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Booing--Boo or Yay?

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 12:45 PM

Not a poll, just a place to discuss booing. My position is that, while I do very little outward emoting at the park, fans have every right to express themselves both positively and negatively, and I have no problem with them doing so (other than when I happen to disagree with them, of course.) A case in point would be Burnitz getting thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double during a game when the Mets had very little offense (possibly against Johan Santana a few years ago.) He got booed soundly and, I thoiught, completely unjustifiably: trying for second was a good play, he was barely thrown out, and he might even have been safe. No booing called for, and if they would have cheered him for his effort that would have marked the NY fans as being unusually perceptive. That example aside, I think there's altogether too much cheering of mediocre baseball, and not enough voicing of disapproval for bad baseball.

Nymr83 Dec 31 2005 01:02 PM

i paid for my ticket i can boo all i want. don't wanna get booed? don't get paid millions to play a game.

KC Dec 31 2005 01:44 PM

Generally speaking, I just don't boo the Mets. I've booed at Knicks and Jets games - for whatever reason, I can't remember the last time I booed a Met. I guess it's probably because I'm a mamsie pamsie orange and blue bleeding don't know an OPS from an AVG boneheaded unable to win circuitous and nonsensical arguments not-to-mention silly gooseheaded debates over baseball toughness and ability etc etc etc and so on. I don't care what other fans do and frankly I'm a little sick and tired of being judged on my baseball fandom. So there.

Elster88 Dec 31 2005 02:23 PM

Nymr83 wrote: i paid for my ticket i can boo all i want. don't wanna get booed? don't get paid millions to play a game. And people wonder why Matsui only hits .225 in America... And they complain when Bonilla wears earplugs.... And they wonder why Johnny Damon doesn't give a flying fuck about Red Sox fans and switches teams...

Iubitul Dec 31 2005 03:18 PM

I don't boo results. I only boo what I perceive to be a continual lack of effort. I remember the year Bobby Bonilla came back - The first weekend in April, he was playing on a banged up knee that would have put most people on DL, but he wa splaying because Piazza was already on DL. There was a guy spewing such epithets at Bonilla, one would have thought that Bonilla had murdered the guy's entire family....

old original jb Dec 31 2005 03:33 PM What I taught my daughter:

Mets, Yay. Yankees, Boo! It's just that simple.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 31 2005 03:38 PM

I tend not to boo unless I feel that a player is morally reprehensible or that he's otherwise being a jerk. When I do boo, it's only a boo - there's no excuse for some of the names and other abusive language that some people use.

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 03:50 PM Wherein Bret inquires about specifics...

Lubital--does this mean you disagree with J. Dickshot, Esq., who maintains as I understand him, that booing should be reserved for immediate play and not for players generally? That is, you should (according to my understanding of Dickshot's Law) boo Matsui for kicking a grounder into leftfield just now, but not boo him because he's displayed a lack of effort for the past few months. jb--is this just my country right or wrong, my mother drunk or sober? Is there behavior (that you've seen yourself) from a Met where you would approve of booing, or is it that the blue-and-orange protects every Met from your disapproval? Scarlett--care to provide some examples of moral reprehensibilty or jerkdom? Either hypothetical or actual will do, though I'd prefer to see practical past instances.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 31 2005 03:59 PM

I'm trying to recall whether I've had the opportunity to boo Clemens, but he'd be boo-worthy. I'm sure I would have booed Pete Rose post-1973 NLCS. I do recall booing Doug Sisk, even though it was for suckitude rather than jerkdome. Since about 20 years have passed since then, I think that I can consider that past behavior. I'm sure there are other instances, but they're not coming to mind right now.

seawolf17 Dec 31 2005 04:04 PM

When something happens that you like, you're allowed to react. Why can't you react when something happens that you don't like?

Nymr83 Dec 31 2005 04:09 PM

Elster88 wrote: ="Nymr83"]i paid for my ticket i can boo all i want. don't wanna get booed? don't get paid millions to play a game. And people wonder why Matsui only hits .225 in America... And they complain when Bonilla wears earplugs.... And they wonder why Johnny Damon doesn't give a flying fuck about Red Sox fans and switches teams... because he sucks and it was a bad decision to give him all that money i dont complain, he's free to wear earmuffs for all i care i dont wonder that either, its his life and anyone who says they wouldn't take the huge payday themself is a liar.

Nymr83 Dec 31 2005 04:12 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: When I do boo, it's only a boo - there's no excuse for some of the names and other abusive language that some people use. i agree, abusive language is uncalled for, there are plenty of kids around which should stop you even if it was otherwise called for.

DocTee Dec 31 2005 04:19 PM

As Homer Simpson once said to a ballpark patron who objected to his antics: , "Paying admission gives me the right-- no, the responsibility-- to act like an ass." (or words to that effect).

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 04:20 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: Since about 20 years have passed since then, I think that I can consider that past behavior. So are you pleading that the statute of limitations applies here? Booing Sisk for being Sisk is wrong, and you disapprove, but you were young and foolish? Or booing Sisk for being Sisk is something you might do today if Sisk somehow appeared on the mound again? (Don't laugh--he's the same age as Julio Franco.)

ScarletKnight41 Dec 31 2005 04:43 PM

I'm saying that I can refine/change my viewpoint two decades later. Most of us grow up a bit in that kind of a time span.

KC Dec 31 2005 04:47 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 31 2005 04:50 PM

A thousand apologies ... I left out un-met-maven-like and un-caustic-fucktard in the rant above. Happy Holidays.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 31 2005 04:49 PM

KC wrote: A thousand apologies ... I left out un-met-maven like and un-caustic-fucktard in the rant above. Happy Holidays. There you go Kase - using this fine thread in order to attack Christmas!

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 04:58 PM

KC wrote: A thousand apologies ... I left out un-met-maven-like and un-caustic-fucktard in the rant above. Happy Holidays. I took those for granted. A tip o' the old fucktard cap to yuz on this cheeriest of holidays, with all good wishes for the New Year!

Elster88 Dec 31 2005 05:04 PM

]because he sucks *sigh* I refuse to explain again.

Zvon Dec 31 2005 05:26 PM

Booing is a good thing and should be a form of expression for a fan. As opposed to, say,.....yelling at Heilman and calling him Hitler. Im an even keel fan. If I really feel moved to do it, whether the reason may be justified or not, Ill boo. Sometimes Ill boo for a laugh. But I reserve my boo's for when I really feel like expressing that sentiment, and I dont boo-along ( jump on any boo wagon). One of the things that gets me is most times when you see a loud mouth insult whining booer in the section around you, doin his/her thing when he/she feels its appropriate, that same person does not seem to be cheering after the home team smacks one out or something really good happens. That should tell ya something. Speaks volumes about that persons demeanor.

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 06:08 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: I'm saying that I can refine/change my viewpoint two decades later. Most of us grow up a bit in that kind of a time span. Not looking to attack, Scarlet, just looking for clarity. Do you disapprove of booing Sisk now? Was booing a stage you needed to experience so as to assume your present stage of enlightenment? Or a much regretted phase of your immature and now-despised self on whom you look back with astonishment and shame?

metsmarathon Dec 31 2005 06:09 PM

i've got a problem when players are booed based primarily on poor/past results, high salary, and/or sweatiness. if a guy's trying, he shouldn't get booed, usually.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 31 2005 06:21 PM

Attack? Who said anything about attack? Honestly, I can't recall enough about the mid-80's to properly answer your question. I remember perceiving that he sucked beyond reasonable limits of suckitude, and that I hated seeing him come into games. Aside from that, I'm not wasting any mental energy on worrying about it. It's not that I "self-despise" my younger self. I just don't have the time, energy or interest to worry about it. There's enough on my plate in the here and now to keep me busy - I don't have the need to self-analyze why I did what I did 20 years ago.

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 06:26 PM

OK, mm, my man, let's look at at the scandal that was Haywood Sullivan--the former Sox GM who gave his son Marc the backup catcher's job (behind Fisk) for several seasons http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sullima02.shtml . Here was blatant nepotism in action, worse than Mike Glavine because more extended. Now Marc may have been trying his damnedest, but I'd have given him a boo, I think, as a way of registering my disapproval of his being permitted to play MLB without the qualifications. (I probably would have booed Mike Glavine, if I'd been at the game he started.) Would you have? Would you have booed Sullivan if you were a non-Sox fan? A Sox fan? A human being? Any animate life-form? Why or why not?

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 06:30 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: Attack? Who said anything about attack?. You just sounded a tad defensive, is all. ScarletKnight41 wrote: I don't have the need to self-analyze why I did what I did 20 years ago. The unexamined life is not worth living.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 31 2005 06:35 PM

True, but if I'm going to examine my life, there are way more compelling aspects of it other than why I booed a sucky relief pitcher half of my life ago.

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 06:42 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: True, but if I'm going to examine my life, there are way more compelling aspects of it other than why I booed a sucky relief pitcher half of my life ago. Damn. I was hoping to lure you into a debate, you vs. me and my pal Socrates.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 31 2005 06:52 PM

Nah - I'm not in the mood for a debate. I'm way more focused on the fact that I just got all dolled up, I have a kick-ass garlic appetizer in the oven, and in a little while I'm off to spend New Year's Eve with loved ones and good friends. Socrates can wait. Hope it's a good year for you, as well as for everyone in the Pool!

SwitchHitter Dec 31 2005 07:14 PM

I don't boo players or other team members wearing my laundry. Even if I hate them. Even if they get picked off third for the final out of an inning. Even if they lose track of the number of outs. And especially not for making errors or getting thrown out at 2B trying to stretch or trying to steal. I know I'm in the minority. Jimy Williams was booed at the 2004 ASG by a largely Astros-fan crowd. Much as I thought he sucked, I don't think he deserved to be booed on national TV. Even if the only reason he hadn't already been fired was because of his selection as an assistant coach in the ASG. .

Zvon Dec 31 2005 07:21 PM

i think when youve paid a certain amount of dues to a team, you should boo when you feel the need. ^ I dont see how this kid could have paid those dues yet ^ ;)

metsmarathon Dec 31 2005 08:48 PM

i think i've booed in the past, tho i cannot recall the exact circumstances. i actually was at the mike glavine game. i'm pretty sure i didn't boo, but i've no idea if his continued participation in metly games would have ultimately driven me to do so. certainly, my booing would not have caused him to perform better. it may, however, have served the purpose, if indeed i had chosen to boo, of conveying to management my displeasure in such a shitty player/personnel decision. so, i think that booing to express displeasure in gross player or management incompetence is perfectly fine. booing to express displeasure in a particularly bad effort or mistake, also perfectly fine. booing because a player takes the field despite his not living up to our collective (and often lofty) expectations, as some means of conveying a desire for the player to perform better... well, i'm not so sure that's all too effective, and therefore i'm typically disagree with it. why is it most players perform better at home as compared to on the road? because they feel the home crowd supports them. someone cheering for you often leads you to relax, play looser, think less about what your doing and just do it, and ultimately, those are all things that lead to better, more mistake-free play (in general). put a player in a hostile environment, and he's no longer playing loose. he's playing tight. trying too hard in many cases. it leads to poor decisions, slow reactions, and less reliance on instinct. its very similar to what happens to a player in a slump. they start examining everything they do, and try hard to do those things better. now, if you're booing a guy who's just not trying hard, then sure, i've no problem. but if you're booing a guy who's already trying to perform well, but just isnt getting results, then you're dooming him to, often, even worse performance.

Bret Sabermetric Dec 31 2005 09:09 PM

metsmarathon wrote: why is it most players perform better at home as compared to on the road? This is actually an interesting and complex question worthy of its own thread.

metsmarathon Dec 31 2005 10:15 PM

true. and i've oversimplified. a supportive crowd is but one of many factors that would tend to bring about better performance and/or results in a home stadium. regardless, it is my belief that a supportive crowd brings out better performance and/or results in players than does a hostile crowd, thereby rendering booing as potentially detrimental to player performance and championship aspirations.

Nymr83 Jan 01 2006 07:23 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="metsmarathon"]why is it most players perform better at home as compared to on the road? This is actually an interesting and complex question worthy of its own thread. living at home instead of in a hotel room may help with their sleep at the very least. i would HOPE that part of the answer is somewhere along the lines of "GMs know how their ballpark plays for different types of hitters and they aquire those guys who typically do well there"

Johnny Dickshot Jan 01 2006 11:22 AM

Baseball is a hard game full of failure. Just about any hitter would tell you that in order to succeed they have to put just about all distractions behind and concentrate on the moment. The least we can do as "fans" is give them their moment without introducing a negative judgement on that opportunity first. Let them have their moment. Have your say afterward if you like. It's a little of out context to apply my thoughts on fans who boo Matsui when he's announced (as expressed in the other thread) to an overall "Dickshot's Law on Booing" as it's being called here. I don't make the rules, and I don't necessarily want to. That said, in my opinion, fans who justify any and all booing by remarking "He gets paid millions to play a game, tough shit," and/or "Booing is the only way to let management know we disagreed with something management did months ago," or "I paid my money I can act like a jackass if I so choose" are mooks who embarrass me and make fools of themselves, and possibly, interfere with a player's ability to get the best result in his moment. Seems like, they often think too highly of their own influence (assuming as they do that the player or manager they target is too dense to understand fans are generally dissatisfied with poor results) or perhaps, don't think much at all (The "fans who boo when guys are announced" and "fans who don't understand what the fuck is going on anyhow" demographics index pretty closely at Shea in my unscientific observations).

Yancy Street Gang Jan 01 2006 12:06 PM

Well said, Johnny. If a guy gets caught napping on the basepaths, or fumbles an easy grounder that lets a key run score, then I can understand groans and boos. But booing a player every time his name is announced is nothing more than lunkhead behavior. Millionaires are no less deserving of courtesy and respect than people who are living paycheck to paycheck.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 01 2006 12:09 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: they often think too highly of their own influence (assuming as they do that the player or manager they target is too dense to understand fans are generally dissatisfied with poor results). And would you say that people who cheer and do that cuckold's-horn-in-mouth-whistle-thing assume that the player or manager is too dense to understand otherwise that the fans appreciate the good results?

Johnny Dickshot Jan 01 2006 12:57 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 01 2006 02:40 PM

]And would you say that people who cheer and do that cuckold's-horn-in-mouth-whistle-thing assume that the player or manager is too dense to understand otherwise that the fans appreciate the good results? No. I don't feel cheering and booing are necessarily opposites of one another. The opposite of whistling and cheering is sitting on your hands, or perhaps, staying at home.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 01 2006 01:54 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 01 2006 02:11 PM

Interesting. Those are my two chief techniques, clapping and silence. And some cheering. My three chief techniques are... But you realize that the logic you're applying isn't necessarily dependent on your somewhat convenient definitions, right? I can't really see BV standing on the dugout steps going, "They just love my double-switching Timo in the game and Mando. Willya LISTEN to them, they're going nuts, yes, BV, you lovable little genius you..." and also interpreting the lower decibel level when Mando surrenders the HR blast: "Hmmmm, I perceive the fans are saying with their eloquent silence how heartily they disapprove of my putting Mando in the game at this point. Yes, surely, if they were willing to forgive my impetuous and daring move, far fewer fans would be so utterly and censoriously quiet--I estimate that it must be fully 34 to 37 %, perhaps 38% who are saying nothing at this moment, as opposed to the usual 12 to 20 % percent of completely mute and still fans at big Shea. This is a heavy burden for me to bear, and I will think hard and penitantly in my lonely room tonight..." OE: I was having too much fun there writing BV's soliloquies and forgot to get to my point: you say that cheering and booing are not opposites, as if there can be only two possible responses to a game. But of course they are two opposed ways of reacting. Silence is a third. Staing home watching on TV is a fourth. Devoting your life to clanging a cowbell around the stadium for three hours eighty times a year is a fifth... But if you mean to suggest there's some kind of point or purpose to cheering and clapping, that it's intended in part to encourage or congratulate or reward players, then why not extend that privilege to booing? If you think the fans who boo are deluding themselves into thinking their rude sounds have any effect on the players, then 1) why would it bother you? and 2) why would you think that cheering has the opposite effect? I'm not looking for an argument, as much as a discussion. Instead of defending our own behavior, or putting down those mooks who behave otherwise, I'd rather try to understand booing, why it happens, when it's okay, when it's wrong or rude, etc.

Johnny Dickshot Jan 01 2006 02:03 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 01 2006 02:06 PM

I dunno. Isn't applause generally accepted customary civil polite encouragement typical of a partisan crowd? There is a difference between polite applause, no applause, and Todd Zeile doubles in 3 runs in Game 4 of the NLCS style cheers. Edit -- as I said before I generally wouldn't have a huge issue hearing boos after the closer gives up the game-ending HR, and I might even make one myself. What I disapprove of is booing him before he gets the chance next time solely for that reason.

metsmarathon Jan 01 2006 02:04 PM

you seem to forget that one of the reasons we cheer is to convey the message "gosh, i hope you do well!" in the case of a timo double switch, you could still be cheering to root on the mets as a team, to indicate your desire for the move to work out for the better, despite whatever misgivings we may as fans have. the opposite of this message, to boo, is "gosh i hope you fail miserably" surely, you would expect the stands at a home game to be more filled with those who would wish well for their team, than those who would not.

KC Jan 01 2006 02:08 PM

root root root for the home team if the don't win it's a shame Learned it early in life, still live by it.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 01 2006 02:28 PM

You know I'm with you on this whole Mando thing--the self-perpetuating cycle of abuse, etc.--but let's focus on booing the manager for putting a tired closer in the game who gives up the game-emding HR. They boo, you're cool with that. But some fans might think "Everybody was booing Looper tonight, but Willie basically got off scot-free and I blame him much more than Looper. Actually, I blame --uh, who was the GM who signed Looper? Duquette? Steve Phillips? Joe McDonald? Anyway, I want to boo him but how do I do that? Maybe I'll take a day off work, and come to Shea and boo the administrative offices. or maybe it'll be easier to boo Willie when he comes out to exchange lineup cards tomorrow. Yeah, that's the ticket. I'll come out the Shea, boo WIllie who'll probably understand why I'm booing him at the start of tomorrow's game, I hope, and then I'll head down to the bullpen to cheer Looper to compensate for those boos he got tonight. Then I should probably write a nasty note to Minaya telling him I hope he doesn't sign any sucky closers but to tell Duquette or whoever Boooo for me, and then I'll write on a messageboard some foul twisted abusive stuff about the Mets front office." No, I think the Booos that Mando gets next game are some attempt to express all of that, and maybe more. I don't like it or approve of it, but I don't think it's just pure and brainless scapegoating of Mando, either.

Johnny Dickshot Jan 01 2006 02:38 PM

In the case you've created, sure. More often though, the type of lunkhead booing we see at Shea are fans booing Matsui when he approaches the plate with Reyes on first and none out. He hits a groundball out to the right side, advancing Reyes to second, and gets booed off the field anyway. The next night, the crowd cheers for Cairo upon his announcement, and when he flies out to left, leaving Reyes on first, they sit on their hands.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 01 2006 02:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 02 2006 06:29 AM

Those are some abused puppies you're talking about there. As soon as you pick up a newspaper to read it, they're running away from you, dripping urine on the carpet. They need help.

Elster88 Jan 01 2006 10:54 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: That said, in my opinion, fans who justify any and all booing by remarking "He gets paid millions to play a game, tough shit," and/or "Booing is the only way to let management know we disagreed with something management did months ago," or "I paid my money I can act like a jackass if I so choose" are mooks who embarrass me and make fools of themselves, and possibly, interfere with a player's ability to get the best result in his moment. Seems like, they often think too highly of their own influence (assuming as they do that the player or manager they target is too dense to understand fans are generally dissatisfied with poor results) or perhaps, don't think much at all (The "fans who boo when guys are announced" and "fans who don't understand what the fuck is going on anyhow" demographics index pretty closely at Shea in my unscientific observations). Perfectly said. There's also a lot of hidden self-loathing in the "they get paid millions, I bought a ticket, so I'll boo them if I want" excuse. Maybe people feel better about themselves if they can boo someone who they feel undeservedly makes more money then them. ](The "fans who boo when guys are announced" and "fans who don't understand what the fuck is going on anyhow" demographics index pretty closely at Shea in my unscientific observations). Also closely linked with the demographics of people who post "MATSUI SUCKS!!!!" or "I HATE LOOPER!!!" on a message board.

Frayed Knot Jan 02 2006 12:39 AM

"Actually, I blame -- uh, who was the GM who signed Looper?" Was the acquisition of Looper a bad move worth booing during the '04 season when he was good, or just during '05 when he wasn't?

Rockin' Doc Jan 02 2006 07:55 AM

Personally, I tend to boo for what I perceive as a lack of effort, not a lack of results. I may not like a physical error or misplay, but I can accept it. A lack of effort or a perceivied lack of caring is inexcusable. Just as in my business, I can live with an employee making a mistake from time to time, we'll fix it and try to make sure they understand what they did wrong. However, if an employee doesn't put forth proper effort or doesn't seem to care about the quality of their work, then they will soon be working elsewhere.

silverdsl Jan 02 2006 04:38 PM

I've only heckled/booed one player ever and that was Chuck Knoblauch who I thought had a very poor attitude at times towards playing for the Yankees who were more than tolerant of his throwing issues and wasn't always too cool towards some of the fans, including some of his most supportive fans. Now I don't think I would ever boo another player no matter how much I disliked them, and believe me there have been some players that I really can't stand or who I've thought are playing pretty poor baseball. My feeling about booing these days is that the players don't need to the fans to tell them when they're not playing well and my personal feelings about liking or disliking particular players are pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Even though I don't boo myself I respect someone else's right to boo if they want to. However, it bothers me when some fans start to boo or heckle players or the team very early on like in the first inning for perceived suckiness when the outcome of the game is still completely up in the air and the players have barely gotten a chance to do anything positive or negative yet. Even worse are the fans who insist on screaming vulgar remarks at the top of their lungs at the players and I find it particularly irksome when they are screaming those things at players on their own team. No one has to like everyone who plays for their team but expressing their dislike in such a vile manner makes it hard for the fans around them to enjoy the game.

rpackrat Jan 03 2006 01:56 PM

I can think of very few times when I have booed a player. I only boo for lack of effort or for some particularly egregious conduct or remark (I still boo Hampton for his "good schools" comment: You want to chase the last dollar, that's your privilege, but don't insult my intelligence). If a player appears to be giving it his all but not getting results, I see no point in booing. The guy knows he's batting .180 or has an ERA of 6, he just can't do anything else about it and booing won't change that.