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Rehashing "I thought it was the ball"

Edgy DC Dec 30 2005 11:47 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 30 2005 12:01 PM

I don't want to hijack another thread. I'm rather certain that the "I thought it was the ball" part of Roger Clemens' explanation referred only to the part of the incident when he intitially reacted to the bat coming at him. I think that's probably true enough. The part where he loses me is his further explanation, that he was just trying to toss the bat out of play, and he was so keyed up that he threw it overhand. The lie is put to that just by realizing that the Mets dugout was on the third-base side. I think Clemens had been asked and asked and asked about bad blood stemming from the Piazza beaning so much that it got in his head, and he got a little paranoid, perhaps thinking with the scoundrel's logic that he was the victim in the all the hullabaloo. When he realized it was, in fact, the bat coming at him, I think he believed in an insane instant that Piazza either threw the bat at him, or (more insanely) intentionally broke the bat so as to shatter in his direction. I think he knew he was nuts the moment the bat left his hand, but rather than own up, he got back to the dugout and worked with Yankee brass on a cover story. Very Yankee. My villian in all this is (perhaps insanely on my part) Frank Robinson. He's in a box seat, in charge of discipline for the league. After the game, he levies a fine on Clemens far beyond that typically given to behavior that would have led to an ejection or even a suspension, but at the time he didn't see fit to instruct the umpires to eject him. I guess, realistically, that just doesn't happen. I doubt any of the umps really saw what happened live. Their eyes likely followed the ball, and they probably look down after a foul ball and play with their toes in the dirt. I imagine Valentine missed it live also. Had he really seen it at the moment, I imagine he'd have done something fun and crazy like pulling his team off the field.

DocTee Dec 30 2005 11:50 AM

I think David Wells was right-- some Met benchwarmer should've slapped Roger, getting both of them ejected. I'd take that trade anyday.

Elster88 Dec 30 2005 11:50 AM

I'll never forget Piazza's (lack of) reaction. All of a sudden seeing the bat pass in front of him must have been a shock at him. I always figured the ump was in front of him before it finally sunk in: "That moron actually just threw the bat at me?!" I would've preferred he did what my buddy Lou said he would've done if it was him. "I woulda taken the end of the bat still in my hand and rammed it down Clemens' throat."

Centerfield Dec 30 2005 11:55 AM

I agree with your analysis edgy, but I think the moment of clarity hit even before the bat left his hand. I think an amped up Clemens picked up the bat with every intention at throwing it back at Piazza, and then at somepoint while he is cocking to throw, realizes that a) it is a broken bat, Piazza is holding the handle, it is impossible for him to have done that on purpose, and b) I am about to look very foolish. If you look closely, he turns his eyes away from Piazza during his takeback and he ultimately throws the bat in front of him, rather than at him.

Elster88 Dec 30 2005 11:58 AM

Centerfield wrote: amped up Clemens I prefer the term "roid rage".

Edgy DC Dec 30 2005 12:03 PM

You may be right there that Clemens came to his senses, such as they are, in mid-pitch.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 30 2005 12:03 PM

My theory: Clemens was more hopped up on steroids and greenies than usual, and his macho jock posturing overtook him to the point where he'd lost his mind, throwing the bat as a means to express "you're nothin' punk" -- not necessarily throwing it AT Piazza, but threw it using the same combination of carelessness and aggression (i.e.: Poor sportsmanship) that might have caused an injury and easily caused an incident. I think his actions took everyone, from Piazza to the umpires to fans watching at home, so much by surprise that the few moments it took to process what happened probably saved his ass. He should have been thrown out, without a doubt.

Elster88 Dec 30 2005 12:07 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 30 2005 12:08 PM

That's exactly what I think. You'd think a bench clearing brawl would be automatic after someone throws a bat, but the shock factor probably slowed everyone's reactions. Odds of bench clearing brawls are probably lowered in WS games, too.

old original jb Dec 30 2005 12:07 PM It's very simple, really.

Bats, we don't throw.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 30 2005 12:09 PM

Clemens bad acting in the moments afterward -- asking for the ball back as if nothing happened and he can't understand why Piazza is coming at him at umpires are getting between them -- also suggest he shoulda got run then and there. If it was the mistake he purported it to be, then say so then. Don't pretend you hadn't just thrown a bat.

Centerfield Dec 30 2005 12:13 PM

That would take accountability and character and I think Asshead is lacking in both.

Elster88 Dec 30 2005 12:14 PM

What's the history of players being ejected in WS games? What about other playoff games?

Johnny Dickshot Dec 30 2005 12:22 PM

Well, for starters, there's this game: [url]http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B10100OAK1990.htm[/url]

Elster88 Dec 30 2005 12:33 PM

McGwire batting 6th in that game? Wow.

Frayed Knot Dec 30 2005 12:45 PM

Off the top of my head: Bal'mer mgr Earl Weaver in game 4 of the '69 WS - supposedly for a misunderstanding. Ump Shag Crawford said something along the lines of "I better not hear another word from you Earl" as he turned and walked away from what he thought was the end of an argument. Weaver, not hearing him according to some versions, followed him to ask what he just said. Crawford heard Weaver and turned to see him right behind him rather than heading back to the dugout and tossed his ass. The Shea crowd - including yours truly - got a big kick out of that one. Joaquin Andujar totally losing it in Game 7 of the '85 WS. Game 6 was the one in which Don Dekinger's blown call at 1st set up the Royals to tie the series at 3. Andujar didn't have it for the Cards in game 7 and didn't much much of a reason to get his Latin temper all over Denkinger now behind the plate. By the time the dust cleared, Andujar was in the shower and the Royals had something like a 10-0 lead.

Frayed Knot Dec 30 2005 12:48 PM

"After the game, he [Robinson] levies a fine on Clemens far beyond that typically given to behavior that would have led to an ejection or even a suspension, but at the time he didn't see fit to instruct the umpires to eject him." Don't think Robinson has that kind of power -- particularly not as the game is going on. The umps control the game and the league office can levy discipline above and beyond that after the fact, but it doesn't control the umps directly. Hell, at that time, almost no one controlled the umps, directly or otherwise.

Frayed Knot Dec 30 2005 12:58 PM

I think my favorite reaction at the time was the one where someone took the picture af Asshead in mid bat-toss - complete with full exertion, his teeth gritted and veins bulging out of his neck - and put one of his quotes underneath reading; "I was just flipping it to the bat boy" It's like he was trying out different quotes after the fact to see which one(s) sounded least ridiculous.

Edgy DC Dec 30 2005 12:59 PM

No doubt (in response to FK, two posts above), and that's why I preface and suffix my position by acknowledging it's a pretty unreasonable expectation. More reasonably would have had the penalty matching the fine by suspending him after the game for at least the next five games of the series.

MFS62 Dec 30 2005 01:11 PM

Regarding the early posts in this thread: Is it really possible for us to know what went on inside his head at that monent? As for the rest, concerning punishment, at the time it happened I would have voted for public disembowelment. Later

PatchyFogg Dec 30 2005 01:59 PM

I always loved Mike Hampton saying that he would have charged Clemens. You know, it's not like Mr. Good Schools wasn't on the mound to take care of things himself or anything.

Nymr83 Dec 30 2005 02:38 PM

LMAO @ "Mr. Good Schools" Clemens isn't the only one who can't tell the ball apart from other equipment, anyone remember a certain Jets game and Testaverde's helmet crossing the plane of the endzone?

Johnny Dickshot Dec 30 2005 03:22 PM

I never really warmed to Hampton despite a pretty good year overall ... but his performance in that game -- his last as a Met -- was absolutely pathetic and justified my every doubt in him. Guy tries to kill your best hitter for the 2nd time in 3 months and he goes out there and walks the whole goddamn lineup.

Nymr83 Dec 30 2005 05:25 PM

he should have gone beaning people not walking them, but this was 5 years ago and hampton, piazza, and clemens are no longer in NY so i don't care much anymore

Johnny Dickshot Dec 30 2005 05:53 PM

I'd have been satisfied with just throwing strikes. He had 2 out and nobody on then gave up 2 walks and 2 singles.

Rockin' Doc Jan 01 2006 03:59 PM

Elster - "McGwire batting 6th in that game? Wow." Hard to imagine a line up so stacked that has McGwire (even as a youngster) batting in the sixth slot. Then, imagine that in actuality he was hitting seventh in the line up that day. Only second baseman Willie Randolph and shortstop Mike Gallego batted after McGwire. I believe that Clemens may have initially thought that the shattered bat was indeed the ball when he fielded it, but he most certainly had to be aware that it was a broken bat by the time he was preparing to throw it. I believe he threw the bat shard in front of Piazza in a twisted attempt to intimidate Piazza and the rest of the Mets. Hampton had one truly great year in 1999 with the Astros and a solid follow up in 2000 with the Mets. He and his agent were able to parlay that into a lucrative longterm deal as a free agent. He has never again approached the level of success he had 1999 and 2000 since leaving New York. I doubt he will ever approach the form he had for those 2 years.