Master Index of Archived Threads


He says it now, but will he mean it later?

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2013 09:33 AM

Carlos Beltran Could See Himself Going Into Hall Of Fame As A Met Also, don't count your chickens ....

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 17 2013 09:34 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Who cares

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2013 09:36 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Who cares Who do you think you are? Me?

TheOldMole Jul 17 2013 10:09 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Who cares Couldn't this legitimately be said about every post on every sports forum?

Frayed Knot Jul 17 2013 11:23 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

TheOldMole wrote: Who cares Couldn't this legitimately be said about every post on every sports forum? In the whole 'what sports arguments mean in the grand scheme of life on this planet' point of view? -- Sure. But, even considering that as a starting point, I've always thought this topic to be particularly inane. Too many seem to take this whole 'what you go in as' discussion way too seriously and this is all assuming for the moment that we know Beltran is even going to get there (hardly a slam-dunk). A player gets elected for the totality of his career and not just a specific portion of it. If the hat on the plaque (and really that's all this is about) shows a KC logo as opposed to a NYM one it doesn't mean he was any less a Met or that he'd be any more of one if we reverse the case. ALL the teams he played with are still going to be listed either way and Met fans (the ones who don't already hate him anyway) will still be able to claim that another player from their team is going into the HoF. For the record, he spent more time as a NYM than as a Royal and, even with all that DL time thrown in, still had slightly more games played and ABs as well. I'm sure with the time spent being so close the poobahs at Cooperstown will allow him leeway in how he wants it displayed but I, for one, won't be fretting the decision or opt to think of him any differently based on his choice.

Ceetar Jul 17 2013 12:08 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Frayed Knot wrote: A player gets elected for the totality of his career and not just a specific portion of it. If the hat on the plaque (and really that's all this is about) shows a KC logo as opposed to a NYM one it doesn't mean he was any less a Met or that he'd be any more of one if we reverse the case. I'm just concerned, hell they've already re-issued it, that the Mets themselves won't honor him properly if/when he does get in. They should retire 15 and given history it seems the only real shot of that is if he goes in as a Met. So much of it's perception though. And it's one of the few things that anger me about how other people are fans. We gave Mike Piazza a curtain call for his SECOND home run of the day against us with the Padres in his return. Carlos Beltran should've gotten at least that honor at the freaking All-Star Game.

Edgy MD Jul 17 2013 12:11 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I think the point is that the logo on the hat doesn't mean he "goes in as" a Royal or Met or Giant or Cardinal or Orix Buffalo at all. It's a just a bronze snapshot, imperfectly representative of his career. It doesn't mean his name is forever linked in Heaven exclusively to that employer alone.

Mets – Willets Point Jul 17 2013 12:15 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Reissuing a uniform number does not preclude it from being retired. For example, Ray Borque wore the number 7 for the Bruins until the day it was retired for Phil Esposito. Borque handing over the jersey was part of the retirement ceremony.

Ceetar Jul 17 2013 12:19 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Edgy MD wrote: I think the point is that the logo on the hat doesn't mean he "goes in as" a Royal or Met or Giant or Cardinal or Orix Buffalo at all. It's a just a bronze snapshot, imperfectly representative of his career. It doesn't mean his name is forever linked in Heaven exclusively to that employer alone. sure, but I think the Mets might see it that way. Alex Anthony gave the nice pause for emphasis before announcing Beltran but no one really took the hint. Mets – Willets Point wrote: Reissuing a uniform number does not preclude it from being retired. For example, Ray Borque wore the number 7 for the Bruins until the day it was retired for Phil Esposito. Borque handing over the jersey was part of the retirement ceremony. who knows, Maybe the Mets sign him up again! I'm just over-analyzing the Mets thought process regarding it. They obviously didn't re-issue 31 and you think someone, somewhere, would have the thought "Hey, we've got plenty of numbers and Carlos Beltran is one of the best Mets ever..maybe hold it a bit while we mull it over." This is premature, but when Beltran does retire which is probably a couple of years away, if d'Arnaud is awesome are you going to take it away from him? Will he give it up ala John Franco?

SteveJRogers Jul 17 2013 12:32 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Yeah, you are doing a bit too much over thinking with this there Cee. Yes Beltran belongs on the top of a conversation among the best offensive Mets of all time, but there are a ton of factors why he isn't as beloved among Met fans. This conversation probably is better off being had when he finally hangs it up. As far as keeping #15 out of circulation? Same thing, I think fans would be all "FOR HIM, REALLY!?" Doesn't have the same reverence yet that Jose Reyes would have. Fans complained for years about the hot potato-ing of #18 and #16, and even Keith himself has opined about the lackluster assignments #17 has received since he last played for the team. For whatever reason, Beltran never reached that level of importance by fans to be annoyed at the flotsam and jetsam that have worn the uniform number since Beltran left. FWIW, its a shame Reyes is on the shelf, THAT would have been an interesting crowd reaction to gauge.

Edgy MD Jul 17 2013 12:40 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Reyes Shmeyes. Many of us come from a generation shocked to see Ed Kranepool's number re-assigned in it's first free year to Hubie Brooks. A small generation. And shocked to a minor degree, but...

cooby Jul 17 2013 12:42 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Well, there were so many less things to shock us back then...

SteveJRogers Jul 17 2013 12:43 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I'd be shocked to find ANYONE holding #7 in such reverence after Kranepool left! Still kind of shocked that there are those clamoring that the Mets throw it on the wall in Kranepool's honor actually.

Edgy MD Jul 17 2013 12:46 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

It's a wonder any of us can breathe, what with all this shocking going on.

Centerfield Jul 17 2013 12:54 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Carlos Beltran was one of the best Mets ever. I loved watching him play and rooting for him while he was here. I don't know if he will make the Hall of Fame, but I hope he does, and I hope he has a Mets logo on his plaque. It bothers me that so many Mets fans gripe about him and remember him for one at-bat. I think it's wrong. I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings. So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary.

Frayed Knot Jul 17 2013 02:24 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 17 2013 02:32 PM

Cee - how the Mets wind up eventually honoring Beltran (or not) is a call they'll have to make at some point. If it turns out that they base that decision on what his plaque at Cooperstown looks like then shame on them and direct the anger that way, not to the plaque. CF - I share your Carlos attitude, as well as bafflement at both the contemporaneous and continued negativity, but I don't see how this is affected by the plaque (if indeed that's what you're saying by "it matters", I can't tell).

dgwphotography Jul 17 2013 02:27 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Centerfield wrote: Carlos Beltran was one of the best Mets ever. I loved watching him play and rooting for him while he was here. I don't know if he will make the Hall of Fame, but I hope he does, and I hope he has a Mets logo on his plaque. It bothers me that so many Mets fans gripe about him and remember him for one at-bat. I think it's wrong. I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings. So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary. I really like how you think :-)

Mets – Willets Point Jul 17 2013 02:56 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Centerfield wrote: I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings. So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary. I agree with this, only I want Agbayani and Shinjo to come back for this World Series winning team as well.

Swan Swan H Jul 17 2013 03:02 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Centerfield wrote: I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings. So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary. I agree with this, only I want Agbayani and Shinjo to come back for this World Series winning team as well. But not Dickey. JCL can only rein in one runaway ego on the starting staff at a time.

Nymr83 Jul 17 2013 03:31 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Olerud and Alfonzo too, please.

Vic Sage Jul 17 2013 03:54 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Beltran had 3 great years for the Mets, and 1 crappy one, and 3 partial seasons (2 interrupted by injury, 1 by trade). By that standard lets retire Olerud's number too. He had 3 great years, too. How about McReynolds? Cliff Floyd? Robin Ventura? Rusty Staub? There have been many good players who passed thru NY and put up 3,4,5 good-to-excellent seasons. That didn't make them Mets you paint on a wall forever. Yes, in the end, Beltran will have been a better player than all of those, but he played for 2 teams before us, and 2 teams after, and he's not done yet. He is an excellent ballplayer who broke down on his way through town. That he's probably the best CFer we ever had says more about the history of Met CFers than it does about Beltran. Yes, maybe he's a HOFer... i hope that for him -- but he holds absolutely no place in my heart, except as the avatar of a team that didn't make it over the hump. He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement. In the end, I don't hate him for the strikeout. I don't hate him at all, actually. But watching him watch strike 3 was an exemplar of his Mets career and his passivity as a player. It just crystalized my feelings about him, it didn't cause those feelings. And, personally, i don't want to have to be reminded of him every god damn time i look at the outfield wall. But hey, i guess that's just me.

Ceetar Jul 17 2013 06:05 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Carlos Beltran is 3rd in (batting) WAR by Baseball-Reference. 4th in Fangraphs (Jose jumps him) Sure, you could make the case that he wasn't a much more successful Met than Jose or Fonzie, but the Hall of Fame thing takes that to another level imo. You're not retiring his number just because he's a Mets legend, but because he's a baseball legend. Alfonzo is not. Reyes, well, is active. so is Wright. Strawberry (and Gooden) are always straddling that line it seems. You could certainly retire those, but those are mostly past decisions. I think eventually 17 will get retired bolstered by the added value on the broadcast team. But it's not just that Beltran was the Mets best center fielder, he was probably the best in the game during the last decade. He's 8th in WAR among center fielders...that's All-Time. (at least half the games there) Mays, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle, Griffey, DiMaggio, Lofton, Beltran, Snider, Ashburn Oh, and btw, he's not done yet. He'll probably pass Lofton by the time this season is over. WAR tries to take into account defense and speed, but he's 29 all-time by OPS+ which ain't bad certainly. Oh, and he's one of the best base stealers ever. He's one of only 8 guys to hit 300 HR and steal 300 bases. He's the greatest postseason hitter ever. I mean, the guy's a legend that played more time with the Mets than any other team and gave them his best years. What exactly does a guy need to do to get his number retired around here?

d'Kong76 Jul 17 2013 06:30 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Ceetar wrote: What exactly does a guy need to do to get his number retired around here? Not sure we want to know the answer! Have heard whispers they want you un-retire Gil's number since he can't get into the HOF.

seawolf17 Jul 17 2013 06:38 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I loved Carlos, and would love to have him back. But I don't know he did enough to retire 15. If that 2006 team had won something? Maybe.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 17 2013 06:43 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Ceetar wrote: You're not retiring his number just because he's a Mets legend, but because he's a baseball legend. Oh, that's weak. Why don't we retire Andy Pettitte's number while we're at it? He was good and played baseball.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2013 06:47 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

"Pettitte's got nothin' on me. And I played for the Mets. Retire my number, Jeff!"

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2013 06:51 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

"And what's with all this talk about retiring Gary Carter's number? What the hell did he ever do for the Mets that I didn't do ten times over? Retire my number, Jeff!"

Frayed Knot Jul 17 2013 06:56 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Now that this has devolved from a HoF/team discussion into a uni number thing, just let me state for the record (once again) that I'm against retiring just about everyone's number. Seaver's was a no-brainer and I'm fine with Hodges. After that, get back to me in 2021 when Wright retires. Every other number gets put back into circulation.

seawolf17 Jul 17 2013 07:01 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I'd retire Koosman before Beltran. (And I wouldn't retire Koos either.)

Edgy MD Jul 17 2013 07:17 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I'm for retiring that ugly championship trophy with all the flags.

Ceetar Jul 17 2013 07:56 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ceetar wrote: You're not retiring his number just because he's a Mets legend, but because he's a baseball legend. Oh, that's weak. Why don't we retire Andy Pettitte's number while we're at it? He was good and played baseball. Not a Mets legend. There aren't a lot of them, but when you get all-time greats that play their best years and the most years for your club? Or what? It's all about championships? That's awfully shallow no? It certainly wasn't his fault they didn't win one.

d'Kong76 Jul 17 2013 08:06 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Retire Krane's ... he played for them for like 50 years!

Gwreck Jul 17 2013 09:26 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Vic Sage wrote: Beltran had 3 great years for the Mets, and 1 crappy one, and 3 partial seasons (2 interrupted by injury, 1 by trade). By that standard lets retire Olerud's number too. He had 3 great years, too. Olerud did have 3 good seasons. Beltran had three outstanding seasons. Comparing those three years, Beltran was more than 3 WAR better. How about McReynolds? Cliff Floyd? Robin Ventura? Rusty Staub? There have been many good players who passed thru NY and put up 3,4,5 good-to-excellent seasons. None of those players could hold a candle to Beltran. Seriously? That he's probably the best CFer we ever had says more about the history of Met CFers than it does about Beltran. Rubbish. Total and complete rubbish. Beltran is one of the best centerfielders to ever play baseball. Mays, Cobb, Griffey, Speaker, Mantle, Dimaggio...and then Beltran, probably. Yes, maybe he's a HOFer... i hope that for him -- but he holds absolutely no place in my heart, except as the avatar of a team that didn't make it over the hump. He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. I don't even know how to respond to this other than to say it's total nonsense.

Gwreck Jul 17 2013 09:30 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Ceetar wrote: And it's one of the few things that anger me about how other people are fans. We gave Mike Piazza a curtain call for his SECOND home run of the day against us with the Padres in his return. Carlos Beltran should've gotten at least that honor at the freaking All-Star Game. Just remember - those who turned up to honor Beltran upon his return to New York got a no-hitter as a bonus.

Ceetar Jul 17 2013 09:48 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Gwreck wrote: Ceetar wrote: And it's one of the few things that anger me about how other people are fans. We gave Mike Piazza a curtain call for his SECOND home run of the day against us with the Padres in his return. Carlos Beltran should've gotten at least that honor at the freaking All-Star Game. Just remember - those who turned up to honor Beltran upon his return to New York got a no-hitter as a bonus. good point.

dgwphotography Jul 18 2013 07:56 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired.

Frayed Knot Jul 18 2013 08:10 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

dgwphotography wrote: I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired. And even then, for me, honorees need to have spent the majority of their careers as a Met (and preferably a large majority) - so no Carter, no Mays, no Keith (he falls short on both standards) and it would be fine with me if they put #31 back in circulation as well.

Edgy MD Jul 18 2013 08:14 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Well, spending the majority of your career with a team generally means you get the hat-on-the-plaque thing. If it's a well-travelled guy, the hat usually goes to the team he spent the plurality with. So there's a distinction, but it's not vast.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 18 2013 08:19 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Really thinking about Beltran, his HOF cap logo should be this: Seriously, his career isn't defined so much by his employers, but by who he chose to employ him.

Ceetar Jul 18 2013 08:23 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Really thinking about Beltran, his HOF cap logo should be this: Seriously, his career isn't defined so much by his employers, but by who he chose to employ him. who he formally chose to employ him anyway.

Gwreck Jul 18 2013 11:51 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

dgwphotography wrote: I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired. Exactly, exactly. At the risk of sounding heartless, it's time to put #8 back in circulation.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 18 2013 12:01 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Vic Sage wrote: He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement. You're entitled to your usually-on-point opinion, Vic, but... come on, man. "Disinterest?" For a guy who played his best years for us with degenerating-to-nonexistent knee cartilage? Come on, man. I'm not sure I'd wave the flag for 15 on the wall, but I sure as hell wouldn't have a problem with it.

Edgy MD Jul 18 2013 12:07 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

If I put up a photo essay of Carlos Beltran making an effort, the page would be about 12 feet high. Associating the failure of a team to win a championship with the lack of effort by particular players is retrofit analysis.

Ceetar Jul 18 2013 01:02 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Edgy MD wrote: If I put up a photo essay of Carlos Beltran making an effort, the page would be about 12 feet high. . And Carlos would be scaling to to rob a home run.

Centerfield Jul 18 2013 01:31 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Gwreck wrote: dgwphotography wrote: I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired. Exactly, exactly. At the risk of sounding heartless, it's time to put #8 back in circulation. And there, you have two examples of why it (meaning which team on the plaque) matters. It may be arbitrary, but such is the nature of fandom.

Centerfield Jul 18 2013 01:32 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Vic Sage wrote: He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement. You're entitled to your usually-on-point opinion, Vic, but... come on, man. "Disinterest?" For a guy who played his best years for us with degenerating-to-nonexistent knee cartilage? Come on, man. I'm not sure I'd wave the flag for 15 on the wall, but I sure as hell wouldn't have a problem with it. He also played with a broken face. I don't see the disinterest at all.

metsmarathon Jul 18 2013 01:32 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

all i'll say about beltran is, the man goes out there, breaks another mans face with his own face, forcing that other man to miss hte remainder of a season, and all he misses is like two days? and that man is accused of not trying, of not caring? fuck that.

metsmarathon Jul 18 2013 01:33 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Really thinking about Beltran, his HOF cap logo should be this: is the B for Blame?

Swan Swan H Jul 18 2013 01:35 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: If I put up a photo essay of Carlos Beltran making an effort, the page would be about 12 feet high. . And Carlos would be scaling to to rob a home run. I think Ceetar's crush on Beltran might top Edgy's crush on Recker (but not mine).

Frayed Knot Jul 18 2013 03:21 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Centerfield wrote: And there, you have two examples of why it (meaning which team on the plaque) matters. It may be arbitrary, but such is the nature of fandom. It matters only if one views the hat on the plaque as the final definition of being, or not being, a Met. I simply don't see it as an either/or thing. We can (and have ... and currently are ... and probably will again in the future) argue over which numbers should be retired. I just don't like the idea of tying it all to the plaque.

Centerfield Jul 19 2013 07:52 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I think I'm being unclear on my point(s). They are as follows: 1. Beltran is and was a terrific player. He is one of the greatest of all time, a borderline Hall of Famer, and he was great when he was here with the Mets. I'm disappointed he isn't appreciated more than he is. I get that some saw him as disinterested. I didn't see that at all. If anything, I saw a guy who was perhaps too sensitive to criticism. But it definitely seemed to me that he cared. 2. I am a fan of Beltran. Therefore, I hope he gets elected to the Hall of Fame. I hope when he gets elected his plaque bears the logo of the Mets, a team of which I am also a fan. Because of that, the topic of this thread matters to me. To some, the team that his plaque bears is criteria used to determine whether or not his number is retired by the Mets, an additional honor. So for those guys, the topic of this thread matters even more. 3. I agree that the plaque shouldn't be a brightline rule as to whether a number should be retired or not. I'm not sure I have a concrete rule for this. By it's nature, it's a matter of opinion. I don't know that I would retire Beltran's number. Even if his HOF plaque had a Mets logo. As much as I love Beltran, I am leaning toward no. However, I do think that Piazza's should be retired. And to illustrate that I don't think the HOF thing should go hand-in-hand with the number-retirement, I thought it would have been a great, GREAT move for the Mets to announce that they were retiring his number immediately after he fell short of the vote. I think it would have been a great show of support for a Mets great and a giant fuck you to the BBWA. If the stars were to align, and through some glitch in the system, I ended up as the owner of the Mets, I would first remove the orange dot from the hats, but my second move would be to announce Piazza's number would be retired. Then at the ceremony, I would introduce Piazza as follows: "Hey baseball writers, fuck you. That's right, fuck you. This is what I think of your voting: (I would then pull out a copy of the results, place it in front of me and mimic coitus.) This is the greatest hitting catcher of all time. He defined the Mets for nearly a decade. Brought them to the post-season twice, and a World Series. He also hit the single most important home run in New York history. Without him those teams would not have finished over .500 once. So fuck you baseball writers (mimic coitus again). We know a Hall of Famer when we see one. Congratulations Mike." (Then I would pull up my pants and go sit down).

Ceetar Jul 19 2013 08:11 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Centerfield wrote: However, I do think that Piazza's should be retired. And to illustrate that I don't think the HOF thing should go hand-in-hand with the number-retirement, I thought it would have been a great, GREAT move for the Mets to announce that they were retiring his number immediately after he fell short of the vote. I think it would have been a great show of support for a Mets great and a giant fuck you to the BBWA. I think doing so at the end of the year is a similar show of support. The Mets had their hands full with All-Star Festivities, and I certainly would've made more of the MHOF induction thing as part of it, but they didn't send out the press release until I was literally on my way to the Futures game, and that makes it sound to me like they didn't talk with Piazza about it until he showed up for the festivities. I think having their hands full with jumping through hoops for MLB sorta put the Piazza thing on the back burner a little bit in a "worry about it in the second half" way. But they haven't reissued 31 and they certainly induct guys without retiring numbers, and it's different groups that decide, so I think it's going to retired as part of this ceremony.

Edgy MD Jul 19 2013 08:31 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

They had a Mike Piazza Day a month or so after he broke the home run record for catchers. Having another to induct him into the MHoF, and another to retire his number spreads it out like jelly. A cynical way to pack more people into the most cynical ballpark in the Major Leagues, methinks.

Vic Sage Jul 19 2013 08:37 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 21 2013 10:12 PM

He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement. as long as we're clearing things up, i've taken a bit of shit for this statement which none of you seem to have understood. I didn't say, assert or even imply that Beltran was disinterested or didn't give maximum effort, as a factual matter. I said that MY OWN PERSONAL AESTHETIC JUDGMENT of his easy effortless style of play was that it "smacked of (i.e., appeared to be, seemed like) disinterest and lack of passion", and projected an overall sense of passivity to his game which didn't APPEAL to me on an aesthetic basis. And that is not "retrofitted analysis", its an emotional reaction to his style of play that i came to at the time. I simply use the Called Strike 3 as metaphor for his irritating passivity, not as specific causation of anything. It's just a symbol, at least for me. You all want to point to specific reasons why you think my emotional response to his game is "wrong", so go right ahead. I haven't disputed it or debated it, since I was making no factual assertions, just expressing my feelings about the aesthetics i prefer to see in baseball, and so are not a subject of debate anymore than anyone else's feelings are. That i don't appreciate a player with the same fervor as you doesn't make my feelings "wrong". But returning to the issue at hand... Yes, Beltran played hurt and played very well in NY -- HOF well -- for 3 years (after a fairly crappy 1st year), until the injuries cost him 1/2 of each of the next 2 seasons, and we traded him in the middle of the following one. So we're talking about putting a guy on our wall who played 3. Great. Seasons. I'd add that he only led us to one (unsuccessful) post season during his 7-year Mets career, but that would be misleading. He never led that team at all, which was well noted at the time. Look, if he gets to go to the HOF, it won't be a controversial decision, and good for him. And if his plaque portrays him with a Mets cap, i could care less one way or the other. But if i have to stare at #15 on the wall every time i go to the park, or watch on tv, I will have to close my eyes, lay back and think of Grote.

Swan Swan H Jul 19 2013 08:52 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Edgy MD wrote: They had a Mike Piazza Day a month or so after he broke the home run record for catchers. Having another to induct him into the MHoF, and another to retire his number spreads it out like jelly. A cynical way to pack more people into the most cynical ballpark in the Major Leagues, methinks. I'm holding lots of days to honor Mike Makes for good advertising I gotta handle fans just right You know what I mean The stadium has lots of restaurants Still the place is quite empty His 31 is still in doubt Is it our next honoree? Let’s get cynical, cynical I wanna get cynical, let’s get into cynical Let me hear your wallet talk, your wallet talk Let me hear your wallet talk

Ceetar Jul 19 2013 08:59 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Do we not count half seasons? Only full seasons in which you contribute count? No one carries a team to the postseason by himself, but Beltran's superhuman effort in them almost carried them to the World Series. And the drop off in competitiveness with his half seasons should certainly be noted as well.

Frayed Knot Jul 19 2013 09:40 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Half-seasons count. In fact they count just about half as much as full seasons.

Vic Sage Jul 19 2013 11:56 AM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

As John Sickels said in a recent column about our catcher of the future, d'Arnaud: "Staying healthy is a tool (or a skill); either way it is a factor, especially for a player in a demanding defensive position." So yes, of course Beltran gets credit for the half seasons, but he also shares the responsibility (with god, the fates, his parents, and/or medical science) for all the games he missed, too. As for those 1/2 seasons, 1 of them sucked, the other 2 were excellent, although the last one was in RF, not CF, since he had no knees left. In any event, we went nowhere with or without him, except in his near-MVP year of 06. Was our lack of post-season success his fault? Were the collapses of `07 and `08 his fault? Of course not. But he was an integral part of those heartbreaking teams that faded twice in late and close races with the Phils after falling to the Cards in 06. That's not a career you write songs about. That's not Paul Bunyan type stuff. That's a great player passing thru town on his way to Cooperstown, putting up some noteworthy numbers for a few years, and yet his signature moment was watching a curve ball for strike 3, and his lasting contribution to the franchise may be that he netted us Zach Wheeler. And i should get all choked up about this guy, so much that i want his number emblazoned on the stadium wall? Yeah, no thanks.

metirish Jul 19 2013 12:02 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

But Vic, perhaps Beltran would like to receive a golden shower from you...

Centerfield Jul 19 2013 12:37 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Typical Vic. Always talking about his FEELINGS.

Edgy MD Jul 19 2013 12:51 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

If I created a photo essay of Carlos Beltran's signature moments, the post would be about, well, 10 feet high.

Ceetar Jul 19 2013 12:52 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Edgy MD wrote: If I created a photo essay of Carlos Beltran's signature moments, the post would be about, well, 10 feet high. It'd resemble Tal's Hill.

Swan Swan H Jul 19 2013 01:25 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Memories are funny. What percentage of Mets fans think of the K against Wainwright first when Beltran's name is mentioned? I bet it's very high, and rightfully so. It was almost certainly the defining moment of that Mets era, and the impact that one at bat had was quite powerful. But that's not what I think of when I think of Carlos Beltran. My father died suddenly on July 6, 2007. The wake was held the next night, and when it was over the family and several friends went back to the house my parents shared with my sister and her family. Now, Beltran was my dad's favorite Met at the time. He always liked the players with the combination of power and grace - Jaromir Jagr was his favorite Ranger at the time, and you often heard the same sort of comments about the way Jagr played the game that you heard about Beltran. Anyway, we get back to the house, and the Mets game is still going. And going. Then, in the fourteenth inning Luke Scott hits a blast to center, and Beltran makes the greatest play of his Mets career, that stumbling catch going up Tal's Hill with two on and two out, and it saves the game. This was big - the Mets were in first place, three games up on the Braves at the time. Then, in the top of the seventeenth he drives in the go-ahead run, Wright plates an insurance run, and Wagner comes on for the save. I still don't think Beltran's number should be retired, for almost exactly the reasons Vic states, and because I think there are other guys who deserve it more. But, I think about that night a lot. I cheered for him on Tuesday, and if they did retire his number I would definitely be there, on my feet and cheering again. [youtube:10k31n6c]m5T_WGR0q8I[/youtube:10k31n6c]

dgwphotography Jul 19 2013 06:17 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

I think of the catch, too. I just thought of it again this morning when I saw Carlos Gomez make almost the exact same catch on MLB Network...

Zvon Jul 19 2013 06:35 PM Re: He says it now, but will he mean it later?

Swan Swan H wrote: Memories are funny. What percentage of Mets fans think of the K against Wainwright first when Beltran's name is mentioned? I bet it's very high, and rightfully so. It was almost certainly the defining moment of that Mets era, and the impact that one at bat had was quite powerful. But that's not what I think of when I think of Carlos Beltran. My father died suddenly on July 6, 2007. The wake was held the next night, and when it was over the family and several friends went back to the house my parents shared with my sister and her family. Now, Beltran was my dad's favorite Met at the time. He always liked the players with the combination of power and grace - Jaromir Jagr was his favorite Ranger at the time, and you often heard the same sort of comments about the way Jagr played the game that you heard about Beltran. Anyway, we get back to the house, and the Mets game is still going. And going. Then, in the fourteenth inning Luke Scott hits a blast to center, and Beltran makes the greatest play of his Mets career, that stumbling catch going up Tal's Hill with two on and two out, and it saves the game. This was big - the Mets were in first place, three games up on the Braves at the time. Then, in the top of the seventeenth he drives in the go-ahead run, Wright plates an insurance run, and Wagner comes on for the save. I still don't think Beltran's number should be retired, for almost exactly the reasons Vic states, and because I think there are other guys who deserve it more. But, I think about that night a lot. I cheered for him on Tuesday, and if they did retire his number I would definitely be there, on my feet and cheering again. [youtube]m5T_WGR0q8I[/youtube] Great post. I remember the catch in Shea in front of the yellow NIKON section of the outfield wall. I can't find the catch online. Most graceful robbery I have ever seen. Still, the taking of the third strike always rears its ugly head in my ugly head.