot, where the afternoon temperature is often over 100 degrees. "There are two types of amenities: player-development amenities and fan amenities," Logan said. "And we're lacking in both." Lastly, there is the inconvenience of having to shuttle players back and forth across the country, which can delay the availability of a player by an extra day. Since 1963, only one other organization has had Triple-A affiliates farther from home (the Miami Marlins briefly had theirs in Edmonton and Calgary). Two of the Mets' division rivals, the Atlanta Braves and Philadelphia Phillies, have their Triple-A teams within 70 miles of their home stadiums. In the Norfolk Tides, the Mets had a close affiliate for decades. When Norfolk spurned the Mets' offer to renew their contract in 2006, the Mets moved their Triple-A team to New Orleans—which, like Las Vegas, plays in the Pacific Coast League. Norfolk signed with the Baltimore Orioles. Two years later, the Mets jumped at the chance to move to Buffalo—which, like Norfolk, plays in the East Coast-based International League. But the Mets had issues in Buffalo from the outset. Injuries at the major-league level coupled with a lack of minor-league depth left Buffalo with a barren roster in 2009. The Bisons finished with the worst record in the league (56-87). In an attempt to salvage the relationship, the Mets loaded up on minor-league free agents the following winter—which, incidentally, is how they came to sign R.A. Dickey, the 2012 National League Cy Young Award winner who is now with the Toronto Blue Jays. Buffalo reupped for another two years in July 2010 and, according to a person familiar with the matter, likely would have done so again in early 2012, when the Bisons were off to a winning start. But the Mets waited and the Bisons imploded, finishing in last place. "Basically, they wanted a winner in Buffalo," Alderson said. Buffalo dumped the Mets for the Blue Jays. Meanwhile, the Rochester Red Wings, who the Mets viewed as a possible fallback option, renewed their contract with the Minnesota Twins. The Mets had no choice but to move to the one place they had hoped to avoid: Sin City. A new ownership group plans to move the 51s to a new stadium in a nearby suburb, but that plan is contingent on gaining approval for some degree of public financing. The earliest a new park could open is 2015, the year after the Mets' deal is up. Alderson said it is conceivable the Mets could stay in Vegas for more than two years. But players would no doubt welcome a return to the friendlier confines of the International League. After several years in the PCL, Burke, who is now in the Mets' major-league bullpen, recalled the feeling of pitching in Norfolk when he was in the Orioles organization last year. "It was awesome," he said. "It was different. It felt like real baseball again." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... hare_tweet

Ceetar Jun 03 2013 07:51 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

I think inferring that the Mets only got Dickey to make their AAA affiliate happy is a bit much, but yeah, interesting to hear more about Vegas.

metirish Jun 03 2013 07:54 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Yeah the Dickey comment jumped out at me too....but fuck that, worrisome to hear the pitchers hate it there....

Ceetar Jun 03 2013 08:25 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

metirish wrote: Yeah the Dickey comment jumped out at me too....but fuck that, worrisome to hear the pitchers hate it there.... on the other hand, tell the minor league journeyman types to stop bitching and pitch. Everyone (besides WFAN callers) knows it's a hitters environment and they look at your performance with that grain of sand.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 03 2013 08:32 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

I’ve had this exact conversation with a good friend/Mets fan a few months ago. We were baffled and for all the reasons given in the article posted above, could not come up with even one reason as to why the Mets would locate their AAA affiliate in that environment. In fact we couldn’t understand why any team, but especially an east coast team would place their AAA affiliate in Vegas. Of course, we didn’t know about the musical chairs dynamic to AAA baseball, and that essentially, one team has to play there. On another note, the article suggests that Jeff Wilpon, immediately upon assuming greater responsibilities with the franchise, destroyed an almost 30 year relationship with the Mets most logical AAA affiliate ever, Tidewater/Norfolk. Why am I not surprised? For most of my Mets rooting life, Tidewater/Norfolk was the most consistent, most reliable aspect about the Mets franchise. There used to be a bar in the Hamptons named The Tidewater, supposedly after the Mets farm team. And though I had driven past it more times than I can recall, I never went in the joint.

Ashie62 Jun 03 2013 09:07 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Gambling and hookers...party!!!

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 03 2013 09:21 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Yup, I think the Wilpons' practice of cutting every corner caught up to them. In the big picture it's not a huge deal, and probably these situations aren't entirely their fault, but it would be nice to once again be the kind of franchise that minor-league cities would want to partner up with.

Frayed Knot Jun 03 2013 10:06 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

We were baffled and for all the reasons given in the article posted above, could not come up with even one reason as to why the Mets would locate their AAA affiliate in that environment. In fact we couldn’t understand why any team, but especially an east coast team would place their AAA affiliate in Vegas. Of course, we didn’t know about the musical chairs dynamic to AAA baseball, and that essentially, one team has to play there. Yeah, let's not forget that it's not a unilateral decision here. The only big league club I know of that outright owns their own AAA affiliate and can therefore place it anywhere they want (subject to Int'l Lg approval) is the Braves and even they rode out for years in what was often called the worst AAA city/stadium in the east (Richmond, VA) before building a stadium in the northern suburbs of Atlanta. Richmond's facility was considered so sub-par for AAA that they're now fielding a A-ball level club. That LV, NV is a ... different kind of environment for minor league ball is hardly news as are several of the PCL cities (and even more Cal Lg sites) although there are plans in the works for a new stadium. A new crib won't change the weather but at least the facilities will be upgraded. It's the Jeff comments which, if true, are the most interesting part of that story although, keep in mind, that exactly ONE person is quoted here so that doesn't really establish anything as a proven fact. The NYM/Binghamton relationship is still running and is one of the longest running of any team/affiliate in any league (as was Norfolk/NYM before it ended). And the movement of Norfolk to the Orioles camp had more to do with the Norfolk owner wanting to vertically integrate his teams as he already had two or three other affiliates in the Baltimore chain. Maybe Jeff truly is an asshole and that played a role in the Norfolk break as well but, even if so, it wasn't the only factor.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jun 03 2013 10:21 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Frayed Knot wrote: It's the Jeff comments which, if true, are the most interesting part of that story although, keep in mind, that exactly ONE person is quoted here so that doesn't really establish anything as a proven fact. Plus, it's not like stories about Jeff micromanaging or organization-wide communication issues have been widely rumored and often reported during the last 5-10 years or so.

Ceetar Jun 04 2013 05:06 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: It's the Jeff comments which, if true, are the most interesting part of that story although, keep in mind, that exactly ONE person is quoted here so that doesn't really establish anything as a proven fact. Plus, it's not like stories about Jeff micromanaging or organization-wide communication issues have been widely rumored and often reported during the last 5-10 years or so. also, that time period was (and probably still is) a time period when most companies were looking to micro manage a little more (and started to have more and more ability to do so thanks to computers and what not) And also a time when the product the big clubs were loaning these affiliates was becoming worth more and more.

metsmarathon Jun 04 2013 06:50 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

maybe part of the solution is to take the AAA out of las vegas, and promote another city, or get another city started up. i think, personally, that northwest new jersey is a largely untapped baseball mecca, and the mets most logical location for their AAA club is sussex county's own skylands park, currently unused.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 04 2013 06:52 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

metsmarathon wrote: maybe part of the solution is to take the AAA out of las vegas, and promote another city, or get another city started up. That's been my thought too.

Ceetar Jun 04 2013 07:06 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Benjamin Grimm wrote: metsmarathon wrote: maybe part of the solution is to take the AAA out of las vegas, and promote another city, or get another city started up. That's been my thought too. Can they do that? (I mean, it's MLB, they can do anything, but..) Aren't technically the teams/leagues all independently run? You'd have to force the Vegas owners to move (which, they're talking about) or find a new owner and force them out, but that might not be MLBs call. Also, while Vegas adds dryness, the inflated offense stuff isn't exactly unique to there. the PCL is a mess of that.

Frayed Knot Jun 04 2013 07:08 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 04 2013 07:15 AM

But that idea [responding to marathon & Grimm] fails the same logic as [BatMags] wondering why the Mets "chose" to put their team in LV. One simply can't TAKE the team out of Vegas and decide to put it somewhere else. Some guy/corp, one who presumably likes having it right where it is now, owns the team and has an ongoing franchise with the PCL. So first you'd have to convince said owner to sell, but even then once that happened it's going to be to some other guy with a site and stadium already in mind that meets the approval of the PCL. Something tells me that site is NOT going to be in northern New Jersey nor is the PCL simply going to hand one of their franchises to what is essentially their rival Int'l League. The AAA teams are where they are and there's virtually nothing the ML clubs or even league as a whole can do to change them.

Lefty Specialist Jun 04 2013 07:12 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

metsmarathon wrote: maybe part of the solution is to take the AAA out of las vegas, and promote another city, or get another city started up. i think, personally, that northwest new jersey is a largely untapped baseball mecca, and the mets most logical location for their AAA club is sussex county's own skylands park, currently unused. I went to that ballpark when it housed the New Jersey Cardinals. Nice enough place, don't know if it'd be suitable for an AAA club. The Somerset Patriots ballpark is really nice, but they seem to be doing just fine as they are. Either of these options would run into the 75 mile rule. Remember the Mets screwed the Yankees a few years ago when they wanted to move their AAA team to Newark for a year while Scranton/Wilkes-Barre was being rebuilt. The Mets said no (for no really good reason), so it's an absolute guarantee that the Steinbrenner Yankees would screw them right back.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 04 2013 07:14 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Is there anything stopping the International League from adding two franchises? If they offer a better stadium, market, or whatever, then teams are less likely to get "stuck" with a PCL franchise that they don't want. If the International League and the Pacific Coast League are really "competitors" (and I don't know if that's true or not) then the IL should recognize that the PCL is offering a less desirable product and take advantage of that.

Frayed Knot Jun 04 2013 07:24 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Is there anything stopping the International League from adding two franchises? If they offer a better stadium, market, or whatever, then teams are less likely to get "stuck" with a PCL franchise that they don't want. Well, there's an overall 'umbrella' organization that runs minor league baseball as a whole. In that way the PCL & Int'l leagues are rivals in a similar way that the NL & AL are, point being that we're not going to see one league steal from, or voluntarily hand over to, a couple of teams from the other in either the majors or the minors. I think what the problem is that there seems to be a slight mis-match (by like maybe one or two) in the number of east & west cities between the majors and the highest minors so that one eastern ML team seems to get stuck with a western affiliate. I don't see any easy solution to that, but on the other hand I also don't think it's a huge problem even though it winds up being not the ideal solution for one unlucky team at a time.

Edgy MD Jun 04 2013 07:27 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Yeah, the point is worth making that the Mets lost a game of musical chairs, and that's not entirely their fault, but neither is it not. The product degraded, and the partners noticed. But it's overstated. They're probably not the team nobody wants, so much as the less desireable in context. I mean, of course Buffalo wants to affiliate with Toronto. That said, the first thing I do as commissioner is end the practice of affiliation agreements. They're bad for baseball and bad for America. And Canada and probably a few other countries. A new crib won't change the weather but at least the facilities will be upgraded. Well, I would imagine that it could change at least some of the effects of the weather. Better irrigation and such. If Bob Hope can play golf in the drylands, the Mets can play baseball. The Mets are not expected to grow flowers in the desert, but they can live and breath and see the sun in wintertime. Seriously, I fully expect a replay of the Mets' affiliation with New Orleans, where they said all the right things about being happy to affiliate with this neglected jewel of a AAA franchise and then got the hell out as soon as an International League affiliate became available.

metsmarathon Jun 04 2013 07:55 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Frayed Knot wrote: But that idea [responding to marathon & Grimm] fails the same logic as [BatMags] wondering why the Mets "chose" to put their team in LV. One simply can't TAKE the team out of Vegas and decide to put it somewhere else. Some guy/corp, one who presumably likes having it right where it is now, owns the team and has an ongoing franchise with the PCL. So first you'd have to convince said owner to sell, but even then once that happened it's going to be to some other guy with a site and stadium already in mind that meets the approval of the PCL. Something tells me that site is NOT going to be in northern New Jersey nor is the PCL simply going to hand one of their franchises to what is essentially their rival Int'l League. The AAA teams are where they are and there's virtually nothing the ML clubs or even league as a whole can do to change them. rules, logic, feh! i want baseball in the unused perfectly nice stadium just up the road from my house, damnit! (it's probably only suitable for A-league ball, given its size, but still. this is all about my own convenience!) 75 miles? from new york? sussex county is a world away from new york! ok, so it's 45 miles. i'm sure the yankees would be more than happy to saddle the mets with new jersey...

Gwreck Jun 04 2013 08:27 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Lefty Specialist wrote: [Either of these options would run into the 75 mile rule. Remember the Mets screwed the Yankees a few years ago when they wanted to move their AAA team to Newark for a year while Scranton/Wilkes-Barre was being rebuilt. The Mets said no (for no really good reason), so it's an absolute guarantee that the Steinbrenner Yankees would screw them right back. There is no 75 mile rule. The territories that the Mets/Yankees have joint veto power over (specifically, for the placement of additional major or minor league teams) is the 5 boroughs, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and Rockland; lower Fairfield county in CT; and Bergen, Hudson, Union and Essex counties in NJ.

metsmarathon Jun 04 2013 08:41 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

sussex county, your time is now!!!

Mets – Willets Point Jun 04 2013 08:48 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Gwreck wrote: lower Fairfield county in CT; I'm curious where the cutoff line is for this.

Swan Swan H Jun 04 2013 08:53 AM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Gwreck wrote: lower Fairfield county in CT; I'm curious where the cutoff line is for this. When I see 'Fairfield County' I am often reminded of the radio commercials that ran during Mets games and implored you to visit your "New York, New Jersey and Fairfield County Chrysler dealer."

Nymr83 Jun 04 2013 01:06 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Could the Mets just say "fuck you" and sign a development agreement with the Long Island Ducks? How does the level of play in the Atlantic League compare?

Edgy MD Jun 04 2013 01:11 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

I imagine the Atlantic League takes the unaffiliated status of their members as a distinguishing qualification.

Nymr83 Jun 04 2013 01:31 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Edgy MD wrote: I imagine the Atlantic League takes the unaffiliated status of their members as a distinguishing qualification. Perhap$ the Wilpon$ could help them otherwi$e di$tingui$h them$elve$

Ceetar Jun 04 2013 01:39 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Nymr83 wrote: Could the Mets just say "fuck you" and sign a development agreement with the Long Island Ducks? How does the level of play in the Atlantic League compare? to Triple-A? It's not even close. That'd be a disaster for the Mets. Now, could they convince the Yankees, Phillies and Red Sox to take over the Bridgeport Bluefish, Camden Riversharks and Newark Bears (Actually I think the Bears dropped from the Atlantic league, but same point) in a development agreement that raises the level of play for the Atlantic league or hell, create a whole new league? Go out to Metsmarathon's backyard, build another stadium,have the four teams share a huge complex and play each other. Everyone's fairly close to home. the minor leaguers don't need to waste time on buses and travel and can just focus on getting better and they never have to lookup where the nearest Chipotle is cause they'll already know (or really, if you're building a new complex, put one in)

Gwreck Jun 04 2013 09:18 PM Re: Las Vegas: The Mets' Minor Disaster

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Gwreck wrote: lower Fairfield county in CT; I'm curious where the cutoff line is for this. South of I-84 and West of Route 58.