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Minaya's Achilles Heel.

Mex17 Dec 17 2005 07:24 AM

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/story/375429p-319060c.html "Omar Minaya, who indicated he may add to the bullpen solely through signing veterans to minor-league contracts, has started to follow through on that prediction." The guy is great at making the big exspensive splashes but it it starting to become clearer to me that he is not quite as adept at the finer details of contructing a good team. For example, the $2 million that was pissed away on Valentin and Franco should have been spent on Roberto Hernandez instead. Now it appears that he is going to compond that error by even the likes of Seaez, Tavarez and others for the friggin Darren Olivers of the world. How many leads will be blown before the ball can be put into Wagner's left hand in 2006? I am beginng to fear that the answer to that question will cost this team dearly.

Bret Sabermetric Dec 17 2005 08:29 AM

What's the typical cost of one of these contracts? My instinct is to oppose this type of move, on the grounds that it uses up a roster spot in which a young pitcher can be brought along gradually at a limited risk, and the grounds that it also wastes money above and beyond what the younger pitcher would command. But I'm not sure how much more a typical has-been like Oliver gets for mop-up work. Anyone know last bullpen salaries off-hand? Mop-up work is why I call the one or two final spots on a staff "limited risk." You're not looking at blown leads so much as you're risking a couple of blowout losses that, maybe, in a good year, you could mount a comeback in, given quality relief work. I mean, just how often do you expect to see an Oliver in there protecting a small lead? If it's a lot, then WWSB isn't using his bullpen correctly.

smg58 Dec 17 2005 09:05 AM

On one hand, the Mets got Roberto Hernandez by looking for cheap bullpen options. On the other hand, they also got Mike DeJean, Mike Matthews, and Danny Graves and Shingo Takatsu in midseason. I've got no problem looking at extra guys, and long as the younger guys in the system (people like Ring and Bell) have a fair chance to compete and earn quality innings.

Frayed Knot Dec 17 2005 09:07 AM

Tough to knock Minaya for looking to sign veterens on one hand and then knock him for not keeping Robo Hernandez on the other when Robo was exactly that sort of signing.

old original jb Dec 17 2005 10:04 AM Minaya's Achilles heel

It's called hindsight, Frayed. Hindsight. Minaya's Achilles heel is that, compared to us, he lacks hindsight.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 17 2005 10:26 AM

I'm sure if we hunted around we'd find the very same reservations about Hernandez last year at this time that some are making now about Oliver. At any rate, I didn't have any expectation Hernandez was going to shine like he did and if the Mets did, then why on opening day did they go to Aybar and Koo to protect a late-inning lead? Last year the Mets took NRIs like Matthews, Aybar, Stewart & Hernandez to camp, along with ?s like Koo, Heredia, Strickland, Hamulack, etc etc... While the majority didn't work out, I don't think that was the plan anyway: One did, and he was bargain. Unless you count Ginter, who was traded for another bullpen candidate with options, these guys ultimately didn't cost any young players an opportunity with the team. At worst they delayed them, but I think that's a function of managing their options. This discussion from the start belongs in the "rest of the bullpen 2006" thread

Bret Sabermetric Dec 17 2005 10:29 AM

Can we address the issue here? To me, the problem is that we don't know (I don't) the advantage in loading up your roster with relatively expensive veterans in minor roster spots, not only the bullpen, but scrubbini roles such as Woodward and Ice filled last year. I'd like to know (I guess I could visit bbref to see) what such guys earned last year, but if it's a whole lot more than the Mets could have paid some minimum -salaryrookies, I have to find philosophical fault with the thinking, on the grounds outlined above. Carrying four or five rookies (not the same ones) all season long, running an ongoing tryout camp, giving them some MLB experience, etc. seems virtuous in itself, since they have a high upside when one of them turns out to be better than you'd thought (which only rarely happens with veterans) but when you combine the advantage in terms of budget this could give you, I'm even more for it. If you're paying a couple of million for five roster spots, that allows you to eat a salary or two, or overspend on an important spot where you need help.

Frayed Knot Dec 17 2005 10:33 AM

btw, this line from Rubin which opens that DN piece: "Omar Minaya, who indicated he may add to the bullpen solely through signing veterans to minor-league contracts, has started to follow through on that prediction." ... means looking at non-tendered and otherwise unattached vets as an alternative to paying big bucks for those currently out on the FA market. I mentioned in another thread that Omar claims that the FA guys are "all looking for 3 years" and sees the spare parts as the more flexible alternative. And, seeing as how these would be minor league "make-good" deals, whoever's picked up would at least theoretically be competing w/youngsters for the fill-out positions in the pen as opposed to just being handed them at the expense of up-and-comers.

Frayed Knot Dec 17 2005 10:46 AM

"I'd like to know (I guess I could visit bbref to see) what such guys earned last year, but if it's a whole lot more than the Mets could have paid some minimum -salaryrookies, I have to find philosophical fault with the thinking, on the grounds outlined above. " No one in the pen last year - aside from Looper - was making a whole lot. You'll find some salary under both Graves & Takatsu's name but their orig clubs paid most of that. Hernandez was a sub-mil pickup who essentially had to prove himself (and did so to the tune of a $3mil deal w/Pittsburgh); DeJean was making $1mil+ (off a decent half year) but was dumped early and cetainly didn't hold anyone back; Koo, Aybar etc were only somewhat above the ML min (for some reason Met fans tend to think of Asian players as if all are high-priced/high expectation imports); and then Heilman, Bell, Ring, etc were at or near ML min.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 17 2005 10:59 AM

I honestly don't think what they co$t is the real issue, but without making an argument as to a superior strategy, realize there's a cost in any in any scenario: Shuffling young guys up and back starts the clocks on arbitration, burns options and 40-man slots, and has payroll implications that, percentage-wise, are often a bigger leap.

Bret Sabermetric Dec 17 2005 11:42 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 17 2005 12:34 PM

I didn't mean to imply that rookies are free. But deciding, based on what your own eyes tell you as opposed to what a solid ass-covering mlb record tells you, on an unknown kid because you've got competent scouts does save some money on balance, and you often hear (around here) that some major move (like signing Delgado last winter) can't be done because of financial constraints. And no, I don't believe for a minute that the Mets outbid the Marlins by significantly more than tax differential between FLA and NY, so could you please give me a pass on that issue in this thread? Thanks. I was just giving you a for-instance. I shd look up the bench and mopup squad numbers. The total may surprise you. Or me. OE: fixed incoherent grammar. Also am adding obvious point that I like MLB records, but if the veteran is relatively cheap that sorta automatically means that his good MLB record isn't very recent (that's why he's cheap) and may be blowing a kiss in the direction of the past's ass.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 17 2005 11:49 AM

I think also that a lot of the contracts these nontendered vets sign are so-called "split" contracts that provide for different pay structures depending on where they wind up, suggesting that taking them up is not primarily driven by cost. The only time I know where cost became a real issue regarding Major v. Minor guys was in 1979 when Nelson Briles & Bobby Valentine were whacked near the end of spring training.

Nymr83 Dec 17 2005 01:03 PM

]This discussion from the start belongs in the "rest of the bullpen 2006" thread i thought you hated the thread police?

Elster88 Dec 17 2005 01:34 PM

There's a difference between being overtly like a thread policeman and in criticizing Mex. Every single thread Mex started has belonged in an already existing thread.